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See mort that is what I was trying to tell you all along. Maybe now you are finally starting to understand what it is like on the other side of the fence.

 Zagman wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
You guys realize he was mocking the Eldar defenders...



Simple truth is that GW took what were already top tier choices and made then even better as well as buffed a lot of what was in the Eldar Dex after a trend of rebalancing towards a much lower point. Thankfully the fixed the Wave Serpent, if only they could have FAQed those changes two years ago. I mean the WK gains over a 50% increase in durability, Stomp, Strength D, etc all for just a 23% increase in Points. Its a damned shame GW had to go and wreck their 7th edition codex trend, they were putting out some, albeit bland, consistently internally and externally well balanced codices. Sure Necron was a bit of an oops, but damn did they ever botch Eldar. I would have enjoyed a full 7th edition release on par with the first half dozen 7th edition books. What worries me competitively is that GW will return to their lower power level balancing trend removing the options that actually stand a chance against Eldar.

All I can say is that I am happy it looks like at least NOVA is sticking to their no GMC/SHV/SHW LoW ruling as well as looking at a small modification to Strength D. It is the one thing stopping me from abandoning ship completely. If so, no WK, reigned in D shooting, no more Imperial Knights and Adamantine Lance once their new dex drops and labels them LoW.... at least at NOVA and that is a trend I'd like to see perpetuated.

Is no 2+/++ Rerollable, no GMC/SHW/SHV, and no FMC Flying Circus too much to ask?? Throw in some limits to Battle Brothers and I feel like we'd have something reasonable for a competitive landscape that would appeal to a greater number of players offering more varied army selections and play-styles.

#KeepApocOutOfMy40k

All those solutions do is create a new meta where Tyranids are once again unplayable and Space Marine builds, except DA of course, will rise to the top. Granted that meta will have the effect you're desiring. A SM dominant meta, being the most abundantly played faction, will mean an increase in tournament interest from otherwise "maligned" SM players. Maybe. But that increase in appeal to greater numbers of players wouldn't be the result of more varied army selections, it would be a result of a power shift toward "traditional" 40k armies like Space Marines.

Or maybe many of the disgusted players out there that have effectively quit would poke their heads back out, share time with their Warmachine etc armies and reenter the fray giving us higher attendance and a healthier scene.

Of course the Meta would shift, and its likely SM would begin to dominate, maybe not if Battle Brothers weren't such an issue, but the end result would be a narrowing of the overall power level gap in the game. The smaller the overall power level gap and the greater number of viable builds for tournament play across the widest array of different armies the better the hobby and the competitive scene will be in general. Given the trend, relative balance, and power level of most of the 7th edition releases we would be looking at a much narrower power level gap and closer more varied field of competition. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be "better".

A narrowing of the power level gap would only occur between the most powerful and those directly below. Your proposal only applies handicaps to the most powerful while supplying no boost at all to those codices residing at the lowest end of the spectrum. You wouldn't see a more diverse field of armies, you'd see a less diverse field. Those armies at the bottom won't be fielded anymore or less than they are now. Those at the top end, Tyranids excepted, would continue to be fielded in the same numbers as they would still be "good". The middle range armies who received a boost would be played more, skewed toward the SM books since they are already the most popular codices, creating a field full of MEQ armies. You would end up with a net reduction in field diversity and net increase in MEQ armies being played.

Dozer, Maybe you will stop trying to create this false sense of division? What is this fence and what side do you think anyone is on?

I don't only play Eldar and would be fine playing against Eldar with any of my other armies. I also don't win simply because I take super strong armies; news flash, my 86%~ win rate at GT type events are not because I took cookie cutter Eldar lists :/.

Elder will not break tournament play because tournament organizers are willing to adjust elder to be competetive instead of the stacked deck that it is. Even with the rumoured nerfs by tournament organizers elder are still the best codex in game and will dominate tournament play by both number of people playing them and placing. However at least there is the chance at a competitive level.
For the person saying tournament organizers overreacted to changes such as maelstrom you have to be joking. Maelstrom still as written is the most broken point system 40k has ever had and every time someone plays it as written you hear how much luck and Gand deciding drawing a maelstrom card is; in fact I haven't seen a single tournament not play modified maelstrom to keep it balanced which is exactly what I expect from the eldar codex from tournament organizers a heavily modified version to curb how broken and overpowered that codex is regardless of eldar players whining who think they are actually good players because their codex is overpowered. Even with d nerfs and banning Knights, scat bikes and improved seer stars and wwp wraiths, lethal fire dragons, warp spider shenanigans will continue to dominate the meta. Units like howling banshees that eldar screamed how much better they are will still rarely ever be seen.

After a phenomenally well balanced and praised lvo tournament and a close well balanced adepticon including the old eldar codex nova has the luxury of being the first U.S. Major to reign I. The gak that is eldar to make the event fun for all armies not just eldar players who think they are great players because they used the most broken codex.

The fence is a metaphorical allusion .

 megatrons2nd wrote:
"The fact that they got so much skyfire for free in EMLs...well, that's silly too."

The Dark Reapers Exarch's EML is now 20 points rather than the old 10 (+10 for Skyfire) for the launcher. It isn't free, at least not on models I own. It just is no longer an option.

However, anything that can have an EML...

Wave Serpents, Falcons, Vypers, War Walkers, Guardian Weapon platforms, War Walkers, Wraithlords...

All got the Skyfire missiles tacked on.

Before only the Dark Reapers could have it. Now everyone can. It's factored into the price of the weapon now. Essentially, it is free.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The fence is a metaphorical allusion .

Obviously, but I was asking for you to elaborate. Also, I don't think this discussion needs to degenerate into an "us versus them" mentality between people that think Eldar are OP and BrOkEn and those that think Eldar are fine. Either extreme of those positions and everything in-between is actually largely irrelevant unless supported by more than mere math-hammer and a smattering of battle reports. A sufficient amount of data from more games that have been played than what we have seen so far and a more robust discussion of points for/against is necessary.

Indeed, my position was not intended to come across as "L2P, Eldar are fine nubs," which is what some people have said my position has been. Essentially, all I've been saying at a fundamental level is that I am reserving judgment until I see more convincing evidence to the contrary of what I believe to be true. Forgive me if I prefer to be swayed by real world data/experience. You say Eldar are "OP" and too strong? I say wait and see.

Also, my position that I don't think Eldar are a problem is based on my experience/perspective/perception of things. Consequently, and given my gaming history/experience, I would consider myself as qualifying as an "expert witness" of sorts in terms of things 40k but that does not mean I can't be wrong. I just think an argument based on my opinion has more weight than random people's opinions that seem to be relying on nothing more than (1) numbers crunched in a vacuum; (2) small amount of selected battle reports; and, (3) their own knee-jerk reactions. Indeed, my main points in arguing in this thread have been to point out the logical inconsistencies/fallacious reasoning and foundations for saying Eldar are OP/Broken without a proper foundation having been laid to maintain such a position.

So I apologize if I come across as abrasive, but I give more weight to well thought out and supported statements, which have sadly been quite sparse in this thread...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
"The fact that they got so much skyfire for free in EMLs...well, that's silly too."

The Dark Reapers Exarch's EML is now 20 points rather than the old 10 (+10 for Skyfire) for the launcher. It isn't free, at least not on models I own. It just is no longer an option.

However, anything that can have an EML...

Wave Serpents, Falcons, Vypers, War Walkers, Guardian Weapon platforms, War Walkers, Wraithlords...

All got the Skyfire missiles tacked on.

Before only the Dark Reapers could have it. Now everyone can. It's factored into the price of the weapon now. Essentially, it is free.

Also, I don't think that EML getting the Skyfire shot included in the cost is anything to complain about. If anything, this leads me to believe that other armies that have access to Missile Launchers will get the same treatment. I mean was it ever worth it to pay 10 points for it to begin with? Is this really something worth complaining about? I'd like someone to point me to a single list that did well in a tournament that took the skyfire option in a missile launcher. Heck, I'd like someone to show me an Eldar list that ever even took EMLs that did well in a tournament.

The skyfire missiles don't ignore cover and are low RoF... I don't see them as a game changer.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL....."I'm amazing at this game and because I'm awesome I always play a strong codex against bad players." Big fish small pond syndrome.

I hate the new Eldar book for the same reason I have generally hated the Knight Codex, data slate formations etc. IT is forcing Apocalypse into a regular scale game. Which is a game that I don't find enjoyable. Minimal tactics, lots of dice rolling, lots of luck in the game that can make the game unenjoyable.

If there is so much luck and lack of skill involved now why is it the same players consistently finish in the top spots at major GTs, often not using the most "broken" things in the game?

almost all top tournament lists still include top tier units and mechanisms. You can for example, point to the lists with lictors that placed well, but only of you ignore the multiple ubiquitous flying hive tyrants.

Not to mention that the Lictors were just expensive Locator Beacons for the Mawlocs too. The Tyrants and the Mawlocs were the workhorse of the list. Lictors had little to do with its success.

I played against a list with my Eldar a couple Days ago. I took 1 wraithknight, and 5 wraithguard, plus 2 DA squads, and 1 squad of each of the other Aspects(except shining spears) and an Autarch. The only vehicle was a Crimson Hunter. I was playing against a list(or similar to it) that I had been unable to beat with my Dark Eldar, and my old Eldar codex. A demon list with Rerollable 2++ saves, and lots of Demon Princes and summoning. I beat said list in 3 turns. The Wraithguard got really lucky, and iced a demon prince with overwatch and a 6 on the D-roll. The Wraithknight killed a demon prince in melee by doubling him out. The Great unclean one got taken out by the wraithguard on turn 3, when we called the game. The Aspects took out some nurglings, tzeentch demons and cultists, but didn't do much else.

If I did not have the D weapons, I have no doubts that I would have lost that game. I have the feeling that this army is meant to reduce Deathstar units taken. I would like to see/try a game against an Orc or Tyranid Horde list.

I can also see where some builds will be horribly unbalanced.

 mortetvie wrote:

Also, I don't think that EML getting the Skyfire shot included in the cost is anything to complain about. If anything, this leads me to believe that other armies that have access to Missile Launchers will get the same treatment.

Well, we already know that's not the case. Khorne Daemonkin showed us that. And yes, CSM had access to skyfire missiles with havocs. But we certainly don't see Flakk missiles tacked in on Daemonkin missile lauchers - which, for the record would have given Skyfire to Helbrutes and Chaos Marines.

Point is though, the problem with Eldar as they stand isn't just the introduction of X or Y or Z alone. It's the fact they introduced X, Y and Z while buffing A, B and C as well.

The Imperial Knight codex gives no indicator of D-weapons becoming more commonplace and neither did Necrons or Daemonkin, which were both released with a similar format and structure to Craftworlds. Craftworlds is this bizarre oddity, much like Tau Empire and Eldar were in 6th - it's almost like they wrote it, pushed it to be published and then afterwards someone had a word with them and told them to tone it down.

And this is odd. If ranged D-weapons were going to become more commonplace? Fine. But so far we only see them on Monstrous Creatures that are certainly not spammable by any means due to their spot on the Force Org or on Superheavy vehicles - again, just as rare for the same reasons. And we don't even seem them at all on Imperial Knights, which is odd as that was the most logical spot to introduce them for this 'new approach'.

But then, 40k always gets messy when GW decide they need to do a power or style shift mid-edition. You get books that are so horribly bland and underpowered it hurts while you get new, shiny things that in comparison are stupidly overbalanced.

I'm still baffled as to why Eldar needed to be done before CSM and Dark Angels, considering that those two books are the most bland and weak books still currently out there, simply because they were the end of 5th/start of 6th design philosophy, before Eldar and Tau flipped the tables.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


I'm still baffled as to why Eldar needed to be done before CSM and Dark Angels, considering that those two books are the most bland and weak books still currently out there, simply because they were the end of 5th/start of 6th design philosophy, before Eldar and Tau flipped the tables.

That's because you are thinking in terms of what would make the game better. GW is thinking in terms of model releases. So they had jetbikes, the seers and the autarch ready to go so that's what they released. So sure CSM and DA really need an updated to make them more competitive, but if GW doesn't have any kits ready to release then they get nothing.

These Eldar kits were long-standing needs for the army. What do CSM and DA need in terms of models? I think they might be out of ideas on the CSM front. Last time we got dinobots and the hellturkey.

DA can have their own Tactical Squad and actual Command Squad with all banners and Chapter Relics in plastic. Interrogator Chaplain model would be welcome too. And maybe range of marine HQ on bikes: Interogator Chaplains, Librarinas and Techmarines. Plastic Azrael (his model is even out of scale with other marines) and Ezekiel (his model is fine, it do not realy need to change).

CSM can have Thousand Sons and Noise Marines redone. Some LR varients.

There are alot that could be done for this two codices.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


I'm still baffled as to why Eldar needed to be done before CSM and Dark Angels, considering that those two books are the most bland and weak books still currently out there, simply because they were the end of 5th/start of 6th design philosophy, before Eldar and Tau flipped the tables.

That's because you are thinking in terms of what would make the game better. GW is thinking in terms of model releases. So they had jetbikes, the seers and the autarch ready to go so that's what they released. So sure CSM and DA really need an updated to make them more competitive, but if GW doesn't have any kits ready to release then they get nothing.

These Eldar kits were long-standing needs for the army. What do CSM and DA need in terms of models? I think they might be out of ideas on the CSM front. Last time we got dinobots and the hellturkey.

Spot the new Eldar unit in the Craftworlds codex.

Go on, I'm waiting.

What do CSM need in terms of models? How about plastic clampack Lords or Sorcerers? How about a Lord/Sorcerer on bike option? How about a kit for Noise Marines that isn't reliant on you direct ordering finecast sonic weapons? How about multipart cultists? How about a Chosen kit? How about plastic Cult kits? How about a plastic Obliterator/Mutilator kit? How about a plastic Havok kit?

Plenty can be done for CSM.

And if no new models are needed for DA save a few characters going plastic? Well, that's an easy release then, isn't it?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Arschbombe wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


I'm still baffled as to why Eldar needed to be done before CSM and Dark Angels, considering that those two books are the most bland and weak books still currently out there, simply because they were the end of 5th/start of 6th design philosophy, before Eldar and Tau flipped the tables.

That's because you are thinking in terms of what would make the game better. GW is thinking in terms of model releases. So they had jetbikes, the seers and the autarch ready to go so that's what they released. So sure CSM and DA really need an updated to make them more competitive, but if GW doesn't have any kits ready to release then they get nothing.

These Eldar kits were long-standing needs for the army. What do CSM and DA need in terms of models? I think they might be out of ideas on the CSM front. Last time we got dinobots and the hellturkey.

Spot the new Eldar unit in the Craftworlds codex.

Go on, I'm waiting.

You'll be waiting for a while considering he said new models multiple times and not new units. As for CSM, the cult marines in plastic to my knowledge are still the 2nd/3rd ed versions that need a visual upgrade as much as the jetbikes did.

Yeah, but they've been confirmed sitting on that jetbike for years. AFAYK they aren't sitting on CSM stuff, though it wouldn't surprise me if they were. Trust me I would love for chaos to get some love, specifically the Slaanesh and Tzeentch parts considering they haven't had love in a while, didn't even get end times love.

 warboss wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Arschbombe wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


I'm still baffled as to why Eldar needed to be done before CSM and Dark Angels, considering that those two books are the most bland and weak books still currently out there, simply because they were the end of 5th/start of 6th design philosophy, before Eldar and Tau flipped the tables.

That's because you are thinking in terms of what would make the game better. GW is thinking in terms of model releases. So they had jetbikes, the seers and the autarch ready to go so that's what they released. So sure CSM and DA really need an updated to make them more competitive, but if GW doesn't have any kits ready to release then they get nothing.

These Eldar kits were long-standing needs for the army. What do CSM and DA need in terms of models? I think they might be out of ideas on the CSM front. Last time we got dinobots and the hellturkey.

Spot the new Eldar unit in the Craftworlds codex.

Go on, I'm waiting.

You'll be waiting for a while considering he said new models multiple times and not new units. As for CSM, the cult marines in plastic to my knowledge are still the 2nd/3rd ed versions that need a visual upgrade as much as the jetbikes did.

The Heldrake and Maulfiend were new units altogether. Don't reference them if not referring to new units as they did not exist before. Plus Eldar got new units in 6th as well.

Eldar got the following this release...

Farseer/Warlock on Jetbike
Autarch in plastic
New Jetbikes.

The jetbikes needed to be updated, I'll agree with that. The Bikeseer is a nice thing as well, again, it fills a niche.
You had Autarchs since 4th. The models weren't dated at all.

CSM still don't have any plastic power armour character sets or clampacks aside from the Aspiring Champion.
CSM don't have any bike character sets.
Our cult units have been around since 3rd edition and are either horribly dated plastics, finecast or finecast plastic hybrids.
We can only get monopose snap fit cultists. Seriously. What. The Hell?
We have no Chosen kit.
Our Havocs are finecast-plastic hybrids that date back to 3rd edition.
The Obliterators date back to 3rd and they seem to have missed the ball for the 3 model kit with Mutilators being the same models with different arms and heads.

Hells, the Space Marine range has been updated more than the CSM range has. I kid you not. New plastic SM kit in 3rd. Recut sprues in 5th. New sprues in 6th.

We've the sprues in 3rd, recut in 4th....

Yeah, Chaos need a lot in terms of model love.

It's not about who deserves what. It's about what GW wants to do. For example, we know that the new jetbike model was sculpted before 2009. It could have been released two years ago with the 6th edition Eldar codex. But they chose to focus on Wraith units instead. Would it have hurt them to release the bikes then too? I don't think so, but GW apparently did.

Remember all the crying about Dark Eldar in 4th and 5th because their codex was old and the models horrible? It took a very long time for GW to update the rules because they didn't have the models ready. Same thing with the Necrons. When they finally did have the models ready for the old-style big, monthly release they released them. In sixth, the emphasis shifted to bigger, higher margin kits and so CSM got Heldrakes and Maulerfiends instead of better Havocs and Berserkers. I'm sure the Chapterhouse debacle was part of that decision too. GW no longer releases rules without a model to go with it.

GW is moving away from Finecast now, which is why the Autarch was redone even though it was only first released in 2006 in metal. I'm sure that GW is well aware of which kits need to be updated in CSM and other factions. They might even have a bunch of kits ready for the next CSM release, some of which could have been released years ago.

Except that they've been supposedly moving away from Finecast for a while...

And the Aspect Warriors are still Finecast.

(Well, except my own. Bless you 4th edition purchases of metal delight).

Yep. Poor aspects. I spent some time on ebay hunting down metal banshees and scorpions once Finecast started coming out. There were rumors two years ago about plastic aspect combo-kits that haven't panned out. Maybe we'll see them when Eldar get a new codex in 2017. LOL.

Another example I thought was funny was the Hive Tyrant. It was a decent metal kit in 4th. GW switched it to Finecast less than a year before they released the new plastic kit. What was the point of that?

Finecast does seem to be going away, just not as quickly as people would like. When was the last new Finecast model released? There don't seem to be new ones coming anymore.

 mortetvie wrote:


So I apologize if I come across as abrasive, but I give more weight to well thought out and supported statements, which have sadly been quite sparse in this thread...

So you apologize while swinging that left hook... yea, real classy.

Actually, if you reread the thread, several people did post lengthy well thought posts. Maybe not as long winded as yours, but your posts are just a broken record. You go in circles saying the SAME thing (L2P) then telling everyone else they aren't understanding you. So people got tired of your filibusterer approach.

In reality I don't think you understand your own words. I mean, you even doubled back and changed your position recently, yet you made sure to plug your skill at the game AGAIN. That's why I suggested you have a chip on your shoulder, because it's pretty obvious you do.

Also, you keep labeling ALL opposing viewpoints to your own as "People crying OP" and your last post even suggested we stop creating a divide while yet again throwing that jab in "OP and BrOkEn".... you literally troll spelled broken that way. Your early labeling of people created a massive divide if anything.

Get off that high horse first, then maybe people will take your points more seriously.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:


So I apologize if I come across as abrasive, but I give more weight to well thought out and supported statements, which have sadly been quite sparse in this thread...

So you apologize while swinging that left hook... yea, real classy.

Actually, if you reread the thread, several people did post lengthy well thought posts. Maybe not as long winded as yours, but your posts are just a broken record. You go in circles saying the SAME thing (L2P) then telling everyone else they aren't understanding you. So people got tired of your filibusterer approach.

In reality I don't think you understand your own words. I mean, you even doubled back and changed your position recently, yet you made sure to plug your skill at the game AGAIN. That's why I suggested you have a chip on your shoulder, because it's pretty obvious you do.

Also, you keep labeling ALL opposing viewpoints to your own as "People crying OP" and your last post even suggested we stop creating a divide while yet again throwing that jab in "OP and BrOkEn".... you literally troll spelled broken that way. Your early labeling of people created a massive divide if anything.

Get off that high horse first, then maybe people will take your points more seriously.

It is sad how it just appears as though you like to take one small aspect of what I've said, ignore everything else then attack/distort what I never actually said nor implied. Indeed, nothing you said about me or my posts is true. But yes, you are welcome to make personal attacks and misstate what another person is trying to communicate-this is the internet, after all.

Played against a damn good player who ran the new eldar. I play straight up Dark Eldar. We played a ITC mission. It was a bloody game, and I lost many a unit. In the end I out maneuvered him by killing his Serpents ( which is still pretty tough) and leaving my fast units alive to grab objectives in the end. The nerf to Serpents is so huge that it effects the dex more than any buff (and there are quite a few) Eldar have received. As for Wraith Knights... Shoot everything at that F'er for a turn, maybe 2 and watch it go down. Assault armies just have to take enough power fist/claws/rending whatever to take it down. "Oh, what if the WK is fortunes though?" Then kill that rat bastard seer council first. Let the wraith knight eat a couple small units in the first couple turns. You will probably be getting Slay the Warlord at that point. I have played this guy and his army many times with my DE and he has kicked my ass every time. This was a welcome change. And here's the tag line of this whole post: "Eldar are no longer the best army in the game" (drops mic)

 oddworx wrote:
Played against a damn good player who ran the new eldar. I play straight up Dark Eldar. We played a ITC mission. It was a bloody game, and I lost many a unit. In the end I out maneuvered him by killing his Serpents ( which is still pretty tough) and leaving my fast units alive to grab objectives in the end. The nerf to Serpents is so huge that it effects the dex more than any buff (and there are quite a few) Eldar have received. As for Wraith Knights... Shoot everything at that F'er for a turn, maybe 2 and watch it go down. Assault armies just have to take enough power fist/claws/rending whatever to take it down. "Oh, what if the WK is fortunes though?" Then kill that rat bastard seer council first. Let the wraith knight eat a couple small units in the first couple turns. You will probably be getting Slay the Warlord at that point. I have played this guy and his army many times with my DE and he has kicked my ass every time. This was a welcome change. And here's the tag line of this whole post: "Eldar are no longer the best army in the game" (drops mic)

Ha, grats on that win. I think from what I've seen, you tend to do a lot of MSU type lists? I think those type of lists will do well against Eldar in general. Serpents no longer having those 60" d6+1 shots at S7 ignoring cover every turn will hurt Eldar shooting a lot so I imagine Eldar will need to look to other places to get effective shooting to replace what the Serpent Shield offered. Indeed, I first saw the Serpent Shield rules in the previous codex, I actually thought the 60" was 6". If the Serpent Shield had a 6" range in previous dex, I don't think it would have been as problematic.

It seems like Eldar now have have S4-6 shooting even more than before with the potential for S8 here and there on various platforms (probably Crimson Death/Falcon formation/War Walkers will be best source for S8+). Therefore, to reliably deal with AV12+, Eldar will need to rely on units that can get close like Dragons or Spiders who can get to vulnerable facings. There is a HUGE difference between S6 spam and S7 shooting against AV12+.

What did the respective lists look like?

 Red Corsair wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:


So I apologize if I come across as abrasive, but I give more weight to well thought out and supported statements, which have sadly been quite sparse in this thread...

So you apologize while swinging that left hook... yea, real classy.

Actually, if you reread the thread, several people did post lengthy well thought posts. Maybe not as long winded as yours, but your posts are just a broken record. You go in circles saying the SAME thing (L2P) then telling everyone else they aren't understanding you. So people got tired of your filibusterer approach.

In reality I don't think you understand your own words. I mean, you even doubled back and changed your position recently, yet you made sure to plug your skill at the game AGAIN. That's why I suggested you have a chip on your shoulder, because it's pretty obvious you do.

Also, you keep labeling ALL opposing viewpoints to your own as "People crying OP" and your last post even suggested we stop creating a divide while yet again throwing that jab in "OP and BrOkEn".... you literally troll spelled broken that way. Your early labeling of people created a massive divide if anything.

Get off that high horse first, then maybe people will take your points more seriously.

anytime someone quotes their own win percentage you know all hope is lost...

 mortetvie wrote:

 oddworx wrote:
Played against a damn good player who ran the new eldar. I play straight up Dark Eldar. We played a ITC mission. It was a bloody game, and I lost many a unit. In the end I out maneuvered him by killing his Serpents ( which is still pretty tough) and leaving my fast units alive to grab objectives in the end. The nerf to Serpents is so huge that it effects the dex more than any buff (and there are quite a few) Eldar have received. As for Wraith Knights... Shoot everything at that F'er for a turn, maybe 2 and watch it go down. Assault armies just have to take enough power fist/claws/rending whatever to take it down. "Oh, what if the WK is fortunes though?" Then kill that rat bastard seer council first. Let the wraith knight eat a couple small units in the first couple turns. You will probably be getting Slay the Warlord at that point. I have played this guy and his army many times with my DE and he has kicked my ass every time. This was a welcome change. And here's the tag line of this whole post: "Eldar are no longer the best army in the game" (drops mic)

Ha, grats on that win. I think from what I've seen, you tend to do a lot of MSU type lists? I think those type of lists will do well against Eldar in general. Serpents no longer having those 60" d6+1 shots at S7 ignoring cover every turn will hurt Eldar shooting a lot so I imagine Eldar will need to look to other places to get effective shooting to replace what the Serpent Shield offered. Indeed, I first saw the Serpent Shield rules in the previous codex, I actually thought the 60" was 6". If the Serpent Shield had a 6" range in previous dex, I don't think it would have been as problematic.

It seems like Eldar now have have S4-6 shooting even more than before with the potential for S8 here and there on various platforms (probably Crimson Death/Falcon formation/War Walkers will be best source for S8+). Therefore, to reliably deal with AV12+, Eldar will need to rely on units that can get close like Dragons or Spiders who can get to vulnerable facings. There is a HUGE difference between S6 spam and S7 shooting against AV12+.

What did the respective lists look like?

I'm going to disagree about AV12. Three Scattbikes(81pts) strips 1.33 HP off of AV12 per turn, a Serpent with Scatter/Shield only strips 1.92HP/Turn. Scatt Bikes are actually more significantly more efficient against AV12 than Wave Serpents were for cost when the min DA squad was factored in) when cover wasn't a factor. And are virtually identical if 4+ cover is in play.

Cheap Scatter Lasers are efficient Anti AV12. It takes on average 27 S6 shots to strip 3HP off of AV12. 30 Scattterbikes(Magic Number) would average stripping 13.3HP off of AV12 in a single turn.

Speaking as a very casual player who has a game maybe once or twice a month with good friends, I dont see the point in arguing about the strength of the codex with the occasional posters who insist it isnt crazy powerful.

Everybody knows that it is. I know two good lads who play Eldar and neither would dream of saying "L2P."

Claiming the Eldar Codex isn't a bit hardcore is like claiming that Paris is in Germany. You can do it, but.... whats the point when everybody already knows the answer?

Serpents are sturdier than scatbikes - mathhammer in a vacuum can be meaningless.

 mortetvie wrote:

 oddworx wrote:
Played against a damn good player who ran the new eldar. I play straight up Dark Eldar. We played a ITC mission. It was a bloody game, and I lost many a unit. In the end I out maneuvered him by killing his Serpents ( which is still pretty tough) and leaving my fast units alive to grab objectives in the end. The nerf to Serpents is so huge that it effects the dex more than any buff (and there are quite a few) Eldar have received. As for Wraith Knights... Shoot everything at that F'er for a turn, maybe 2 and watch it go down. Assault armies just have to take enough power fist/claws/rending whatever to take it down. "Oh, what if the WK is fortunes though?" Then kill that rat bastard seer council first. Let the wraith knight eat a couple small units in the first couple turns. You will probably be getting Slay the Warlord at that point. I have played this guy and his army many times with my DE and he has kicked my ass every time. This was a welcome change. And here's the tag line of this whole post: "Eldar are no longer the best army in the game" (drops mic)

Ha, grats on that win. I think from what I've seen, you tend to do a lot of MSU type lists? I think those type of lists will do well against Eldar in general. Serpents no longer having those 60" d6+1 shots at S7 ignoring cover every turn will hurt Eldar shooting a lot so I imagine Eldar will need to look to other places to get effective shooting to replace what the Serpent Shield offered. Indeed, I first saw the Serpent Shield rules in the previous codex, I actually thought the 60" was 6". If the Serpent Shield had a 6" range in previous dex, I don't think it would have been as problematic.

It seems like Eldar now have have S4-6 shooting even more than before with the potential for S8 here and there on various platforms (probably Crimson Death/Falcon formation/War Walkers will be best source for S8+). Therefore, to reliably deal with AV12+, Eldar will need to rely on units that can get close like Dragons or Spiders who can get to vulnerable facings. There is a HUGE difference between S6 spam and S7 shooting against AV12+.

What did the respective lists look like?

I agree Mort. That 1 strength on that one vehicle was so over the top that it skewed the entire perception of the whole army. Also getting rid of Laser Lock was big too.


His list was something like.

Seer Council. 2 Farseers, 5ish Warlocks

X3, 5 DA, Wave Serpent, BL

5 Fire Dragons, Wave Serpent, BL

Karandras, 7ish Striking Scorpions (infiltrating)

3 Vibro Cannons

2 War Walkers, all scatter lasers

I had Realspace Raiders Detachment

Archon, Shadow Field, Armor of Mis, Soul Trap, Agonizer. Venom, Xtra Cannon

4 incubi, Klaivex,

X 4 units of Kabs (stock) in Venoms, Xtra Cannon

2 Ravagers, 3 Lances each,

3 Talos, all Heat Lances

9 Reavers, Arena Champ, 3 Clusters

6 Reavers, 2 Clusters

1 Razorwing. Stock

5 Scourges, 4 Dark Lances

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Serpents are sturdier than scatbikes - mathhammer in a vacuum can be meaningless.

Of course. I was just emphasizing that bringing the firepower required is not difficult. Yes, they are less durable, but that is offset by the significantly greater damage per point of the Scattbikes.

Adam said it would be difficult to reliably deal with AV12, I pointed to one unit that puts out significant firepower which can do it, and does it more efficiently than the Serpent it replaced.