Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So we've got a lot of threads talking about this but primarily we all (myself included) focus on the negative (I'm not saying it's unjustified).

So lets see if there are any ways to counter this nonsense?

I assume a normal (ish) list contains between 10 and 30 bikes (in some combination of squad size) that have been upgraded to have either scatter lasers or shuriken cannons, because they're not exactly a burden on the list.
This is about 270 - 810 points in troops, which i personally think is about right for even a pick up game; ignoring hyper competitive players/lists for the time being.

In a vacuum for a minute:
10 bikes with SL has 40 shots, with SC 30 shots
SL 26.4 hits, SC 19.8 hits

T4 or less
SL 21.9 wounds, SC 16.4 wounds about 3 of which are rending

Saves
5+ SL 3.7 saves 18.2 unsaved, SC 16.4 dead
4+ SL 10.9 saves, 10.9 unsaved, SC 3 dead, 6.7 saved, 6.7 unsaved
3+ SL 14.5 saves, 7.4 unsaved, SC 3 dead, 8.8 saved, 5.8 unsaved
2+ SL 18.2 saves, 3.7 unsaved, SC 3 dead, 11.1 saved, 2.3 unsaved

So this is the figures for one 10 man squad in perfect conditions (assuming the math isn't wrong)

5+ tend to be squads of 20-30
4+ tends to be squads of 10-20
3+ tends to be squads of 5-10
2+ tends to be squads of 1-5

Is there anything that can survive this at each level?

What is the best course of retaliation.

5 Sicarans, Scorpius with Prescience and Battle of Keylek all inside a Void Shield Generator. Furiosos in Drop Pods with Fragcannon + Heavy Flamer.

Invisible Grimoire Hatred Flesh Hounds. Psychic Shriek -spam from the skies.

Invisible bikers with Smashfether and a lot of grav.

Canoptek Harvest -spam.

Sicarians, Land Raiders (particularly the Redeemer, very 'feth-off-and-die-Jetbikes' sort of unit), Invisibility, Flyer-spam, any way to close to melee, Krieger Basilisks that can receive an Ignores Cover order. I don't foresee the death of the game coming from the new Jetbikes.

Anyone knows how to play against them with IG, without using FW?

Wherever you park those 40 jetbikes somewhere, it's gonna be crowded. These aren't 25mm bases.

270 points per squad of 10 is expensive, and they die fast if you hit them. Or they jink, and those 40 shots become effectively 6.7 shots -- max.

1 BA drop pod with 3 plasma templates (130 points) will force a jink -- and you're going to kill some of those jetbikes. Maybe even 4 or more of them, and then you've paid for your ASM. And they have to hang around to mop you up.

Fragioso in a drop pod is a threat. Heavy flamer will eat them up.

Flyers will threaten them pretty well.

As Runic says, Sicarans.

I don't see someone with 810 points in jetbikes winning an 1850 point tournament.

What will be a bigger threat is if you can effectively toughen them up for not a lot of points. We'll have to see what the Eldar Psychic abilities are now, and look at the rest of the codex.

Makumba wrote:
Anyone knows how to play against them with IG, without using FW?

Difficult. FW makes IG vastly better. Standard Russes get you affordable AP3 large blasts that the Jetbikes can't easily outrange and can't damage from the front, park some of those behind an ADL and bombard away?

Well, I'd take some pie plates since jetbike units have a rather large footprint.

 Talys wrote:

1 BA drop pod with 3 plasma templates (130 points) will force a jink

What are these plasma templates you speak of brother?

I'm currently imagining S7 AP2 flamers on an assault squad, enlighten me.

Mawlocs deliver the pie plates. And since they and Sicarans are already mainstays of certain high quality lists in their respective armies, We might be surprised what comes of it.

Hellstorm still seems like the way to go for me though. Scythed Heirodule is too many points for me to be comfortable with, and a statline similar to the current Wraithknight... I think that's a pass, but the Malcador Infernus still catches my eye. Are there other Hellstorm Templates in the 200-300 point bracket?

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Mawlocs deliver the pie plates. And since they and Sicarans are already mainstays of certain high quality lists in their respective armies, We might be surprised what comes of it.

Hellstorm still seems like the way to go for me though. Scythed Heirodule is too many points for me to be comfortable with, and a statline similar to the current Wraithknight... I think that's a pass, but the Malcador Infernus still catches my eye. Are there other Hellstorm Templates in the 200-300 point bracket?

Lynx is 400ish, it's a bit of a risk with 11 all round but ETHF and buffs from Farseers can help. Typhon is a 10/1 Ignores Cover 7" Blast for under four hundred points, a Brass Scorpion is pretty expensive but if you can get enough Cursed Earth castings up to keep it alive (2++ keeps anything safe from scatter lasters) it's got ten S6/AP3 shots, an Ignores Cover large blast, two flamestorm cannons, and the speed and assault potential to catch the Jetbikes.

Makumba wrote:
Anyone knows how to play against them with IG, without using FW?

Forgive me if I’m wrong. I have only had 1 game of 7th but, isn’t Jink a normal cover save? If so:
-Torrent heavy flamers.
-Masses of normal flamers (If you can get them in range).
-Nova Cannon.
-Orders (Fire on my target) on a blob

If I knew I was going up against an Eldar Jet bike list. I would take some of the above.
Cheers Vim

 vim_the_good wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Anyone knows how to play against them with IG, without using FW?

Forgive me if I’m wrong. I have only had 1 game of 7th but, isn’t Jink a normal cover save? If so:
-Torrent heavy flamers.
-Masses of normal flamers (If you can get them in range).
-Nova Cannon.
-Orders (Fire on my target) on a blob

If I knew I was going up against an Eldar Jet bike list. I would take some of the above.
Cheers Vim

Jetbikes have a 3+ armor save.
Thus jink is not always necessary, say in case of heavy flamers.

Forgive me but.. Jetbikes hit flyers on 6 es?
Would Play them with my tau...6 barracudas.. Ignores cover...

 winterwind85 wrote:
Forgive me but.. Jetbikes hit flyers on 6 es?
Would Play them with my tau...6 barracudas.. Ignores cover...

Yeah but you can get a lot of shots out, so they will hit flyers fairly often probably. And you still have other anti air stuff in the dex.

Which doesn't get through the natural 3+ Armor. And 160 shots hitting on 6s and needing 5s to glance a 2 HP unit means that that unit isn't the solution either.

That Typhon looks good. A direct counter to the Bikes while the rest of the army focuses on the things that can kill the Typhon. That could work very nicely and for a modest amount of points.

A single squad of scatter-bikes will knock 2 HP off an AV11 flyer on average.

That said, unless those flyers are packing enough heat to kill off a majority of the jetbikes throughout the game (I.E. Flyrants), as the Eldar player I'd just ignore them. They're ObjSec, so once you wipe out all opposition on the ground, it just becomes a matter of racking up objective points with relative impunity.

 Talys wrote:

I don't see someone with 810 points in jetbikes winning an 1850 point tournament.

Plenty of lists with 810 points of DA and wave serpents won tournaments. The difference is, these bikes are slightly better for the points than the serpents and the wraith units backing the serpents up before didn't have D weapons. Oh and now we get a formation bonus. I think lists with 25-30 bikes are going to dominate tournaments. Anything that can counter the bikes costs more and will be shredded by D weapons. Any list built specifically to counter the bikes is going to struggle against a lot of other lists, where 25-30 bikes and a couple jetseers backed up by ranged D struggles against nothing.

Lists with Sicarans hardly limit themselves against other lists. 5 Sicarans will shred the bikes off the table easily and they cost 875 points total if you give them Lascannons ( which in turn, can deal with other threats after the bikes have been turned into mince meat. ) Those D weapons can also be taken out ( and we don't know yet if Wraithguard have normal D or something lesser, period. ) 12" D doesn't scare anyone with a competitive list, if they're in transports those transports can be taken out and I'll be surprised if the WS is as durable as it was before. You can then add a Scorpius as the icing on the cake ( or the Typhon, but I think the Scorpius is better for it's points. )

Next to that putting Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent with D -weaponry is most likely going to be expensive.

Necrons with Wraiths and Daemons with skyborne Psychic Shriek spam and Flesh Hounds buffed to ridiculousness isn't going to struggle against other lists while walking over the bikes.

And last but not least, we'll see how and what will get banned/limited in tournaments in general:

http://natfka.blogspot.fi/2015/04/eldar-itc-and-dirty-d-keep-calm-and.html

Judging by this article, there will be no spamming full strength ranged D - it will be toned down one way or another ( should it even be obtainable to beginwith, as mentioned before. )

What about allied DE?

WWP Wraithguard will seriously mess up the Sicarans.

How much is 20-30 bikes with Scatter Lasers, the allied DE detachment with WWP and the Wraithguard with the D weapons ( if again, they even get normal D ) going to cost?

But on Space Marines, I'd say Gravcannon Centurions with Red Hunters -chapter tactics. You can also give a single Sicaran Interceptor if you want to certainty.

Deep Striking within 24" you say? Well, remove your unit from the table now, thanks.

Standard tactics of drown them in ranged wounds should still be viable. i understand that there are limitations due to speed of the bikes but forcing them to jink will help.

What's 48"+ with AP3?

These are some possible suggestions.

Outflankers might be useful.

DA might actually (surprisingly) be quite effective against them.
Div Librarian with Prescience 65 points
Command Squad with 5 flamers in pod 160 points (I dont know if someone could work out roughly how many bikes you can cover with a flamer)
or 190 with 5 plasmaguns.
or 5 vehicle Landspeeder typhoon squads

Marine options
5 Devastators with plasma cannons, heavy bolters or missile launchers. They're only 110 - 150 points.
Thunderfire cannons.
Drop pods with massed plasma/grav/flamers (i.e. command squads)
Drop pods in general.
LSS with scouts

Tau options include:
Firewarriors in a devilfish (if lucky with an ethereal).
Riptide with IA will force them to jink.
Hammerhead with Ion Cannon will force them to jink.
Farsight with plasma suits with buff suit (not buff commander)
Crisis suits with missile pods
Farsight enclave riptide with HBC
Skyray
Massed kroot infiltrating (if going first)

D-weapons are a red herring, imo, something that people keep getting caught up in. It's a fair point that we have no idea how much D-weapon Eldar units will cost, and frankly why do Eldar even need D-weapons? Short of titans and titan-level units, what vehicle in the game is there that can tank a round of shooting from 8 Fire Dragons in a WWP raider? I can't think of many, and it's likely that the Dragons will be a hell of a lot cheaper than the Wraithguard.

What about this list?

Dark Angels CAD2
Librarian 65pts
Librarian 65pts

Command Squad 5x plasmaguns in drop pod 210pts
Command Squad 5x plasmaguns in drop pod 210pts

Scouts Snipers Camo (5) 70
Tactical (5) Meltagun, droppod 115pts

Dark Angels CAD1
Librarian 65pts
Librarian 65pts

Command Squad 5x flamers in drop pod 160pts
Command Squad 5x meltas in drop pod 180pts

Scouts Snipers Camo (5) 70
Tactical (5) Meltagun, droppod 115pts

Assaut Squad (5) 2 flamers, combi-flamer drop pod 105 points

1500

Fire Raptors might be a way to go as well. If you can keep in ruins for a consistent 4+, it takes 72 scatter-laser shots at BS4 to knock 1 HP off of it. Meanwhile, one Fire Raptor is killing 5 jinking jetbikes a turn. Taking two costs less than 500 points, and you can neuter 2 jetbike squads a turn with just the two of them.

Meanwhile, being a flyer will protect from it from the worst of deep-striking shenanigans.

EDIT- And I agree that Sicarans are an excellent choice. How are you getting more than one though? Aren't they relics?

Thunderfires, stormcannon array, Conversion beamer, Skyhammer missiles, skyspear missiles, stormstrike missiles, whirlwind launcher, missiles and lascannons are the only weapons with 48" range or better while only the beemer, krak/stormstrike missiles and lascannon can force them to jink.

Given that jet bikes are troops and their 40 shots per squad is going to delete 7 marines a turn, even if they don't jink and you take out 2 or 3, the remaining 7 or 8 are going to shred your entire dev squad in a single round. Pods will cause them to jink, then relocate, buying you a round but not achieving anything unless you bring copious amounts of pods with lots of specials (ie, more than you could reasonably fit).

Firewarriors are only 30" range, add 6 more for devilfish disembark and you're still 12" short, so the bikes will get to pop the fish and then stay out of range of the warriors and mow them down next turn. Riptide is going to die to wraithknights with heavy wraithcannons but is an option until then, hammerheads are in the same boat, but allow you to fill another slot with an answer for a couple of turns that is immune to the jetbikes from the front. Farsightbomb could work since you can targetlock into multiple squads, though will be highly dependant on reserve manipulation and enemy placement. Crisis aren't fast enough to get into range, even with pods. Skyray is an alternate option but takes the same slot as the ionhead.

"I don't know about you, but I am planning to scream and run."

-Ben Jabituya: Short Circuit.

 Runic wrote:
Lists with Sicarans hardly limit themselves against other lists. 5 Sicarans will shred the bikes off the table easily and they cost 875 points total if you give them Lascannons ( which in turn, can deal with other threats after the bikes have been turned into mince meat. ) Those D weapons can also be taken out ( and we don't know yet if Wraithguard have normal D or something lesser, period. ) 12" D doesn't scare anyone with a competitive list, if they're in transports those transports can be taken out and I'll be surprised if the WS is as durable as it was before. You can then add a Scorpius as the icing on the cake ( or the Typhon, but I think the Scorpius is better for it's points. )

Next to that putting Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent with D -weaponry is most likely going to be expensive.

Necrons with Wraiths and Daemons with skyborne Psychic Shriek spam and Flesh Hounds buffed to ridiculousness isn't going to struggle against other lists while walking over the bikes.

And last but not least, we'll see how and what will get banned/limited in tournaments in general:

http://natfka.blogspot.fi/2015/04/eldar-itc-and-dirty-d-keep-calm-and.html

Judging by this article, there will be no spamming full strength ranged D - it will be toned down one way or another ( should it even be obtainable to beginwith, as mentioned before. )

Daemons also have alongside Psy Shriek + Lash flying Princes & buffed Hounds, the likes of;

- Buffed Seekers led by Challenge Heralds, who themselves can take Lv2 Telepathy for guaranteed Psy Shriek + a shot at Invis.

- Flamer bombing

- Screamers who can turbo boost as well and inflict auto-hits for passing over units... and can also bring along Lv3 Div Tzherald(s) on a Disk for further buffing, up to and including bringing back the re-rolled 2++ shenanigans.

- Lv3 Divination LoC rocking 2x Greater Gifts and likely odds of Precog.

- Soul Grinders w/Torrent shot or pie plate of ap3.


Not really seeing where Daemons are suddenly scared of Jetbike spam... I'm still much more concerned with combating Wave Serpents honestly.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

EDIT- And I agree that Sicarans are an excellent choice. How are you getting more than one though? Aren't they relics?

By taking a Master of Relics for loyalists or a Technomancer for CSM. There is more than that to the rules and they can be found in the respective FW books. You can, however, wield 6 Sicarans if you want.

A Master of the Forge with Astral Phantom / Red Hunters -chapter tactics and a Conversion Beamer is actually a usable cheap HQ.

Broken forge world units is the only way. Beginning to understand GW now.

Sicaran isn't a broken unit, but it's good and slightly undercosted.

And even if it were, when you are facing a broken non-forgeworld unit to beginwith, then what does it matter?

FW books have better balanced units than the standard codices do.