How to Counter the new Eldar WK (BY RACE)

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**Zagman**

Are we forgetting the forest in listed terrain that acts as area terrain of 5+... And ruins...

**Talys**

Zagman wrote:
Are we forgetting the forest in listed terrain that acts as area terrain of 5+... And ruins...

Do you mean the terrain datasheet for Citadel Wood? That is pretty specific that the Dense Thicket Special Rule (which gives 5+ cover save regardless of 25% obscured) is only for "Models on the base of a Citadel Wood model".

If you go by RAW, regular "woods" or forest don't qualify as a "Citadel Wood model", so they are covered under Terrain Types/Difficult Terrain, p. 108. "It includes areas of rubble, woods.... Unless specifically noted otherwise, a model in cover behind difficult terrain has a 5+ cover save." Models in cover behind is defined as, "at least 25% obscured by scenery".

Ruins are specifically covered on the facing column and say that they get a 4+ regardless whether they meet 25% obscured.

Practically speaking, the "toe in" with Dense Thicket doesn't work on trees anyhow, unless you happen to base your trees like the Citadel Wood (it doesn't work with free standing trees).

**Ascalam**

covens DE

Ossefactors... Lots of them

**captain bloody fists**

my thoughts for my armies:

SM: a 5 drop pod assault with 3 pods of stern with combi melta/plasma. first turn, drop a pod either side of it, combat squad and all shots. might bring a WK down if not repeat with the last pod and hope to hell...

SOB: a combination of two exorcists and a squad of penitent engines. also might work.

have yet to try either of these.

**Makumba**

So aside for FW and ally there is not much an IG can do to an eldar list,or is there a guide somewhere for it. I have been trying to find one, but no one does IG here aside of ally wyverns.

**Talys**

captain bloody fists wrote:

SM: a 5 drop pod assault with 3 pods of stern with combi melta/plasma. first turn, drop a pod either side of it, combat squad and all shots. might bring a WK down if not repeat with the last pod and hope to hell...

Yikes.. that's 205 points per drop pod sternguard squad. Times 3, you've got 615 points... To take out 1 Wraithknight?

Plus you have to pay for 2 more pods of something, so you'll end up near 900 points. If that's the measuring stick, just take two of the new knights with one of the long range weapons and be done with it

You're better off with Centurions -- they cost 80 points per model equipped grav cannon and grav amp; take 3-4, fish for Invisibility, and kill an annoying broken unit with another annoying broken unit. The invisible Centurions will cost more than the WK, but they are also pretty durable and still one of the best deathstars in the game.

**Reinokarite**

For DA:

10 Ravenwing Black Knights with Grebade launcher (rad grenade) will deal 4.5 wounds on wraith knight on everage.
That's 420 points.

Melta Company Veteran Squad of 9 with Librarian on Drop Pod with Precience will deal 4 wounds on everage. That's 352 points.

Unit of Deathwing Knights will deal 6.6 wounds on charge on smite mode with Knight Master dealing another 0.5 wounds. And 4.4 wounds without charge. That's 235 points. Add another Knight to be shure and that become 8.3 on charge and 5.5 without for 281 points. That is my best bet.

Or add Int chaplain with MoR instead and Knights will deal 8.8 wounds on charge with chaplain adding 1.5 wounds. That's 345 points. Or with Prescience librarian 300 points.

**captain bloody fists**

Talys wrote:
captain bloody fists wrote:

SM: a 5 drop pod assault with 3 pods of stern with combi melta/plasma. first turn, drop a pod either side of it, combat squad and all shots. might bring a WK down if not repeat with the last pod and hope to hell...

Yikes.. that's 205 points per drop pod sternguard squad. Times 3, you've got 615 points... To take out 1 Wraithknight? Plus you have to pay for 2 more pods of something, so you'll end up near 900 points. If that's the measuring stick, just take two of the new knights with one of the long range weapons and be done with it

You're better off with Centurions -- they cost 80 points per model equipped grav cannon and grav amp; take 3-4, fish for Invisibility, and kill an annoying broken unit with another annoying broken unit. The invisible Centurions will cost more than the WK, but they are also pretty durable and still one of the best deathstars in the game.

Meh, i play a fluffy crimson fist list in that i spend a lot of point's in my elite's because that's where the fluff point's me. Most time's having 5 pods pay off though as i said i have yet to try it against the new eldar list's mainly because I've been using the sister's more.

**Drager**

Talys wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Drager wrote:
Ruins grant a 4+ for 'toe in' terrain. Forests grant a 5+ for the same. That's if you are using the official GW rules from the BRB. If you are houseruling stuff then you can play whatever.

As I stated, I thought all cover was true LOS now; no area terrain.

Martel, Drager is partly correct. There are two types of cover, "Models In" and "Models in Cover Behind". The former just requires any part of the model **standing on** the terrain, and does NOT require 25% cover (it specifically says so). The latter requires 25% LOS cover, unless there is a special rule to exempt it.

BRB gives ruins give cover for "models in" a 4+ save regardless of 25% cover, so toe in is correct.

Difficult terrain, however, which includes forest, gives a 5+ cover save, but uses the "Models in cover behind" rules, which requires 25% LOS cover.

I'm on the TV with my wife, so I can't look up the page number, but I'm 100% of the rule for Ruins and Difficult Terrain, and I'm 99.99% sure that forest counts as Difficult Terrain, without having special rules. For instance, Rubble is difficult terrain but gives you 5+ cover whether or not you are obscured.

I understand that this really makes no sense, so we house rule it with "common sense" and take the spirit of the rules. If it's infantry, we'll give him cover in the rubble (distinct from ruins), because it makes sense, and cover in the trees too (just like the BRB suggests). If it's a Wraithknight, it makes NO SENSE to have cover in rubble. I mean, WTF, the only thing a bunch of rocks will hide are his toes, and he's more likely to just Stomp those than anything. If it's in trees, we make jokes about whether they're tall trees or short trees, and will just give the person the cover roll, since it's unlikely that he would be 4x taller than a mature tree (so this would be the opposite of BRB).

For Forests I was using the 'Twisted Copse' datasheet as that is the name of the GW forest terrain piece. Not got my book on me, so might have misread, but I'm pretty sure toe in is enough.