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2015/05/07 01:17:03
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
I am thinking that top players not bringing eldar will change it up to counter the scatbikes which I think is overall easier to accomplish than the 6e serpents. For example Ghost Arks can be really good if Necron players can counter the new Wraithknight. Of course all this is very obvious.
I am thinking that top players not bringing eldar will change it up to counter the scatbikes which I think is overall easier to accomplish than the 6e serpents. For example Ghost Arks can be really good if Necron players can counter the new Wraithknight. Of course all this is very obvious.
It's going to interesting.
It certainly will be!
Unfortunately there are many more attendees than just the top guys, who will be able to handle Eldar, and it's the rest of the field that really gets hammered.
I'm not worried about the Wraithknight, I won't play in any tournament that allows them, or any GC/LoW. #GetApocOutOfMy40k
oddworx wrote: Played against a damn good player who ran the new eldar. I play straight up Dark Eldar. We played a ITC mission. It was a bloody game, and I lost many a unit. In the end I out maneuvered him by killing his Serpents ( which is still pretty tough) and leaving my fast units alive to grab objectives in the end. The nerf to Serpents is so huge that it effects the dex more than any buff (and there are quite a few) Eldar have received. As for Wraith Knights... Shoot everything at that F'er for a turn, maybe 2 and watch it go down. Assault armies just have to take enough power fist/claws/rending whatever to take it down. "Oh, what if the WK is fortunes though?" Then kill that rat bastard seer council first. Let the wraith knight eat a couple small units in the first couple turns. You will probably be getting Slay the Warlord at that point. I have played this guy and his army many times with my DE and he has kicked my ass every time. This was a welcome change. And here's the tag line of this whole post: "Eldar are no longer the best army in the game" (drops mic)
Ha, grats on that win. I think from what I've seen, you tend to do a lot of MSU type lists? I think those type of lists will do well against Eldar in general. Serpents no longer having those 60" d6+1 shots at S7 ignoring cover every turn will hurt Eldar shooting a lot so I imagine Eldar will need to look to other places to get effective shooting to replace what the Serpent Shield offered. Indeed, I first saw the Serpent Shield rules in the previous codex, I actually thought the 60" was 6". If the Serpent Shield had a 6" range in previous dex, I don't think it would have been as problematic.
It seems like Eldar now have have S4-6 shooting even more than before with the potential for S8 here and there on various platforms (probably Crimson Death/Falcon formation/War Walkers will be best source for S8+). Therefore, to reliably deal with AV12+, Eldar will need to rely on units that can get close like Dragons or Spiders who can get to vulnerable facings. There is a HUGE difference between S6 spam and S7 shooting against AV12+.
What did the respective lists look like?
I'm going to disagree about AV12. Three Scattbikes(81pts) strips 1.33 HP off of AV12 per turn, a Serpent with Scatter/Shield only strips 1.92HP/Turn. Scatt Bikes are actually more significantly more efficient against AV12 than Wave Serpents were for cost when the min DA squad was factored in) when cover wasn't a factor. And are virtually identical if 4+ cover is in play.
Cheap Scatter Lasers are efficient Anti AV12. It takes on average 27 S6 shots to strip 3HP off of AV12. 30 Scattterbikes(Magic Number) would average stripping 13.3HP off of AV12 in a single turn.
Well Zagman, I don't think my dice have a 6 on them but 2 1s instead! Anyway, my point was S6 may be ok to strip HP off if taken in sufficient numbers but when you have infantry you need to take out or vehicles you need to take out-I'd rather shoot the Scatter Lasers at something with a T value. Specifically, Scatter Lasers and other S6 is probably only going to be engaging AV 12 as a last resort rather than be someone's first choice and S8>S6 when it comes to AV12+. This depends on the army you are facing, of course, and what targets are available. Regardless, Jetbikes lose efficiency pretty fast when they get blown out of the sky and die as they will likely have a pretty big target on them.
oddworx wrote: Played against a damn good player who ran the new eldar. I play straight up Dark Eldar. We played a ITC mission. It was a bloody game, and I lost many a unit. In the end I out maneuvered him by killing his Serpents ( which is still pretty tough) and leaving my fast units alive to grab objectives in the end. The nerf to Serpents is so huge that it effects the dex more than any buff (and there are quite a few) Eldar have received. As for Wraith Knights... Shoot everything at that F'er for a turn, maybe 2 and watch it go down. Assault armies just have to take enough power fist/claws/rending whatever to take it down. "Oh, what if the WK is fortunes though?" Then kill that rat bastard seer council first. Let the wraith knight eat a couple small units in the first couple turns. You will probably be getting Slay the Warlord at that point. I have played this guy and his army many times with my DE and he has kicked my ass every time. This was a welcome change. And here's the tag line of this whole post: "Eldar are no longer the best army in the game" (drops mic)
Ha, grats on that win. I think from what I've seen, you tend to do a lot of MSU type lists? I think those type of lists will do well against Eldar in general. Serpents no longer having those 60" d6+1 shots at S7 ignoring cover every turn will hurt Eldar shooting a lot so I imagine Eldar will need to look to other places to get effective shooting to replace what the Serpent Shield offered. Indeed, I first saw the Serpent Shield rules in the previous codex, I actually thought the 60" was 6". If the Serpent Shield had a 6" range in previous dex, I don't think it would have been as problematic.
It seems like Eldar now have have S4-6 shooting even more than before with the potential for S8 here and there on various platforms (probably Crimson Death/Falcon formation/War Walkers will be best source for S8+). Therefore, to reliably deal with AV12+, Eldar will need to rely on units that can get close like Dragons or Spiders who can get to vulnerable facings. There is a HUGE difference between S6 spam and S7 shooting against AV12+.
What did the respective lists look like?
I agree Mort. That 1 strength on that one vehicle was so over the top that it skewed the entire perception of the whole army. Also getting rid of Laser Lock was big too.
Seemed like an interesting set of lists-surprised he took Vibro Cannons and Bright Lances on the Serpents. I still think Scatter is best on Serpent. How did the Razorwing do for you?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/07 02:43:55
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
oddworx wrote: Played against a damn good player who ran the new eldar. I play straight up Dark Eldar. We played a ITC mission. It was a bloody game, and I lost many a unit. In the end I out maneuvered him by killing his Serpents ( which is still pretty tough) and leaving my fast units alive to grab objectives in the end. The nerf to Serpents is so huge that it effects the dex more than any buff (and there are quite a few) Eldar have received. As for Wraith Knights... Shoot everything at that F'er for a turn, maybe 2 and watch it go down. Assault armies just have to take enough power fist/claws/rending whatever to take it down. "Oh, what if the WK is fortunes though?" Then kill that rat bastard seer council first. Let the wraith knight eat a couple small units in the first couple turns. You will probably be getting Slay the Warlord at that point. I have played this guy and his army many times with my DE and he has kicked my ass every time. This was a welcome change. And here's the tag line of this whole post: "Eldar are no longer the best army in the game" (drops mic)
Ha, grats on that win. I think from what I've seen, you tend to do a lot of MSU type lists? I think those type of lists will do well against Eldar in general. Serpents no longer having those 60" d6+1 shots at S7 ignoring cover every turn will hurt Eldar shooting a lot so I imagine Eldar will need to look to other places to get effective shooting to replace what the Serpent Shield offered. Indeed, I first saw the Serpent Shield rules in the previous codex, I actually thought the 60" was 6". If the Serpent Shield had a 6" range in previous dex, I don't think it would have been as problematic.
It seems like Eldar now have have S4-6 shooting even more than before with the potential for S8 here and there on various platforms (probably Crimson Death/Falcon formation/War Walkers will be best source for S8+). Therefore, to reliably deal with AV12+, Eldar will need to rely on units that can get close like Dragons or Spiders who can get to vulnerable facings. There is a HUGE difference between S6 spam and S7 shooting against AV12+.
What did the respective lists look like?
I'm going to disagree about AV12. Three Scattbikes(81pts) strips 1.33 HP off of AV12 per turn, a Serpent with Scatter/Shield only strips 1.92HP/Turn. Scatt Bikes are actually more significantly more efficient against AV12 than Wave Serpents were for cost when the min DA squad was factored in) when cover wasn't a factor. And are virtually identical if 4+ cover is in play.
Cheap Scatter Lasers are efficient Anti AV12. It takes on average 27 S6 shots to strip 3HP off of AV12. 30 Scattterbikes(Magic Number) would average stripping 13.3HP off of AV12 in a single turn.
Well Zagman, I don't think my dice have a 6 on them but 2 1s instead! Anyway, my point was S6 may be ok to strip HP off if taken in sufficient numbers but when you have infantry you need to take out or vehicles you need to take out-I'd rather shoot the Scatter Lasers at something with a T value. Specifically, Scatter Lasers and other S6 is probably only going to be engaging AV 12 as a last resort rather than be someone's first choice and S8>S6 when it comes to AV12+. This depends on the army you are facing, of course, and what targets are available. Regardless, Jetbikes lose efficiency pretty fast when they get blown out of the sky and die as they will likely have a pretty big target on them.
oddworx wrote: Played against a damn good player who ran the new eldar. I play straight up Dark Eldar. We played a ITC mission. It was a bloody game, and I lost many a unit. In the end I out maneuvered him by killing his Serpents ( which is still pretty tough) and leaving my fast units alive to grab objectives in the end. The nerf to Serpents is so huge that it effects the dex more than any buff (and there are quite a few) Eldar have received. As for Wraith Knights... Shoot everything at that F'er for a turn, maybe 2 and watch it go down. Assault armies just have to take enough power fist/claws/rending whatever to take it down. "Oh, what if the WK is fortunes though?" Then kill that rat bastard seer council first. Let the wraith knight eat a couple small units in the first couple turns. You will probably be getting Slay the Warlord at that point. I have played this guy and his army many times with my DE and he has kicked my ass every time. This was a welcome change. And here's the tag line of this whole post: "Eldar are no longer the best army in the game" (drops mic)
Ha, grats on that win. I think from what I've seen, you tend to do a lot of MSU type lists? I think those type of lists will do well against Eldar in general. Serpents no longer having those 60" d6+1 shots at S7 ignoring cover every turn will hurt Eldar shooting a lot so I imagine Eldar will need to look to other places to get effective shooting to replace what the Serpent Shield offered. Indeed, I first saw the Serpent Shield rules in the previous codex, I actually thought the 60" was 6". If the Serpent Shield had a 6" range in previous dex, I don't think it would have been as problematic.
It seems like Eldar now have have S4-6 shooting even more than before with the potential for S8 here and there on various platforms (probably Crimson Death/Falcon formation/War Walkers will be best source for S8+). Therefore, to reliably deal with AV12+, Eldar will need to rely on units that can get close like Dragons or Spiders who can get to vulnerable facings. There is a HUGE difference between S6 spam and S7 shooting against AV12+.
What did the respective lists look like?
I agree Mort. That 1 strength on that one vehicle was so over the top that it skewed the entire perception of the whole army. Also getting rid of Laser Lock was big too.
Seemed like an interesting set of lists-surprised he took Vibro Cannons and Bright Lances on the Serpents. I still think Scatter is best on Serpent. How did the Razorwing do for you?
Funny you should ask. The Razorwing was the All Star. Took out Karandras and most of his boys by firing all four missiles at once.
This is a awesome sig
2015/05/07 06:37:43
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Nice-I definitely look forward to trying out the Crimson Death formation. I hear it shoots Wraithguard and runs on the tears of those that had to face Serpents last edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/07 06:38:22
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
In my game last week, with the new codex, two of my serpents (Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon) that I kept with the same loadout as the week before to see how differently they played, engaged in a slap fight with my opponent's serpent (EML, no cannon). Ultimately: He got one of mine when his Autarch chucked a Haywire grenade at it to strip the last hull point. I got his when my Hornets stepped in, said, 'this is how it's done' and blew it up. He got my last one when, having failed to tank shock his Guardians off the table, they gleefully assaulted and glanced it to death with Plasma grenades.
The loss of Laserlock and the reconfiguration of the Serpent Shield have completely redefined the Wave Serpent's battlefield capacity (and therefore its role). It went from being the best gunboat in the game to being the best (most durable, fastest) transport in the game.
2015/05/07 13:44:52
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
DCannon4Life wrote: In my game last week, with the new codex, two of my serpents (Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon) that I kept with the same loadout as the week before to see how differently they played, engaged in a slap fight with my opponent's serpent (EML, no cannon). Ultimately: He got one of mine when his Autarch chucked a Haywire grenade at it to strip the last hull point. I got his when my Hornets stepped in, said, 'this is how it's done' and blew it up. He got my last one when, having failed to tank shock his Guardians off the table, they gleefully assaulted and glanced it to death with Plasma grenades.
The loss of Laserlock and the reconfiguration of the Serpent Shield have completely redefined the Wave Serpent's battlefield capacity (and therefore its role). It went from being the best gunboat in the game to being the best (most durable, fastest) transport in the game.
This to me is not a bad thing.
You know, considering it was always intended as a transport and not as a gunboat.
Now only a CSM player.
2015/05/07 14:04:33
Subject: Re:Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
DCannon4Life wrote: In my game last week, with the new codex, two of my serpents (Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon) that I kept with the same loadout as the week before to see how differently they played, engaged in a slap fight with my opponent's serpent (EML, no cannon). Ultimately: He got one of mine when his Autarch chucked a Haywire grenade at it to strip the last hull point. I got his when my Hornets stepped in, said, 'this is how it's done' and blew it up. He got my last one when, having failed to tank shock his Guardians off the table, they gleefully assaulted and glanced it to death with Plasma grenades.
The loss of Laserlock and the reconfiguration of the Serpent Shield have completely redefined the Wave Serpent's battlefield capacity (and therefore its role). It went from being the best gunboat in the game to being the best (most durable, fastest) transport in the game.
And that is the way it should be. Being the best Transport and the Best Gunboat was ridiculous for its cost. Now, it is merely the best and fastest Transport in the game.
Why don't you mention how you oneshotted another Wraithknight... something most Tau Gunlines would need two turns to do.
At least Eldar are evenly matched against themselves.....
@DarkStar Sabre: Don't mean to imply that it's bad at all. It may even be a positive in an unexpected way--opponents won't try so hard to kill them (they have a reduced threat profile) which means they might still be around for late game/last turn objective grabbing. Their survivability, with the change to holofields from +1 to cover save to 5++ is worse vs. weapons that don't ignore cover and better against weapons that do (right?). So...net gain?
I do mean to point out that they have been effectively neutered. The only choice (for me) now is to decide whether to run my serpents with Bright Lances or EML. I think Shuriken Cannons will go back in the bin.
@Zagman: Spoilers! If people want to know how my game went, they can go watch the battle report! But yes, I held my Wraith Knight in reserve, Deep Struck on turn two, hit his knight twice and rolled a '6' on the D chart. I would like to point out that I did the same thing in my last game with the 6th Ed. codex (Distortion), but in that game he failed a cover save.... On the bottom of turn two his Wraith Guard came in and D-ed my Wraith Knight. Tit for tat.
I'm looking to get a game vs. an Imperial Knight/Grey Knight/Imperial Guard list tonight, and I'll make a report of it too. That or Necrons. /shrug
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/07 14:11:31
2015/05/07 15:29:13
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
ConanMan wrote: Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.
You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..
Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.
Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.
Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.
I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.
When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.
95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.
that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese
I like the cut of your jib
2015/05/07 15:41:13
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
With the new Knight book coming out, I think we will need to revisit the 1 LOW option that a lot of tournaments run with. Otherwise Knights can no longer be fielded and are standard codex. So there is now another buff to Eldar in play, they can field multiple Wraithknights again if the 1 LOW is removed.
2015/05/07 15:48:25
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Thimn wrote: With the new Knight book coming out, I think we will need to revisit the 1 LOW option that a lot of tournaments run with. Otherwise Knights can no longer be fielded and are standard codex. So there is now another buff to Eldar in play, they can field multiple Wraithknights again if the 1 LOW is removed.
Given how much negative feedback there is towards IK armies in tournaments, and they have by far the winninest percentage, I doubt many tournaments will remove the 1 LoW option. I sincerely hope they do not, and I am really hoping NOVA sticks to its guns with no GC/SHLoWs which effectively removes Wraithknights and IKs from play. Keeping my fingers crossed we retain some sanity.
Its really hard to outright ban a codex from an event though. Its a bog standard army in 40k and to remove it would really be changing the game big time. Its really a bigger boon for the Eldar that the Knight book is dropping. The Wraithknights are superior and cheaper to the Knights and would be able to field as many as they like.
Punishing Knights because of another Codex seems backwards thinking.
2015/05/07 16:02:13
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Thimn wrote: Its really hard to outright ban a codex from an event though. Its a bog standard army in 40k and to remove it would really be changing the game big time. Its really a bigger boon for the Eldar that the Knight book is dropping. The Wraithknights are superior and cheaper to the Knights and would be able to field as many as they like.
Punishing Knights because of another Codex seems backwards thinking.
It is not outright banning a codex, its outright banning a book filled with nothing but SHW LoWs. GW may be calling it a codex, but lets not delude ourselves into believing its anything like the "Standard" Codices.
A line against Apoc in 40k has to be drawn somewhere, and at GC/SHLoWs seems like a pretty damned good place to start.
Sorry but currently it is a codex with essentially 1 unit in it. Not all that much different than a data slate. It is also all superheavies (making it very different from those other books.)
It is a codex in name but it is very different than other books. Then again I think it has been bad for the game since it was released.
2015/05/07 17:21:24
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
The "iKnights is a Codex!" argument is ultra shaky.
It's not like people would be totally OK with banning Craftworlds if GW had randomly decided to change their naming structure to Army Book: Craftworlds instead of Codex: Craftworlds.
Further, if they didn't put the word "codex" on iKnights, it's not as if people who now want to use it would be like YOU'RE RIGHT IT'S NOT A CODEX ANYMORE BAN IT!
Weakest, least impactful argument made about whether or not to use iKnights.
2015/05/07 17:36:12
Subject: Re:Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Well, Knights are a full codex in a sense-but that is largely irrelevant. I mean, if they did codex: Wraith Knight and supported it with each Wraith Knight having a unique spirit stone/personality and rules and all you had was an army of 4-6 slightly different Wraith Knights, I don't think that would go over too well but that is effectively what the Knight codex is.
So saying "but it is a codex..." is not a good reason to either include or exclude something. You need to look at how it affects the game as a whole-among other things-and I think that is what many TOs are doing. Any decision making process to balance things out is bound to make some people upset and since there really isn't a clear metric on what makes 40k, or any game completely balanced, I don't think we really have any basis to criticize a TOs decision other than what our own personal preference is. And at that point, we end up with an arguments like "that restaurant only serves steak but I am a vegan so that restaurant is wrong!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/07 17:41:07
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
MVBrandt wrote: The "iKnights is a Codex!" argument is ultra shaky.
It's not like people would be totally OK with banning Craftworlds if GW had randomly decided to change their naming structure to Army Book: Craftworlds instead of Codex: Craftworlds.
Further, if they didn't put the word "codex" on iKnights, it's not as if people who now want to use it would be like YOU'RE RIGHT IT'S NOT A CODEX ANYMORE BAN IT!
Weakest, least impactful argument made about whether or not to use iKnights.
You no longer run nova, you shalt be stripped of your to title, the council of wise entitled bols posters who only play apoc have spoken, Case closed
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/07 17:39:24
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2015/05/07 18:02:34
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Well fair enough I suppose. I have never had a problem with Knights in the game (don't own one) but if the consensus is that they need to be removed from 40k for balance reasons I can't fault it.
Bringing it back on topic, keeping the Knights out of tournaments would still than hamper the Eldar codex which I imagine most people want.
2015/05/07 18:31:15
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Thimn wrote: Well fair enough I suppose. I have never had a problem with Knights in the game (don't own one) but if the consensus is that they need to be removed from 40k for balance reasons I can't fault it.
Bringing it back on topic, keeping the Knights out of tournaments would still than hamper the Eldar codex which I imagine most people want.
From at least a NOVA perspective, if we keep SH/GC out, that would certainly continue to apply to the newly GC Wraithknights.
2015/05/07 18:47:39
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Thimn wrote: Well fair enough I suppose. I have never had a problem with Knights in the game (don't own one) but if the consensus is that they need to be removed from 40k for balance reasons I can't fault it.
Bringing it back on topic, keeping the Knights out of tournaments would still than hamper the Eldar codex which I imagine most people want.
From at least a NOVA perspective, if we keep SH/GC out, that would certainly continue to apply to the newly GC Wraithknights.
That's going to upset a lot of people who already own Knights.
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
2015/05/07 18:55:10
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Thimn wrote: Well fair enough I suppose. I have never had a problem with Knights in the game (don't own one) but if the consensus is that they need to be removed from 40k for balance reasons I can't fault it.
Bringing it back on topic, keeping the Knights out of tournaments would still than hamper the Eldar codex which I imagine most people want.
From at least a NOVA perspective, if we keep SH/GC out, that would certainly continue to apply to the newly GC Wraithknights.
That's going to upset a lot of people who already own Knights.
That's going to be the case broadly anyway - I do not believe FLG is likely to change their 0-1 SH/GC LOW ruling to accommodate Knight players, nor do I see any event that has limits to begin with suddenly allowing multiple Wraithknights (despite the fact most Eldar players who were already fielding 3 wouldn't mind spending 150 points to field the same 3 at a much higher power level).
2015/05/07 19:05:27
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Thimn wrote: Well fair enough I suppose. I have never had a problem with Knights in the game (don't own one) but if the consensus is that they need to be removed from 40k for balance reasons I can't fault it.
Bringing it back on topic, keeping the Knights out of tournaments would still than hamper the Eldar codex which I imagine most people want.
From at least a NOVA perspective, if we keep SH/GC out, that would certainly continue to apply to the newly GC Wraithknights.
That's going to upset a lot of people who already own Knights.
That's going to be the case broadly anyway - I do not believe FLG is likely to change their 0-1 SH/GC LOW ruling to accommodate Knight players, nor do I see any event that has limits to begin with suddenly allowing multiple Wraithknights (despite the fact most Eldar players who were already fielding 3 wouldn't mind spending 150 points to field the same 3 at a much higher power level).
It would appear the slide down the slippery slope has begun.
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
2015/05/07 19:09:17
Subject: Re:Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
Slippery slope?? Its a line in the sand that is quite clear, the same line that existed prior to 7th, and the 6th IK "Codex". No SH or GMC in "normal" games of 40k. That was what Apocalypse was for. And its staying consistent with a previous ruling, and not choosing to change the rules just because it upsets a couple of people.
Isn't it a greater risk of a slippery slope changing your rulings to accommodate the WK and IK players and either creating a very special exception for them, or opening up the whole of GMC/SHVs?
Thimn wrote: Well fair enough I suppose. I have never had a problem with Knights in the game (don't own one) but if the consensus is that they need to be removed from 40k for balance reasons I can't fault it.
Bringing it back on topic, keeping the Knights out of tournaments would still than hamper the Eldar codex which I imagine most people want.
From at least a NOVA perspective, if we keep SH/GC out, that would certainly continue to apply to the newly GC Wraithknights.
That's going to upset a lot of people who already own Knights.
That's going to be the case broadly anyway - I do not believe FLG is likely to change their 0-1 SH/GC LOW ruling to accommodate Knight players, nor do I see any event that has limits to begin with suddenly allowing multiple Wraithknights (despite the fact most Eldar players who were already fielding 3 wouldn't mind spending 150 points to field the same 3 at a much higher power level).
It would appear the slide down the slippery slope has begun.
Which slippery slope is that? They exist everywhere for TOs, whether it's nerfing invisibility and fortune and grimoire and jetbike scatter lasers or keeping SH/GC out of the standard mainline GT or creating a variety of missions that emphasize different components of army build.
Slippery Slope is a bit of a fallacy in that it presumes the TO in question feels comfortable starting to ban more things once they keep something out. It also doesn't apply very well to NOVA, as we've generally minimized changes while actually adding more to the game this year than we've taken away in terms fo what's legal (ref: forgeworld, third detachment, etc.). Additionally, as Zagman points out, we have an established, player-approved ruling that prevents the inclusion of SH/GCLoW. To allow iKnights and WK now that their rules have been changed by GW would require us to accommodate two powerful army types (in fact, the two winningest out there, period) purely out of a bowing to the pressures of a vocal grouping. In other words, any Ork or Necron or Warhound or Revenant or Thunderhawk or whoever player who didn't like the ruling wasn't worth our time or attention, but those WK and iK players sure are!
It might be a far slippier slope to start cowing to the pressures of those who were happy fielding the most powerful units when their rules change for the worse ... rather than sticking firm to existing rulings.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/07 19:20:48
2015/05/07 22:14:22
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
OverwatchCNC wrote: That's going to upset a lot of people who already own Knights.
Why is that more important than upsetting the people who own other superheavies/GCs? Knights should never have had their special snowflake exception in the first place, and should have been banned/limited exactly the same as every other superheavy/GC.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/05/08 02:12:50
Subject: Now that the eldar dex is out, its time to discuss its effects on tournaments.
OverwatchCNC wrote: That's going to upset a lot of people who already own Knights.
Why is that more important than upsetting the people who own other superheavies/GCs? Knights should never have had their special snowflake exception in the first place, and should have been banned/limited exactly the same as every other superheavy/GC.
However, common sense prevailed and tourneys allowed them. And they didn't win GTs (If, "Yes they did!" then it'd be great to read about it) and, to the best of my finding out about any other tourneys in Calif, they aren't winning any here, not in the year or so they have been out.
*Did* anybody win a GT with Ad-Lance? An RTT?
"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.
"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013
