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 Akar wrote:
There are a few reasons I will refuse a game.

I get a lot of Flak for it, but I see Forgeworld on any list and it's usually a no, at least for pick up games. If they want to practice for an upcoming event then sure. More often than not, they aren't even using the FW model with Battlescribe providing the rules. Even with the models, I'll usually play against them 1x, but after that I won't really budge.

The second reason I turn down games is using non-GW models. I don't mind 3rd party stuff mixed in, but the army should be mostly GW models. Similar to Forgeworld, I'm kind of a snob when it comes to supporting the company that makes the game. Lego armies exist, and often times other lines sneak in like Warmachine Jacks as Dreads, or Infinity units subbing for something. There was an article on BOLS about it, and it made a good argument for both sides.

The 3rd reason I refuse. They want to play event missions in standard games. I've been to a few shops that like to use the BAO/LVO or Adepticon missions. These are fine if you're planning to go to those events, but I kinda laugh when they try to convince me that they're the most balanced missions out there and that's the only reason they prefer them.

Last reason. They want to play Unbound by Proxy. I'm in favor of Unbound format and will usually play most Unbound lists. But to me the one rule that they are inflexible on is 'models that you own'. If you want to play 5 Chapter Masters on Bikes, then you'd better have 5 Chapter Masters on bikes, painted different chapters, and not some random collection of Ravenwing bikers left over from Dark Vengeance passed off as Chapter masters.

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On the flip side, I'm not hurt when someone refuses to play me because I'm a Necron player. For pick up games I'll even ask them if they want to play against a Decurion or not, since my list doesn't really change. Maybe they look at either of my lists and decide that they have nothing that can beat it, which has happened. I will usually offer to alter my list to play or remove whatever units they can't deal with. If it's not fun for them, I don't want them to play me.

Wow, I'm not even sure where to start on this one. It's so full of completely false assumptions. Let's go in order.

1. FW units are typically more balanced than the GW side of things. Point me to a list that's won a GT in the past year relying on FW. Last year LVO, won by Eldar using zero FW. BAO was space marines with a GW imperial knight. NOVA, no FW. This year LVO, 5 flyrants and some lictors against scouts and grav cents for the championship. This year's adepticon, chaos daemons, again no FW. FW models are typically something over costed that will hurt you for 1-2 turns then blow up when you focus fire on it.

2. You get a pass on this. After 1-2 games using proxies like that I tell my opponent to buy the models or play with a list he owns models for.

3. As with #1, event missions are far more balanced and take far more tactical thinking than any of the rulebook missions. Eternal war is gunline, then last turn objective rush. Maelstrom is random hammer with your central command acting like an 8 year old hopped up on sugar and possibly crack calling the shots.
"Kill the flyer!"
"Sir they don't have one!"
"Ok scratch that, blow up a building!"
"Sir...every building in sight has been reduced to ruins." "Ok then kill their psyker!"
"Sir the enemy is necrons, their entire race doesn't even have any psykers."
And so on...
Asymmetrical missions allow both players to play to the strength of their list and actual require tactical thinking beyond target priority. It blows my mind that someone would rather play eternal war or maelstrom. After introducing my group to NOVA missions, nobody wants to play anything else.

4. So you're cool with playing a ridiculous unbound cheese spam list as long as they own the models, but proxying a ravenwing bike for a chapter master bike is just way across the line? Alright, see you next week with a WK, ad lance, and 2 riptides. This is so crazy I don't even have a good metaphor in mind.

I've refused games because I didn't have the time, didn't have my army available to me or was too busy to play a game.

I will refuse games when my opponent brings Decurion Necron or 3 Knights to stomp me.

I've not had to refuse a game yet, but there are some people I absolutely refuse to play again because they are TFG or cheaters. That's about the only time I'd refuse to play a game.

I personally wont play samll games because i find them boring. But i will glady suggest proxying so someone can make an army big enough.

if we ever had a cheater... we would brate them until they realized how silly they were or never returned

I have a few on my "Will Not Play Ever Again!!!" list, but I will always play a person at least once.
I have had one person refused to play me way back in 2nd because my Space Wolves were Primer Grey, not Space Wolf Grey.
Now they are either White or Periwinkle.

I replied to this thread for the sake of contributing to the conversation and I feel that I've provided input relevant to what the OP had asked for.

 Toofast wrote:
Wow, I'm not even sure where to start on this one. It's so full of completely false assumptions. Let's go in order.

Not that I feel the need to defend myself, but sure, let's go over some of these.

1. FW units are typically more balanced than the GW side of things.

First there is the assumption that this is the only reason I refuse to play FW. I actually do support FW, but it has its place for a variety of reasons. Short list, Large independent events, or amongst friends.

As for balanced or 'Fair'. I still laugh when I hear this is nothing more than an opinion, and just as valid as mine. EVERY TIME, I hear this excuse, I hear an EQUAL number of comments saying 'Well I'd use the one in my codex, but xxx is just so much better', by the same person, and to me it simply invalidates the argument they just tried to make. Again, not opposed to it, but just be honest and admit that you prefer the FW over Codex, and respect that I won't play you because of it.

Point me to a list that's won a GT in the past year relying on FW. Last year LVO, won by Eldar using zero FW. BAO was space marines with a GW imperial knight. NOVA, no FW. This year LVO, 5 flyrants and some lictors against scouts and grav cents for the championship. This year's adepticon, chaos daemons, again no FW. FW models are typically something over costed that will hurt you for 1-2 turns then blow up when you focus fire on it.

Point me to an event that has decided to run 7th, and not just the parts they like. Not trying to sound spiteful or bitter here, but it pretty much sums up how I view the tourney scene right now. When the edition changed, several of these events have had to scramble to adjust their format, rules, FAQs, which units would need to be fixed (Mostly FW), to still run a successful event. ALL of them have done an amazing job. Well, it's a year later, and quite a few of them still aren't playing 7th.

Combining Maelstrom and Eternal War, when they are different missions, and in the case of some armies require different lists. BRB tells us to decide on one or the other before playing. Something I haven't seen in any of the Major Events. Why are Kill Points still relevant in most of the Scenarios when they haven't really been used in this edition? To me, this is the exact same thing that happened when they did away with Victory Points, several events tried to keep it around as long as possible. Mysterious Objectives STILL aren't used in most of the Scenarios (At least on the missions that I've read).

These are reasons I have avoided most of the Big Events. They are fun, but after attending the last one I went to, I walked away feeling like I was playing some combination of the last 3 editions. I'm aware that I'm in the minority, but I'm not the only one. Each of those events are responsible for creating an environment that will attract players, and following the majority makes complete sense to me. There are events that meet my standard and I hope things work out that I may attend them.

2. You get a pass on this. After 1-2 games using proxies like that I tell my opponent to buy the models or play with a list he owns models for.

For list building or experimentation pretty much. I'll even keep playing against the Proxies if I am changing up my list. I wasn't clear, but I was mainly referencing players who refuse to buy the units they are proxying, or in one case, sold the GW model that someone bought for him because he already had a scratch build. Should also note that scratch builds for models that don't exist are also fine, like DeffKoptas.

3. As with #1, event missions are far more balanced and take far more tactical thinking than any of the rulebook missions. ...
Asymmetrical missions allow both players to play to the strength of their list and actual require tactical thinking beyond target priority. It blows my mind that someone would rather play eternal war or maelstrom.

I feel I've covered this. It's fine, but as I already said, it's not 7th. A majority of players feel the same way and they really dislike the randomness of the Maelstrom Cards and the unachievable objectives. I have 4 Armies, none have Psykers, yet that card comes up all the time. When 2 Players disagree, they change the rules. I have ZERO problem with that.

Where I do have a problem, is showing up for a random game and finding people who will only play Event Scenarios. How do you resolve a situation where one player wants to play an EW/Mael mission, over one that isn't written by GW? Do you kick a fit, yell and scream, demean your opponent as to why he is wrong? Or do you simply say 'Thanks, but I'll play someone else.'

After introducing my group to NOVA missions, nobody wants to play anything else.

After trying all of the NOVA,BAO/LVO,Adepticon, etc, missions. It becomes clear that elements that are core to this edition still have not been implemented. To the people I know, the NOVA missions are amongst the worst. It's an opinion, and I'm not trying to trod on the NOVA event. I stand by why I refuse the game, those are scenarios for those events, and unless they are in relation to that event, they have no place outside of it.

4. So you're cool with playing a ridiculous unbound cheese spam list as long as they own the models, but proxying a ravenwing bike for a chapter master bike is just way across the line? Alright, see you next week with a WK, ad lance, and 2 riptides. This is so crazy I don't even have a good metaphor in mind.

. You misread me here a little. I've got no problem with proxying a Ravenwing Biker as a CM. I have an issue with using all of them as Chapter Masters to represent an Unbound list.

The issue with Unbound isn't that it exists, but that there are players who can and will abuse it. Forums are full of WAAC advice, and anytime the word 'Unbound' is mentioned, it brings out the worst trolls possible. There are several threads where players are asking about Unbound lists or going to Unbound events, and they're pretty much spammed with 'you'll need a ton of stuff you don't own' or 'how will you deal with xxx'.

After all this time, it remains the one aspect of this edition that the big events have yet to allow or incorporate. I feel it's already past the point where it's become more of a Handicap to disallow it. If it's not, it will get there soon. Several lists are hampered by Battle Forged only, especially with the changes in options like the Necron/Eldar decurions. How is 5 WKs on an 1850 any different to the List you posted? (Other than one being BF, and the other not.)

Fortifications outside of CADs are hard to get. Allowing Unbound would allow players to give up a bonus if they still wanted to run one or more. Add in the silly 2 Source restriction that most of these events have and some armies can't be competitive. I'm not saying that it will give an advantage, but allowing Harlequins and Skitarii a bit of Freedom would only benefit the tourney scene.

I don't condone abusing the Unbound Rules. While the rule exists there will always be that fear. A majority of groups I've seen are playing it more and more often, and I'm pretty sure no one wants to be the guy that won a major event with an unbalanced list. It's gotten to the point where these events need to start allowing it, so that we can learn how to incorporate it, rather than ignore it.

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I know I've probably gone off topic, but they are all reasons why I refuse a game. I have to travel for various reasons, and I might get into 2-3 nights a month where I can get a game in. 40k is so huge that I have no problem finding a game no matter where I travel, and will usually have an army on me. My time is limited, and I'm not going to waste it adding stress to something I love, and not have a good time.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have a few on my "Will Not Play Ever Again!!!" list, but I will always play a person at least once.

Ditto.

Yet another is instead of gaming one evening, set up a workshop where several of you can sit together and make some.

this.

Set it up as a once a month or bi-monthly scheduled event in place of gaming.

Devise a plan for each meeting so people can gather materials such as:

1. Make a crAter night

2. Fortification building

Etc.

Basically figure out what sort of terrain your group lacks and wants and have everyone help make it.

Even those without stellar terrain building skills can help the more skilled builders with some of the boring aspects like texturing or priming pieces, etc. especially good if you are mass producing pieces.