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I know there are plenty of posts on the jetbikes atm, but I wanted to highlight a specific point.

People are saying that we don't know it is broken until we see the codex. That is absolute tripe as we can take things we do know due to the allied system. We don't need to know further eldar units at all.

This also highlights the issue of people saying that jetbikes are not going to be great against av13/14 spam, whilst they conveniently ignore that the bikes leave plenty of points left over for AT.

I did not want this point to get lost in pages and pages of discussion on other threads as this is specific.

Ok at 1850pts:

Primary: IKs

Knight Paladin (Warlord for 3++ shield)

Knight Errant

Knight Errant

2nd detachment:

Autarch with jetbike

3 jetbikes with SL

3 jetbikes with SL

3 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL (in units of 3's and 5's rather than 6 4's to benefit 25% ld check on units of 5).

1848pts
If autarch on jb is no longer 85pts you can always drop a jb.

What are you going to do against that completely legal list?

Yes 3 knights is OP, that doesn't however prevent jbs going with 3 IKs in an army, so arguments of IK formations being too strong do not help an argument against this.

The jbs themselves put out 96 st6 shots and can sit at 36" range whilst the knights advance. Want to get in range of the jbs with normal guns? Then you have to get in range of the knights. Want to shoot the jetbikes with long range guns? Then what are you going to shoot the knights with? Want to pod into assault range of 3 IKs? You sure? Want to invest in lots of large ap3 blasts to make the bikes jink or lots of shredding blasts from wyverns? What you going to hurt 3 knights with? Want to mass swarm? Good luck against 96st 6 shots, 2 st8 ap3 large blasts, 2 st8 ap1 large blasts and all the stomps, as well as any super heavy explosions.

If that's not broken, what is?

This is not just an army list, this is not just tactics against jbs, this is a discussion on the complete broken nature of them, highlighted by the list, hence being in discussions.

Also worth noting that rumour has it that the new D weapon gargantuan wraithknights are rumoured to be cheaper than IKs and able to be taken in multiples so it is very possible that pure Eldar may be able to do this even better when the dex drops.

Potentially even better, just take an Adamantine Lance instead of the basic Knight detachment.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Potentially even better, just take an Adamantine Lance instead of the basic Knight detachment.

Wish I knew the rules for it. I just have the WD and am aware that you can take 3 in a formation with a 3++ on the shielding for warlord. I've heard all over the place that the Adamantine Lance is silly powerful though.

The Adlance is 3 knights that get to reroll their 4++ when near each other, inflict D3 HoW hits instead of 1, and reroll charge distances.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Adlance is 3 knights that get to reroll their 4++ when near each other, inflict D3 HoW hits instead of 1, and reroll charge distances.

For the same points? That's crazy advantage. I'd heard of the 4++ reroll but extra HoW and reroll charge takes it to a silly level.

Yup, zero additional points.

Forging a narrative.

2 malcador infernus and 2 shadowswords, if we're going unbound

Considering how quick the other posts are being updated, I'm guessing no apologists are up to the challenge. Guess they'll just ignore it like ignoring all the other points raised about jetbikes.
Only Talys seems to have been actually considering all the points against jetbikes in the other threads so far. All the other apologists either say 'we don't know the dex yet', 'play better', or 'x, y, z is worse' (despite the obvious points shown against this) and just completely ignore anything said.
I don't like the fact that i'm not allowed to complain, in their eyes, about something that I've invested thousands and thousands of pounds in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shigematsu wrote:
2 malcador infernus and 2 shadowswords, if we're going unbound

I was making a tournament legal list. But yeh - unbound can counter anything you like.

There's also the group pimping the drop pod solution.

Martel732 wrote:
There's also the group pimping the drop pod solution.

The drop pod solution clearly doesn't work - I've demonstrated to them TWICE that 30 sternguard (arguably the best pod counter unit) dropping wipe out 13 jetbikes and the reamaining jetbikes wipe out 2 whole sternguard squads exactly on average, with the rest of the eldar list being able to focus on the remaining unit and pods before the rest of their force even arrives. But been completely ignored because it doesn't fit the image of all the sand around that hole of theirs.

Hmm, what's the detachment limit?

Easy!

3x Wraithknights and use the points saved to get even more Windriders.

WKs murder IKs, and I have more Jetbikes than you.

See? Your paltry Jetbikes lose when confronted with other Jetbikes.

The game's totes balanced. L2P scrublord.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Forging a narrative.

It really is. Its forging the narrative so well, of bugger off space elves

I would say two. BUT since some tournaments now allow unlimited, go for however many you like. Also remember if this can be taken in tournaments, you're going to want to make sure you can take on as much variety of lists as possible. You can make a counter for just the above list if you like, and whilst that would be impressive, I'd be even more impressed (astounded even) if you made it TAC. FW allowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thud wrote:
Easy!

3x Wraithknights and use the points saved to get even more Windriders.

WKs murder IKs, and I have more Jetbikes than you.

See? Your paltry Jetbikes lose when confronted with other Jetbikes.

The game's totes balanced. L2P scrublord.

Lol - the irony of the situation is ridiculous isn't it? The only thing that would shine out as better than the above, is the above made pure eldar.

I say only thing... we may be surprised yet.

I'm no Necron expert, but I'd imagine that Decruion 'Crons could tackle a Knights + MSU Kraftworld Bikes list pretty well.

As far as my Daemons are concerned... The Jetbikes themselves wouldn't worry me at all. Between the ability to bring FMC's toting 2D6/S6 shots + Psy Shirek OR 2+ jink saves w/Psy Shriek, Screamers who can be built into a re-rolled 2++ if super gouda is being allowed, Invisible Hounds or Seekers led by filthy Challenge Heralds w/more Psy Shireks, Flamer bombing...
Hell, a single Tzherald on Disc in a unit of Screamers can feth-up an MSU Jetbike unit pretty easily with Flickering Fire for 3D6/S5 shots at BS4! Don't need that many shots when there's only 3-4 T4/3+ saves in a unit... Turbo Boost the unit and if the Eldar player isn't careful, between Screamer slashes + FF, I could likely bag 2 MSU squads/turn. (while bubble-wrapping the Tzherald with likely re-rolled 2++ save Screamers)

The problems for Daemons would be the Knights, since we really don't have any decent counters outside of allies, (and I don't have the IA13 rules, so while I'm sure the newest Traitor/Renegade stuff could do it, I'll admit to ignorance here...)

The new Str.D Bloodthirster might appear a decent counter on paper, but he's always hitting at I1, so even if you buffed him out full tilt with Forewarning + Grimoire, all a Knight needs a single 6 to-wound and he's toast... Mind you, if he lives, he'll definitely go apegak all over that Knight!
A pair of Insensate Rage 'Thirsters might have a shot at dragging down a Knight or two though?

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know there are plenty of posts on the jetbikes atm, but I wanted to highlight a specific point.

People are saying that we don't know it is broken until we see the codex. That is absolute tripe as we can take things we do know due to the allied system. We don't need to know further eldar units at all.

This also highlights the issue of people saying that jetbikes are not going to be great against av13/14 spam, whilst they conveniently ignore that the bikes leave plenty of points left over for AT.

I did not want this point to get lost in pages and pages of discussion on other threads as this is specific.

Ok at 1850pts:

Primary: IKs

Knight Paladin (Warlord for 3++ shield)

Knight Errant

Knight Errant

2nd detachment:

Autarch with jetbike

3 jetbikes with SL

3 jetbikes with SL

3 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL (in units of 3's and 5's rather than 6 4's to benefit 25% ld check on units of 5).

1848pts
If autarch on jb is no longer 85pts you can always drop a jb.

What are you going to do against that completely legal list?

Yes 3 knights is OP, that doesn't however prevent jbs going with 3 IKs in an army, so arguments of IK formations being too strong do not help an argument against this.

The jbs themselves put out 96 st6 shots and can sit at 36" range whilst the knights advance. Want to get in range of the jbs with normal guns? Then you have to get in range of the knights. Want to shoot the jetbikes with long range guns? Then what are you going to shoot the knights with? Want to pod into assault range of 3 IKs? You sure? Want to invest in lots of large ap3 blasts to make the bikes jink or lots of shredding blasts from wyverns? What you going to hurt 3 knights with? Want to mass swarm? Good luck against 96st 6 shots, 2 st8 ap3 large blasts, 2 st8 ap1 large blasts and all the stomps, as well as any super heavy explosions.

If that's not broken, what is?

This is not just an army list, this is not just tactics against jbs, this is a discussion on the complete broken nature of them, highlighted by the list, hence being in discussions.

Also worth noting that rumour has it that the new D weapon gargantuan wraithknights are rumoured to be cheaper than IKs and able to be taken in multiples so it is very possible that pure Eldar may be able to do this even better when the dex drops.

Here's my plan to beat that list:

WYSIWYG, no proxies. I don't know anyone that owns that many bikes and since (IIRC), Scatter Lasers are a new weapon for them, I hope they enjoy spending almost $300 for their new bikes.

Show us a list so we can see what you would be taking in total.

One thing I have to query is how are you getting the WC to be casting so many invis, psy shrieks and flickering fires when you have to spend points on something to take the knights down with? Also what is the range of flickering fire again? My deamon dex is at home. If it is 24" then you are unlikely to be getting in range until having suffered one, if not 2 rounds of fire (depending on who goes first).
Also a psychic power with 3D6 st5 shots at bs4 causes less than 2 casualties on average.
Also remember stomps don't care about invis on your screamers.
IA:13 can supply you with rapier weapons batteries for 70pts with militia training for 3 bs3 tl st9 ap1 shots at 36". That is probably your best Knight counter, but if playing Adamantine Lance as Vaktathi suggested, only 25% of glances/pens will be getting through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Newtype Zero wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know there are plenty of posts on the jetbikes atm, but I wanted to highlight a specific point.

People are saying that we don't know it is broken until we see the codex. That is absolute tripe as we can take things we do know due to the allied system. We don't need to know further eldar units at all.

This also highlights the issue of people saying that jetbikes are not going to be great against av13/14 spam, whilst they conveniently ignore that the bikes leave plenty of points left over for AT.

I did not want this point to get lost in pages and pages of discussion on other threads as this is specific.

Ok at 1850pts:

Primary: IKs

Knight Paladin (Warlord for 3++ shield)

Knight Errant

Knight Errant

2nd detachment:

Autarch with jetbike

3 jetbikes with SL

3 jetbikes with SL

3 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL (in units of 3's and 5's rather than 6 4's to benefit 25% ld check on units of 5).

1848pts
If autarch on jb is no longer 85pts you can always drop a jb.

What are you going to do against that completely legal list?

Yes 3 knights is OP, that doesn't however prevent jbs going with 3 IKs in an army, so arguments of IK formations being too strong do not help an argument against this.

The jbs themselves put out 96 st6 shots and can sit at 36" range whilst the knights advance. Want to get in range of the jbs with normal guns? Then you have to get in range of the knights. Want to shoot the jetbikes with long range guns? Then what are you going to shoot the knights with? Want to pod into assault range of 3 IKs? You sure? Want to invest in lots of large ap3 blasts to make the bikes jink or lots of shredding blasts from wyverns? What you going to hurt 3 knights with? Want to mass swarm? Good luck against 96st 6 shots, 2 st8 ap3 large blasts, 2 st8 ap1 large blasts and all the stomps, as well as any super heavy explosions.

If that's not broken, what is?

This is not just an army list, this is not just tactics against jbs, this is a discussion on the complete broken nature of them, highlighted by the list, hence being in discussions.

Also worth noting that rumour has it that the new D weapon gargantuan wraithknights are rumoured to be cheaper than IKs and able to be taken in multiples so it is very possible that pure Eldar may be able to do this even better when the dex drops.

Here's my plan to beat that list:

WYSIWYG, no proxies. I don't know anyone that owns that many bikes and since (IIRC), Scatter Lasers are a new weapon for them, I hope they enjoy spending almost $300 for their new bikes.

So that proves jetbikes aren't broken how?
Also - a lot of eldar players ALREADY own 20+ jetbikes. If you play WYSIWYG on weapons then fair enough, they just have to buy/convert 24 scatter lasers.

I'm not going to spend the time to reply to the "how to beat" thing, but clearly, jetbikes + IK are not the ultimate list. Among other things, you can't hit flyers.

However: the WYSIWYG thing is a terrible argument.

Scatterbikes cost $41 for 81 points -- or $0.50 per point. That's not at all expensive for models. If you really want to play 40k and are unwilling to pay $0.50 per point, you'll won't be able to field a "real" army, outside of a expensive, low model-count armies.

If you say, "I want to play scatterbikes but I'm not willing to buy the models" -- then, well, you're not really a serious 40k player That's no different from the guy who wants to proxy a Wraithknight with Megatron.

Jetbikes can hit flyers just fine.

Its not hard to produce a number of hits from dozens of scatter lasers.

16 st6 hits against flyers on average. Not many flyers which can do serious damage to 3 knights, 24 jetbikes and an autarch whilst leaving enough points on the table to avoid their ground forces being tabled.

Yeah... 8 bikes are putting out 40 shots, which is netting 7 hits on a flyer.

The only flyers that will last against scatter-bikes is AV12.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Show us a list so we can see what you would be taking in total.

One thing I have to query is how are you getting the WC to be casting so many invis, psy shrieks and flickering fires when you have to spend points on something to take the knights down with? Also what is the range of flickering fire again? My deamon dex is at home. If it is 24" then you are unlikely to be getting in range until having suffered one, if not 2 rounds of fire (depending on who goes first).
Also a psychic power with 3D6 st5 shots at bs4 causes less than 2 casualties on average.
Also remember stomps don't care about invis on your screamers.
IA:13 can supply you with rapier weapons batteries for 70pts with militia training for 3 bs3 tl st9 ap1 shots at 36". That is probably your best Knight counter, but if playing Adamantine Lance as Vaktathi suggested, only 25% of glances/pens will be getting through.

Obviously I wouldn't have 100% of *everything* listed... For one, you'd probably take either Hounds OR Seekers, with Seekers being the clear cut better option due to how filthy-good Slaany Challenge Heralds are, plus the ability to gain Telepathy powers. (and a bucket of Rending attacks that will make Orks burn with jealousy!)

Likewise, I'd only bring a Tzherald *IF* adding in Screamers. On a Disc, getting his Flickering Fire into range of Jetbikes is a non-issue - my own unit are also jetbikes and can turbo boost into threat range. (alongside the added slashing attacks) Even on purely average rolls, 2 kills from Flickering Fire is still 50% of a 4 man unit, with 33% chance of killing one or both of the remaining dudes through Warpflame. (and if not, then they're taking a Ld8 moral check)
If I had to aim at a larger 10 man unit? Thank Tzeentch for Prescience and the ability to gain a 61% shot at Misfortune! (though that full combo is likely most/all WC's for a phase)

If as a Daemon list I don't have WC's to cast the 2-3 super critical powers I need in a turn, then either I'm terrible at list building, or I'm playing a freaking Khorne army! MSU Horrors are only 99pts for 2WC's afterall... Lv3 Disc Tzherald w/Grimoire is IIRC only 140pts... I don't have Warp Charge problems! (unlike Eldar. )

Honestly, I probably wouldn't send the Screamers after a Knight, unless I was *really* desperate, as it's simply not a decent risk vs. reward option... Outside of building up the, (utterly broken as feth!), re-rolled 2++, a Knight will laugh at 9/S5 average WS Armourbane attacks.
Hence why if going the close combat route, I'd leave the 305pts LoC at home, and bring the 300pts Insensate Rage Bloodthirster and gamble on Str.D of my own.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Considering how quick the other posts are being updated, I'm guessing no apologists are up to the challenge. Guess they'll just ignore it like ignoring all the other points raised about jetbikes.

You don't seem interested in a discussion. I can't speak for EVERYONE who's perfectl fine with the new jetbikes, but I'm not engaging because you don't seem like you want discourse; you seem like you just want to vent about how hypothetically bad you think it's going to get, and how unfair you think the new rules you've never seen in a real life situation are.

Someone once said that you should only enter into an intellectual discussion about a topic if you respect the other side enough to give them the opportunity to change your mind. You clearly don't respect the opposing viewpoint enough for that, so it might be a better use of your time to walk away. (It would certainly introduce less negativity into your life.)

In any event, I'm sorry you dislike the new rules. I hope it doesn't wind up being as bad as you predict.

Do you think the Jetbike rules are reasonable?

Newtype Zero wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I know there are plenty of posts on the jetbikes atm, but I wanted to highlight a specific point.

People are saying that we don't know it is broken until we see the codex. That is absolute tripe as we can take things we do know due to the allied system. We don't need to know further eldar units at all.

This also highlights the issue of people saying that jetbikes are not going to be great against av13/14 spam, whilst they conveniently ignore that the bikes leave plenty of points left over for AT.

I did not want this point to get lost in pages and pages of discussion on other threads as this is specific.

Ok at 1850pts:

Primary: IKs

Knight Paladin (Warlord for 3++ shield)

Knight Errant

Knight Errant

2nd detachment:

Autarch with jetbike

3 jetbikes with SL

3 jetbikes with SL

3 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL

5 jetbikes with SL (in units of 3's and 5's rather than 6 4's to benefit 25% ld check on units of 5).

1848pts
If autarch on jb is no longer 85pts you can always drop a jb.

What are you going to do against that completely legal list?

Yes 3 knights is OP, that doesn't however prevent jbs going with 3 IKs in an army, so arguments of IK formations being too strong do not help an argument against this.

The jbs themselves put out 96 st6 shots and can sit at 36" range whilst the knights advance. Want to get in range of the jbs with normal guns? Then you have to get in range of the knights. Want to shoot the jetbikes with long range guns? Then what are you going to shoot the knights with? Want to pod into assault range of 3 IKs? You sure? Want to invest in lots of large ap3 blasts to make the bikes jink or lots of shredding blasts from wyverns? What you going to hurt 3 knights with? Want to mass swarm? Good luck against 96st 6 shots, 2 st8 ap3 large blasts, 2 st8 ap1 large blasts and all the stomps, as well as any super heavy explosions.

If that's not broken, what is?

This is not just an army list, this is not just tactics against jbs, this is a discussion on the complete broken nature of them, highlighted by the list, hence being in discussions.

Also worth noting that rumour has it that the new D weapon gargantuan wraithknights are rumoured to be cheaper than IKs and able to be taken in multiples so it is very possible that pure Eldar may be able to do this even better when the dex drops.

Here's my plan to beat that list:

WYSIWYG, no proxies. I don't know anyone that owns that many bikes and since (IIRC), Scatter Lasers are a new weapon for them, I hope they enjoy spending almost $300 for their new bikes.

Because $300 is such an insane amount to spend on GW, right? I spend more than that going to 1 football game. Just the rules are $135, you guys are acting like $300 is $3,000. Everyone in my local group spends $100 a month minimum, $200-300 when new releases for their army drop.

Jimsolo. If you look above you will see that me and Experiment 626 are having a discussion about this. If you read it you will also see that I have suggested a certain unit to help in a list to be built against the knights. If you look above that you will see I have engaged in discussion with shigmastu about it also and have said it would be impressive (not impossible) to make a tac counter, going so far to say to Thud that we may be surprised by a counter that could be given.
If you also look at the other threads, you will see I advocated using wyverns and earthshakers against jetbikes, and whilst I thought they wouldn't win I said it would give them a bit of a fight. Thus showing I have not approached this with a closed mindset.
Maths however is not hypothetical. They are undercosted compared to anything else.
I have shown respect in my discussions across the threads on this topic, yet been called by others on the other side many things, such as a whiner and a cry baby. Respect works both ways.
I have demonstrated in this thread that I respected the fact that talys was not just conveniently ignoring counter points in other threads - something somebody unwilling to engage in a discourse wouldn't do.

So please, explain where abouts your negative opinion of me has arisen? Is it because I hold a different view point to yourself?

It is a pity you don't actually know me as a person - as I have very little negativity in my life. But thank you for your assumptions.

I think this list would murder it: Dual CAD
Iron Hands:
HQ: Master of the Forge with bike +conversion beamer
130pts
Troops
Scouts ccw + bolt pistol- 55pts
Scouts ccw + bolt pistol- 55pts
+1 Techmarine w' servitor-60pts

Heavy support:
195- Sicaran tank with Lascannons and ceramite
195- Sicaran tank with Lascannons and ceramite
155- deimoss pattern predator w' heavy conversion beamer + extra armor



Clan Raukaan
Master of the Forge with bike +conversion beamer-130

+ 2 techmarines w' servitor- 120pts

Troops
Scouts ccw + bolt pistol- 55pts
Scouts ccw + bolt pistol- 55pts

Heavy support:
195- Sicaran tank with Lascannons and ceramite
195- Sicaran tank with Lascannons and ceramite
155- deimoss pattern predator w' heavy conversion beamer + extra armor


+ aegis defense line w' quadcannon-100pts

Experiment 626 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Show us a list so we can see what you would be taking in total.

One thing I have to query is how are you getting the WC to be casting so many invis, psy shrieks and flickering fires when you have to spend points on something to take the knights down with? Also what is the range of flickering fire again? My deamon dex is at home. If it is 24" then you are unlikely to be getting in range until having suffered one, if not 2 rounds of fire (depending on who goes first).
Also a psychic power with 3D6 st5 shots at bs4 causes less than 2 casualties on average.
Also remember stomps don't care about invis on your screamers.
IA:13 can supply you with rapier weapons batteries for 70pts with militia training for 3 bs3 tl st9 ap1 shots at 36". That is probably your best Knight counter, but if playing Adamantine Lance as Vaktathi suggested, only 25% of glances/pens will be getting through.

Obviously I wouldn't have 100% of *everything* listed... For one, you'd probably take either Hounds OR Seekers, with Seekers being the clear cut better option due to how filthy-good Slaany Challenge Heralds are, plus the ability to gain Telepathy powers. (and a bucket of Rending attacks that will make Orks burn with jealousy!)

Likewise, I'd only bring a Tzherald *IF* adding in Screamers. On a Disc, getting his Flickering Fire into range of Jetbikes is a non-issue - my own unit are also jetbikes and can turbo boost into threat range. (alongside the added slashing attacks) Even on purely average rolls, 2 kills from Flickering Fire is still 50% of a 4 man unit, with 33% chance of killing one or both of the remaining dudes through Warpflame. (and if not, then they're taking a Ld8 moral check)
If I had to aim at a larger 10 man unit? Thank Tzeentch for Prescience and the ability to gain a 61% shot at Misfortune! (though that full combo is likely most/all WC's for a phase)

If as a Daemon list I don't have WC's to cast the 2-3 super critical powers I need in a turn, then either I'm terrible at list building, or I'm playing a freaking Khorne army! MSU Horrors are only 99pts for 2WC's afterall... Lv3 Disc Tzherald w/Grimoire is IIRC only 140pts... I don't have Warp Charge problems! (unlike Eldar. )

Honestly, I probably wouldn't send the Screamers after a Knight, unless I was *really* desperate, as it's simply not a decent risk vs. reward option... Outside of building up the, (utterly broken as feth!), re-rolled 2++, a Knight will laugh at 9/S5 average WS Armourbane attacks.
Hence why if going the close combat route, I'd leave the 305pts LoC at home, and bring the 300pts Insensate Rage Bloodthirster and gamble on Str.D of my own.

Sorry for the distraction Experiment. Do you have a quick list so I can see what you are getting at? It's hard to visualise it all at those points without a list. I don't know the rules of the new Blood thirster. Would he really be that effective against 3 knights? The screamers problem is that to get in assault range they would have to move near a knight at some point anyway. Would you still be getting enough warp charge though for invis, psy shriek and flickering fire if bringing a FMC, a BT and screemers/hounds?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I think this list would murder it: Dual CAD
Iron Hands:
HQ: Master of the Forge with bike +conversion beamer
130pts
Troops
Scouts ccw + bolt pistol- 55pts
Scouts ccw + bolt pistol- 55pts
+1 Techmarine w' servitor-60pts

Heavy support:
195- Sicaran tank with Lascannons and ceramite
195- Sicaran tank with Lascannons and ceramite
155- deimoss pattern predator w' heavy conversion beamer + extra armor



Clan Raukaan
Master of the Forge with bike +conversion beamer-130

+ 2 techmarines w' servitor- 120pts

Troops
Scouts ccw + bolt pistol- 55pts
Scouts ccw + bolt pistol- 55pts

Heavy support:
195- Sicaran tank with Lascannons and ceramite
195- Sicaran tank with Lascannons and ceramite
155- deimoss pattern predator w' heavy conversion beamer + extra armor


+ aegis defense line w' quadcannon-100pts

I'd have to do thw maths to see if the sicarans and preds can take down the knights before they got in there and started shredding them like wetpaper towels, my gut tells me they wouldn't. You'd probably want a schism of mars on one of them too.
However - coversion beamers... they will force the jbs to close. The CSM conversion beamers on rapiers give a st10 ap1 at over 24" so they may be a useful way to bring jbs forward.

.