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 Runic wrote:
Sicaran isn't a broken unit, but it's good and slightly undercosted.

And even if it were, when you are facing a broken non-forgeworld unit to beginwith, then what does it matter?

FW books have better balanced units than the standard codices do.

Broken, OP, undercosted = not balanced. They all mean the same thing. FW might be balanced with itself but it's not balanced with 40k codex. Though 40k codex are become less and less balanced with themselves it seems - I've never seen anything as dumb as an army that can field 60 fast/mobile long range heavy weapons on troop selection. It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen in this game. This kinda stuff is common in 30k and forge world though. IMO it's ruing the game. I'm actually considering selling all my stuff right now. I wonder how many others are too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Runic wrote:
Sicaran isn't a broken unit, but it's good and slightly undercosted.

And even if it were, when you are facing a broken non-forgeworld unit to beginwith, then what does it matter?

FW books have better balanced units than the standard codices do.

Broken, OP, undercosted = not balanced. They all mean the same thing. FW might be balanced with itself but it's not balanced with 40k codex. Though 40k codex are become less and less balanced with themselves it seems - I've never seen anything as dumb as an army that can field 60 fast/mobile long range heavy weapons on troop selection. It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen in this game. This kinda stuff is common in 30k and forge world though. IMO it's ruing the game. I'm actually considering selling all my stuff right now. I wonder how many others are too.

I don't know, I think Warp Quake was vastly more broken & stupid, considering you could outright stop an entire army from ever being allowed to put even a single model on the table...

Not to mention how it gakked all over every single Deep Strike unit and pretty much removed an entire deployment tactic from the game.

Super fast troops with heavy weapons and D-weapons everywhere.
Only by taking other broken units and many of them can you avoid being tabled early in the game.

This is the kind of escalation that's ruining the game.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Super fast troops with heavy weapons and D-weapons everywhere.
Only by taking other broken units and many of them can you avoid being tabled early in the game.

This is the kind of escalation that's ruining the game.

Well said.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Runic wrote:
Sicaran isn't a broken unit, but it's good and slightly undercosted.

And even if it were, when you are facing a broken non-forgeworld unit to beginwith, then what does it matter?

FW books have better balanced units than the standard codices do.

Broken, OP, undercosted = not balanced. They all mean the same thing. FW might be balanced with itself but it's not balanced with 40k codex. Though 40k codex are become less and less balanced with themselves it seems - I've never seen anything as dumb as an army that can field 60 fast/mobile long range heavy weapons on troop selection. It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen in this game. This kinda stuff is common in 30k and forge world though. IMO it's ruing the game. I'm actually considering selling all my stuff right now. I wonder how many others are too.

I don't know, I think Warp Quake was vastly more broken & stupid, considering you could outright stop an entire army from ever being allowed to put even a single model on the table...

Not to mention how it gakked all over every single Deep Strike unit and pretty much removed an entire deployment tactic from the game.

Warp Quake was fine...what are you talking about...the game needs more protections agaist deep strike suicide squads - not less. warp quake was actually one of the less broken spells the greyknights had in 5th - yeah it came standard on a 20 point trooper thats easily killed by a 15 point plasma gun? thats broken? Theres also no way that warpquake could prevent you from placing your army - you always had the option to not deploy via deep strike. It was a counter to deep strike - thats not really a big deal - just deep strike into your own deployment zone or don't deploy by deep strike.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Super fast troops with heavy weapons and D-weapons everywhere.
Only by taking other broken units and many of them can you avoid being tabled early in the game.

This is the kind of escalation that's ruining the game.

See, I have trouble with this train of thought. Relate it to a popular TCG, such as MTG. They have to have a semblance of power creep, otherwise people stop purchasing new sets. You're old 2/3 flyer for 3 mana is now outclassed by a 3/3 flyer for 3 mana. This ensures that Wizards will bring in a profit from year to year, instead of having most (*not all, since a lot of people play standard/modern) players sit on their old tried and true decks.

I know this is not a perfect analogy, but it reminds me that GW is first and foremost a business that needs to bring profits to the owners/shareholders. If lists never changed and newer units were not powerful, there would be little to no reason to buy them. In example with the jetbikes, GW releases new models to replace old jetbikes. Who would be buying up loads of new models if not for updated rules to make them more alluring?

Obviously whats above is just my opinion on the matter, though I'm curious what others think about it.

You don't need power creep to be successful. Just keep making lateral choices that are all equally viable.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Super fast troops with heavy weapons and D-weapons everywhere.
Only by taking other broken units and many of them can you avoid being tabled early in the game.

This is the kind of escalation that's ruining the game.

Oh man, so much snark potential...

Just now ruining?

Not far to fall!

Anywho, a smart Eldar player will tally all your weaponry capable of effectively firing at the Jetbikes that breaks armor. Unless it's threat critical, just don't jink, lose a few, and keep killing.

And if FW is the answer, more so Red Cheaters, then you know anyone not invested at that level is boned.

The new plasma obliterator with Vindicare, dominions or some other method of Ignore Cover.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't need power creep to be successful. Just keep making lateral choices that are all equally viable.

That's a good point, more akin to side-grades in a lot of F2P games. Of course there will always be competitive players who min-max and find the best builds in any game. Though avoiding the competitive scene is an easy solution.

I think Dakka tends to lean towards the competitive edge at times, nothing wrong with it, but it makes it look like the 40K community is represented in this frame. Where realistically GW probably pulls a lot of their sales from collectors/casual gamers/kids.

 clamclaw wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't need power creep to be successful. Just keep making lateral choices that are all equally viable.

That's a good point, more akin to side-grades in a lot of F2P games. Of course there will always be competitive players who min-max and find the best builds in any game. Though avoiding the competitive scene is an easy solution.

I think Dakka tends to lean towards the competitive edge at times, nothing wrong with it, but it makes it look like the 40K community is represented in this frame. Where realistically GW probably pulls a lot of their sales from collectors/casual gamers/kids.

If all new choices are lateral, then it works for competition as well.

 clamclaw wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't need power creep to be successful. Just keep making lateral choices that are all equally viable.

That's a good point, more akin to side-grades in a lot of F2P games. Of course there will always be competitive players who min-max and find the best builds in any game. Though avoiding the competitive scene is an easy solution.

I think Dakka tends to lean towards the competitive edge at times, nothing wrong with it, but it makes it look like the 40K community is represented in this frame. Where realistically GW probably pulls a lot of their sales from collectors/casual gamers/kids.

Can't be kids. Too expensive.

Can't be collectors. Too many extremely expensive rules updates in books with recycled and crappier fluff (what I've only heard second hand).

Has to be gamers. Although even GW doesn't know because they do no market research. What we do know is that the past few years have been the highest volume of releases in decades with an ever dropping total sales and revenue, even discounting cutting all middle management, shutting down international divisions, and factoring out their blunder of a lawsuit.

So something tells me the the game slowly going into the toilet has a connection to GW going into the toilet. Can't tell which one is the chicken or the egg in this scenario, though.

This book is just another example of casual gamers would be better served by another game as folks are flat out saying the answer is just don't play against Eldar or Necrons, like it's those players fault for liking the armies.

The only way to truly win is not to play.

Martel732 wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't need power creep to be successful. Just keep making lateral choices that are all equally viable.

That's a good point, more akin to side-grades in a lot of F2P games. Of course there will always be competitive players who min-max and find the best builds in any game. Though avoiding the competitive scene is an easy solution.

I think Dakka tends to lean towards the competitive edge at times, nothing wrong with it, but it makes it look like the 40K community is represented in this frame. Where realistically GW probably pulls a lot of their sales from collectors/casual gamers/kids.

If all new choices are lateral, then it works for competition as well.

Though maintaining a large variety of models and keeping a *perfect* balance is next to impossible. Internal and external balancing between codex's have so many moving parts. It would be super easy to create perfect balance if all models were T4 and shot 24" S4 guns. But what fun would that be? My point is there will always be a unit that is slightly better than an alternative. How much better? It would be great if it was a minuscule difference.

I agree the new jetbike rules look bogus and way out of balance. Though I'm reserving my judgement until I can see them on the table a few times.

 clamclaw wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Super fast troops with heavy weapons and D-weapons everywhere.
Only by taking other broken units and many of them can you avoid being tabled early in the game.

This is the kind of escalation that's ruining the game.

See, I have trouble with this train of thought. Relate it to a popular TCG, such as MTG. They have to have a semblance of power creep, otherwise people stop purchasing new sets. You're old 2/3 flyer for 3 mana is now outclassed by a 3/3 flyer for 3 mana. This ensures that Wizards will bring in a profit from year to year, instead of having most (*not all, since a lot of people play standard/modern) players sit on their old tried and true decks.

I know this is not a perfect analogy, but it reminds me that GW is first and foremost a business that needs to bring profits to the owners/shareholders. If lists never changed and newer units were not powerful, there would be little to no reason to buy them. In example with the jetbikes, GW releases new models to replace old jetbikes. Who would be buying up loads of new models if not for updated rules to make them more alluring?

Obviously whats above is just my opinion on the matter, though I'm curious what others think about it.

Magics competitive scene resets every core - there is no power creep - in fact it's pretty well balanced by a simple rule - you can only play 1 mana a turn and cards are pretty well balanced by their costs. OFC only the good cards can actually compete but all the good cards are pretty well balanced by mana.

In terms of magic. These new jetbikes would be like card 1 cost 2/2 flyer that can tap to deal 2 damage to target creature or player with all the other 1 cost flyers were 1/1 with no abilities. This card would literally be so powerful it would have to be in every deck or you'd basically auto lose.

Knight Acheron. Giant, flamestorm template, S6 AP3. Jink all you want suckers. bwahahahahaha

 Xenomancers wrote:

Broken, OP, undercosted = not balanced. They all mean the same thing.

I don't consider broken and undercosted the same.

Can't fathom how people can keep up this cycle. The cycle of being amazed and making noise on the forums when something new and powerful comes along that will destroy the world ( sure it will. ) It's been happening for decades. Ah well, time to wait for it to die in a few months along with the "list that beats all others and you can't do anything about it inside my vacuum of doom, which I created before the Codex is out by the way, also, I quit" ...


... again, for the eighty-ninth time.

I am very hopeful that all this doom and gloom regarding this change will cause some cheap models to show up on Ebay. I need me some new toys!

I just added a Heldrake to my Daemonkin army to keep jetbikes under control.

 Runic wrote:

 Talys wrote:

1 BA drop pod with 3 plasma templates (130 points) will force a jink

What are these plasma templates you speak of brother?

I'm currently imagining S7 AP2 flamers on an assault squad, enlighten me.

BA Assault squad of 5 can take 2 plasma guns or plasma pistols (15 points each), and the sergeant can take combi-plasma for 10 point or plasma pistol for 15 points.

Or, you could go 2xflamer at 5 points a piece + 1x combi-flamer... or 2x hand flamer.. etc.

I think that specifically for large jetbike squads, the plasma is more effective than flamers.

By the way, I think that BA Assault pods is a better deal than command squads, because you tie up less points, and you need odd-numbered pods (ie 3, 5, 7) depending on how many you want to drop. Plus, the actual pod is valuable as a threat afterwards. Or it can hog an objective on their side.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Super fast troops with heavy weapons and D-weapons everywhere.
Only by taking other broken units and many of them can you avoid being tabled early in the game.

This is the kind of escalation that's ruining the game.

I would hardly call a 125 or so point assault squad in a drop pod a broken unit. But seriously, man, you already quit the game and hate both 40k and GW -- you already think that the game is ruined It really didn't matter what GW put into the Eldar Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Magics competitive scene resets every core - there is no power creep - in fact it's pretty well balanced by a simple rule - you can only play 1 mana a turn and cards are pretty well balanced by their costs. OFC only the good cards can actually compete but all the good cards are pretty well balanced by mana.

In terms of magic. These new jetbikes would be like card 1 cost 2/2 flyer that can tap to deal 2 damage to target creature or player with all the other 1 cost flyers were 1/1 with no abilities. This card would literally be so powerful it would have to be in every deck or you'd basically auto lose.

I don't know what Magic game you're playing. Tell you what -- if you think that good cards are balanced by mana, restrict yourself to just common cards, and let's have a go

In the decades that MtG has been out there have been sooooo many unbalancing cards that "ruined" the game.... the fact that they ban them afterwards is neither here nor there. They were playable at some point, and people go and sometimes pay a lot of money to acquire them.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Broken, OP, undercosted = not balanced. They all mean the same thing. FW might be balanced with itself but it's not balanced with 40k codex. Though 40k codex are become less and less balanced with themselves it seems - I've never seen anything as dumb as an army that can field 60 fast/mobile long range heavy weapons on troop selection. It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen in this game. This kinda stuff is common in 30k and forge world though. IMO it's ruing the game. I'm actually considering selling all my stuff right now. I wonder how many others are too.

FW is better balanced with 40k than three quarters of what GW pumps out. If you were to start listing off the silliest things in the game I'm guessing one 40k-legal FW unit in the top ten, the rest are all in GW Codexes.

As to the comparison to MTG the problem is that an individual 40k unit is a lot more work (to buy, build, convert, paint, et cetera) and people get a lot more emotionally attached to it than I've ever seen anyone getting to an individual Magic card. GW may want to run an evolving-meta style game where what's good is cyclic, but people who play miniatures wargames want to buy an army and have that army remain playable after they poured six months into building and painting everything.

There's already two threads drowning in people whining. Can we atleast have ONE thread about serious thought and trying, as a community, to come up with a net solution? If you don't play the game, don't have input, don't want to do anything but cry, there's already places to do that. Who gives a toss what MTG does. I'm not going to throw a Darksteel Colussus at my opponent's Eldar.

 clamclaw wrote:

Though maintaining a large variety of models and keeping a *perfect* balance is next to impossible. Internal and external balancing between codex's have so many moving parts. It would be super easy to create perfect balance if all models were T4 and shot 24" S4 guns. But what fun would that be? My point is there will always be a unit that is slightly better than an alternative. How much better? It would be great if it was a minuscule difference.

Infinity seems to manage a fun and well-balanced game in which every gun is identical across faction lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
There's already two threads drowning in people whining. Can we atleast have ONE thread about serious thought and trying, as a community, to come up with a net solution? If you don't play the game, don't have input, don't want to do anything but cry, there's already places to do that. Who gives a toss what MTG does. I'm not going to throw a Darksteel Colussus at my opponent's Eldar.

I should try that next game. Drop Gisela on the table and claim that I'm taking half wounds (rounded down!) from all my opponent's attacks.

In all seriousness if you want to fight Jetbikes find a way to toss volume of AP3- and AP3- Ignores Cover down the table, play fast and get them in melee, or run AV14 or Flyers. They're powerful, they're annoying, but they're not going to auto-win by themselves.

Centurion-bomb them. You wound on a 3+ and go right through their armor. Take that psyker that will allow them to ignore cover and they can't even jink against it; you will probably wipe out a squad entirely with a single barrage. That's -40 shots per turn. You are now well on your way to solving said problem.

What's that? You're not playing Space Marines?
Well, the only other races in the game besides Eldar and Space Marines are Necrons and Tau, right?

Necrons just ignore the shooting and go about their business. 120 shots means about 80 hits. If you are shooting at warriors, that's 66 or 67 wounds. They save half of them. So 33 or 34 wounds. Then the save, what, 19 or 20? Not 100% sure how the math works out when they are rerolling 1s on their 4+ "frack you" non-save after their armor save. But let's say 13 or 14 wounds get through. Congratulations; you have just failed to kill a single full unit of Necron Warriors with 120 shots at S6 AP6. Alternately, 120 shots killed ONE MINIMUM SIZED UNIT. It gets worse if you are shooting at anything that is tougher or has a better save.

Tau ignore cover anyways, so just hose them down with AP3 shots and laugh.

I believe that covers every possible race's matchup.

 Runic wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Broken, OP, undercosted = not balanced. They all mean the same thing.

I don't consider broken and undercosted the same.

Can't fathom how people can keep up this cycle. The cycle of being amazed and making noise on the forums when something new and powerful comes along that will destroy the world ( sure it will. ) It's been happening for decades. Ah well, time to wait for it to die in a few months along with the "list that beats all others and you can't do anything about it inside my vacuum of doom, which I created before the Codex is out by the way, also, I quit" ...


... again, for the eighty-ninth time.

Alright man - you're right - we are overreacting and we have seen this all before. I can't wait for my 240 point marine squads with 10 missile launchers. This is gonna be grand.

10 Missile Launchers is so 2012. I want 10 Assault Cannons.

 kronk wrote:
10 Missile Launchers is so 2012. I want 10 Assault Cannons.

Meh, I want my 10 BSS with 10 Exorcist Launchers for 240.

Armor and/or massed fire. They're only T4 with a 3+ save. If you have trouble killing that, then your army's got bigger issues. They're a hell of an alpha strike unit though.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Armor and/or massed fire. They're only T4 with a 3+ save. If you have trouble killing that, then your army's got bigger issues. They're a hell of an alpha strike unit though.

Well, some might say that it's not just the bikes but the 800+ pts of gargantuan creature and d-weapon toting forces that accompany the bikes. Alone, they're not scary, combined with a plethora of d shooting..... Granted, all we know about right now are the bikes so we'll have to wait and see how the other rumors pan out.

Tau XV109 Y’vahra Battlesuit - This thing can chase them around the board (can move like a FMC every other turn and ignores all saves(if it has markerlight support)
w/ FNP - 265pts
WS2 BS4 S6 T6 W4 I2 A3 Ld9 Sv2+ / 5++ Invulnerable save, increasing to 4++ against any attacks originating from within 12" of the Y’vahra battlesuit or in close combat. Nova charge to 3++ against close combat attacks. 5+++FNP

Phased plasma-flamer
- Single canister Torrent (6") 6 3 Heavy 1, Torrent (6")
- Full rotation Torrent (6") 6 2 Heavy 2, Torrent (6"), Gets Hot
Torrent (6"): As Torrent, but the template is placed within 6" of the firing model rather than 12".

Ionic Discharge Cannon
Range Str AP Type
12" 8 3 Heavy 3, Blind, Haywire Burst(n/a for this exercise) - Nova charge to The ionic discharge cannon is treated as Heavy 3+D3 for the duration of this effect.

Flechette Dispersal Pods - modified vector strike when this thing lands after moving link a swooping FMC
Range Str AP Type
6" 4 5 Assault D6, Shred

 Brother SRM wrote:
Armor and/or massed fire. They're only T4 with a 3+ save. If you have trouble killing that, then your army's got bigger issues. They're a hell of an alpha strike unit though.

How are you getting "massed fire" on units that are 40+'' away, have a 48'' threat range and can move 2D6'' after shooting?

Also, since Fire Prisms can be taken in squadrons now, and their attacks gain +1 str/-1 AP for each Prism in the squadron, doesn't that mean taking two gives you a 60'' ranged strength 7 AP2 large blast (or a 60'' strength 10 AP1 lance)?