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 Dozer Blades wrote:
Those three effected is huge in terms of how it affects the game overall.

No math hammer?


Tell ya what, this thread has lots going on. I'll make a Destroyer vs Distort thread.

Super I look forward to seeing the results.

I worked it out in several of the "General Discussion" threads.

Against AV14 you're increasing average HP inflicting nearly 6 fold, from 0.33 per single BS4 shot to 1.94 per BS4 shot. Scythes, not benefitting from 6's and having an extra "failure" result increase 4 fold from 0.166 Pens per shot to 1.33 pens per shot.

Against a T6 W4 MC, you go from 0.11 ID results per Wraithcannon and 0.55 wounds per shot (including the ID inflicting 6) to inflicting ~3.5x as many wounds with D weapons, an average of 1.944 wounds (and auto-killing regardless of EW on a 6).

The Scythe is a little less clear-cut. The old Scythes inflicted an average of 0.166 wounds (resulting in ID and didn't hurt the MC otherwise) and if that's inflicting ID on a 4 wound MC then we can just increase that number by 4 to 0.66.

The new Scythe is inflicting an average of 1.33 wounds per shot (not inflicting ID).

Basically the older Scythe would outright kill any MC without EW on a 6, but otherwise did nothing, while the new "D-1" Scythes, are inflicting D3 wounds 4x as often but aren't outright inflicting ID. Ultimately, in this case the gap isn't quite as huge as in other instances, on average they'll kill an MC *only* twice as fast as their older counterparts, but still substantial and far less "luck" reliant.

Thanks Vahk... illuminating.

Morte?

 doktor_g wrote:
Thanks Vahk... illuminating.

Morte?

Honestly, I don't know what else can be said that I have not already said because there are no new points that have been raised that actually address what I've been pointing out. However, perhaps I need to expound a bit on what my points are or mean?

Overall, as I've already pointed out, saying X weapon does Y wounds against Z targets-as a blanket statement in a vacuum setting-may be interesting and informative BUT it is hardly demonstrative of what we can expect to see in real world game play. This is because of the various factors I pointed out earlier such as player skill, army lists, terrain, reserve rolls and any other number of factors that may prevent the results one might expect from playing math-hammer instead of warhammer. Therefore, basing the doom and gloom on math-hammer rather than actual real world experience is foolishness. For example, it doesn't matter if you have a weapon that, in ideal circumstances, will wipe out an entire person's army if those ideal circumstances can't be met...

Specifically, a single unit of D-Scythe Wraithguard will generally cost around 455 to take, at a minimum (e.g., 210(5x WG w/ 5D-Scythe+110(Serpent)+95(Archon w/ WWP)+40(Warrior tax for Archon)). Taking this combo also has a hidden cost of forcing you to structure your army around it-which can be unduly limiting (e.g., Dark Eldar allied detachment/Eldar Cad). Consequently, if (1) they do not destroy around 400 points of models in a game; or, (2) if they do not destroy a target worth sacrificing 400+points of models to destroy; they are an inefficient tool or waste of points. Indeed, they might kill a Leman Russ, Wraith Knight or any other vehicle or MC in the game with relative ease-assuming that the target does not have an invulnerable save-but how many of those targets are really worth investing 455 points to take out?

Short and simple, the answer is not many. Realistically, you can expect this unit to do some damage when they drop but then they are done for the rest of the game. For me, the only reason I would take D-Scythes with a WWP is to deal with Centurion Stars or other death-star type units-and only in an ITC format where Invisibility is nerfed. The same analysis can apply to regular D-Cannon equipped Wraithguard, only while these guys may get a "6" result, they will generally be inflicting less hits in general so that balances out. Also, Wraithguard already typically killed anything they shot at anyway so people are effectively complaining "well now my dead thing is even deader, no fair!"

Now looking at a single Wraith Knight-Yes, each shot can do more damage, but is that increased damage potential really THAT scary/bad? Really, as people pointed out, the targets that suffer more from D weapons are MCs, Vehicles and multi-wound targets and part of building a good army list is to try to take multiples of things in case one of those choices dies horribly before it can do something meaningful. That is why only taking ONE Wraithknight in a list was not as strong as taking two. One was not that hard to deal with but 2 helped ensure you'd get at least some meaningful millage out of at least one of the Wraithknights. That is, unless you deployed like a dummy against a White Scars bike army =/. Also, putting your single Riptide, Leman Russ or whatever on the table across from a Wraith Knight, rather than keeping that Riptide, Leman Russ or whatever in reserves, is poor play and just asking for that thing to be killed anyway.

So overall, those complaining about D-Scythes/ranged D weapons in an Eldar army really need to just learn how to play against them or build better army lists IMO. Throwing your hands in the air and going "OP, no fair, if we lose to D-Scythes that means we did not lose to a better player but because they took an OP unit!" That kind of mentality is a cop-out and part of what is wrong in this hobby. Through tactics, strategy and player skill, you can mitigate the effectiveness of Eldar D-Weapons and rather than complain about how OP they appear to be, why not focus on what you can do to play around these things?

Learn to play, guys. I'm so glad to hear there's not a real probelm with game design or balance, the issue is just me.

 gigasnail wrote:
Learn to play, guys. I'm so glad to hear there's not a real probelm with game design or balance, the issue is just me.

You said it, not me!

In all seriousness, if that is ALL you got out of my post, you're not really hearing me. Yes, the game is not the most balanced in the context of being played right out of the BRB. However, with what changes many tournament formats impose upon how armies can be built and how missions are won, the game is relatively balanced in that context. Indeed, TOs strive to make competitive play a fun and balanced experience for everyone and THAT is what this discussion is about.

If part of the solution to dealing with the new Eldar is "learning how to play," as it is with any new codex release, then learn how to play rather than complaining about some numbers crunched in a vacuum. If part of the problem with the new Eldar codex genuinely IS that they have some options that are too strong, then how to limit those strengths will be something each TO will need to figure out.

My problem is with the part of the discussion that goes "math says X shots do Y wounds to Z targets, therefore Eldar are OP and require no skill!" without supplying any meaningful alternatives/sollutions or real world game play experience to support their positions.

 mortetvie wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
Thanks Vahk... illuminating.

Morte?

Honestly, I don't know what else can be said that I have not already said because there are no new points that have been raised that actually address what I've been pointing out. However, perhaps I need to expound a bit on what my points are or mean?

Overall, as I've already pointed out, saying X weapon does Y wounds against Z targets-as a blanket statement in a vacuum setting-may be interesting and informative BUT it is hardly demonstrative of what we can expect to see in real world game play. This is because of the various factors I pointed out earlier such as player skill, army lists, terrain, reserve rolls and any other number of factors that may prevent the results one might expect from playing math-hammer instead of warhammer. Therefore, basing the doom and gloom on math-hammer rather than actual real world experience is foolishness. For example, it doesn't matter if you have a weapon that, in ideal circumstances, will wipe out an entire person's army if those ideal circumstances can't be met...

Specifically, a single unit of D-Scythe Wraithguard will generally cost around 455 to take, at a minimum (e.g., 210(5x WG w/ 5D-Scythe+110(Serpent)+95(Archon w/ WWP)+40(Warrior tax for Archon)). Taking this combo also has a hidden cost of forcing you to structure your army around it-which can be unduly limiting (e.g., Dark Eldar allied detachment/Eldar Cad). Consequently, if (1) they do not destroy around 400 points of models in a game; or, (2) if they do not destroy a target worth sacrificing 400+points of models to destroy; they are an inefficient tool or waste of points. Indeed, they might kill a Leman Russ, Wraith Knight or any other vehicle or MC in the game with relative ease-assuming that the target does not have an invulnerable save-but how many of those targets are really worth investing 455 points to take out?

Short and simple, the answer is not many. Realistically, you can expect this unit to do some damage when they drop but then they are done for the rest of the game. For me, the only reason I would take D-Scythes with a WWP is to deal with Centurion Stars or other death-star type units-and only in an ITC format where Invisibility is nerfed. The same analysis can apply to regular D-Cannon equipped Wraithguard, only while these guys may get a "6" result, they will generally be inflicting less hits in general so that balances out. Also, Wraithguard already typically killed anything they shot at anyway so people are effectively complaining "well now my dead thing is even deader, no fair!"

Now looking at a single Wraith Knight-Yes, each shot can do more damage, but is that increased damage potential really THAT scary/bad? Really, as people pointed out, the targets that suffer more from D weapons are MCs, Vehicles and multi-wound targets and part of building a good army list is to try to take multiples of things in case one of those choices dies horribly before it can do something meaningful. That is why only taking ONE Wraithknight in a list was not as strong as taking two. One was not that hard to deal with but 2 helped ensure you'd get at least some meaningful millage out of at least one of the Wraithknights. That is, unless you deployed like a dummy against a White Scars bike army =/. Also, putting your single Riptide, Leman Russ or whatever on the table across from a Wraith Knight, rather than keeping that Riptide, Leman Russ or whatever in reserves, is poor play and just asking for that thing to be killed anyway.

So overall, those complaining about D-Scythes/ranged D weapons in an Eldar army really need to just learn how to play against them or build better army lists IMO. Throwing your hands in the air and going "OP, no fair, if we lose to D-Scythes that means we did not lose to a better player but because they took an OP unit!" That kind of mentality is a cop-out and part of what is wrong in this hobby. Through tactics, strategy and player skill, you can mitigate the effectiveness of Eldar D-Weapons and rather than complain about how OP they appear to be, why not focus on what you can do to play around these things?

Why do you *need* to take the Dark Eldar contingent for the D-Scythe Wraithguard? What's wrong with just taking them in a Serpent and not bothering with the WWP gimmick? That drops a whole bunch of cost and list construction awkwardness, and still allows you to get them nearly anywhere by turn 2 with a very strong degree of certainty and safety in a very well protected AV12 Fast Skimmer.

The "L2P" retort is ignoring the reality of the situation here. There's nothing different or new to learn about fighting these units, they operate identically to the way they did before, there's no new trick or weakness GW snuck in there. They're just vastly more powerful than they were previously.

Vaktathi, Wraithguard taken in a Serpent without a WWP can easily be shot down along the way, leaving the Wraithguard stranded. Ask any Eldar player and they'll tell you how easy it is to kill a Serpent. So acting like that is a viable or guaranteed alternative to using a WWP is rather naive. But you can just run some numbers and use that math-hammer of yours to realize how easy it is to kill an AV12 vehicle with a 4+ cover save and 3 HP (or no cover save if you have access to Ignores Cover weapons).

Also, if your argument is "nothing is changed except they are stronger" then you have to ask yourself, will that increase in strength make them appear in every/most Eldar list(s)? How often did you actually ever see them or expect to see them, anyway?

Overall, the irony in your last comment is that ignoring being told to "l2p" is actually ignoring reality, not the other way around. This is because with any new release, you really DO have to learn how to play and adjust to that new release.

For example, the DE release giving WWP access to Eldar made D-Scythe drops a thing, but not a very prevalent one-and yet you still had to learn how to play to deal with this threat. The new Eldar release make them more of a thing, but it remains to be seen how prevalent they become. Therefore, if D-Scythe bombs DO become more prevalent, you WILL need to "l2p" against that tactic... Just like you have to have an answer to drop-pod Marines or any other new option/combo that pops up in the meta. Indeed, the better tournament players are the ones that can look at whatever is in a meta and come up with an answer to it, and since this is a topic about tournaments/competitive play, being told to "l2p" is something that should be considered. I mean, are you really saying that Eldar are so OP that they will not take any skill to win with in tournaments and no other army has an answer or stands a chance against them?

As someone who plays Eldar (I've got probably over 4000pts of Eldar sitting here just a few feet away, including 5 Wave Serpents) and who has played against Eldar for many years, Wave Serpents and not stunningly easy to kill.

They're not the hardest thing in the game to kill, but between cover and now possibly invul saves, coupled with AV12 and the Serpent Shield to downgrade pens, stopping them *before* they get to where they want to go, often with only a single turn to do so, is definitely a difficult thing to do. Particularly if there are multiple threats an opponent must engage.

As for having to learn to play and adjust, the reality is that there's nothing new in terms of defeating these units. They have no new weaknesses. The WWP tactic isn't something new. The Wraithguard are just better at killing anything they get to and better at killing a much wider array of units.

If you'd seen and played against the WWP tactic before, nothing has changed. You fight that the exact same way you did before with the last book. Nothing new, except that it's way more powerful. Your defense doesn't change except that its less effective.

There's no new weaknesses to take advantage of or stunningly new tactics that weren't there before (at least in regards to Wraithguard), there's nothing new to "learn" that wasn't possible before. That's my point.

EDIT: sure, if someone's a relatively new player, or if there's been a radical change in the way something actually operates, we can say "L2P", but the units and tactics we're talking about aren't new, they're just way more effective, and I'd like to think we're basing the discussion around players who typically have a good idea as to what they're doing with a good deal of experience.

 Vaktathi wrote:
As someone who plays Eldar (I've got probably over 4000pts of Eldar sitting here just a few feet away, including 5 Wave Serpents) and who has played against Eldar for many years, Wave Serpents and not stunningly easy to kill.

They're not the hardest thing in the game to kill, but between cover and now possibly invul saves, coupled with AV12 and the Serpent Shield to downgrade pens, stopping them *before* they get to where they want to go, often with only a single turn to do so, is definitely a difficult thing to do. Particularly if there are multiple threats an opponent must engage.

As for having to learn to play and adjust, the reality is that there's nothing new in terms of defeating these units. They have no new weaknesses. The WWP tactic isn't something new. The Wraithguard are just better at killing anything they get to and better at killing a much wider array of units.

If you'd seen and played against the WWP tactic before, nothing has changed. You fight that the exact same way you did before with the last book. Nothing new, except that it's way more powerful. Your defense doesn't change except that its less effective.

There's no new weaknesses to take advantage of or stunningly new tactics that weren't there before (at least in regards to Wraithguard), there's nothing new to "learn" that wasn't possible before. That's my point.

First of all, in tournament play, if someone wants a particular Serpent dead-that serpent will die. It really is not going to be a problem to knock the D-Scythe Serpent out. Second of all, if you have not already learned how to take advantage of the limitations of D-Scythe drops from a WWP, then you need to L2P. There are ways to defend against and deal with them to the point of "ok, that's just one thing I need to deal with and plan for this game."

D-Scythes do not automatically mean that your big thing or powerful unit is dead.

There is nothing new to learn about how to deal with eldar. They die the same way they did last codex, only they're better, often cheaper, shoot more, and the ways they were dealt with are less effective now.

This thread is hilarious though.

 mortetvie wrote:


First of all, in tournament play, if someone wants a particular Serpent dead-that serpent will die.

Maybe. A gunline IG or Tau army can probably make sure of it, but again, between saves, speed, possibly terrain/LoS, and Serpent Shield, that's hardly a guarantee. A lot of armies won't be able to auto-kill a Wave Serpent turn 1 with certainty.

If they could, then Serpents in the previous book would not have been the issue that they were.

Second of all, if you have not already learned how to take advantage of the limitations of D-Scythe drops from a WWP, then you need to L2P. There are ways to defend against and deal with them to the point of "ok, that's just one thing I need to deal with and plan for this game."

And my point was that if you already have fought against it, your strategy doesn't change, but the Eldar are just way more effective.

D-Scythes do not automatically mean that your big thing or powerful unit is dead.

Depends on what it is. If it's a Knight, sure. If it's a Macharius or Russ squadron, it's almost certainly dead. If it's a Heirophant, it's probably still alive. If it's a Swarmlord, it's probably dead.

It's us not eldar.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's us not eldar.

More like his comments are
Point costs don't matter
Comparisons between other armies don't matter
Math and stats don't matter
How much stronger they are from last codex doesn't matter
battle reps and play tests being posted everywhere showing how broken they are doesn't matter
Your problem is you need to learn to play better.
You see if you read my blog you will see learn how if you take a drop pod of space marines and deep strike perfectly in range turn 1 and you get lucky wig blind tests and shooting you can totally kill that knight in this blanket subjective scenario.
It's not eldar that's broken it's everyone else!!!
I'm glad you guys see my point.

gungo wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's us not eldar.

More like his comments are
Point costs don't matter
Comparisons between other armies don't matter
Math and stats don't matter
How much stronger they are from last codex doesn't matter
battle reps and play tests being posted everywhere showing how broken they are doesn't matter
Your problem is you need to learn to play better.
You see if you read my blog you will see learn how if you take a drop pod of space marines and deep strike perfectly in range turn 1 and you get lucky wig blind tests and shooting you can totally kill that knight in this blanket subjective scenario.
It's not eldar that's broken it's everyone else!!!
I'm glad you guys see my point.

This quote perfectly sums up the attitude a lot of people appear to have towards my posts. However, what you are getting out of my posts is NOT what I am saying.

At the most basic level, all I am saying is that the Eldar codex is likely not as "OP" as you guys are making it out to be. Additionally, I am trying to point out that basing your position on mathhammer and scenarious that don't necessarily reflect real tournament play is faulty reasoning.

What would be more constructive is if you guys said "I play x army with this type of list and I see these kinds of results against X kind of Eldar units..."

However, simply saying "27 point Scatter Laser Bikes-game over!" Is not helpful.

gungo wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's us not eldar.

More like his comments are
Point costs don't matter
Comparisons between other armies don't matter
Math and stats don't matter
How much stronger they are from last codex doesn't matter
battle reps and play tests being posted everywhere showing how broken they are doesn't matter
Your problem is you need to learn to play better.
You see if you read my blog you will see learn how if you take a drop pod of space marines and deep strike perfectly in range turn 1 and you get lucky wig blind tests and shooting you can totally kill that knight in this blanket subjective scenario.
It's not eldar that's broken it's everyone else!!!
I'm glad you guys see my point.

That does appear to be an accurate summation.

Nothing's changed in the new dex. Things just got better. L2P? Already did.

Basically every unit is better... The development team must have spent so much time buffing eldar to the exclusion of the other seventh edition codices. It shows too.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's us not eldar.

Finally! You understand!



I'm still working on that thread I promised, but had to stop for two games, today.
...
I will try to post it tomorrow. MathYammer and such.

"am saying is that the Eldar codex is likely not as "OP" as you guys are making it out to be."

Remove the Wraithknight from tournament play and restrict heavy weapons on the jetbike to 1 in 3 and your statement has some validity.

#notapocalypse40k - let's stop the infiltration of Apocalypse game design in the 40k we used to know! Eliminating super heavies and gargantuans from GT level events.

 mortetvie wrote:
Vaktathi, Wraithguard taken in a Serpent without a WWP can easily be shot down along the way, leaving the Wraithguard stranded. Ask any Eldar player and they'll tell you how easy it is to kill a Serpent. So acting like that is a viable or guaranteed alternative to using a WWP is rather naive. But you can just run some numbers and use that math-hammer of yours to realize how easy it is to kill an AV12 vehicle with a 4+ cover save and 3 HP (or no cover save if you have access to Ignores Cover weapons.

Morte you know of AV12, 3HP troop transports that are harder to kill than Serpents?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind.... actually. This thread is like arguing over climate change, or taxes or god or whatever. Outs....

 mortetvie wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's us not eldar.

More like his comments are
Point costs don't matter
Comparisons between other armies don't matter
Math and stats don't matter
How much stronger they are from last codex doesn't matter
battle reps and play tests being posted everywhere showing how broken they are doesn't matter
Your problem is you need to learn to play better.
You see if you read my blog you will see learn how if you take a drop pod of space marines and deep strike perfectly in range turn 1 and you get lucky wig blind tests and shooting you can totally kill that knight in this blanket subjective scenario.
It's not eldar that's broken it's everyone else!!!
I'm glad you guys see my point.

This quote perfectly sums up the attitude a lot of people appear to have towards my posts. However, what you are getting out of my posts is NOT what I am saying.

At the most basic level, all I am saying is that the Eldar codex is likely not as "OP" as you guys are making it out to be. Additionally, I am trying to point out that basing your position on mathhammer and scenarious that don't necessarily reflect real tournament play is faulty reasoning.

What would be more constructive is if you guys said "I play x army with this type of list and I see these kinds of results against X kind of Eldar units..."

However, simply saying "27 point Scatter Laser Bikes-game over!" Is not helpful.

No the problem is you believe you are the only one who is right.
The fact is there are dozens of battkereps and playtests reported that completely back up our math, comparisons and scenarios.
And your comparison are already we'll know. Everyone knows what units can hurt eldar. They never changed and your blog doesn't change that.
And no one is arguing with you on the exact level of overpoweredness. Which is a deflection of the issue that eldar ARE overpowered.
You are being dismissive and demeaning to everyone else's opinion.
Pretty much saying learn to play better
Followed up by you guys just don't get my point.
That 27 point scat bike doesn't mean it's broken by itself but in the context of the entire army, it's relative cost to other comparable units, it's abilities compared to every other troop choice, and a entire weeks worth of play tests supports the intitial reaction of that units. Two major tournament organizers and like 5 blogs not counting people's own playtests prove this unit is broken. Your subjective isolated examples of how to deal with them doesn't change that because people already know what can and can't hurt a bike.
The fact is eldar are the most powerful dex right now and they do have some overpowered unit choice.

I just played in a 1000pt tourney. I used a CAD and used Scatterbikes & a WK, just to see how broken they could be.

I am not a B+ level player and can confidently say that I live in the top of the mid-tier, maybe even lower top-tier. Doesn't matter what army I play, I have a very high win-rate in non-tourney games, because I know how to play the book missions. Too bad most tourneys here don't use book mission, and I usually have trouble adapting.

Even given that, I lost 2 out of 3 games at this tourney and the 1 win was due to rolling a last turn '6' that killed a Spore sitting on an objective. My bikes died/ran off the board in EVERY SINGLE game and my WK was actually first blood in another game. The armies I played against were Imp Guard (Basilisks hurt bikes BAD), Tyranids (Dakka Tyrant and drop pod Devil Gaunts kill the bikes in 1 turn) and Space Wolves (even on the charge against only 3 wolves, my WK got squished). Even with Guide, my WK missed way too many times. 1 shot guns can never be broken, because they are just 1 shot.

So yeah, 'Eldar are broken to the point of no repair because no army has a counter"...oh wait YES THEY DO! You just have to field units that people overlook

The biggest downside with the bikes is that they now have a HUGE target painted on them and it does take much to wipe them. So let them all have Scatter lasers, it is not like they will get to use them for more than 2 turns

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's us not eldar.

Finally! You understand!



I'm still working on that thread I promised, but had to stop for two games, today.
...
I will try to post it tomorrow. MathYammer and such.

It's already been posted - not even close.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's us not eldar.

Finally! You understand!



I'm still working on that thread I promised, but had to stop for two games, today.
...
I will try to post it tomorrow. MathYammer and such.

It's already been posted - not even close.

Vaktathi's numbers? If so, then I humbly submit that I need it more clearly explained. Anyway, the thread is started, here in the tourney forum.

Wait, a whole page that is basically a L2P argument stating that the Eldar codex is fair, balanced and not at all flawed when compared to other books?

When did I miss this?

Y'see, the problem is....Eldar got buffs. Buffs in many forms. First they artificially shift the meta through the potential abundance of both Skyfire (Hello EMLs) and Strength D weapons. Then the units that were a bit under par with the last book because they were specialists who suffered in the Flyer and Mech meta (and as such would have become a lot stronger in a meta forced to shift away from that) got buffs as well.

Then, to top that all off they got Formations that buffed them even further. Everyone stating 'I'm not a top tier player but I took Eldar and lost, therefore they are not broken' needs to step back and consider the following.

Take two top tier players. Give one any other codex. Give the other Craftworlds. The units within Craftworlds are heavily stacked in their own favour. The Eldar have always been an army about synergy but now...welll...yeah. What more can I say? They have counters for just about everything you can throw at them and those counters are effective in multiple metas.

S6 multiple shot weapons perform remarkably well in a MC or Mech meta - just ask Tyranids. But they also function exceptionally well in a horde meta.

D-scythes are just amazing all rounders. Sure, 1/3rd of their shots will be a dud. But the other 2/3 times they will destroy any unit they come across. Furthermore the Wave Serpent is still a very sturdy transport. It's still a Fast Skimmer. The Serpent Shield is now disgustingly effective for removing threats to the transport. And if that's not enough you can still choose to stick Holofields on the bloody things to make them even harder to kill.

Why does everyone seem to think that Dark Eldar WWP shenanigans are mandatory? The Wave Serpent is still a monstrously effective beast that doesn't come with a tax.

The formations...hoo. The Aspect Host is downright evil. The shift from BS4 to BS5 on your shooting units? How many points is that actually worth, I wonder? I should imagine it's worth a pretty amount, especially when you consider it bumps the Exarchs (who have the longer ranged, more effective weapons) up to BS6.

And if you decide, hey, the best counter is psychic shenanigans? Hello Seer Council! Again, how much is harnessing a warp charge 66% of the time rather than 50% of the time actually worth? Again, probably a fair bit.

Hi all, new to the forums/40k. I'm currently building a CSM army.

I'm curious as to whether the people defending the new Craftworld codex are aware of how much everything costs in other codices. My biggest complaint about the craftworlds codex isn't about all the zany rules or common strength D weapons (aside from the warp spiders getting to move during MY shooting phase, I mean, wtf is that?) it's that the eldar don't pay for any of it.

Sure you can say, "Anyone can kill my scatbikes, they're only t4 3+!" but do you even care if they do? They're only 27 points apiece. A plasma gun costs me 15 points, not that it will matter, as my CSM models will never get in range to use them. I can take heldrakes and probably roast those bikes, but can't an elder player just take a bunch of ubiquitous and cheap EMLs and shoot them up?

And what do I do about wraith Knights? What's a point-efficient way of taking them out with a CSM army? I read a lot of elder apologists posting about how it's not that hard to kill them, but looking through my codex, I don't have anything that even remotely compares to a WK at any cost. Do I just shoot them with tons and tons of las cannons? Where do I get the points for that and still deal with the scatbikes/other nonsense?

I am a new player and as such I legitimately do need to L2P, so teach me how to play. It seems to me that everything in the elder codex beats everything in the CSM codex in a point-for-point comparison with distressingly few exceptions.

I realize this is an odd place for me to post as I don't plan on attending tourneys anytime soon, but I figured if the tourney players can't tell me how to field a reasonable anti-eldar CSM list no one can.

Macadamian Supremacist wrote:
Hi all, new to the forums/40k. I'm currently building a CSM army.

I'm curious as to whether the people defending the new Craftworld codex are aware of how much everything costs in other codices. My biggest complaint about the craftworlds codex isn't about all the zany rules or common strength D weapons (aside from the warp spiders getting to move during MY shooting phase, I mean, wtf is that?) it's that the eldar don't pay for any of it.

Sure you can say, "Anyone can kill my scatbikes, they're only t4 3+!" but do you even care if they do? They're only 27 points apiece. A plasma gun costs me 15 points, not that it will matter, as my CSM models will never get in range to use them. I can take heldrakes and probably roast those bikes, but can't an elder player just take a bunch of ubiquitous and cheap EMLs and shoot them up?

And what do I do about wraith Knights? What's a point-efficient way of taking them out with a CSM army? I read a lot of elder apologists posting about how it's not that hard to kill them, but looking through my codex, I don't have anything that even remotely compares to a WK at any cost. Do I just shoot them with tons and tons of las cannons? Where do I get the points for that and still deal with the scatbikes/other nonsense?

I am a new player and as such I legitimately do need to L2P, so teach me how to play. It seems to me that everything in the elder codex beats everything in the CSM codex in a point-for-point comparison with distressingly few exceptions.

I realize this is an odd place for me to post as I don't plan on attending tourneys anytime soon, but I figured if the tourney players can't tell me how to field a reasonable anti-eldar CSM list no one can.

This speaks more to the fact the CSM codex is just plain bad than the power of the eldar book. CSM and DA are both woefully underpowered and over costed codices that need a major overhaul to be competitive.

and the new eldar codex really helps with that.

Is a new codex for a different faction that isn't even battle brothers supposed to help out a codex from last edition? I didn't realize that.