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Hey Dakkanoughts!

Over on my blog ( www.facebook.com/blogforthebloodgod ) I am putting together a list of questions about rules from Codex Khorne Daemonkin that people feel require an FAQ, can you think of anything i may have missed?

1. Can Possesed simultaneously benefit from two results from the vessels of chaos special rule, as they roll once in every fight subphase and the results last the entire game turn?

2. If Possesed roll Supernatural Speed on the vessels of chaos table twice (see question 1) do these results stack? And do they stack with Apocalyptic fury from the blood tithe table

3. If your opponents force also contains units with the "blood for the blood god" rule, do both players gain blood tithe points simultaneously (for example if a unit with Blood for the blood god is destroyed would both forces gain two blood tithe points?

4. If a character with the "blood for the blood god" is slain, but not in a challenge, does the Khorne Daemonkin player generate a Blood tithe point?

5. If a model with the axe of ruin is removed from play as a result of Dark Apotheosis does the Khorne Daemonkin player summon both a Bloodthirster of unfettered fury AND a Daemon Prince? Does that Daemon Prince retain the axe of ruin? And is a second bloodthirster summoned upon the daemon princes death? If so which of the two remaining bloodthirsters is the warlord?

6. What formation / detachment do units summoned from the blood tithe belong to? Would they benefit from any command benefits such as Objective Secured (combined arms detachment), Boon of Khorne (slaughtercult) or counter attack (charnel cohort)

7. If an independent character from Codex Chaos Space Marines or Chaos Daemons joins a unit with the "Blood for the blood god" rule do they count as part of the unit when applying results from the blood tithe?

8. If you have multiple blood host detachments do you generate multiple blood tithe points at the start of each turn?

9. When a Bloodthirster or Daemon Prince is summoned from the Blood Tithe what flight mode do they arrive in? Does this take place BEFORE the movement phase? Can they change flight mode and or move in the turn they arrive?

10. If an independent character from a slaughtercult formation joins another unit from a seperate formation or detachment, do they count as the same unit for the purposes of the blood tithe? And does that unit benefit from the additional boons from the slaughtercult formation?

11. Why the F*%k is Kharn on the limited edition cover but not available in the codex? Lol

the only one i think i could answer is #6, Im pretty sure it works like summoning magic; they do not belong to any detachment, and thus gain no benefits.

and #8, i sure hope so!

I can also answer #5 in a way that doesn't really help. You can't get Dark Apotheosis on a model in KhorneKin. That's a byproduct of the Champion of Chaos rule in CSM, KDK don't have that.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
I can also answer #5 in a way that doesn't really help. You can't get Dark Apotheosis on a model in KhorneKin. That's a byproduct of the Champion of Chaos rule in CSM, KDK don't have that.

Of course you can. Dark Apotheosis is right there on the Blood Tithe table.

Oh yeah, it sure is. I just called that one 'Daemon Prince one' so I didn't get it confused with the CSM version. Kinda backfired on me there though didn't it?

A question i have that might allready be answered or is crystal clear for other poeple.

What happens when you have the FnP Blood Tithe and you are under the effects of the Tzeentch flames power that give you FnP or a +1 to FnP if you passs the Thoughness test?

Do you get the bonus, but next turn if you don't upkeep the FnP with the BTpts its lost, or do you keep it even if you don't upkeep the BT?...

The Tzeentch flame thing says thjat models hits by this power and that passes a T test either gain the FnP rule if they don't have it, or gain a +1 to their FnP if they allready have it.

So how does those two interacts?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
A question i have that might allready be answered or is crystal clear for other poeple.

What happens when you have the FnP Blood Tithe and you are under the effects of the Tzeentch flames power that give you FnP or a +1 to FnP if you passs the Thoughness test?

Do you get the bonus, but next turn if you don't upkeep the FnP with the BTpts its lost, or do you keep it even if you don't upkeep the BT?...

The Tzeentch flame thing says thjat models hits by this power and that passes a T test either gain the FnP rule if they don't have it, or gain a +1 to their FnP if they allready have it.

So how does those two interacts?

The blood tithe effect grants the ability FnP +5. Period. After that, tzeentch can buff it higher. But not the other way around, if you already have FnP when you hit the blood tithe table, it won't make it better (unless your FnP was +6 before)

3. Yes, absolutely. This is clear in the rules, and is also fluffy as all hell

4. Yes curretnly with the wording, so in terms of "RAW" this is easy. Not intended

5. Yes, absolutely clear. Yes retains the axe, absolutely clear.

6. easy, none. Absolutely clear

7. Yes, absolutely. IC rules state quite clearly normal member for all rules purposes

8. Yes, very clear

9. Swooping, RAW is pretty clear. They arrive at the start of the turn phase, again absolutely clear there.

10. Presuming thats the gain a bonus effect from the table, no, for the same reason as above - they (the iC) are no longer a slaughtercult unit

11. THis isn't a worldeaters book, obviously Notice no VotLW

9. they enter swooping as via deep strike. it takes place prior to the movement phase. after blood tithe points, rally fleeing troops and reserve rolls you begin normal activation of the movement phase. pick blood thruster and land him for next round face smashing

How are you picking them when you cannot move any furtther, and you declare modes prior to moving the model?

9 - Arriving in swooping mode from blood tithe summoning is unclear

FMC deployment says always arrives in swooping mode when arriving from deep strike reserves.

A summoned bloodthirster is summoned via (by way of) deep strike, which means place him on the table, scatter him, not dragging along all the other reserves rules or deep strike rules.

Did he come from deep strike reserves? No, he burst forth out of the body of the champion that was selected as per the fluff. (I know nothing to do with the rules but indicates possible intent of how it should work)

If anything, I would say the bloodthirster arrives in gliding mode and isn't allowed to arrive by swooping even if it wanted to (similar to deploying on the table at the beginning of the game as per FMC deployment)

So you've just randomly decided to disregard certain elements of the Deep Strike rules without ever being explicitly told to do so?

Blood Thirster blood tithe summoning says immediately arrives via deep strike.

Deep Strike

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule
and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your
opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

The unit was not placed in reserve and I did not tell my opponent it was arriving by deep strike therefor it is not called deep strike reserve ('sometimes' does not mean 'all the time')
It would normally not be able to deep strike at all according to this rule, BUT codex trumps rulebook therefor the bloodthirster can still arrive via deep strike because we are told it can in the codex.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as
follows:

I choose to disregard rolling for them to arrive, because BT summoning says they arrive immediately.

Under FMC deployment

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always
counts as being in Swooping mode.

It did not arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, it arrived via Deep Strike so this is not applied.

So what mode is the bloodthirster in when it arrives?

Reading the rules it seems like it is not assigned a mode and will get to choose one when it moves next.

Note that Jink is under its special rules and doesn't state that it has to be in either mode to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: Won't post too much more on this subject to derail this thread, definitely needs an FAQ since most people believe that deep strike and deep strike reserve are the same thing.

But definitely, the conditions for the bloodthirster to be in deep strike reserves is not met, which would mean that it cannot deep strike, but the codex overrules this.

even if it is the same thing, that still leaves the issue of whether or not they can change flight modes, but let's not go there.

The issue is something that needs to be adressed by GW, so let's leave it at that.

Why dont we all send an email to GW and annoy them about?

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Blood Thirster blood tithe summoning says immediately arrives via deep strike.

Deep Strike

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule
and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your
opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

The unit was not placed in reserve and I did not tell my opponent it was arriving by deep strike therefor it is not called deep strike reserve ('sometimes' does not mean 'all the time')
It would normally not be able to deep strike at all according to this rule, BUT codex trumps rulebook therefor the bloodthirster can still arrive via deep strike because we are told it can in the codex.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as
follows:

I choose to disregard rolling for them to arrive, because BT summoning says they arrive immediately.

Under FMC deployment

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always
counts as being in Swooping mode.

It did not arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, it arrived via Deep Strike so this is not applied.

So what mode is the bloodthirster in when it arrives?

Reading the rules it seems like it is not assigned a mode and will get to choose one when it moves next.

Note that Jink is under its special rules and doesn't state that it has to be in either mode to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: Won't post too much more on this subject to derail this thread, definitely needs an FAQ since most people believe that deep strike and deep strike reserve are the same thing.

But definitely, the conditions for the bloodthirster to be in deep strike reserves is not met, which would mean that it cannot deep strike, but the codex overrules this.

And the rules for Deep Strike say you must start in Reserve. Since you were never in Reserve you don't meet the requirements to use any of he Deep Strike rules in the first place. So once again, you're randomly deciding to ignore elements of the Deep Strike rules without any written evidence to back up your claims.

The Rules for the BT say it arrives by deepstrike. You can therefore disregard the part before " arriving by deepstrike" and then follow the rules given there. Except for rolling for reserves, since the rule says that the BT arrives immediately.
You don't have to check if the BT is able to deepstrike since the rule plainly tells you that it does arrive by deepstrike. And your not placing it in reserve either so it doesn't matter what that is called.

And It should be able to change flight modes, because it doesn't say that it can't move. It says it cannot move any FURTHER. But you are allowed to make a move of 0 inches. so you can stand still and change flight modes at the beginning of your move.

From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

Its clear. If you want to claim that one part of the Deep Strike rules don't apply because the unit wasn't in Reserve, then you have claim that the entirety of the Deep Strike rules don't apply because the unit wasn't in Reserve. Trying to do otherwise is just randomly picking and choosing the rules you want to use with no support whatsoever.

I changed my answer to be more specific.

Still the same problem. You're randomly deciding to ignore parts of the rules because you claim the unit wasn't in Reserve while keeping parts of the rules that you couldn't use if the unit wasn't in Reserve to begin with. You need actual written support for your claims, and there is none.

And to sum up this and every other debate on the subject that has taken place since KhorneKin came out, House Rule it, ask the TOs about their House Rule, ask the FLGS their House Rule, don't count on it always being one way for every opponent and have a back up plan for the folks, like me, that think it has to have that turn to change Flight Modes as well.

This is 40k folks, we can change the rules we don't like with the opponent's permission and that is by far the best way to come at this until the FAQ comes out in a year or two.

I'm not randomly deciding to ignore parts. I'm not ignoring anything at all.

I'm applying the rule to arrive by deepstrike. That is the rule that is being used. It stands on it own. Whether or not a model is coming from reserves, or if can deepstrike has no bearing on that rule. That works because the codex tells me the BT "arrives by deepstrike".

So you take the BRB and read what "arriving by Deepstrike" does. And that rules does not actually cause any conflicts.

Even if the unit could never be placed in reserves and excplicitly could not deepstrike because some imaginary BRB rule said so. The codex doesn't care. It says: "It arrives by deepstrike".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arriving by deepstrike does not require you to be in reserve pior to deepstriking. It simply tells you how to deepstrike, once you get to do so. It doesn't care how you got to the deepstriking part in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You don't roll need to roll for arrival on a unit that already has arrived. This is the only part I can see that might be a pushing RAW a bit, but trying to roll for reserves here on something that arrives immediately just doesn't make any sense.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

Its clear. If you want to claim that one part of the Deep Strike rules don't apply because the unit wasn't in Reserve, then you have claim that the entirety of the Deep Strike rules don't apply because the unit wasn't in Reserve. Trying to do otherwise is just randomly picking and choosing the rules you want to use with no support whatsoever.

The Bloodthirster in this case is not deep striking using its Deep Strike rule (if it were you would have placed it into Deep Strike Reserves at the beginning of the game).

It is deep striking because of the Blood Tithe summoning.

So normally, the Bloodthirster would not be able to deep strike! (and its true, it is not rolled for in reserves and it is not coming from reserves)

BUT the Blood Tithe rule OVERRIDES this rule, and immediately summons the bloodthirster via deep strike...this has nothing to do with it being in deep strike reserves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, the 'and the unit must start the game in Reserve' is trumped by the codex rule and is not used at all.

Yeah if it was considered to be coming from reserves it would say so, just like in the rules for daemons summoned by conjuration powers.

Seriously lads? This is like the fifth thread. It's just dishonest at this stage. You have started with the answer you want , and are finding rules to fit it, instead of using rules to find an answer. The argument has changed so many times at this point, when one gets refuted you coincidentally find another one to use, instead of using it in the first place.

AFAIK this exact discussion has already been had (the deep strike != deepstrike reserves one) in the other threads, I seem to recall it reaching a conclusion as the BT argument abandoned it at one point to use the "it happens before the movement phase" one.

Just read the other 3 threads before continuing it here, it's getting repetitive.

i agree about not continuing it further, but clearly this is one of the questions that needs to be adressed via a faq, as the OP states.
So it's still kinda relevant to this thread, but for other reasons.

agreed

harkequin wrote:
Seriously lads? This is like the fifth thread. It's just dishonest at this stage. You have started with the answer you want , and are finding rules to fit it, instead of using rules to find an answer. The argument has changed so many times at this point, when one gets refuted you coincidentally find another one to use, instead of using it in the first place.

AFAIK this exact discussion has already been had (the deep strike != deepstrike reserves one) in the other threads, I seem to recall it reaching a conclusion as the BT argument abandoned it at one point to use the "it happens before the movement phase" one.

Just read the other 3 threads before continuing it here, it's getting repetitive.

Actually what's dishonest is chastising people for discussing the issues whilst at the same time dismissing some of the arguments out of hand, claiming they have been refuted.

I'd agree that there's little point in discussing it further though as things started going round in circles a long time ago. I think an FAQ would be helpful but I wouldn't be confident in one appering shortly, if at all. In the meantime the best course of action as with any rules dispute is going to be agree with your opponent how to play it. If you can't agree, either roll off for it or don't play them.

How many times must this debate detail a thread?

This thread is about compiling questions for a GW FAQ. The questions aren't here to be answered or debated by the community; they're here to be sent to GW for an official answer.

The likelihood and expediency of an actual answer is another thing entirely, but that shouldn't stop people from trying.

That all said, I don't have any new questions to add to this thread. The OP asks all the questions I can think of.

I think this is a good idea. I know it is a long shot, But there is nothing else we can do. It has been awhile since GW updated the FAQ