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2015/04/30 02:23:42
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
The boys still live so only the trucks are killed.
The rule reads - Vehicle or Building - Devastating Hit: The model suffers a penetrating hit that causes it to lose D6+6 Hull Points instead of 1. No saves of any kind are allowed against this hit.
This only applies to the vehicle model not the units inside just like a normal penetrating hit.
Umm. The vehicles are open topped, so the No Escape (?) rule is in play. Also, the vehicle suffers a 'penetrating hit', so there is a roll on the pen chart, resolved at +2, so the likelihood of an open topped vehicle blowing up is pretty decent.
2015/04/30 03:00:55
Subject: Re:Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Yriel. I read your blog. Prior to posting. I was dismissive. My apologies. I was using hyperbole as well. Again... my bad. However my point-of-view differs SIGNIFICANTLY as a non Eldar player.
Winningest Armies at adepticon per Torrent of Fire.
Eldar #2 behind Imperial Knights.
Now since Eldar were MORE popular than IKs one can argue that there are more chances for them to loose and thus NOT be the WINNINGEST
Refuting math-hammer is like refuting statistics. Believe what you will but math is math.
Regarding your arguments to D weapons that they're "limited and counterable effects" [paraphrasing]
- Lets look at the Orks. We have access to 1 Force weapon that can cause ID the weird boy's staff (HQ). And we have one ranged weapon that can cause ID. It's range is 12" (The Tellyporta Blasta also on an HQ) and is 50 points. Where as your newly minted WK can out shoot a 770 pt stompa and out melee him, depending on your preference. Plus he can only be ID'd by ID weapons and D weapons. Gonna be kinda hard for a stompa to charge and win don't ya think?
I understand your love of the space elves. Theyre awesome. Their models kick but and the eldar painters seem soooo good. Their rules are over the top unarguably spectacular. Just don't think you're a superior player when you wipe the board of orks or DA or Sisters or any of the ghetto codexes. Also don't think gosh I just out played that Tau player when deep striking no scatter D-Flamers into his backfield turn 2 on a 2+.
I like your blog BTW. Well written. Just a little.... hmmmm not so much my opinion.
2015/04/30 04:38:50
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
blaktoof wrote: I cannot help but wonder that if certain major tournament formats, like itc, would finally leave all of 6th edition behind in terms of not only army building but mainly how you determine victory conditions- that the outcry against new armies wouldn'y be so much.
A lot of people bothered by this are more upset because certain tournament formats favor 6th edition win rules like FB and denying FB rather than maelstorm objectives etc which are the actual rules for 7th. The 4-5 GC WK army is powerful but becomes less so when the game is not about FB/FB denial and more about the objectives.
The new codexes coming out are "balanced", whether you agree or not, around the rules of 7th including force selection (there are no limits on detachments/formations, and unbound is something that is not optional in the core rules..) and the 7th edition mechanics for determining the outcome of a game, not some weird hybrid of 6th/7th that still favors the deathstar game from last edition.
I think the amount of nerdrage would be much lower, if the game was played in the current edition, and a WK/IK/whatever list- alibeit powerful, would be on the backfoot to a list that was built to control objectives as it would have a limited amount of units that it can choose to deal with each turn do to its low model count from being high cost powerful models,and would have to risk splitting force etc. A 1850 game with 4 wks is not necessarily fun to some people, but in ITC format is powerful, in normal 7th edition its pretty average. Yeah you probably will not table it, but it is going to have a very hard time scoring maelstorm points versus most TAC armies built for 7th.
stop playing 6.7 and just play 7th edition.
First of all, you might want to go to your local GW and get a refund of your rules book as your copy seems to be missing the parts where FB and Eternal War missions are still in.
Secondly, "just play 7th, bro" is not an argument. It's a preference. The argument would be the part where you try to convince people why your preference is better.
Thirdly, what mostly resembles an argument in your post is the part where you say 4 WKs suck in Maelstrom missions. To that I refer you to my first point as well as Wikipedia's entry on 'Straw Man Argument.' Also, "the books are balanced; I'm right, you're wrong!" Seriously? You must try harder.
And, finally, put your money where your mouth is and set up a no-comp, no-holds-barred 7th edition GT and see how many people actually want to come. You might as well argue to you're blue in the face about how everyone should go to baseball matches, but baseball is stupid and the beer's too expensive, so I'd rather do something else instead. Very few people are interested in playing what you call "true 7th edition" so they just don't instead. Sucks for you, deal with it.
So you like deathstars and got offended unnecessarily, got it.
You can pretend I did not make a point, but complaining about balance of a book that is written for a rules set that is not actually used by most tournament players is asinine.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/30 04:48:09
2015/04/30 05:29:13
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
@blaktoof and Thud
C'mon, guys. The original topic is impact on tourneys, so can we leave off the ... I don't wanna offend by using derogatory terms, but ... " non productive discourse"?
I know one San Diego tourney that has posted , "No formations." Dice something or other games. iven how Dire Avenger Shrine and Aspect Host look, I might asert this seems to be an effect ... of both the Necron and elvish books.
"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.
"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013
Has there even been enough time to see them play in a tournament?
Also I played some Eldar with a Lynx at the BSB this past weekend. Large blasts of D is scary It's a challenge but my 4++ KFF stopped 5 of the 7 D hits on my gargantuan squiggy. And with the -1 on the D chart its even less hard hitting. Anyhting the Eldar had that would insta kill my dudes before that is now D... still insta kills my dudes. It actually has less of a chance with the -1 on the D chart since a S10 hit wounds on a 2+ while the D wounds on a 3+.
Got a hard Eldar D weapon to crack, throw Mega Nobz at it. That doesn't work? Throw more and shoot it dead for good measure.
It's scary yes but manageable. I mean I placed 6th out of 54. Only one Eldar player placed above me with serpent spam which is now gone.
Also banning formations takes away the only way some armies can function in a tournament environment; I'm looking at you orks. I for one would not attend that tournament.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/30 05:41:33
All my work is done using StyleX, Professional Model Tools
http://www.stylexhobby.com
My 1850 pt. Ork army: Big Boss Badonk-a-Donk and 'da Dakka Dudez Eye of Terror San Diego Tournament: Best Painted
Game Empire Pasadena RTT : Best Painted x 4
Bay Area Open: 2nd Best Presentation
Anime Expo '14: Best Presentation/Hobbyist
Feast of Blades Qualifier: Best Presentation(Perfect Score)
2015/04/30 06:56:01
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Oh I should add. I am running a tourney (my first) on May 16th. We are in a town of 3000 but there are 8 - 10 of us. Craftworld is in. So I can report back if the Eldar player decides to use it.
Rules:
1250
- No SuperHeavies (ie knights)
- No FW - No LoW
The low points and no knights were mainly for two of our new members who have smaller armies. (Tau and CSM). So.... We'll see. My Terrain and data sheet are in a seperate thread in this forum "New TO" looking for advice if you have any.
2015/04/30 06:56:38
Subject: Re:Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
doktor_g wrote: Yriel. I read your blog. Prior to posting. I was dismissive. My apologies. I was using hyperbole as well. Again... my bad. However my point-of-view differs SIGNIFICANTLY as a non Eldar player.
Winningest Armies at adepticon per Torrent of Fire.
Eldar #2 behind Imperial Knights.
Now since Eldar were MORE popular than IKs one can argue that there are more chances for them to loose and thus NOT be the WINNINGEST
Refuting math-hammer is like refuting statistics. Believe what you will but math is math.
Regarding your arguments to D weapons that they're "limited and counterable effects" [paraphrasing]
- Lets look at the Orks. We have access to 1 Force weapon that can cause ID the weird boy's staff (HQ). And we have one ranged weapon that can cause ID. It's range is 12" (The Tellyporta Blasta also on an HQ) and is 50 points. Where as your newly minted WK can out shoot a 770 pt stompa and out melee him, depending on your preference. Plus he can only be ID'd by ID weapons and D weapons. Gonna be kinda hard for a stompa to charge and win don't ya think?
I understand your love of the space elves. Theyre awesome. Their models kick but and the eldar painters seem soooo good. Their rules are over the top unarguably spectacular. Just don't think you're a superior player when you wipe the board of orks or DA or Sisters or any of the ghetto codexes. Also don't think gosh I just out played that Tau player when deep striking no scatter D-Flamers into his backfield turn 2 on a 2+.
I like your blog BTW. Well written. Just a little.... hmmmm not so much my opinion.
Well, thanks for your post and feedback, I do appreciate it. If you are up to it, I'd like it if you can email me at mortetvie13@gmail.com and provide me with your alternate/differing point of view and arguments for that point of view. I'd be happy to post it and see if/how that changes my point of view. Also, I'd like to point out that I am not necessarily ONLY an Eldar player-Tyranids were actually my first and favorite army! Who owns 50 Tyranids Warriors? *this guy* =(. I have also been rocking Tau Farsight Enclaves with lotsa Tau styled Crisis Suits =).
Regarding Orks:
Spoiler:
Regarding Orks... Orks kind of just have a hard time against everything these days so comparing them to Eldar is not the best way to gauge Eldar power (like comparing a puppy to a wolf-they are in different leagues at this point). That phenomenon is because GW failed at writing the Ork codex (among others) rather than Eldar being over the top good. Indeed, there was a point in time where Orks were a respected and feared army on the table top, but I don't think this is one of those times in their history. I actually think the current Ork book doesn't do them any favors at all and possibly the only viable way to play Orks IMO is to spam scouting Battle Wagons with lotsa Orks or to play Greentide. I will concede that Orks generally don't seem to have any really good answers to a lot of the nasty things out there but that only makes them an especially poor comparison to Eldar. With that said, the Stompa being 700ish points getting owned by a 300 point Wraith Knight, well, perhaps the Wraith Knight should be more expensive but perhaps the Stompa is overpriced? Maybe Eldar are not "OP" but Orks are "UP" (under powered, just coined it, Trade mark-me). So ultimately, comparing Eldar against badly written army books is not the best measure of how strong Eldar are =(. However, Mike Fox seems to be having a lot of success with them so more power to him.
Regarding Eldar as a basis for winning:
Spoiler:
Anyway, not to toot my own horn, but if you look at the majority of my lists I take to GTs, they are generally not rocking the cookie cutter Eldar net lists. Therefore, I WOULD like to think that skill is involved when I do beat another player, regardless of their army-especially at the top tables.For example, my list for the past 2 GTs included: Farseer, 2 Spirit Seers, 8 Wraith Blades with a Wave Serpent, 2 Dire Avenger units in serpents, 2x3 Jetbikes, 2 Wraith Knights, Baron, Dark Eldar Warriors and I finished top 3 as far as battle points go with my only losses being very close games that could have gone either way at the end. I think the only hard things in the lists were really the 3 serpents and 2 Wraith Knights-and those things actually died pretty badly lol. Also, I played against some solid armies such as Flyrants, Space Marines, Cent star, White Scars, Serpent spam w/ Seer Counsel, Tau, Necrons, IG and I think one very unfortunate Ork player (sorry to whoever that was).
So while I do like Eldar, just because I play them does not mean my victories are due to using Eldar rather than skill-if that is what you are implying? Because I also play other armies such as Tyranids, Tau, Thousand Sons and many many more-and I play them against other strong armies like Serpent spam with a side of Knights-so believe me, I feel the pain of anyone that has to play with a sub par codex. However, when I see a strong list across from me, I think of what I need to do to win the mission and hang in there until I do. More often than not, I win because of that ability to play to the mission rather than because of what army I play as or against =/. With that in mind, I can look at the times I lost and sometimes it felt like it was because I played against a stronger army but really, it was because I didn't play as conservatively or as focused on the mission at hand as I could have. Even when I played my Thousand Sons in various tournaments against other stronger armies!
So to finally address your point of using Eldar, including the use of D-Scythes-it still takes skill to win. You still have to drop them in the right location and against the right target. But once they drop, they are done for the game. They might as well be a one-shot weapon. Also, I believe that Tau are probably one of the best counters to such a unit with the amount of interceptor they can have-as are any units with a strong invul save. So overall, I don't think Eldar are at the point where Grey Knights/SW were in 5th, for example, where there were almost 50% GK or SW armies. I also don't think Eldar are a point-click-win army, do you?
Regarding mathhammer and statistics:
Spoiler:
Now regarding statistics and math-hammer, statistics and math-hammer can only get you so far-especially if they are not properly analyzed and presented. For example, one can point out that X number of Bikes with Scatter Lasers can do Y shots which amount to Z wounds and therefore they are unstoppable/going to wipe the table. However, those numbers do not consider either (1) the skill of either player; (2) the components of each army; (3) the chance that all of those shots will actually be able to be directed at a specific target due to range/los restrictions; and, (4) various other circumstances that come up in real life gameplay. I certainly know that I've fallen into the trap of making a list thinking "math says I should do this many wounds a turn, it will be GLORIOUS" only to be disappointed with reality because my opponent rolled exceptionally well or I played exceptionally poorly, or any other number of circumstances!
Now Eldar being the second most popular army MAY be indicative of them being super strong, but it is not necessarily indicative of Eldar's power level. If I read your data correctly, for example, Eldar were just 15% of LVO (rounding up) which means that 85% of the playing field was non-Eldar. Likewise, at Adepticon, Eldar were only 30 out of about 160ish players which is just 18% which means that 82% of the other players were non-Eldar. When presented in another light, Eldar don't appear to be dominating the meta as much as those linked charts suggest.
So with all of that said, people are stating how "OP, point-click-win" Eldar are, and they are using scenarios that are not necessarily indicative of what one can realistically expect to see in casual or competitive play. Also, Space Marines are still pulling ahead of Eldar, so where are the people complaining about SM being OP? Are SMOP? Looking forward with this new codex, I think we need to at least see how things develop in the tournament scene to actually see what happens and have real world experience/data in terms of what the new codex does to the meta. Until then, I am going to maintain my position of Eldar not being OP. I still welcome other people's arguments and am not opposed to having my mind changed by compelling arguments/evidence.
Overall, I think a lot of the reactions from people regarding Eldar being "OP" are what they think Eldar will do to their armies/how they normally play. However, I strongly believe that once someone gets a taste for what the new Eldar can do, they will be able to either play differently to counter the new Eldar or build their list differently to account for the new Eldar. That is a good thing and mixes things up. To anyone that doesn't want anything to change because they are comfortable with playing their army in a specific way, well, maybe a narrative type of tournament/event is more up your ally?
Also, I noticed Reece posted a challenge offering $250 to anyone that can beat his Eldar. Oh how I wish I lived closer, I'd be $250 the richer! I would use a Tau army with possibly SM allies.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/30 07:08:42
2015/04/30 06:58:55
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
In general I'm for 7th ED battleforged, minimally modified rules (area terrain, multilevel blasts etc) for my normal games. So I am definitely willing to take an ass kicking from dirty craftworlders.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FYI Morte.... emailed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/30 07:22:04
2015/04/30 08:36:57
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
I am not sure I can compose a rational response to your blog post. You ignore point costs and the fact that Eldar superior mobility and range generally make it easier for them to use the terrain to their advantage than it is for their opponents. It's not skill when you can jump over terrain that bogs down your opponents, move 12"+ inches, and line up shots from ranges where return fire is almost non-existant.
Pretending that the fact that these units lack a special rule that makes them unkillable makes everything totally balanced isn't going to fool most people. Most armies have to commit heavily to their deathstars if they want to field one. Eldar can spam 30 jetbikes, a WK, and still have almost half their points to fill in the rest of their army with at 1850.
2015/04/30 12:29:05
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Mavnas wrote: I am not sure I can compose a rational response to your blog post. You ignore point costs and the fact that Eldar superior mobility and range generally make it easier for them to use the terrain to their advantage than it is for their opponents. It's not skill when you can jump over terrain that bogs down your opponents, move 12"+ inches, and line up shots from ranges where return fire is almost non-existant.
Pretending that the fact that these units lack a special rule that makes them unkillable makes everything totally balanced isn't going to fool most people. Most armies have to commit heavily to their deathstars if they want to field one. Eldar can spam 30 jetbikes, a WK, and still have almost half their points to fill in the rest of their army with at 1850.
Yeah because no other army in the game can field units that move 12" and ignore terrain. What will all those raven wing and white scars players do? Seriously the game board is only so big and they can only run so far away. Imperial Guard has Wvyerns that will eat up a unit of jetbikes probably in one round of shooting. It's also unlikely they would get alpha striked considering you can put them in cover and face the jetbikes the AV12. Good luck glancing that to death. Squadron of 3 is 195. 9 Hull points. Other armies have flyers. Explain how jetbikes are supposed to run away from a storm raven? Or a storm talon? Or a thunderfire cannon? Or a hell drake? Or a Flying Hive Tyrant? Need I go on?
Also if the new eldar codex reduce the number of death stars in the game I can't see that as anything but an improvement. Games involving death stars are the most boring games I have/will ever play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/30 12:29:59
2015/04/30 17:56:24
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Mavnas wrote: I am not sure I can compose a rational response to your blog post. You ignore point costs and the fact that Eldar superior mobility and range generally make it easier for them to use the terrain to their advantage than it is for their opponents. It's not skill when you can jump over terrain that bogs down your opponents, move 12"+ inches, and line up shots from ranges where return fire is almost non-existant.
Pretending that the fact that these units lack a special rule that makes them unkillable makes everything totally balanced isn't going to fool most people. Most armies have to commit heavily to their deathstars if they want to field one. Eldar can spam 30 jetbikes, a WK, and still have almost half their points to fill in the rest of their army with at 1850.
First off, thanks for reading my blog. However, the points you raise-that I allegedly ignored-are merely culminations of math/theory-hammer. I specifically make the point that regardless of how cost effective Jetbikes appear to be on paper and regardless of how many shots/offensively effective they appear to be as well as how mobile they are-unless you sit down and actually play a few games as/against them you really have no idea what it means to have/use those kinds of units. Furthermore, when you use terms like "unkillable," it is hard to take your position seriously as Jetbikes are anything but unkillable. Simply reiterating what Jetbikes appear to be able to do based on their codex entry-without any meaningful context to go along with your comments (i.e., I played X games and got Y results), your statements ultimately don't add much to the discussion. Did you not read anyone's posts or comments about the limitations to Jetbikes or weaknesses/vulnerabilities of Jetbikes?
Now my attitude is not set in stone, it is just set upon my experience and perception of things. Therefore, I am willing to be challenged and have my mind changed, but I'd like to have my position changed by real world experience rather than what someone things about something. For example, I initially wrote off Wraithknights as being a waste of points when the last Codex came out but once I played around with them I saw their power/utility. If, in the course of my gameplay, I find cause to change my mind on the power level of certain Eldar units then I will sit down and write about how my mind has changed based on the evidence/experience. Until then, all I have to go off of is my own experience of having played as and against Eldar for over 15 years.
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
I saw it, I LOLed, was good times. Overall, I don't intend to come across as wantonly or blindly dismissing the opposing point of view-I am just more on the side of "I don't think it looks that bad for the reasons I stated and I'll reserve judgment until I see Eldar in action in a real competitive setting."
Not sure if anyone plays Diablo III, I play on USWEST if anyone wants to do any Rifts/Grifts/Farming, but a Barb is my main and I saw a similar video dealing with the recent Blizzard changes to the Barbarian. That clip is pure gold for getting your point across =).
Mavnas wrote: I am not sure I can compose a rational response to your blog post. You ignore point costs and the fact that Eldar superior mobility and range generally make it easier for them to use the terrain to their advantage than it is for their opponents. It's not skill when you can jump over terrain that bogs down your opponents, move 12"+ inches, and line up shots from ranges where return fire is almost non-existant.
Pretending that the fact that these units lack a special rule that makes them unkillable makes everything totally balanced isn't going to fool most people. Most armies have to commit heavily to their deathstars if they want to field one. Eldar can spam 30 jetbikes, a WK, and still have almost half their points to fill in the rest of their army with at 1850.
Yeah because no other army in the game can field units that move 12" and ignore terrain. What will all those raven wing and white scars players do? Seriously the game board is only so big and they can only run so far away. Imperial Guard has Wvyerns that will eat up a unit of jetbikes probably in one round of shooting. It's also unlikely they would get alpha striked considering you can put them in cover and face the jetbikes the AV12. Good luck glancing that to death. Squadron of 3 is 195. 9 Hull points.
Wyverns have been a consistently brought up counter to jetbikes, that really isn't as outstandingly effective as many make them out to be.
If the Eldar player has any decent spread, a Wyvern shouldn't be hitting more than two, often only one, with each blast. Assuming a full battery of Wyverns, with that sort of spread, the Wyverns will on average kill three to five dead jetbikes, not terrible, but they're hardly removing a full jetbike squad every turn unless the Eldar player is bunching them up in really stupid ways (in which case, yes it's possible for a battery of Wyverns to remove a whole unit in one turn).
Likewise, Scatterbikes are not at all ineffective against AV12 in 7E's "HP" meta. A unit of ten with Guide is removing 6 HP's a turn from AV12, a unit of ten against a Doomed unit of Wyverns will be taking off 8 HP's a turn, if they can get both Guide and Doom off, they'll be taking off an average of 11 HP's a turn.
It's also not like Eldar don't have plenty of other options for dealing with the Wyverns aside from throwing the Jetbikes at them.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2015/04/30 21:39:28
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Vaktathi, yes, in a perfect world-when all of the stars perfectly align and everything goes your way, Eldar Jetbikes will brutalize everything!
However, I don't know about you, but I play in the real world where Ld8 fails LD tests; where 3+ armor saves or 4+ cover saves get failed; when you don't always get the psychic powers you want; or, you are not always able to get into just the right position to do all of the damage that theory/math-hammer says you should be able to do...
So, all hyperbole aside, Jetbikes appear to be strong but I don't think they are as strong as people are making them out to be.
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
Mavnas wrote: I am not sure I can compose a rational response to your blog post. You ignore point costs and the fact that Eldar superior mobility and range generally make it easier for them to use the terrain to their advantage than it is for their opponents. It's not skill when you can jump over terrain that bogs down your opponents, move 12"+ inches, and line up shots from ranges where return fire is almost non-existant.
Pretending that the fact that these units lack a special rule that makes them unkillable makes everything totally balanced isn't going to fool most people. Most armies have to commit heavily to their deathstars if they want to field one. Eldar can spam 30 jetbikes, a WK, and still have almost half their points to fill in the rest of their army with at 1850.
Yeah because no other army in the game can field units that move 12" and ignore terrain. What will all those raven wing and white scars players do? Seriously the game board is only so big and they can only run so far away. Imperial Guard has Wvyerns that will eat up a unit of jetbikes probably in one round of shooting. It's also unlikely they would get alpha striked considering you can put them in cover and face the jetbikes the AV12. Good luck glancing that to death. Squadron of 3 is 195. 9 Hull points.
Wyverns have been a consistently brought up counter to jetbikes, that really isn't as outstandingly effective as many make them out to be.
If the Eldar player has any decent spread, a Wyvern shouldn't be hitting more than two, often only one, with each blast. Assuming a full battery of Wyverns, with that sort of spread, the Wyverns will on average kill three to five dead jetbikes, not terrible, but they're hardly removing a full jetbike squad every turn unless the Eldar player is bunching them up in really stupid ways (in which case, yes it's possible for a battery of Wyverns to remove a whole unit in one turn).
Likewise, Scatterbikes are not at all ineffective against AV12 in 7E's "HP" meta. A unit of ten with Guide is removing 6 HP's a turn from AV12, a unit of ten against a Doomed unit of Wyverns will be taking off 8 HP's a turn, if they can get both Guide and Doom off, they'll be taking off an average of 11 HP's a turn.
It's also not like Eldar don't have plenty of other options for dealing with the Wyverns aside from throwing the Jetbikes at them.
The game board is only so big. Try it out. I think you'll realize the same thing most Eldar players already know which is it's VERY difficult to space our a unit, move out out of range and move out of line sight. TRY IT. Also it's unlikely they could cast Doom as it has a 24 inch range and I'm trying to stay out of range and sight I probably wouldn't be in range for doom. Guide yes obviously.
2015/04/30 23:38:55
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
mortetvie wrote: Vaktathi, yes, in a perfect world-when all of the stars perfectly align and everything goes your way, Eldar Jetbikes will brutalize everything!
However, I don't know about you, but I play in the real world where Ld8 fails LD tests; where 3+ armor saves or 4+ cover saves get failed; when you don't always get the psychic powers you want; or, you are not always able to get into just the right position to do all of the damage that theory/math-hammer says you should be able to do...
So, all hyperbole aside, Jetbikes appear to be strong but I don't think they are as strong as people are making them out to be.
You're trying to argue a point I didn't try to make.
I didn't say that Guardians couldn't fail Ld tests and I certainly didn't say they couldn't fail saves, just as I didn't say you could always get off psychic powers or anything else. Obviously all of these things can happen. Wyverns can also scatter way the hell off and do relatively little. I'm not trying to discount the fact that there's variability in this game. I gave some examples of what they're very likely to be able to do with relatively minimal support (hardly hyperbolic examples) as well as typical expected casualties versus Wyverns.
My point was that Wyverns are not the automatic hardcounter to jetbikes the way they've sometimes been portrayed, and that the jetbikes really aren't at all helpless against AV12 (a full squad of Scatterbikes, even without any psychic support, will kill an AV12 vehicle with 4+ cover in one round of shooting on average).
The game board is only so big. Try it out. I think you'll realize the same thing most Eldar players already know which is it's VERY difficult to space our a unit, move out out of range and move out of line sight. TRY IT.
I didn't say that it was easy to do all of those things at once, only that a relatively intelligent modicum of spacing (which *should* be relatively easy) will typically negate the possibility of a Wyvern unit getting anywhere near enough hits to obliterate a full squad of jetbikes in one round of shooting. I'm certainly won't make the case that Jetbikes could consistently stay completely out of LoS with those huge bases and whatnot, just that a simple and effective spread (if you're anticipating Wyvern fire) should usually be relatively easy to maintain and still engage your opponent in most instances.
Also it's unlikely they could cast Doom as it has a 24 inch range and I'm trying to stay out of range and sight I probably wouldn't be in range for doom. Guide yes obviously.
Doom is less likely, absolutely, was just throwing the number out there to show what was possible. It's certainly not impossible however to see Doom getting off like that though, that's not a difficult or outrageous event, just not as point-click easy as Guide.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2015/05/01 03:46:15
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Mavnas wrote: I am not sure I can compose a rational response to your blog post. You ignore point costs and the fact that Eldar superior mobility and range generally make it easier for them to use the terrain to their advantage than it is for their opponents. It's not skill when you can jump over terrain that bogs down your opponents, move 12"+ inches, and line up shots from ranges where return fire is almost non-existant.
Pretending that the fact that these units lack a special rule that makes them unkillable makes everything totally balanced isn't going to fool most people. Most armies have to commit heavily to their deathstars if they want to field one. Eldar can spam 30 jetbikes, a WK, and still have almost half their points to fill in the rest of their army with at 1850.
First off, thanks for reading my blog. However, the points you raise-that I allegedly ignored-are merely culminations of math/theory-hammer. I specifically make the point that regardless of how cost effective Jetbikes appear to be on paper and regardless of how many shots/offensively effective they appear to be as well as how mobile they are-unless you sit down and actually play a few games as/against them you really have no idea what it means to have/use those kinds of units. Furthermore, when you use terms like "unkillable," it is hard to take your position seriously as Jetbikes are anything but unkillable. Simply reiterating what Jetbikes appear to be able to do based on their codex entry-without any meaningful context to go along with your comments (i.e., I played X games and got Y results), your statements ultimately don't add much to the discussion. Did you not read anyone's posts or comments about the limitations to Jetbikes or weaknesses/vulnerabilities of Jetbikes?
Now my attitude is not set in stone, it is just set upon my experience and perception of things. Therefore, I am willing to be challenged and have my mind changed, but I'd like to have my position changed by real world experience rather than what someone things about something. For example, I initially wrote off Wraithknights as being a waste of points when the last Codex came out but once I played around with them I saw their power/utility. If, in the course of my gameplay, I find cause to change my mind on the power level of certain Eldar units then I will sit down and write about how my mind has changed based on the evidence/experience. Until then, all I have to go off of is my own experience of having played as and against Eldar for over 15 years.
If you dismiss Mathhammer, you are wrong. Period.
The fact that a more skilled player or more lucky can defeat a less skilled player despite a handicap is not an indication of balance. It's an indication that one guy is better than another. All other things being equal, math wins unless there's special rules that make it easier for you to gain some advantage (like say, being able to Jink or move more than your enemy). I'm sure some units have an edge on the bikes. Most don't, in fact, quite the opposite. Comparing the bikes to MEQ is silly because most MEQ units can be ignored unless you want the objective they're camped on.
If I asked to you to bet $100 on a coin flip, and used a weighted coin that came up in my favor 75% of the time, I don't think you'd buy the argument that it's totally fair because in the real world, sometimes you win too. Sure, in the real world I sometimes steal initiative and score first blood by shooting 4 heavy bolters at a Wraithlord standing in the open, but you can't balance games around flukes.
2015/05/01 05:14:48
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Mavnas wrote: I am not sure I can compose a rational response to your blog post. You ignore point costs and the fact that Eldar superior mobility and range generally make it easier for them to use the terrain to their advantage than it is for their opponents. It's not skill when you can jump over terrain that bogs down your opponents, move 12"+ inches, and line up shots from ranges where return fire is almost non-existant.
Pretending that the fact that these units lack a special rule that makes them unkillable makes everything totally balanced isn't going to fool most people. Most armies have to commit heavily to their deathstars if they want to field one. Eldar can spam 30 jetbikes, a WK, and still have almost half their points to fill in the rest of their army with at 1850.
First off, thanks for reading my blog. However, the points you raise-that I allegedly ignored-are merely culminations of math/theory-hammer. I specifically make the point that regardless of how cost effective Jetbikes appear to be on paper and regardless of how many shots/offensively effective they appear to be as well as how mobile they are-unless you sit down and actually play a few games as/against them you really have no idea what it means to have/use those kinds of units. Furthermore, when you use terms like "unkillable," it is hard to take your position seriously as Jetbikes are anything but unkillable. Simply reiterating what Jetbikes appear to be able to do based on their codex entry-without any meaningful context to go along with your comments (i.e., I played X games and got Y results), your statements ultimately don't add much to the discussion. Did you not read anyone's posts or comments about the limitations to Jetbikes or weaknesses/vulnerabilities of Jetbikes?
Now my attitude is not set in stone, it is just set upon my experience and perception of things. Therefore, I am willing to be challenged and have my mind changed, but I'd like to have my position changed by real world experience rather than what someone things about something. For example, I initially wrote off Wraithknights as being a waste of points when the last Codex came out but once I played around with them I saw their power/utility. If, in the course of my gameplay, I find cause to change my mind on the power level of certain Eldar units then I will sit down and write about how my mind has changed based on the evidence/experience. Until then, all I have to go off of is my own experience of having played as and against Eldar for over 15 years.
If you dismiss Mathhammer, you are wrong. Period.
The fact that a more skilled player or more lucky can defeat a less skilled player despite a handicap is not an indication of balance. It's an indication that one guy is better than another. All other things being equal, math wins unless there's special rules that make it easier for you to gain some advantage (like say, being able to Jink or move more than your enemy). I'm sure some units have an edge on the bikes. Most don't, in fact, quite the opposite. Comparing the bikes to MEQ is silly because most MEQ units can be ignored unless you want the objective they're camped on.
If I asked to you to bet $100 on a coin flip, and used a weighted coin that came up in my favor 75% of the time, I don't think you'd buy the argument that it's totally fair because in the real world, sometimes you win too. Sure, in the real world I sometimes steal initiative and score first blood by shooting 4 heavy bolters at a Wraithlord standing in the open, but you can't balance games around flukes.
First of all, I am not dismissing mathhammer, I am just not placing as much weight on it as you appear to be. Consequently, you misstate what I am doing as I am not dismissing mathhammer but pointing out that Warhammer is more than just statistics.
Second of all, even if I was dismissing mathhammer, what is the basis for saying I am wrong to do so? You see, we play a game called WAR hammer, not MATH hammer. Math and Statistics are a good guide to tell us what MAY happen in a specific CIRCUMSTANCE (e.g., if X conditions are met, we can expect Y results). However, you fail to see how I am pointing out that your position is assuming the necessary conditions to achieve the assumed results are present.
For example, one can say that with absolute scientific and mathematical precision that X weapon will yield Y results on Z type of target. However, you fail to add into the equation other factors that might affect X weapon from being able to actually produce Y results on Z type of target. As I stated before, factors such as the relative skills of the players involved, the actual army lists, the terrain, the missions and a myriad other factors may prevent the results you might expect from what mathhammer tells you should happen. I mean, saying that nuclear weapons will wipe out a city is fine and all but as things currently stand, you are not likely to see that becoming a reality due to circumstances and factors as pertaining to world politics. Math-hammer says nuke=wiped out city but reality=not going to happen ATM.
Furthermore, your examples and comments do not accurately reflect the issues at hand. Specifically, comparing Bikes to MEQ in terms of survivability is absolutely appropriate because MEQ units are an appropriate benchmark to determine bike survivability (i.e., T4 and a 3+ save). Finally, comparing the use of Eldar Jetbikes to that of a weighted coin toss is hyperbole at best and doesn't do anything to illustrate or further your point. I mean, are you really saying that Eldar Jetbikes give Eldar players an unfair advantage over other armies? If so, that is just your opinion, which you are entitled to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/01 05:21:52
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
yeah, because marines have jink saves, 36" range S6 spammed weapons, and the ability to jump back out of range/LOS of retaliatory strikes of whatever happened to survive their alpha strike. it's a completely legit comparison.
i mean, i know i'm not the first person to bring this up, but your comparison of MEQ vs scatrider is really, really flawed.
of course jetbikes give eldar a serious mechanical advantage vs. other armies because they're criminally undercosted and loaded for bear (smoldering, laser-addled cooked bear) while being a troops choice that can jump across the board.
2015/05/01 05:36:27
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Gigasnail, How exactly is my comparison flawed? Simply saying "but jetbikes can jink and alpha strike and have such a long threat range and can jump back behind cover" is not enough.
Specifically, comparing any T4 3+ save model to a Space Marine, which is another T4 3+ save model, to determine the relative amount of shots required of any particular weapon to do a wound is an appropriate and logical comparison. If you get X number of bolter shots on a unit of Bikes, you WILL kill Y amount of Bikes and also the equivalent number of Space Marines-where is the flaw in that statement? Indeed, comparing Bikes to Space Marines is appropriate because you will find that it takes the same number of shots to kill an Eldar Jetbike as it would a Space Marine. Furthermore, Space Marines can readily find themselves in 4+ cover and unlike Bikes, can go to ground for a 3+ cover save so saying "but bikes can Jink" doesn't hold much weight in differentiating between Bikes and Space Marines in terms of survivability.
Ultimately, there is a difference between the actual ability to get X shots on Y Bikes versus what happens when you get X shots on Y bikes. you are assuming that the Jetbike will either be out of range or out of LOS to avoid being killed-which won't always be the case and is not guaranteed.
Now, I am not saying that Jetbikes=Space marines in every sense. My position is simply pointing out that (1) T4 and 3+/4+ cover is not THAT survivable in real practice, therefore a Space Marine is an appropriate bench mark to determine how many shots it would take to kill a Jetbike due to both models having T3 and a 3+ save; and, (2) getting all of those jetbikes in position/LOS to a target is easier said than done and not guaranteed as is keeping Jetbikes out of range/LOS..
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2015/05/01 06:09:54
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
You people seriously need to come down off the ledge. Wait like 2 months until you've actually had a chance to play mutliple games against the new codex and feel it out. (Also by then there will be a new world ending codex you'll probably being arguing over and scatter laser jetbikes won't matter.)
The comparison between jetbikes and marines is not perfect but literally there is not a unit to unit comparison in 40k that is. Even so it's still a really good comparison. I'd say the biggest flaw in that comparison is the different morale rules for each of those units. Obviously Space Marines fair better in that comparison as they are infinitely less likely to run away given they flee 2D6 while jetbikes flee 3D6 and if I'm "retreating" I won't be far from the board edge.
Jetbikes are a good model now. I don't think anyone can try and argue they're not. They needed some kind of boost becaue they were awful in the last codex. Their only purpose was to grab objectives which they were good at. Unfortunately they were terrible at actually killing other models without then immediately dying themselves. I would have rather seen GW fix the shuriken catapult rules and by extension fix guardians and jetbikes but they didn't. This is an obvious money decision. I have jetbikes but I don't have jetbikes with scatter lasers and no one does. If I want to play with jetbikes now I'll have to buy the new models. Every Eldar player is probably in that same boat. So now I need some new models and turns out so fo a lot of other people. Is it a game breaking move? No. After the dust settles in a few months instead taking units good at killing wave serpents, you'll be taking units good at killing jetbikes. The meta will adapt and we'll all move on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/01 05:58:11
2015/05/01 05:57:04
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Jetbikes are a good model now. I don't think anyone can try and argue they're not. They needed some kind of boost becaue they were awful in the last codex.
Lol, yeah OKAY.
2015/05/01 08:22:54
Subject: Re:Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Jetbikes are a good model now. I don't think anyone can try and argue they're not. They needed some kind of boost becaue they were awful in the last codex.
Umm, isn't anyone arguing that just taking 2 3-man squads with Scatter Lasers is the optimal way to employ jetbikes? That leaves a lot of points for putting units with higher threat profiles on the table, but still maintains its own threat of 12 S6 shots. Easier to hide, small footprint, etc.
2015/05/01 13:07:26
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
I will come out and say the Eldar codex has pretty much reliably broken the meta and hilariously enough has ways to counter the 'counters' to the way in which they broke the meta.
Mass D-weapons negate the Mech Meta.
Mass Scatbikes will do a number on Hordes.
And if we switch to FMC and flyer spam? Well, every unit in the Eldar 'dex that can take an Eldar Missile Launcher gets the skyfire option now.
I am still undecided. I fully believe that jetbikes and wraithknights are just too good for their respective points costs - in terms of mobility, durability and damage output. I fully believe that the Aspect Host formation is disgustingly potent. Free +1 BS/WS depending on what you choose? That is just downright rude. The Seer Council is also disgustingly good for what it does. Warp Charges on a 3+? Throw Eldrad in there and giggle. The base Council already throws in 11 dice to the pool on its own so yeah, you can get a lot of utility out of that alone.
Now only a CSM player.
2015/05/01 15:56:45
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Jetbikes are a good model now. I don't think anyone can try and argue they're not. They needed some kind of boost becaue they were awful in the last codex.
Lol, yeah OKAY.
Is this the part where you convince me you're afraid of jetbike with shuriken catapults? 2 shots at range 12". LD 8. 17 points. Go ahead I'm waiting. They literally had one job capture objectives. 12" range on shuriken catapults is pretty silly.
My 1850 pt. Ork army: Big Boss Badonk-a-Donk and 'da Dakka Dudez 
I would use a Tau army with possibly 
20000+ points
