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2015/04/18 21:00:32
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Telling people to stop enjoying something for no reason is not logical, Captain.
Not my goal, Lieutenant. I'm trying to express how you're working against your own interests. There are many things in life where there are no right or wrong answers, but there are better. If you're happy spending tons of money on a plastic army manz game and then invest further effort to make it playable, go for it. It's not going to stop making GW a bad company or making a bad game. Eventually, they will piss off enough people and they will collapse. We have measurable proof of that every 6 months.
*shrug*
I'm working against my interest in playing 40k by playing 40k?
Thought for the day
2015/04/18 21:01:21
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Or, you know, the other alternative... they won't. Most companies won't actually close up shop until they lose money, have no money, and can't borrow any money... in that order.
You weren't around when we had these discussions (or at least I don't recall you apart of them), but the general rule of thumb is about 18-24 months for that cycle to happen once a company is trapped in it. There are several lengthy threads about it when they first nose dived, look them up. The actual commentators on the subject are financial and business types. Or you can look up that really great 14+ part series from the PaintingBuddha gent, who was also a chief officer at one point in his career, so certainly qualified to discuss such matters.
The long and short is GW is hurting badly at a time of their highest cost and most profuse release schedule. They have nothing left to cut and, with releases like the Necrons or Eldar, the tipping point of many folks is getting met and surpassed.
The worst thing about this new release is that there was no nessesety for it. At least not the format that we have received. I would be fricking livid if i where an Eldar player.
Im even more livid as a competetive Nid player. Why should people who enjoy eldar as much as i enjoy nids get an easy ride in the game? Th qaulity control of rules in this book is absurdly shocking and decimates competetive play- a part of the game and that is enjoyed by thousands.
Im often to moan about new releases, i moaned to GW about the malaceptor and toxicrene. I also moaned about wraiths re-an pros - thats me.
Whats bad is that my close friends who do not moan, who are pretty laid back, are all freaking out. Like, game changing freakong out. Why?
Its so frustrating.
2015/04/18 21:06:09
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Or, you know, the other alternative... they won't. Most companies won't actually close up shop until they lose money, have no money, and can't borrow any money... in that order.
You weren't around when we had these discussions (or at least I don't recall you apart of them), but the general rule of thumb is about 18-24 months for that cycle to happen once a company is trapped in it. There are several lengthy threads about it when they first nose dived, look them up. The actual commentators on the subject are financial and business types. Or you can look up that really great 14+ part series from the PaintingBuddha gent, who was also a chief officer at one point in his career, so certainly qualified to discuss such matters.
The long and short is GW is hurting badly at a time of their highest cost and most profuse release schedule. They have nothing left to cut and, with releases like the Necrons or Eldar, the tipping point of many folks is getting met and surpassed.
I actually try to stay out of these things, and avoided dakka for YEARS for the same reason that most of my friends do -- you get sucked into these forever-cyclic virtual knife fights that go nowhere. I did read most of the back-and-forth and more wisely chose not to participate.
Yes, GW is making less money than it did during its most successful years.
No, GW isn't losing money or hemorrhaging cash.
No, GW isn't going bankrupt.
Yes, GW could go out of business.
None of which affects how I spend my money today, which is to buy neat stuff that I like, model it, and have fun with friends playing it -- all of which are more important than meeting random strangers (much less friends) and saying, "The most important thing for me today is to WIN. DAMMIT".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah, and I think the new Eldar buffs are overboard too., although, frankly, I'm not sure I'm in love with the formations. It just won't make me quit the game, and I know that I and my local group will fix it, if it ACTUALLY turns into a problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/18 21:08:44
2015/04/18 21:11:12
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Or, you know, the other alternative... they won't. Most companies won't actually close up shop until they lose money, have no money, and can't borrow any money... in that order.
You weren't around when we had these discussions (or at least I don't recall you apart of them), but the general rule of thumb is about 18-24 months for that cycle to happen once a company is trapped in it. There are several lengthy threads about it when they first nose dived, look them up. The actual commentators on the subject are financial and business types. Or you can look up that really great 14+ part series from the PaintingBuddha gent, who was also a chief officer at one point in his career, so certainly qualified to discuss such matters.
The long and short is GW is hurting badly at a time of their highest cost and most profuse release schedule. They have nothing left to cut and, with releases like the Necrons or Eldar, the tipping point of many folks is getting met and surpassed.
I actually try to stay out of these things, and avoided dakka for YEARS for the same reason that most of my friends do -- you get sucked into these forever-cyclic virtual knife fights that go nowhere. I did read most of the back-and-forth and more wisely chose not to participate.
Yes, GW is making less money than it did during its most successful years.
No, GW isn't losing money or hemorrhaging cash.
No, GW isn't going bankrupt.
Yes, GW could go out of business.
None of which affects how I spend my money today, which is to buy neat stuff that I like, model it, and have fun with friends playing it -- all of which are more important than meeting random strangers (much less friends) and saying, "The most important thing for me today is to WIN. DAMMIT".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah, and I think the new Eldar buffs are overboard too., although, frankly, I'm not sure I'm in love with the formations. It just won't make me quit the game, and I know that I and my local group will fix it, if it ACTUALLY turns into a problem.
Exalted, agree with everything in here. Yes I think new Eldar is OP. Yes I will think you are Lord Cheesebeard the VII if you spam bikes and D weapons, no I won't judge you for liking and enjoying the models and fielding some of the new OP units.
2015/04/18 21:15:59
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Exalted, agree with everything in here. Yes I think new Eldar is OP. Yes I will think you are Lord Cheesebeard the VII if you spam bikes and D weapons, no I won't judge you for liking and enjoying the models and fielding some of the new OP units.
Hahaha.. yeah, that's pretty much it
I think the codex will be a serious problem when it comes games against mediocre players who want to build the absolute cheesiest, easiest to abuse army that takes no brains, that only want to win, and are uncompromising in their play. But like... there's only one or two of those in every store, and everyone avoids them like the plague and talks about them behind their backs
Opponent 1: "Oh, Thursday? Nooooo... uh... I'm going out with... my... mother... for her... uh... sister's birthday."
Opponent 2: "Yeah, me too. I'm going out with his mother for her sister's birthday too."
Opponent 3: "Nah, not me. I just don't want to play your 6 wave serpents, kthanks. Hey are you guys playing 40k at your mother's sister's birthday?"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/18 21:19:01
2015/04/18 21:19:16
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Martel732 wrote: I honestly don't know if I could be polite to someone fielding these units. I think I'd have to forfeit.
Yeah I would probably just say "pencil this in as a win for yourself" and look for another person to play with. Unless they weren't spammy.
I've read what else the codex does over on Warseer, and against BA, they don't have to spam to embarrass me. Again. This is too much after 6th ed Taudar and WS spam. This is gonna be at least three more years of BA being hammered by these guys mercilessly.
2015/04/18 21:20:06
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
I actually try to stay out of these things, and avoided dakka for YEARS for the same reason that most of my friends do -- you get sucked into these forever-cyclic virtual knife fights that go nowhere. I did read most of the back-and-forth and more wisely chose not to participate.
Yes, GW is making less money than it did during its most successful years.
No, GW isn't losing money or hemorrhaging cash.
No, GW isn't going bankrupt.
Yes, GW could go out of business.
None of which affects how I spend my money today, which is to buy neat stuff that I like, model it, and have fun with friends playing it -- all of which are more important than meeting random strangers (much less friends) and saying, "The most important thing for me today is to WIN. DAMMIT".
It isn't so much that GW is making less money than it did in its peak years. It is that year on year the revenue has decreased from the previous year. They've stayed profitable by raising prices and cutting costs, then also accelerating the release schedule.That is not a very sustainable method.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/04/18 21:21:33
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
The first batch of first hand codex rules reports are in! OH MY what the Eldar have become! +++UPDATED+++
Iuchiban has verified with cover pics that he has a copy of Codex Eldar Craftworlds in hand. This stuff is almost certainly correct:
via Iuchiban 4-17-2015
Ok. Let’s go.
All Distortion weapons are Strenght D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strenght is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death.
Step by step.
Banshees add +3″ when running or assaulting. They igoner the I penalti when assualting through cover.
There are no “chapter tactics”.
Yes they have:
Primaris: Guide (no changes)
1: Executioner: Focussed witch fire. 24″. Target receives 3 hits, always wounds on 2+. If target diez, another model receives 2 hits. If target dies another gone receives 1 hit.
2: Fatality: You re-roll to wound or to penetrate when firing at target unit. 24″
3: Will of Asuryan: 12″ bubble of Fear and Adamantium will
4: Fortune: As always
5: Mind fight: Mainly the same.
6: Ancestral Storm: Warp charges 3 (5″ blast), Warp charge 4 (Apoc blast), 24″, Haywire, wounds 2+
Names may be different in the English version. (I own the Spanish one).
Wraithknight is LoW (295 points), Jump gargantuan creature
Wraithguard/blades are not tropos anymore if taking a Spiritseer (Only Elites)
Crimson hunter basically the same, but 140 points only.
No changes on Battle focus of the bladestorm rule. No hints on the Iyanden codex
(Wraithknight) Sword + Shield: Free (Sword is Strenght D)
Solar cannon + Shield: Free
(The Wraithknight’s Heavy Wraithcannons) Is the equipment by default.
(Jetbikes) 17/model, every model can purchase one scatter laser or shuriken cannon for +10 points
(Wraithknight Suncannon) Sun (Sorry for the “solar”) remains the same.
(Wave) Serpents are 110 points, and shield is now: S6, Assault 2D6, Ignores cover, One use only.
Shining spears have 4+ cover save if they moved the previous turn. 25/model. Lance is: 6″, F6, Assault 1, Lance. In combat: +3F when charging. Both are AP3.
Wraithblades: Same but 30/model and have Rage.
Hemlock: Same cost, has Lvl 2, can choose Daemonology (Sacred), Telepathy and Battle Runes. D-Scythes are a special D weapon as mentioned above,.
Scorpions: 17/model, Infiltration, Stealth, and Shrouded until they fire or fight in combat
Warp Spiders: 19/model Monofilament rule has changed.They roll to wound against I, although the T is still used to calculate ID.
Hawks: 16/model, they move 18″, and when moving over a Flyer the can do a special attack. Hits on 4+, S4, AP4 Haywire
(Wraithguard) Cost is the same.
(Regards to Autarchs and Swooping Hawk “no scatter”) Basically the same.
(Squadrons of Falcons/Fire Prisms/Night Spinners) YEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Up to three!!!!!!!! And they have special rules if done so:
Falcon: if Deep Strike, first Falcon does not scatter. Others are place at 4″.
Fire Prism: For each additional Fire Prism firing +1S / -1AP
Night Spinners: +1S for each Night spinner
(Serpent Shield) Nop, only 24″ (range)
(Eldar Warhost Detachment) The main bonus of the Warhost is that they always run 6″.
(Serpent Shield Defence) When working as a shield, it works as before.
Falcon can DS only if taken in a unit of 3.
Guardians: Same
Dire avengers: They overwatch with BS2
Avatar is LoW, but mainly the same
I cannot see any psyker being able to get malefic daemonology
Formation rules:
Guardian battlehost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul’s support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12″. Guardians can purchase a Platform for free.
Windrider host: Once per game all formation gets Shred when firing shuriken weapons
Guardian Stormhost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul’s support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12″. Storm guardians can purchase 2 special weapons for free.
Seer council: They harness Warp charges with 3+.
Aspect Host: They re-roll LD tests and get +1 to WS or BS.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Once per game, Shuriken weapons are Assault 3. +1 to BS Crimson Death: Preferred enemy (Flying things), 4+ cover save, and if Jink, may re-roll the cover save.
Wraithhost: Get battle trance, if targe is at 18″ or less from spiritser, reroll to hit
(Warp Spider guns) Why is that? You still have S6. Target needs to have I6 to wound him on 4+.
(Dire Avengers Troops) Yes, they are.
Before leaving I will post the list of special ítems:
– A pistol S4, AP3, Rending
– A sword +2S, AP- Rending and if fighting in a challenge, wounds on 2+ and Instant Death
– One sniper rifle, AP2, 120″
– One ítem that if bearer does not cast any phychic power, or shots during the shooting phase, he can run 48″ and may reroll cover saves.
– One sword +1S, AP3, Soulblaze (affects wounded unit and all enemy units at 6″)
– One ítem that when bearer diez, 5″ template is placed and all models suffer one S4, AP5 hit. If at least, one wound is infflicted, bearer comes back to life, with 1W. One use only
– One ítem that makes psyhic powers required 1 WC less. No inv saves if done so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/18 21:22:12
2015/04/18 21:23:08
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Martel732 wrote: I honestly don't know if I could be polite to someone fielding these units. I think I'd have to forfeit.
Yeah I would probably just say "pencil this in as a win for yourself" and look for another person to play with. Unless they weren't spammy.
I've read what else the codex does over on Warseer, and against BA, they don't have to spam to embarrass me. Again. This is too much after 6th ed Taudar and WS spam. This is gonna be at least three more years of BA being hammered by these guys mercilessly.
Although I get the feeling that SM and Tau are about to get the same treatment, it just isn't fair for everyone else or the people who like a challenge as Eldar without purposely having to weaken their lists.
2015/04/18 21:27:09
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
I've read what else the codex does over on Warseer, and against BA, they don't have to spam to embarrass me. Again. This is too much after 6th ed Taudar and WS spam. This is gonna be at least three more years of BA being hammered by these guys mercilessly.
Although I get the feeling that SM and Tau are about to get the same treatment, it just isn't fair for everyone else or the people who like a challenge as Eldar without purposely having to weaken their lists.
Yeah. This is really the problem with the codex in my opinion -- it takes too much of the challenge out of the Eldar equation. Although in fairness, I don't think Blood Angels need the new codex to be embarrassed by Eldar.
I'm not sure there's been an edition where that was a pretty matchup -- except the current one, if you play a large enough game to abuse Angel's Fury and blow them all up with null deployment templates and T1 ds charges. But not like that's a whole lot of fun to play either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/18 21:29:13
2015/04/18 21:34:30
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
To anyone wanting a 40k game that is balanced and awesome to watch, pick up WH40K II retribution. Then download the FREE elite mod. You can play as any race save necrons and I think tau in the multiplayer. You get almost all of the units save the Knight's/WK stuff. (Sadly no bikes yet) . its not perfect but hey. Its an option.
It seems a lot of people are very unhappy about this new codex - and has actually united a lot of people who spend the rest of the time grumping at each-other.
Let's hope I don't have to face these D weapons, they don't seem fun at all
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Okay, sure, I get that there may be an element of vengeance to be had with this book and future ones, but any book that one ups this one will only make the game worse. Its gakky this one happened, but the solution is not for books on or above this power level.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
2015/04/18 21:46:57
Subject: Re:Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Blacksails wrote: Okay, sure, I get that there may be an element of vengeance to be had with this book and future ones, but any book that one ups this one will only make the game worse. Its gakky this one happened, but the solution is not for books on or above this power level.
Of course the other issue is that everyone else is now underpowered and has to suffer through grueling matches for two to five years again..
2015/04/18 21:49:34
Subject: Re:Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Blacksails wrote: Okay, sure, I get that there may be an element of vengeance to be had with this book and future ones, but any book that one ups this one will only make the game worse. Its gakky this one happened, but the solution is not for books on or above this power level.
Hopefully no one from here gets more powerful. Gosh I hope this doesn't happen to the upcoming SM release! I would hate my army to get this stupidly OP. Even though I suspect in my heart this WILL happen to SM.
2015/04/18 21:51:50
Subject: Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
2015/04/18 21:53:11
Subject: Re:Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Blacksails wrote: I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.
So back to Rogue Trader then it seems.
Either way I want my CSM to actually be worthwhile enough, if the Aspects can get full bonus and benefits and 2W exarchs I certainly want my CSM to not be as crap as they are now!
2015/04/18 21:53:19
Subject: Re:Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Blacksails wrote: I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.
I really don't see the functional difference at this point. That's how far down the totem BA are from Eldar now.
2015/04/18 21:53:53
Subject: Re:Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Blacksails wrote: I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.
If they want to keep going OP, you are right, that is literally the only way they can keep one upping.
2015/04/18 21:55:05
Subject: Re:Ban Eldar from All Competative Play. Operation Pitchfork.
Everyone wants their army to be worthwhile, but if the escalation continues, the game will be quite literally so broken as to be nearly unplayable outside of a handful of close friends and heavy comp/restriction/gentlemen's agreements.
When money is factored in, I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons. I think its pretty daft now a troops choice can take D-weapons, but I'm holding out a little longer for a few reasons.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Thought for the day 
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / 
Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / 
Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / 
Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / 
Black Death 1500pts
