Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is there a distinction between heresy and curiousity regarding heretical material, in the average (or even slightly above average) civilian? 

Is the act of independently learning about chaos, taint, etc. in the interest of recognising taint and how it functions, frowned upon? Dangerous?
I'm curious of how such activity viewed by different folks: Guard, general population, etc?

Is it even feasible for most folk to learn these things without going gak-the-bath crazy?

Is it possible for someone without formal training to research these things without endangering themselves regarding:
A) Inquisition?
B) Taint itself?

 Assuming they had access to any materials, and no anterior motive. Admittedly unlikely, but t's human nature to want to know how things work, often without secondary motive.

For example (if they're free and laying about) I quite often read newspapers that push views or agenda that I deeply disagree with, because it offers insight into why others hold those views. I imagine there would be folk out there in the 40K setting who given the chance would put their finger in that particular socket as well.

The question arose because whilst playing through a Rogue Trader RPG campaign, due to a variety of mismanagement and short-sighted decisions, our Seneschal has found himself watching over a mighty stack of some else's books on Chaos, awful badness and warp gods. He doesn't have any real say in what happens, but it raised the initial queries of this topic.

They would be wiped from the face of the galaxy. No citizen is allowed to know of chaos

Really no grey area, huh?

Most guardsmen are killed for being exposed to chaos, a lowly citizen on a hive planet will go unnoticed if they 'disappear' from their homes after trying to learn about chaos. A citizen wanting to know more about it is a heretic, and executed. No excuses, they seek to become a traitor and will die as one. The Inquisition doesn't care who you are, planetary governor, Warden Colonel, you try and learn about chaos, you will be executed. (Excluding important branches of government such as space marines, but the chapters will deal with their members).

Isn't there almost a double-problem, in that if you recognise that someone is learning about Chaos, and report them, you'd have to know what it was you were reporting to begin with...?

ow. my head

Everyone in the area might get executed for chances of Chaos taint. I mean, if you hear your neighbor chanting and acting different, you would probably assume something was up. Most citizens might not even know what chaos taint is, so news of the taint might appear only when somebody sprouts a couple tentacles. Pretty much the Inquisition doesn't care about casualties, as long as one true heretic is slain. If a taint is spread throughout enough of the planet, most leaders will either send scores of guardsmen to clean it up, or wipe the planet of the face of the universe.

Aye. Okay, I'm seeing the issue of subscribing to Practical Lunatic Monthly and sharing copies about, but I'm really talking more of a "That thing ate my cat, I'm wondering what is was..." level of curiosity.
Not with actual intent to redecorate your house with living giblets or actively join a cult.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Aye. Okay, I'm seeing the issue of subscribing to Practical Lunatic Monthly and sharing copies about, but I'm really talking more of a "That thing ate my cat, I'm wondering what is was..." level of curiosity.
Not with actual intent to redecorate your house with living giblets or actively join a cult.

Think of it this way, on Armageddon the Inquisition started executing Imperial Guardsmen whose only interaction with Chaos was to fight against it.

The general population is allowed to know nothing. But higher ups know about it so they can keep an eye on things.

Unless you were allowed to do research into this, by being a member of the Inquisition, you couldn't do it.

It might be possible to research certain subjects without getting tainted, but the nature of chaos is impossible to predict and effects can vary from person to person. So its far better to be safe than sorry and just ban everything. A climate of allowing questions to be asked and allowing the seeking of answers is dangerous, because the answers or even asking the question can lead to corruption.

Say you have your curious student who suddenly decides he wants to research Chaos. He does so, looking through some relatively harmless tomes. But he eventually stumbles across a hidden method for daemon summoning in the pages, and the temptation grows within him like a cancer. Eventually he is compelled to enact the ritual just by his curiosity, and so a world is lost to daemonic incursion. And if not him, it would be the next guy, or the next. Even worse if he writes down the method in plainer writing to make it easier to understand and passes it on.

Ignorance is bliss in 40k. Knowledge can be extremely dangerous, and the dangers far outweigh the benefits if everyone just had free access.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Aye. Okay, I'm seeing the issue of subscribing to Practical Lunatic Monthly and sharing copies about, but I'm really talking more of a "That thing ate my cat, I'm wondering what is was..." level of curiosity.
Not with actual intent to redecorate your house with living giblets or actively join a cult.

Pretty much any look into chaos is heresy. The Inquisition won't care if it killed your entire planet, but left no signs and you just wanted to find out what it was. Leave it alone and let someone who is actually permitted to know what's what risk his neck out there. Civilians don't have access to whatever they want, they are oppressed, and can get executed pretty quickly if they act out of the norm.

If you've ever read 1984, imagine that

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Aye. Okay, I'm seeing the issue of subscribing to Practical Lunatic Monthly and sharing copies about, but I'm really talking more of a "That thing ate my cat, I'm wondering what is was..." level of curiosity.
Not with actual intent to redecorate your house with living giblets or actively join a cult.

The thing is, that's actually a very dangerous question to ask when the answer is "daemon".

Intent is irrelevant. Chaos will corrupt you in the end. Its a disease that is incredibly virilant with no cure. The only possible method of combat is isolating it completely.

There are a few problems with the notion of just being curious about chaos. In the Imperium there is no gray area when it comes to chaos. If you are aware of it and do not have the jurisdiction then you are executed for heresy. If you find yourself knowing more about the forbidden lore then you start to be drawn towards chaos itself and become corrupted. You start to yearn for more information and start to seek others who are the same. Eventually, you're full blown heretic. Inquisitors are trained to resist chaos but since you are talking about civilians then there's no inherit resistance. Corruption would take place. Again, there's no grey line between the two. If you aren't a space marine or an inquisitor or a really high ranking official then you're more than likely a heretic and killed outright.

Hope that helps

 Inkubas wrote:
Inquisitors are trained to resist chaos

Most inquisitors tend to become radical in the end of their career even if they are trained.
The question is not "Would I become tainted by Chaos ?" but "When will I become tainted by Chaos ?"

curiosity itself is considered heretical.

the IoM has a distinct distrust of knowledge for knowledges sake, to say they belive "ignorance is bliss" is an understatement in the least.



if you ask "so what ate my cat" you'd be swiftly told to not question such things, and to "be strong in your ignorance!"

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Really no grey area, huh?

Nope. Life is cheap in the Imperium. Why take any chances when your replacement is easily available and there are no moral issues involved? If you are even suspected of curiosity you will be executed with the same lack of hesitation that you would throw out a plate of leftovers instead of wondering if that really is a bit of mold or if you're just imagining it. In fact, there would probably be even less hesitation since the plate of moldy leftovers has much more value to you than you have to the Imperium.

(You will, of course, be executed as cheaply as possible. Lasgun batteries can be recharged for a trivial cost. Bolter rounds are more valuable than your life.)

Thanks so much guys, that's really (I'm not sure if the word is helpful or heinously depressing)!

I guess "blessed ignorance" and "the road to hell" are very applicable in 40K.

Couple more idle questions, whilst you're here:

Is it still the case that any/all IG fighting chaos get wiped out? I'd have thought that would be very difficult to maintain long term (and contradictory to a couple of the BL series). Though not beyond scope...

What's the lowest level of hierarchy that folk are allowed to think about this? The variably useful Uplifting Primer has details on spotting taint, but outside of military and inquisition (plus weird cases like rogue traders), that's it? No banana?

I've never read 1984, much to my shame, but I am seeing a lot of unhappy parallels with situations in North Korea.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Thanks so much guys, that's really (I'm not sure if the word is helpful or heinously depressing)!

Is it still the case that any/all IG fighting chaos get wiped out? I'd have thought that would be very difficult to maintain long term (and contradictory to a couple of the BL series). Though not beyond scope...

What's the lowest level of hierarchy that folk are allowed to think about this? The variably useful Uplifting Primer has details on spotting taint, but outside of military and inquisition (plus weird cases like rogue traders), that's it? No banana?

I've never read 1984, much to my shame, but I am seeing a lot of unhappy parallels with situations in North Korea.

Two comments
1. to say that executing entire guard regiments because of possible chaos taint would be difficult to maintain is to underestimate how many guardsmen there are, killing a few million guardsmen in any situation is usually considered acceptable losses.

2. Pretty much anyone outside of the inquisition cant come anywhere close to knowing anything about chaos, That being said it would be pretty difficult for the Administratum on every world to scrutinize every citizen. You are skipping a step between upstanding citizen and chaos acolyte, and that is heretic. Citizens are encouraged to report Heresy, and that could include chaos worship, but isn't strictly limited to that. Heresy is most likely defined as deviation from the imperial doctrine and cult. Meaning its just a heretical to associate with tau in an unsanctioned way as it would be to worship Slanesh. It is perfectly permissible for the average citizen to be aware of what heresy is and how to find it, even if they are ignorant of chaos.

As an aside, 1984 is basically what is happening in north Korea, Keep in mind it was written in the 40's in a post WWII society, and it was a criticism of the rise of socialism and communism, and what would happen if autocracy were applied to these ideas. and that is basically what happened in north Korea, true totalitarian autocratic dictatorship (a single person in complete and absolute control of government policy dictating every aspect of the average citizens life) applied to soviet, and by extension, Chinese communism. but the average level of scrutiny and oversite for an imperial citizen would vary, and mostly likely be much lower than that depicted in 1984. but n some worlds (hive, shrine, ministorum worlds) it is about that level.

What an Inquisitor says is what goes, until other Inquisitors get their nose in his business, or other rather important people show up (chapter master for example) so if an Inquisitor decides a couple of regiments are too exposed to chaos, down they go to the firing line. Casualty amounts aren't an issue to the Inquisition. These are people that blow up entire world's if that is what is deemed necessary to happen. No real guardsman will likely get to go off scotch free from one too many encounters with Chaos.

 GKTiberius wrote:
Citizens are encouraged to report Heresy, and that could include chaos worship, but isn't strictly limited to that. Heresy is most likely defined as deviation from the imperial doctrine and cult. Meaning its just a heretical to associate with tau in an unsanctioned way as it would be to worship Slanesh. It is perfectly permissible for the average citizen to be aware of what heresy is and how to find it, even if they are ignorant of chaos.

At the very least this. If your local ruler and priest hasn't told you what to look out for you have no idea what sort of behavior to report. You might not know about Chaos (as in the gods and daemons) but you know it's heresy to offer praise to others than the Emperor and the Imperial Saints - that means you know some debased people can be seduced to worship false gods. You might not know exact details on very many things but you have strictly defined things that ARE fine to know, so that you may better report people with odd ideas.

But the idea of executing whole populations is absurd even in the GrimDark 40K. The traitor legions wouldn't even have to attack anyone, they could just transmit a challenge in the name of the Ruinous Powers across a planet. Blam, everyone needs to be executed. They just heard names. No, there has to be some sort of limits on what's deemed too much to know.

 Peregrine wrote:
(You will, of course, be executed as cheaply as possible. Lasgun batteries can be recharged for a trivial cost. Bolter rounds are more valuable than your life.)

Then why don't Commissars use laspistols?

The point of them blamming a Guardsman isn't just to punish him for cowardice/incompetence. It is also to motivate other Guardsmen into not doing what he or she just did and the firepower of a bolt pistol helps make that point so much better. Nothing says "You better do as you are told or else" like a fellow trooper exploding and a loud boom to go with it.

Plus, Lasbolts are one of the few thing flak armor can stop. Wouldn't want the heretic to get away, would you?

What if the Commissar rolls a 2 to wound?

It's risky for a member of the ACTUAL INQUISITION to be found knowing too much about Chaos. Other Inquisitors can report them to the local Ordos and have them sanctioned for such. Sure, it's expected for an Inquisitor to know about such things, but even for them the official stance is that it's possible to know to much. An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

"A questioning servant is more dangerous than an ignorant heretic"
"The difference between heresy and treachery is ignorance."
"Reason begets doubt; Doubt begets heresy."
"Thought begets heresy; Heresy begets retribution."
"Reason is the cloak of Traitors"
"To question is to doubt."
"Blessed is the mind too small for doubt."
"The seed of heresy rests in the minds of reasonable men"
"The truly wise trust in blind faith."
"Knowledge is power, hide it well."
"There are no answers. Only Death."

That tells you enough about the Imperium I would guess.

I am pretty sure 'curiosity' is a capital crime in the Imperium. Curiosity leads to heresy, so the Inquisition does not distinguish between it. The Imperium is very strict in covering up any knowledge of Chaos (to the point of exterminating entire populations and IG regiments after Chaos invasions) Extermination does not seem to happen always though. It likely depends on the Inquisitor making the decision.

This side of the canon always gets me. How on earth did they run the sabbat worlds crusade (in which billions of guardsmen are fully aware of chaos), or for that matter ANY other crusade or campaign that deals with chaos? It makes absolutely no sense lore wise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is hugely contradictory!

 Ashiraya wrote:
What if the Commissar rolls a 2 to wound?

Commissars are so good at killing Guardsmen that they are just removed as casualties. If only they could kill the enemy so well.

So, theoretically, if you convinced a commissar that the enemy were all belligerent guardsmen, you could make the most powerful fighting force to exist.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So, theoretically, if you convinced a commissar that the enemy were all belligerent guardsmen, you could make the most powerful fighting force to exist.

How do you THINK space Marines are really made? all that other jazz? just a smoke screen!

Your curiosity is heresy.