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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Not trying to rehash Raw/Rai. Just pointing out that even when GW does try to limit eldar in some way, they still can't get it right.

I mean, that's a fair point

Meh the only problem I see it the wraithKnight being a gargantuan monster especially in a normal 40k army I would of thought that it would have to at least be a lord of war choice or around the 400- 500pt cost. In all honesty I would still play against eldar sure I would slightly grumble but could be interesting trying to take one down especially with CSM.
Any suggestions how Nurgle CSM would deal with one without allies

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

1) yes they did shoot at the exorcists but they failed a lot of rolls and we got extremely lucky with our rolls (total of 17 shots) and stripped all bar 1 wound off of the first WK.
2) how would they not? get into CC and I have 15 str 10 hits coming. he only managed to land 2 hits which I saved 1 (thanks to the shield of faith)
3) he isn't a moron, he focused his fire on the exorcists which should be the main focus of any player against a sisters army. the exorcist is our hardest hitting unit in the entire army, take that out we have no cover fire for our army.
4) no we ran a rather mobile list. we took the Seraphim formation and we backed it up with the above mentioned units and two sister squads with immolators. the seraphims wrecked a lot of havoc and the two squads went for objectives it worked reasonably well but we still fell short of the win by 3VP.

Relapse wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

Eldar will be beaten in many games. Even more as time goes on and people realize the counters their armies are capable of.

Eldar will be beaten at many games, yes.
Partially because there are hundreds of dice rolls during the game of various importance that could go against them.
Partially because they could get a rough matchup. Like say, another eldar list!
Partially because they will tone down their list to not be full tilt cheese in an attempt to have fun with the other player.

But if you're saying the eldar player is going into a game at a disadvantage against ANY army, you are smoking some strong stuff, sir.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

Eldar will be beaten in many games. Even more as time goes on and people realize the counters their armies are capable of.

Eldar will be beaten at many games, yes.
Partially because there are hundreds of dice rolls during the game of various importance that could go against them.
Partially because they could get a rough matchup. Like say, another eldar list!
Partially because they will tone down their list to not be full tilt cheese in an attempt to have fun with the other player.

But if you're saying the eldar player is going into a game at a disadvantage against ANY army, you are smoking some strong stuff, sir.

There are already discussions and test armies to see the best way to beat Eldar, and some of the methods sound plausible.

The fact that it's very hard to come up with a TAILORED list to beat a competitive 7dar list is very damning evidence.

7dar. LOL. Maybe I'd play against Eldar if I got to hit every model I killed in game with a mallet out of game. Multiple hits for WK. That's about where I'm at . I saw *five* people this week spraying and gluing scat bikes. Nope.

I have not played against Eldar yet.
And have not played my infantry Aspect Warrior list either.

But it cannot be worse then the Wave Serpent list plus 2 Wraithknights i faced a few weeks ago before the new codex.

There are a lot of lists that are no fun to play against, especially at tournaments.

What i do wonder is what the people that subscribe a post like this play themselves. Because those might be the lists that most people don't want to play against either.

But on the whole above all i don't want to play against a wrong kind of player, not the wrong kind of army.

And you usually only face the wrong kind of player in tournaments, a setting where the worse of the armies and, in soms cases, players is found.

Just read the Eldar codex.

Not sure if this was intentional, but Eldar Rangers have jetbikes in the digital version of the dex...

Probably poor copy/paste skills on GW's part

Classic GW.

Premium (and a bit) price for sub-par unfinished rushed products.
Anybody who buys GW rules gets exactly what they deserve.

To me, it's beginning to look more and more like the codex is powerful but fine as long as you mediate whether or not you and your opponent want to play with super heavies and gargantuans. It's going to be rediculous at low comp tourneys but if you have some social skills it should be fine for pick up.

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be playing with supers and gargants unless your opponent has one too, or has specifically written their list with the knowledge that you'd like to play one and they've agreed. But hey, that's just me.

 Las wrote:
To me, it's beginning to look more and more like the codex is powerful but fine as long as you mediate whether or not you and your opponent want to play with super heavies and gargantuans and D-weapons and scatterbike swarm. It's going to be rediculous at low comp tourneys but if you have some social skills it should be fine for pick up.

Fixed that for you.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Las wrote:
To me, it's beginning to look more and more like the codex is powerful but fine as long as you mediate whether or not you and your opponent want to play with super heavies and gargantuans and D-weapons and scatterbike swarm. It's going to be rediculous at low comp tourneys but if you have some social skills it should be fine for pick up.

Fixed that for you.

Cool discussion.

 Las wrote:
To me, it's beginning to look more and more like the codex is powerful but fine as long as you mediate whether or not you and your opponent want to play with super heavies and gargantuans. It's going to be rediculous at low comp tourneys but if you have some social skills it should be fine for pick up.

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be playing with supers and gargants unless your opponent has one too, or has specifically written their list with the knowledge that you'd like to play one and they've agreed. But hey, that's just me.

100% with you, Eldar are going to be super strong but it's not like you can't have a talk with your opponent beforehand. I mean, if somebody showed up to a 500 point pickup game with a Knight Titan and all I had was a swarm of Ork boyz, I would just be like 'naw, no thanks. let's take another look at our lists'.

 clamclaw wrote:

 Las wrote:
To me, it's beginning to look more and more like the codex is powerful but fine as long as you mediate whether or not you and your opponent want to play with super heavies and gargantuans. It's going to be rediculous at low comp tourneys but if you have some social skills it should be fine for pick up.

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be playing with supers and gargants unless your opponent has one too, or has specifically written their list with the knowledge that you'd like to play one and they've agreed. But hey, that's just me.

100% with you, Eldar are going to be super strong but it's not like you can't have a talk with your opponent beforehand. I mean, if somebody showed up to a 500 point pickup game with a Knight Titan and all I had was a swarm of Ork boyz, I would just be like 'naw, no thanks. let's take another look at our lists'.

Exactly, the same would be true for me of a Baneblade, or a stompa or a lord of skulls. I just don't think theyre appropriate to spring on an opponent. The fact that the WK is under costed for a GC is another discussion. But in 100% of my random games where the opponent brought a super heavy, they were more than happy to take it out after I explained that my list just wasn't geared to that power level of unit class.

The eldar codex does seem broken, but this isn't the first time GW has created a cheese-filled, broken codex, and it won't be that last.

IMHO the eldar should definitely not be banned or restricted in a tournament setting. True, they will steamroll many armies, but tournaments are supposed to be ultra-competitive. Besides, what you will likely see is that the majority of the tournament players will be bringing eldar armies, so it will likely be eldar vs eldar in most matches. I know that doesn't help the non-eldar players, but it does provide some degree of balance since the majority of the players are using the same codex. I'm not saying this is a good thing. This is just my prediction. When there is only really 1 top tier and competitive army, that is bad for the game. Things get stale quick. But that's just the way it is. The game is the game, especially on the tournament scene.

Now in friendly matches, club matches, or store pick-up games, players who use the cheese TFG eldar list will find it difficult to get many games in. Someone will always be willing to tailor a list and try beating them (at least once), but the comers will start to diminish in clubs or stores, and even friendly beer and pretzel games, after they have been tabled a few times by someone's over-the-top army. But YMMV, as it depends on the meta and the amount of players in your area or group. If it is an ultra competitive meta, then expect either to lose a few players, and then see multiple players pick up eldar, which will become boring after a while. I expect that the natural evolution of this will be restrictions imposed by the players themselves. The game is supposed to be fun, and when it quits being fun, people tend to drop out. So expect to see a lot of self regulation.

I don't think this codex is good for the balance of the game, but that being said, I don't think it should be banned either. Heck, I play Tyranids, so it's not like I look forward to facing a bunch of scatbikes, and D WKs, but in a tournament scene, I expect to face them. In a friendly scene, what the heck, I'll give it a few shots (tailoring a list specific to the eldar cheese). I play the game because I enjoy the fun, enjoy the hobby, and enjoy the challenge of facing off against other players.

I predict that in a few months we will see many players including eldar allies, changing to eldar entirely, or tailoring lists specifically for eldar (if that is even possible. It doesn't seem to be for some armies.). A "if you can't beat them, then join them" kind of thing. I think GW knows exactly what they are doing. They are going to make a ton of money with this new eldar release.

Sorry, OP, while I understand your anger and frustrations, I cannot get behind a ban or boycott of the new elder. Many of our gaming brothers have invested a considerable amount of time and money in building their eldar armies. No matter how broken the new codex is, they don't deserve to be punished for things beyond their control.

That's my 2 cents.

LemanRuse wrote:


That's my 2 cents.

You just worded everything I've been thinking in a few nice paragraphs. Problem (not really a problem I suppose) is that a lot of people who are in the competitive scene are going to feel the impacts of the new Eldar more than casual players. Like you said, pickup and friendly games should be fine since there is always going to be a TFG to find the most broken list. Nobody can force you to play a game.

Trying to tell a player who might have been building a Saim Hann fluffy bike army since 12 years ago he can't play is pretty extreme.

LemanRuse wrote:


I predict that in a few months we will see many players including eldar allies, changing to eldar entirely, or tailoring lists specifically for eldar (if that is even possible. It doesn't seem to be for some armies.). A "if you can't beat them, then join them" kind of thing. I think GW knows exactly what they are doing. They are going to make a ton of money with this new eldar release.

That sounds terrible and very boring.

 Ascalam wrote:
Just read the Eldar codex.

Not sure if this was intentional, but Eldar Rangers have jetbikes in the digital version of the dex...

I guess I bought the wrong version of the codex. :(

(sobbing) They will just have to ride in Cloudstrike Falcons.

 MWHistorian wrote:

LemanRuse wrote:


I predict that in a few months we will see many players including eldar allies, changing to eldar entirely, or tailoring lists specifically for eldar (if that is even possible. It doesn't seem to be for some armies.). A "if you can't beat them, then join them" kind of thing. I think GW knows exactly what they are doing. They are going to make a ton of money with this new eldar release.

That sounds terrible and very boring.

I agree completely. It would get stale fast.


I hope I am wrong.

 MWHistorian wrote:

LemanRuse wrote:


I predict that in a few months we will see many players including eldar allies, changing to eldar entirely, or tailoring lists specifically for eldar (if that is even possible. It doesn't seem to be for some armies.). A "if you can't beat them, then join them" kind of thing. I think GW knows exactly what they are doing. They are going to make a ton of money with this new eldar release.

That sounds terrible and very boring.

It sounds like everything I've heard and seen about 5e tournaments.

"I have Razorbacks, with green marines in them"
"I have Chimeras"
"I too have Razorbacks, but with grey marines in them"
"I have some more Razorbacks, with red marines in them"
"I have yet more Razorbacks, with silver marines in them"

Am I the only one that sees "Grey Knight Release" syndrome here?

These are the same responses from back in 5th edition. Either we have a new edition coming soon or many codex updates that bring others up to par with eldar.

Outside of the D weapon support batteries eldar can take in mass, a good balanced army will kick the crap out of an eldar player spamming d scythes. The only rage is from knight titan players and MC spammers, and these are not real people.

 juraigamer wrote:
Am I the only one that sees "Grey Knight Release" syndrome here?

These are the same responses from back in 5th edition. Either we have a new edition coming soon or many codex updates that bring others up to par with eldar.

Outside of the D weapon support batteries eldar can take in mass, a good balanced army will kick the crap out of an eldar player spamming d scythes. The only rage is from knight titan players and MC spammers, and these are not real people.

You don't need to spam D-scythes for them to be outrageously effective. A small number supported by BS5 Aspect Warriors, huge numbers of Scatterlasers, and psychic powers makes for an army that most TAC lists won't have a chance against.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Am I the only one that sees "Grey Knight Release" syndrome here?

These are the same responses from back in 5th edition. Either we have a new edition coming soon or many codex updates that bring others up to par with eldar.

Outside of the D weapon support batteries eldar can take in mass, a good balanced army will kick the crap out of an eldar player spamming d scythes. The only rage is from knight titan players and MC spammers, and these are not real people.

You don't need to spam D-scythes for them to be outrageously effective. A small number supported by BS5 Aspect Warriors, huge numbers of Scatterlasers, and psychic powers makes for an army that most TAC lists won't have a chance against.

^ This. My 1850 list only has 1 squad of D scythes. The rest is 30 scatter bikes, jetseer, WK and crimson hunter. If the D scythe go down I'm still feeling pretty good about my chances.

I wouldn't go as far as banning them but something should be done to either boost the other codex or tone this one down. Played a game the other day and with enough terrain I can say that warp spiders are a goddam nightmare.

I'm not really sure why people bring up the "they're ok in funsies environments!" thing. Of course they're ok in funsies environments! Everything is fine in funsies environments! If I have someone bring 5 knights and I have no realistic chance, we'll turn it to a scenario where I have to hold out or something.

This entire thread is more about how the competitive scene, which despite popular opinion of forum-only and funsies/casual-only players, is doing OKAY, with at least half the books having realistic chances of winning tournies, (although a couple of the books win more than any of the others currently,) is about to get wrecked if unmodded 7e eldar come in.

This book unmodded in a tourney would literally make me just not sign up, and I'm glad the ITC is deciding to do -something- to it.

 Toofast wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Am I the only one that sees "Grey Knight Release" syndrome here?

These are the same responses from back in 5th edition. Either we have a new edition coming soon or many codex updates that bring others up to par with eldar.

Outside of the D weapon support batteries eldar can take in mass, a good balanced army will kick the crap out of an eldar player spamming d scythes. The only rage is from knight titan players and MC spammers, and these are not real people.

You don't need to spam D-scythes for them to be outrageously effective. A small number supported by BS5 Aspect Warriors, huge numbers of Scatterlasers, and psychic powers makes for an army that most TAC lists won't have a chance against.

^ This. My 1850 list only has 1 squad of D scythes. The rest is 30 scatter bikes, jetseer, WK and crimson hunter. If the D scythe go down I'm still feeling pretty good about my chances.

But......but I keep hearing how no one will buy 30 Jetbikes. Its too expensive!

LemanRuse wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

LemanRuse wrote:


I predict that in a few months we will see many players including eldar allies, changing to eldar entirely, or tailoring lists specifically for eldar (if that is even possible. It doesn't seem to be for some armies.). A "if you can't beat them, then join them" kind of thing. I think GW knows exactly what they are doing. They are going to make a ton of money with this new eldar release.

That sounds terrible and very boring.

I agree completely. It would get stale fast.


I hope I am wrong.

Currently, the best counter to Eldar is another Eldar player. Who goes first will probably have the advantage.

The only rage is from knight titan players and MC spammers, and these are not real people.

ouch!

 Ratius wrote:

The only rage is from knight titan players and MC spammers, and these are not real people.

ouch!

Make an army with 9 Carnifexes... that's a Demonizin'.