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Well maybe some people are just like me. I played CSM and when 7thedition hit, including the first few 7th Edition codices I was happy, really happy. Every new army wasn´t super strong, they all got nerfed overall. It was at that point when I thought about buying new models to aid my CSM Army, maybe even starting deamons or some other kind of allies. Then the Necron Codex came and I was like: "uhhhhhm why?" That book destroyed everything I hoped for. But I didn´t want to quit at that point. Maybe it will be an exception. Then Khorne Deamonkin came out and I didn´t like it. I´m not a fluff player, I just want my own Chaos Warband with all the gods I want to play not just one. But it was optional, so yeah no big deal. The only real problem I had was the fact that the next rumours said that there will be no new chaos book. Instead they will do another Book for one chaos god. I didn´t like that, and then the eldar hit. Buffed straight to hell and it was at that moment where I thought that I no longer want to play. So I started to search for some alternatives, guess what I haven´t found any. There are many games that I find cool but most of the time are super small games, where you only field around 10-20 models max, or they had a setting I don´t enjoy like realistic World War 2, or Star wars for example. Another difficult thing was to find players for that specific game. Whenever I found a game I was interested in, there were no players around where I live. So yeah as it seems I will most likely just stay with GW and wait for the time when my army might be on the top again, or if a competitor sees the light of the day that fits all my needs.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

 Runic wrote:
And still as a sidenote, a vocal minor community on the internet causing these losses is still simply untrue. I bet some would like to imagine it so, but sorry, you don't have such power.

A thousand times this... It seems like people on any forum want to feel like they have semblance of power or sway over their hobby/interest.

At the end of the day, it's not much more than a handful of users on a forum agreeing on the same gripes. There is so much more to the hobby than tournaments and maximizing your army list's power, but it's very easy to get tunnel vision when surrounded by like-minded gamers on a forum.

People who have been complaining about the game generally aren't even power gamers or people who try to maximise their lists, generally it's casual/theme/fluff players, because they're the ones screwed over most by the crappy rules. Competitive players will just play what's competitive.

To be honest I've seen most complaints in reference to tournament play and how broken cheese lists are. Friendly games will not see as big of a change from the new Eldar as the tournament scene, for fair reasons.

 clamclaw wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

 Runic wrote:
And still as a sidenote, a vocal minor community on the internet causing these losses is still simply untrue. I bet some would like to imagine it so, but sorry, you don't have such power.

A thousand times this... It seems like people on any forum want to feel like they have semblance of power or sway over their hobby/interest.

At the end of the day, it's not much more than a handful of users on a forum agreeing on the same gripes. There is so much more to the hobby than tournaments and maximizing your army list's power, but it's very easy to get tunnel vision when surrounded by like-minded gamers on a forum.

People who have been complaining about the game generally aren't even power gamers or people who try to maximise their lists, generally it's casual/theme/fluff players, because they're the ones screwed over most by the crappy rules. Competitive players will just play what's competitive.

To be honest I've seen most complaints in reference to tournament play and how broken cheese lists are. Friendly games will not see as big of a change from the new Eldar as the tournament scene, for fair reasons.

What about a fluffy craftworld list? 2 of the craft worlds would be quite strong now. Even biel-tan isn't bad.
It's weird to me that Ulthwe might be the weaker craftworld....

I didn't play many fluffy games with my CSM unless I used the SM codex. Alpha legion weren't well represented, but I don't want this to turn into a Chaos Dex thread. There has been quite enough of those since the 4th edition codex dropped

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Amayasu wrote:
Because every gaming system on the planet has a negative and vocal minority. And a minority scales with the size of the player base.

And coupled with the fact that that vocal minority continues to pay for and play the game means everything that comes out of their mouths is wasted.

Business don't care what you say, they care what you do ( or more specifically, don't do, as in "don't use their products").

People like, buy, and play 40k. Whining about it is pointless and only wastes everyone's time. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy.

Exalted for truth.

To the OP:

Take a look around the web for any forum dedicated to a franchise, fandom, or product, and you'll see the same story played out again and again. Threads of so-called "financial experts" showing the irrefutable truths the quarterly reports reveal, indicating the looming demise of a company, only to be proven wrong year after year. Self-appointed "game design gurus" showing how unquestionably broken and flawed the core of the experience is, with proposed fixes and patches that nobody else ever uses. Critics with detailed lists about why you should be ashamed for enjoying such an awful, terrible book or movie or game or meal. Not to mention the conspiracy theorists claiming every possible action taken by an entity, positive or otherwise, is being done exclusively to screw over the consumer.

The commonality here is the lack of anything resembling expertise or real, provable knowledge. It's an internet forum; it's not a place for truth or accountability, but rather of absolutes, subjectivity, and emotional response. The opinions here and from other sources online are just that; opinions, to be taken with the appropriate amount of scepticism. Seek the truth for yourself; you'll be happier and more well-informed for it.

Roknar wrote:
Pretty much every game Relic pushed out was great. Too bad they're gone now. All GW is releasing now is mobile junk, and I'm not exactly looking forward to eternal crusade.

There's Warhammer Total War, which I'm probably going to love. I was initially worried that I'd have to wait a bit for patches due to Total War Rome 2's disastrous launch (though they fixed up the game admirably), but Total War Atilla restored my faith in the Creative Assembly. And plus, Total War Rome 2's launch debacle was mostly SEGA's fault and I think Sanic Bum being the hilarious flop it was taught them some humility.

Although that's Fantasy Battle, not 40k.

For 40k, I'd rather see something like War games (total war's formula pretty much breaks down completely when you get to modern squad based warfare and leave big bricky formations behind), something like Red Dragon but 40k would be pretty sweet, though admittedly a base building RTS on Supreme Commander's scale would also be nice.

Back in the day there was no other good alternatives. I mean there was other systems like MTG, but no fantastic Wartable games except those from Games Workshop.

So Games Workshop is the most renowned of all the wargaming companies. Now we got other companies and new games coming out in a similar style. Theres both Infinity and Warmachine now. However, none has the same large scale as 40k.

Also, all wargaming enthusiasts have either played or at the very least heard of 40k and GW, so if they're trying to introduce a friend to a game they'll either tell them about 40k (which is still very easy to find) or try and get them into some of the other smaller games (which are harder to find, we have no infinity sellers near us).

 Kain wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Pretty much every game Relic pushed out was great. Too bad they're gone now. All GW is releasing now is mobile junk, and I'm not exactly looking forward to eternal crusade.

There's Warhammer Total War, which I'm probably going to love. I was initially worried that I'd have to wait a bit for patches due to Total War Rome 2's disastrous launch (though they fixed up the game admirably), but Total War Atilla restored my faith in the Creative Assembly. And plus, Total War Rome 2's launch debacle was mostly SEGA's fault and I think Sanic Bum being the hilarious flop it was taught them some humility.

Although that's Fantasy Battle, not 40k.

For 40k, I'd rather see something like War games (total war's formula pretty much breaks down completely when you get to modern squad based warfare and leave big bricky formations behind), something like Red Dragon but 40k would be pretty sweet, though admittedly a base building RTS on Supreme Commander's scale would also be nice.

I actually really liked Dawn of War 1 until Eldar became overpowered.
Dawn of War 2 is still something I'll play with friends. A few mods allows most of the races to be included too.

 clamclaw wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

 Runic wrote:
And still as a sidenote, a vocal minor community on the internet causing these losses is still simply untrue. I bet some would like to imagine it so, but sorry, you don't have such power.

A thousand times this... It seems like people on any forum want to feel like they have semblance of power or sway over their hobby/interest.

At the end of the day, it's not much more than a handful of users on a forum agreeing on the same gripes. There is so much more to the hobby than tournaments and maximizing your army list's power, but it's very easy to get tunnel vision when surrounded by like-minded gamers on a forum.

People who have been complaining about the game generally aren't even power gamers or people who try to maximise their lists, generally it's casual/theme/fluff players, because they're the ones screwed over most by the crappy rules. Competitive players will just play what's competitive.

To be honest I've seen most complaints in reference to tournament play and how broken cheese lists are. Friendly games will not see as big of a change from the new Eldar as the tournament scene, for fair reasons.

I didn't just mean about the Eldar dex, I meant in general. Shoddily written unbalanced rules affect fluffy players more. They could either end up with a crappy army or a ridiculously strong one just depending on what theme or models they happen to like. People who are really competitive will just play the most competitive list in their codex, models/theme be damned. I've seen a lot of Eldar players complaining that their fluffy Saim Hann Eldar list is now really powerful and they're worried people won't play them, where as people who play like... Termie heavy SM won't have much of a chance because termies are crap. Balanced rules would benifit everybody, even super fluffy theme players, contrary to the popular belief that fluffy players aren't bothered about rules balance.

 Jambles wrote:
Take a look around the web for any forum dedicated to a franchise, fandom, or product, and you'll see the same story played out again and again. Threads of so-called "financial experts" showing the irrefutable truths the quarterly reports reveal, indicating the looming demise of a company, only to be proven wrong year after year. Self-appointed "game design gurus" showing how unquestionably broken and flawed the core of the experience is, with proposed fixes and patches that nobody else ever uses. Critics with detailed lists about why you should be ashamed for enjoying such an awful, terrible book or movie or game or meal. Not to mention the conspiracy theorists claiming every possible action taken by an entity, positive or otherwise, is being done exclusively to screw over the consumer.

The commonality here is the lack of anything resembling expertise or real, provable knowledge. It's an internet forum; it's not a place for truth or accountability, but rather of absolutes, subjectivity, and emotional response. The opinions here and from other sources online are just that; opinions, to be taken with the appropriate amount of scepticism. Seek the truth for yourself; you'll be happier and more well-informed for it.

Just like all the naysayers that said TSR's days were numbered back in the day because they lost touch with their customers, just put out crap product after crap product because they expected their customers to just buy it because it had their name on it. Meanwhile the fanboys extolled all their virtues and how big they were and it was impossible for them to fall because they were the biggest and the best, and so on and how many people happily played their games, but didn't say anything about it while the numbers slowly slipped more and more. Then one day the company was on the auction block and suddenly the fanboys were at a loss for what happened and as if it was a complete surprise despite many voices stating it was happening and coming. Yeah it has happened before and it will happen again unfortunatel

Yep the internet is full of opinions and some of them are crazy, but that doesn't necessarily make them all wrong either. Wishful thinking can be as blinding on both sides of the equation, though. Some people hope GW fails, while others believe it will never fail. I don't really have an enmity against them, just sadness that the game world I loved has been squandered by them. I hope if the end comes another company pops in and gives the game the solid face lift and improvements it really needs. I might become a 40k buyer again at that point.

Skriker

Akiasura wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Pretty much every game Relic pushed out was great. Too bad they're gone now. All GW is releasing now is mobile junk, and I'm not exactly looking forward to eternal crusade.

There's Warhammer Total War, which I'm probably going to love. I was initially worried that I'd have to wait a bit for patches due to Total War Rome 2's disastrous launch (though they fixed up the game admirably), but Total War Atilla restored my faith in the Creative Assembly. And plus, Total War Rome 2's launch debacle was mostly SEGA's fault and I think Sanic Bum being the hilarious flop it was taught them some humility.

Although that's Fantasy Battle, not 40k.

For 40k, I'd rather see something like War games (total war's formula pretty much breaks down completely when you get to modern squad based warfare and leave big bricky formations behind), something like Red Dragon but 40k would be pretty sweet, though admittedly a base building RTS on Supreme Commander's scale would also be nice.

I actually really liked Dawn of War 1 until Eldar became overpowered.
Dawn of War 2 is still something I'll play with friends. A few mods allows most of the races to be included too.

Never said the Relic games weren't good, they were pretty fantastic as a whole. But the question of if they still have the capacity to make Dawn of War 3 remains very much unanswered.

I just wish somebody would come up with a dedicated last stand kind of game. I probably played that as much as the main game.

Even the third person horde version from space marine was pretty sweet.

 Kain wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Pretty much every game Relic pushed out was great. Too bad they're gone now. All GW is releasing now is mobile junk, and I'm not exactly looking forward to eternal crusade.

There's Warhammer Total War, which I'm probably going to love. I was initially worried that I'd have to wait a bit for patches due to Total War Rome 2's disastrous launch (though they fixed up the game admirably), but Total War Atilla restored my faith in the Creative Assembly. And plus, Total War Rome 2's launch debacle was mostly SEGA's fault and I think Sanic Bum being the hilarious flop it was taught them some humility.

Although that's Fantasy Battle, not 40k.

For 40k, I'd rather see something like War games (total war's formula pretty much breaks down completely when you get to modern squad based warfare and leave big bricky formations behind), something like Red Dragon but 40k would be pretty sweet, though admittedly a base building RTS on Supreme Commander's scale would also be nice.

I actually really liked Dawn of War 1 until Eldar became overpowered.
Dawn of War 2 is still something I'll play with friends. A few mods allows most of the races to be included too.

Never said the Relic games weren't good, they were pretty fantastic as a whole. But the question of if they still have the capacity to make Dawn of War 3 remains very much unanswered.

To be fair, GW isn't releasing any videogames, others are licensing their IP to make games themselves.

The outfit that did the original Dawn of War games no longer exists, and that's why we haven't seen a Dawn of War 3.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Pretty much every game Relic pushed out was great. Too bad they're gone now. All GW is releasing now is mobile junk, and I'm not exactly looking forward to eternal crusade.

There's Warhammer Total War, which I'm probably going to love. I was initially worried that I'd have to wait a bit for patches due to Total War Rome 2's disastrous launch (though they fixed up the game admirably), but Total War Atilla restored my faith in the Creative Assembly. And plus, Total War Rome 2's launch debacle was mostly SEGA's fault and I think Sanic Bum being the hilarious flop it was taught them some humility.

Although that's Fantasy Battle, not 40k.

For 40k, I'd rather see something like War games (total war's formula pretty much breaks down completely when you get to modern squad based warfare and leave big bricky formations behind), something like Red Dragon but 40k would be pretty sweet, though admittedly a base building RTS on Supreme Commander's scale would also be nice.

I actually really liked Dawn of War 1 until Eldar became overpowered.
Dawn of War 2 is still something I'll play with friends. A few mods allows most of the races to be included too.

Never said the Relic games weren't good, they were pretty fantastic as a whole. But the question of if they still have the capacity to make Dawn of War 3 remains very much unanswered.

To be fair, GW isn't releasing any videogames, others are licensing their IP to make games themselves.

The outfit that did the original Dawn of War games no longer exists, and that's why we haven't seen a Dawn of War 3.

Yeah, I think that for any future Warhammer 40,000 RTS games, we should perhaps not be deadset on recapturing DoW I and II and instead perhaps try something new. Like Sup Com or Wargames as I mentioned above.

Or perhaps a largely unique style; combining the very attrition based warfare of Supreme Commander and it's megalithic bases with the very in depth tactical nuances and squad based unit organization of wargames.

 Skriker wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
Take a look around the web for any forum dedicated to a franchise, fandom, or product, and you'll see the same story played out again and again. Threads of so-called "financial experts" showing the irrefutable truths the quarterly reports reveal, indicating the looming demise of a company, only to be proven wrong year after year. Self-appointed "game design gurus" showing how unquestionably broken and flawed the core of the experience is, with proposed fixes and patches that nobody else ever uses. Critics with detailed lists about why you should be ashamed for enjoying such an awful, terrible book or movie or game or meal. Not to mention the conspiracy theorists claiming every possible action taken by an entity, positive or otherwise, is being done exclusively to screw over the consumer.

The commonality here is the lack of anything resembling expertise or real, provable knowledge. It's an internet forum; it's not a place for truth or accountability, but rather of absolutes, subjectivity, and emotional response. The opinions here and from other sources online are just that; opinions, to be taken with the appropriate amount of scepticism. Seek the truth for yourself; you'll be happier and more well-informed for it.

Just like all the naysayers that said TSR's days were numbered back in the day because they lost touch with their customers, just put out crap product after crap product because they expected their customers to just buy it because it had their name on it. Meanwhile the fanboys extolled all their virtues and how big they were and it was impossible for them to fall because they were the biggest and the best, and so on and how many people happily played their games, but didn't say anything about it while the numbers slowly slipped more and more. Then one day the company was on the auction block and suddenly the fanboys were at a loss for what happened and as if it was a complete surprise despite many voices stating it was happening and coming. Yeah it has happened before and it will happen again unfortunatel

Yep the internet is full of opinions and some of them are crazy, but that doesn't necessarily make them all wrong either. Wishful thinking can be as blinding on both sides of the equation, though. Some people hope GW fails, while others believe it will never fail. I don't really have an enmity against them, just sadness that the game world I loved has been squandered by them. I hope if the end comes another company pops in and gives the game the solid face lift and improvements it really needs. I might become a 40k buyer again at that point.

Skriker

You make a very good example, well said. I would argue, though, that situation was fairly uncommon - like how many internet pundits have been saying for decades that DC Comics is on the verge of collapse, just because it was a popular target for slag? That said, it's still a good point, so I concede that to you.

To your second point, I agree with you that they aren't necessarily wrong either, but that's beside my point. My crux was that, regardless, one should be skeptical, and seek truth for yourself, or risk falling prey to the people that are wrong but claim not to be, which I would argue are the vast majority.

In all fairness TSR died because of changes in technology, CRPG's crushed pen and paper games, not consumer abuse.

ninety0ne wrote:
In all fairness TSR died because of changes in technology, CRPG's crushed pen and paper games, not consumer abuse.

5th edition DnD is doing just fine. World of darkness made quite a comeback as well after having issues too.

 Jambles wrote:
You make a very good example, well said. I would argue, though, that situation was fairly uncommon - like how many internet pundits have been saying for decades that DC Comics is on the verge of collapse, just because it was a popular target for slag? That said, it's still a good point, so I concede that to you.

To your second point, I agree with you that they aren't necessarily wrong either, but that's beside my point. My crux was that, regardless, one should be skeptical, and seek truth for yourself, or risk falling prey to the people that are wrong but claim not to be, which I would argue are the vast majority.

There are enough motives to believe GW may be currently treading into quite dangerous terrain right now. They are still a relatively solid company, generating profits and with no known debt, so they'll stick around for a while no matter how bad they do in the inmediate future. But the latest financial reports show a trend of declining sales and profits. That's no good in a market that seems to be growing at a healthy rate. I'd say it's a worrying sign that, while a specific market is growing steadily, its biggest company is actually shrinking.

As for the comics industry, I don't remember about DC Comics right now, but afaiac Marvel did find itself in a dire situation in the early 00s until the success of the film adaptations came to the rescue.

ninety0ne wrote:
In all fairness TSR died because of changes in technology, CRPG's crushed pen and paper games, not consumer abuse.

Um, no.

 Grimtuff wrote:

ninety0ne wrote:
In all fairness TSR died because of changes in technology, CRPG's crushed pen and paper games, not consumer abuse.

Um, no.

My casual research into sales numbers suggests otherwise, do you have better sales data? I'll admit I could have some confirmation bias in my research as I Remeber Pool of Radience pretty much began the doom of PnP gaming in my personal experience, but the data I looked at prior to posting suggested a "bad" CRPG release would move significantly more units than a highly succesful PnP release.
I did also consider after posting that perhaps falling birth rate would have created an environment that was not conducive to PnP gaming (being party based) and at the same time fertile for CRPG's.

 Runic wrote:

 Toofast wrote:


1. You do know that profit and revenue are 2 completely different things, right?
2. If unhappy customers don't cause a drop in sales, what does? The weather?
3. A quick glance at GWs past 2 yearly financial reports would show you that, adjusted for inflation, their REVENUE has dropped tens of millions of dollars.

1. I do, and I originally talked about profit, you switched over to revenue. Shall I inquire if you know the difference between profit and revenue just the same?
2. You don't know any other reason that might cause a drop in both revenue and profit than unhappy customers? Oh wow. I wonder if there's a point to even explaining.
3. And so has their net profit.

And still as a sidenote, a vocal minor community on the internet causing these losses is still simply untrue. I bet some would like to imagine it so, but sorry, you don't have such power.

In any case, I find you a bit odd. You talk about crushing other people in tournaments with your new and shiny Eldar, and at the same time you flame GW and the game in vaurious posts. What's up with that? Just a side question. You can also turn off your offensive tone if capable, it does nothing aside from collecting reports.

I talked about revenue because it's a better indication than profit. If you slash costs to the bone, release stuff at 4 times the pace and double the price, you're going to stay profitable, at least for a little while. However, when your revenue is sharply declining, cost cutting measures and price hikes can only fix the problem for so long. Eventually, the duct tape you stuck over that hole in the side of the ship is going to peel away and the ship is going to sink. GW has tried to cover up bullet wounds with band aids and so far, it has kept them profitable, although they've still seen a sharp decline in profit as well. If you think that the people complaining on the internet don't have anything to do with this loss of revenue and profit, I'm not sure what to tell you. Corrolation doesn't equal causation but we can make a fairly strong case based on logic and reason at this point.

I can play the game and still be unhappy with the company. This seems to be a position exclusive to GW defenders. People all over this state bashed Alabama's play calling in the sugar bowl. Nobody told us we should all become Auburn fans. Playing the game and calling GW on their bull**** are not mutually exclusive so stop using straw man arguments like that.

I must not be getting reported that much because I have yet to receive a single PM or ban from the forum in all the time I've spent posting on here. Report away, it isn't going to magically fix GWs business model or make your position any more defensible.

ninety0ne wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

ninety0ne wrote:
In all fairness TSR died because of changes in technology, CRPG's crushed pen and paper games, not consumer abuse.

Um, no.

My casual research into sales numbers suggests otherwise, do you have better sales data? I'll admit I could have some confirmation bias in my research as I Remeber Pool of Radience pretty much began the doom of PnP gaming in my personal experience, but the data I looked at prior to posting suggested a "bad" CRPG release would move significantly more units than a highly succesful PnP release.
I did also consider after posting that perhaps falling birth rate would have created an environment that was not conducive to PnP gaming (being party based) and at the same time fertile for CRPG's.

Well, I cant' speak for the whole world, but I'm happy to explain why we quit our RPG nights.

From Grade 5 until I was well into college (say, up to the early 90s), I played RPGs once a week, every week. I bought so many Role Playing games and supplements that my collection literally fills two 7' tall by 2.5' wide shelves. It was a glorious thing. Computer games came, but they were just not as fulfilling. Even though I avidly played Pool of Radiance (the original SSI release with 2D isometric graphics) and all of the successor games (like Curse of the Azure Bonds), it was not social, and was essentially just a dungeon crawling. The Dialogue is as much something to skip over as to read, after the fifth instalment. There was really little role-playing.

Then, far more immersive, and sometimes multiplayer games, with better graphics came along. These were time sinks, but still didn't compete with real, paper and dice role-play. It didn't have the magic of a character sheet, of pencil doodles of your erstwhile heroes, the poetic beauty of writing your own character background. So still we gamed, even though certainly these appealed to us and siphoned off monies that we spent on RPGs and TT wargames.

Then MMORPGs came. Everquest. Anarchy Online. Dark Age of Camelot. WarCaft. THAT was really the death knell for us. Suddenly, you were in an RPG-ish world (though much more grindy than questy), where you could develop your character, and your character had the freedom to go anywhere and do anything they wanted. You could make your character look and feel, and they could talk and socialize to people as you chose. There was no setup, no "Come ON -- what do you want to do?" Character death just meant a respawn and a loss of a little bit of time. It was just a far more efficient way of role-playing; you could play with anyone at any time, with the only caveat being that the adventures weren't really that interesting once you explored all the content.

In a sense, if MMORPGs hadn't come out, we'd probably be playing more 40k, too.

Now, most of us are done with that part of our lives, and I don't think anyone that I know still plays Warcraft. But still, it forever changed the course of our nerd entertainment bucks.

I wholly agree with your chronology and conclusions Talys, I wasn't trying to say that SSI's Pool of Rad. was anything more than the first glimpse of the end for me. We even added the "save game spell" to our PnP gaming after being exposed to such a ground breaking CRPG. Id go further to say it was excellent marketing by TSR to sell the FR setting: we even moved from Greyhawk to the Realms as a result of PoolRad.

I've found the older I've grown, the more my group of friends have drifted steadily back towards TT games and TCG's. The social aspect is the biggest part, and I'm all but burned out on MMO's and the grindfest that comes with them (will I ever experience the magic that was vanilla WoW again?!)

Maybe it's because we've matured? Or the gaming culture has shifted? Not really sure, but it's a welcome change.

Talys wrote: It was just a far more efficient way of role-playing

Eh, MMORPGs took all the role out of role playing.

They basically just streamlined roleplaying for the roll players. As in the people who just wanted to superficially pretend to be a knight and slay dragons by comparing stats and tossing dice. Ie, they took out everything but the combat.

Which, as it turns out, is a massively successful business model. They stripped RPGs down to complicated first-person shooters, which they knew people already liked. And, in turn, first person shooters have now turned into MMORPGs where you level your characters.

Don't get me wrong. My friends and I were in on the earliest days of Everquest (we happened to be "lucky" enough to know people who worked for both Verant and AT&T where the EQ servers were hosted so we had a ton of free accounts). But it never replaced our pen and paper gaming nights, which we still got together for every Sunday night religiously.

The only thing that made our pen and paper nights all but die off was getting older, lol. I spent a decade in the Marines, and my friends got married and had kids.

So, how does GW stay in business? Because 3/4's of the people who rag on GW still buy their stuff. People also complain too much. 40K is an awesome game and GW makes good stuff. When you over-analyse something, it takes the fun out of it. Just play the game and have fun, man.

The sad truth is, for anyone who truly loved what 40K used to be, it's already dead. The fact that it's still moving doesn't mean it's growing, that's just the parasites feasting off its ever shrinking bulk.

Also, Happy Earth Day!

 Boggy Man wrote:

Also, Happy Earth Day!

Ooo I had forgotten this was today. Apparently it's also the peak of the Lyrid meteor shower tonight.

After reading about all this Eldar nonsense going on in the forums, I'm half expecting to look up into the sky and see this tonight:

 Boggy Man wrote:
The sad truth is, for anyone who truly loved what 40K used to be, it's already dead. The fact that it's still moving doesn't mean it's growing, that's just the parasites feasting off its ever shrinking bulk.

Also, Happy Earth Day!

Very true. It's dead to me and the magic is gone. It now just seems kind of silly to me.

 PoxxxLord86 wrote:
So, how does GW stay in business? Because 3/4's of the people who rag on GW still buy their stuff.

Citation needed.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Boggy Man wrote:
The sad truth is, for anyone who truly loved what 40K used to be, it's already dead. The fact that it's still moving doesn't mean it's growing, that's just the parasites feasting off its ever shrinking bulk.

Also, Happy Earth Day!

Very true. It's dead to me and the magic is gone. It now just seems kind of silly to me.

If its dead to you and silly (and the magic is gone), then why do you continue to frequent forums threads dedicated to the game? Not trying to be mean or anything, but its obvious you still have more than just a passing interest in the game, so to say its dead and silly seems a bit disingenuous.