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It is obvious the OP is a troll looking for reactions. I am checking out of this one .

With Dozer. Thread needs to be locked. I think the original question was answered anyway.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It is obvious the OP is a troll looking for reactions. I am checking out of this one .

Agreed.

I'm pretty sure RAW is clear on this. I play Space Marines, and could care less if Eldar can summon daemon armies. (Never trusted those xenos anyways!)

It should and will be left up to the individual TOs to decide whether or not Eldar will have access to maelific.

Remember at the end of the day talk it over with your opponent, and try to be reasonable. Its still just a game.

FlingitNow, can you PM me why you believe it is "cheating" to summon daemons with Eldar?

If I remember the wording, it says that "Spiritseer generates his powers from this, that, and this."

If the rulebook says 'Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids faction, can generate powers on the Daemonology table' (BRB, Pg 28).

Then the RAW seems clear, and it doesn't really seem like cheating to me.

Not trying to troll, I play Necrons and played my friends Eldar at a tournament today. They don't need daemons to be competitive in anyway and if you're running daemons you aren't winning the game.

I'll use the Shadowseer from Codex Harlequins as an example:

Shadowseers generate their powers from the Phantasmancy, Daemonology (Sanctic) and Telepathy disciplines.

Why state that they can generate their powers from Sanctic if the rulebook already allows them to do so? If its a reminder, why did they specifically mention Sanctic and not Malefic? The only reason I can see for the rule to specifically mention one set of powers is because that is the only set of powers they were meant to have. Any other explanation would require the author to either forget or remember in mid-sentence that the rulebook automatically gives them both Sanctic and Malefic and he didn't bother to correct himself in multiple codices. I find that highly unlikely.

 Ghaz wrote:
I'll use the Shadowseer from Codex Harlequins as an example:

Shadowseers generate their powers from the Phantasmancy, Daemonology (Sanctic) and Telepathy disciplines.

Why state that they can generate their powers from Sanctic if the rulebook already allows them to do so? If its a reminder, why did they specifically mention Sanctic and not Malefic? The only reason I can see for the rule to specifically mention one set of powers is because that is the only set of powers they were meant to have. Any other explanation would require the author to either forget or remember in mid-sentence that the rulebook automatically gives them both Sanctic and Malefic and he didn't bother to correct himself in multiple codices. I find that highly unlikely.

Why not state it? They may just want to reinforce that not only is Sanctic Daemonology something that just about anyone can use, but that it's something the Eldar psykers regularly use. It may be as simple as that. Eldar psykers still have access to Malefic Daemonology per the BRB, but it's not something they'd regularly use, so it's not listed in the Codex. But then, my theory is also just a theory, as is yours.

We have RaW to fall back on and RaW gives us permission to use Malefic Daemonology (BRB), Sanctic Daemonology (BRB), Sanctic Daemonology (C:Eldar), etc, etc.

The new Eldar Codex doesn't say otherwise, so we assume that we are still able to use Malefic. Saying otherwise would involve a note that they can't use Malefic, similar to the Grey Knights.

The problem is that they only stated one of the two powers. If it was a reminder, it would list both Sanctic and Malefic.

 Ghaz wrote:
The problem is that they only stated one of the two powers. If it was a reminder, it would list both Sanctic and Malefic.

Actually, it would just say Daemonology, since Daemonology is technically a single discipline.

The original poster is right in the sense that Eldar can generate powers from Daemonology as all non-tyranid psykers are allowed to do so, but they can't summon daemons since their unit entries explicitly state they only generate sanctic powers and summoning is malefic.

 Ghaz wrote:
I'll use the Shadowseer from Codex Harlequins as an example:

Shadowseers generate their powers from the Phantasmancy, Daemonology (Sanctic) and Telepathy disciplines.

Why state that they can generate their powers from Sanctic if the rulebook already allows them to do so? If its a reminder, why did they specifically mention Sanctic and not Malefic? The only reason I can see for the rule to specifically mention one set of powers is because that is the only set of powers they were meant to have. Any other explanation would require the author to either forget or remember in mid-sentence that the rulebook automatically gives them both Sanctic and Malefic and he didn't bother to correct himself in multiple codices. I find that highly unlikely.

Except that GW do this all the time. They don't seem to consider one edition to be a self contained cycle. They keep writing codices with future or experimental rules in mind and keep changing their vision from one codex to another. In addition to that, they don't seem to feel the need to manage their existing rules/codices. So the author forgetting that there is a rule in the current edition? Not at all unlikely, or simply not caring, because they have a different rule set in mind and don't consider that gamebreaking enough to disallow malefic via an errata or faq. Which to me is the same as allowing it.

This wouldn't be nearly as bad if they just made the rules free and available per digital download, but hell will freeze over before that happens.

So GW was getting ready for the next edition a mere three months after the release of 7th edition? I find that highly unlikely, yet Codex Grey Knights was released just three months after 7th edition dropped and their codex specifically says "Daemonology (Sanctic)". While the RAW may be one thing, this is one of the few instances I believe the RAI is crystal clear and would definitely be the way I would play it and would advise others to play it as well.

This is GW we're talking about lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I trust them with just about any kind of madness.

Guys, Eldar can't summon as per RAW. Here are the two relevant rules:

"a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

&

"Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids Faction, can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

The second rule does not state that they generate powers from BOTH Malefic and Sanctic, only from Daemonology. The Eldar's unit entry states that they DO generate powers Daemonology, but specifies that this is Daemonology (Sanctic). Both rules are satisfied, but Eldar can't summon because their unit entry doesn't allow them to use the Malefic portion of Daemonology.

And GW doesn't plan that far in advance. Them forgetting their own rules and intending for them to only have access to the psychic disciplines listed in their army list entry fits GW modus operandi better than saying that they're planning for some future edition.

It goes on to say that each time they can choose to generate powers from either sanctic or malefic, so that doesn't really change anything. I don't know why they insisted on on making one discipline with two sub disciplines when they could just have referred to one or the other. It serves naught but to complicate things.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
And GW doesn't plan that far in advance. Them forgetting their own rules and intending for them to only have access to the psychic disciplines listed in their army list entry fits GW modus operandi better than saying that they're planning for some future edition.

heh, you have point.

Roknar wrote:
It goes on to say that each time they can choose to generate powers from either sanctic or malefic

Except that the Eldar codex overturns that part of the rule by explicitly stating which subset of Daemonology powers you can generate from. And since the codex trumps the BRB, you can only generate from Sanctic.

Glad to see this debacle is finally starting to wind down .

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Actually, this entire thread since my initial post has been filled with people violating tenet 4 of YMDC.

Is that an excuse for you to engage in that behavior?

No, it's not. A whole lot of headache could have been avoided if you simply made it clear it's your interpretation of RAW, and when people replied with RAI, you said "I can see why you would infer that intent, but I am not arguing intent."

Civility, man. I'm guilty of breaking it a lot, but at least I try and hold myself accountable for prior mistakes and learn from them.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Actually, this entire thread since my initial post has been filled with people violating tenet 4 of YMDC.

Is that an excuse for you to engage in that behavior?

No, it's not. A whole lot of headache could have been avoided if you simply made it clear it's your interpretation of RAW, and when people replied with RAI, you said "I can see why you would infer that intent, but I am not arguing intent."

Civility, man. I'm guilty of breaking it a lot, but at least I try and hold myself accountable for prior mistakes and learn from them.

Then maybe you should read the entire thread, because I responded to their breaking the discussion on RAW with civility and politeness, even agreeing with their interpretation of RAI, but simply saying that I think it would be unfair to make a RAI call in the middle of a tournament, rather than before it when players can be prepared for a non RAW ruling that effects army list building. For having this opinion, I have been attacked as, and I quote: "Lazy good for nothing eldar player", "a cheating eldar player", "the worst of the worst", "idiot", "eldar loser", "rude", and finally, "troll".

So, after all that direct name calling towards me, that is clearly unwarranted in a civil, adult discussion, you chose MY post to single out and say you thought I was being uncivil? I question your judgement, sir, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I think we are all saying the same thing here. I think we are all saying who cares about eldar, they can't summon daemons, QQ otherwise, end of discussion. Amiright

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I think we are all saying the same thing here. I think we are all saying who cares about eldar, they can't summon daemons, QQ otherwise, end of discussion. Amiright

Nope. We are not all saying the same thing here.

From a rules as written standpoint, the Eldar Codex doesn't say they can't use Malefic Daemonology (MD). In other words, the BRB says they can and the Codex doesn't state otherwise. Stating otherwise would involve something like "can't use MD".

All of the debate points about "why would GW write this a certain way" or "why would they only mention one and not the other" are red herrings. Unless a codex states otherwise, all psykers may generate powers from Malefic and Sanctic Daemonology. Under the current 7th Edition rules, having the Eldar Codex say that a psyker can use Sanctic Daemonology is redundant. They would be able to use SD even if it wasn't listed for the same reason they can use MD... the BRB gives permission.

Or unless gw say otherwise... Which they did since I emailed them asking if eldar could use malefic.. to which they said no.. that it states in the rulebook they can use sanctic not malefic.. still wanna argue?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Or unless gw say otherwise... Which they did since I emailed them asking if eldar could use malefic.. to which they said no.. that it states in the rulebook they can use sanctic not malefic.. still wanna argue?

GW Emails shouldn't be relied on as per Tenet #2

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Or unless gw say otherwise... Which they did since I emailed them asking if eldar could use malefic.. to which they said no.. that it states in the rulebook they can use sanctic not malefic.. still wanna argue?

You're the only one currently arguing. Your attitude earlier in the thread is evidence of this. All name calling and throwing your e-weight around.

Chill out dude, it's an internet forum for discussing the rules of a game of toy soldiers.

Well won't lie, while I see why it's in place do to trolls, it's aLao dumb due to some people "ie me" who aren't trolling :/ regardless. I would tell an eldar player to f off if he even brought daemon models in the same box as his eldar. Let alone only his eldar

Edit : e- weight? Chill out? I was never angry? I apologize that you wasted your time thinking so. I was Simply speaking on behalf of the anti eldar committee. No for reelz though.. if you really thought I was throwing around weight or angry I feel bad that sarcasm and blatant bordem escapes you

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Well won't lie, while I see why it's in place do to trolls, it's aLao dumb due to some people "ie me" who aren't trolling :/ regardless. I would tell an eldar player to f off if he even brought daemon models in the same box as his eldar. Let alone only his eldar

That sounds like some pretty aggressive emotion driving some pretty aggressive language... again over a disagreement on the rules of a game of plastic toy soldiers.

Edit : e- weight? Chill out? I was never angry? I apologize that you wasted your time thinking so. I was Simply speaking on behalf of the anti eldar committee. No for reelz though.. if you really thought I was throwing around weight or angry I feel bad that sarcasm and blatant bordem escapes you

Riiight...

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Blah... Lazy good for nothing eldar players and their continued attempts to take their extremely broken eldar codex and break it more. Know what's worse than an eldar player in general? A cheating eldar player in general. You guys are the worst of the worst. If there was one army 40k could do without.. it's eldar. Erreta the idiots.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Meh. Generalizing eldar losers is about the only fun thing to do other than not play with the.. as you see above, OP is wanting to break his codex more and will not listen to reason or truth otherwise. He wants so bad to be right he can't accept he is wrong. As all eldar players are.

Mr. Shine, I'm sorry are you obssessed with some random person on the internet who is interested in toy soldiers? Kinda a weird fetish.. but I won't judge. To each their own.

The rulebook doesnt expressly forbid me from taking 47 D cannons on my wraith knight so i think ill go do that. *rolls eyes*



-Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1 -

chadbrochill17 wrote:
The rulebook doesnt expressly forbid me from taking 47 D cannons on my wraith knight so i think ill go do that. *rolls eyes*

You have misunderstood the argument.

The issue is that that rulebook says that you can do something unless a codex specifically says you can't. Not that the rulebook doesn't forbid it.

So Eldar are given permission to use Malefic powers by the rulebook... and nothing in the codex removes that permission.


So, as stated by the rulebook, that means that they can use Malefic powers.


It's not a matter of the rulebook not saying you can't. It's a matter of the rulebook saying you can, but the codex just expecting us to assume that you can't,

 insaniak wrote:
So Eldar are given permission to use Malefic powers by the rulebook... and nothing in the codex removes that permission.

The sentence under Psyker for the unit entry that says "(Unit Name) generates powers from Daemonology (Sanctic)" coupled with the sentence " a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him," from the BRB is what removes that permission. The codex lists out what disciplines are known to the Eldar and it specifies that they can only draw powers from Sanctic. It really doesn't matter what the rulebook says about generating Malefic powers because the codex, which overrides the BRB, is explicitly telling you which subset of Daemonology powers you are generating from, therefore it excludes the subset you are not given permission to generate from.