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 Psienesis wrote:
Mainly because there isn't really any other option. There is no poison or chemical weapon that works against the Tyranids more than once. There are no Imperial weapons that can wipe out fleets that are billions of vessels in size, with the possible exception of a Nova Cannon, but the platform required to deliver such a weapon is exceedingly rare, and the Cannon itself cannot fire fast enough to survive the counter-attack, assuming it can pull off the first shot.

Fighting them on the ground is a complete waste of time, since the Tyranids begin terraforming the planet before the first bug hits the ground, converting the atmosphere into something more bug-friendly... and if the Fleet is close enough to make planet-fall, then you've basically already lost without seriously drastic measures.

About the only feasible idea I can think of is some sort of installation on the planet, such as a Chaos Relic or perhaps a device of Necron, Eldar, or some other advanced Xenos culture (perhaps even one that is now extinct) that creates some sort of wave-effect that extends across a system, which disrupts the Shadow in the Warp, fries the Synapse Creatures, or otherwise produces some little-understood effect that causes the Hive Fleet to either flee or devour itself.

You could always just use a gamma ray burst, although there won't really be any lift left in a couple star systems after it's detonated.

The Tyranids do more than just become resistant to individual weapons or toxins. They also learn and adapt their tactics, through observation. Their enemies classically keep underestimating the Tyranid race's intelligence based on the lack of intelligence in individiual low level Tyranids. However the Hive Mind is intelligent and its learning is not dependent on actually digesting either the enemy or its own individual Tyranid creatures.

For example in the novel Warriors of Ultramar, the Imperial space fleet used a tactic of detonating a refinery packed with explosives and volatile plasma. It destroyed a Tyranid hive ship and caused disruption in the fleet. When the Imperials tried to use a second refinery, not only did the Tyranids not take the bait (the other hive ship deliberately stayed well clear of the danger zone), they turned the tables on the humans by taking the refinery and towing it back to detonate it in the middle of the Imperial fleet, taking care to protect it from Imperial fire until it was well and truly in range. Only when it was where it would do the most damage to the Imperial fleet did the expendable Tyranids turn on the refinery to detonate it. The Hivemind had learned not to attempt to consume the refinery, learned how to use it against its enemies, and had innovated to develop creatures to haul and protect the refinery. All this action took place in space, and there was no consumption to pass on direct genetic information, so the learning was all through direct observation and then modification of behavior.

The Tyranids are actually the diametric opposite to the Imperium in that the Tyranids are innovating and changing constantly, whereas the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus are as a whole against innovation. That is why the Imperium struggles so much because its classic strength of brute force numbers is useless against the even more numerous Tyranids, and because what works one time against Tyranids is unlikely to yield the same results repeatedly.

You just have to sever the connection to the hive mind then clean up the rest. Nowhere near as simple as that sounded.

Regarding ship-to-ship action, these are the two most salient points from Battlefleet Gothic (GW's late lamented space combat game):

Pyro-acidic Batteries
These Tyranid weapons work by launching compact organic shells containing virulent toxins and pyro-acids. These can cause considerable damage on impact, but it is the release of their ravening payloads into the confines of a ship that can prove the most deadly. Pyro-acidic battery fire is worked out in the same way as an ordinary ship’s weapon battery. Any ship which is hit by pyro-acid weapons has a chance that they will continue to be eaten away by the deadly bio-agents. (they also have short range Carnifex style Bio-Plasma for burning through hardened targets)

Spores
Tyranid ships do not have turrets or shields in the normal sense, and instead rely on emitting a constantly replenished physical barrier of spore clouds. Every spore is a Pandora’s box of viral compounds, acids and even nucleonic mutagens capable of eating through hull armour with alarming speed. The combined effect of the millions of spores produces an ablative armour effect as they absorb weapons fire and ordnance directed at the bio-ship they surround.

As for boading a Hive Ship, Tyranids as we know them today actually first appeared that way in Advanced Space Crusade, a (rather complicated) boardgame representing the killing of a Hive Ship by a sub-company* sized boarding force. Although Norn Queens were mentioned they weren't a target, instead the objectives were the ships Energy Cortex, Sensory Cluster** and Respiratory Vent. Destroy all three and the ship dies, along with every Tyranid on board, including any norn queens.

* Maximum sized game was 30 marines if all Terminators, 90 marines if all Scouts, or somewhere between for a mixed force.

** This particular objective had a rather cool special rule that would fit well into the narrative of an RPG boarding action: "If the Space Marines capture this objective, they can tap into the energy flows around the ship and follow Tyranid movements. Techpriests of the Adeptus Mechanicus probe the Cluster and detect concentrations of energetic activity. Although the actual thought processes of the huge alien ship are completely incomprehensible to a human, it is possible to recognise certain patterns, such as those that occur when doors are opened or fluids diverted to leave a passage clear. In this way, the Space Marines can get some idea of how the Tyranids are moving around the hive ship, even though they don't know which Tyranids are where."

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Life eater virus in a boarding torpedo into the norn-queens ship.

Not sure how they haven't realized that life eater is their best anti tyranid weapon.

jakejackjake wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Life eater virus in a boarding torpedo into the norn-queens ship.

Not sure how they haven't realized that life eater is their best anti tyranid weapon.

Viruses don't work against Tyranids, they just adapt to them. Even Nurgle's viruses are powerless against the Tyranids.


You should hire the Dark Eldar. They are super effective vs Tyranids. Just be wary of any offers of 'cultural exchange'.

jakejackjake wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Life eater virus in a boarding torpedo into the norn-queens ship.

Not sure how they haven't realized that life eater is their best anti tyranid weapon.

Because it will work once. If they fail to kill every Tyranid present, survivors may be devoured by another Fleet, which then becomes immune to the Life-Eater Virus, which then passes that immunity along to other Hive Fleets. Worse? The Tyranids metabolize the Virus and turn it into one of their own weapons.

You save a world from Tyranids the same way you save them from heretics and xenos.

Nuke them from orbit.

Salvation in death.

 Psienesis wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Life eater virus in a boarding torpedo into the norn-queens ship.

Not sure how they haven't realized that life eater is their best anti tyranid weapon.

Because it will work once. If they fail to kill every Tyranid present, survivors may be devoured by another Fleet, which then becomes immune to the Life-Eater Virus, which then passes that immunity along to other Hive Fleets. Worse? The Tyranids metabolize the Virus and turn it into one of their own weapons.

You obvioulsy destroy the ship once it loses the ability to fight back .You only have to kill the queen and then destroying the rest is easy. Only the tyranids on board the ship would be able to consume it so there isn't as much risk as you made it seem since their dead already and then you destroy the ship itself oh which is also biomatter and dead already and being desolved.

Call up O'vesa from the Farsight Enclave.

From what I've read (very little) It's been the only successful use of a (*Aghem*) "suite of self-replicating poisons."

Which O'vesa created and had three Earth Cast members ingest. After these three scientists were eaten and taken back to the fleet, the poisons spread and killed off the entire Hive Fleet attacking Vior'los.

It took only an hour for the entire fleet to be destroyed.
Now, I don't know if any of the Hive survived to make them immune again, but given that it was a "self Replicating" poison, I rather think it would work a few more times. The poisons would have some slight evolutionary effects, which may not outpace the Tyrnids own Evolution, but at least give it a bit of a run. Meaning this tactic should work at least more then once, but not indefinitely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: I forgot to mention, In that one hour the Hive managed to:

"Tyranids had even stripped most of Vior'los' atmosphere away"

So your planet will probably be very wrecked no matter what you did.

Send an ork waagh to fight the hive fleet a few planets away from the planet you want to save. The orks will be a problem afterwards though.
That's what the inquisition did at least.

Random thought: I thought I read somewhere that the Hive Mind is the gestalt consciousness of the Old Ones seeking revenge on the Necrons and C'Tan. Is this true? Because maybe leading the Nids to a Tomb world and letting them destroy each other could be an option.

Where the heck did you read that? There's actual examples in the fluff of Hive fleets bypassing Tomb Worlds...

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Send an ork waagh to fight the hive fleet a few planets away from the planet you want to save. The orks will be a problem afterwards though.
That's what the inquisition did at least.

Random thought: I thought I read somewhere that the Hive Mind is the gestalt consciousness of the Old Ones seeking revenge on the Necrons and C'Tan. Is this true? Because maybe leading the Nids to a Tomb world and letting them destroy each other could be an option.

Tyranids intentionally avoid tomb worlds. They get nothing out of killing Necrons except casualties, and unless its a tomb world hidden within an imperial planet. Even so, tyranids avoid crons like a plague.

I might just be crazy or tired or something. I could have sworn I read that somewhere though...
But I guess the point still stands: Getting the Necrons to engage the Tyranids would be a good way to stop a hive fleet

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I might just be crazy or tired or something. I could have sworn I read that somewhere though...
But I guess the point still stands: Getting the Necrons to engage the Tyranids would be a good way to stop a hive fleet

True enough, especially with the Guass flayer weapons. Necrons > everything

jakejackjake wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
They aint stupid like the Orks.... so drawing them away wont work that easily.. maybe only when luring them with Billions of humans that can be harvested for biomass... but not practical and a bad idea for obvious reasons...

Maybe some of those missles Horus used on Istvann.. Life eater virus it was called? A virus that multiplies rapidly at an insane rate, capable of annihalating planets in minutes.. Or the good old bombartment rivaling exterminatus... but the planet you 'Saved' wont be of much worth anymore

But seriously,... ask the Ultra Marines... Or the Eldar. They know best

Life eater virus in a boarding torpedo into the norn-queens ship.

Not sure how they haven't realized that life eater is their best anti tyranid weapon.

Because it will work once. If they fail to kill every Tyranid present, survivors may be devoured by another Fleet, which then becomes immune to the Life-Eater Virus, which then passes that immunity along to other Hive Fleets. Worse? The Tyranids metabolize the Virus and turn it into one of their own weapons.

You obvioulsy destroy the ship once it loses the ability to fight back .You only have to kill the queen and then destroying the rest is easy. Only the tyranids on board the ship would be able to consume it so there isn't as much risk as you made it seem since their dead already and then you destroy the ship itself oh which is also biomatter and dead already and being desolved.

Quite certain by it's nature that the life eater virus requires an atmosphere to work within. It makes a hole in the hull, it releases and is sucked straight into a vacuum without doing anything.

If that wasn't the case, torpedo's with the life eater virus, or even shells infused with it would be the single most useful and effective anti-ship weaponry in the imperial fleet, bar attacking necrons, daemons (not flesh right?) and anything that is so cybernetic in nature it wouldn't be worth the cost, and they would still be mostly effective even if it landed anyway. Land one torpedo and that ship is done for.

Obviously it's a suicide mission with a squad of people. You don't just shoot the life eater virus in to the void and cross your fingers. If 40k was logical they would do absolutely nothing the way they do so the fact they dont make use of one of their most devastating weapons is so surprising?

According to fluff simply drive a battle barge into the middle of the hive fleet and blow it up. Imperial Navy Battleship would work just as well.

You obvioulsy destroy the ship once it loses the ability to fight back .You only have to kill the queen and then destroying the rest is easy. Only the tyranids on board the ship would be able to consume it so there isn't as much risk as you made it seem since their dead already and then you destroy the ship itself oh which is also biomatter and dead already and being desolved.

And half a light year that way, in one other section of the Hive Fleet, another ship poops out a Norn Queen and the Hive Fleet rolls on.

There is also the fact that the LEV requires something like wind to move it around a planet. It is, after all, a virus... and, as we learned in the Second Armageddon War, it has a shelf-life, and is not commonly seen in the galaxy anymore (being a GC/Heresy-era weapon).

So you throw it into a Hive Ship, which starts to rapidly dissolve... hoping that you found the ship with a Norn Queen in it, and not just some other huge Tyranid vessel, and then the ship farts out a huge cloud of Life-Eater Virus into space, because Tyranid vessels are living creatures, with plenty of organisms that act like an immune system (in addition to its actual, robust immune system).

As is described earlier in the thread, the ship is also capable of flooding compartments with fluids. Much like humans do, this can be used as a way of purging the body of viri and bacteria... meanwhile allowing the Tyranids to sample the LEV.

Would it work? Maybe... once. Once the ship dissolves (and here we will assume it does work), all you're left with is a cloud of flammable gas in space, and whatever amount of the virus was left, spreading through the void of space from the outwardly-escaping gases from the dying Hive Ship.

Now you have dilute LEV in space, ripe for the sampling.

This has never ever occured to me, until just. It may be explained in the fluff, but if it has, I haven't read it.

The hive ships with the Nord queen, they are the centre of mass of the fleet effectively, take that out and the whole thing falls apart.

Usually, they are well guarded, and difficult to get a decent line of sight on, let alone actually approach it with proximity.

So, how the hell do they get biomass? Do one of the ships who do the eating, in turn get eaten by the hive ship? Otherwise they are attaining biomass from the planet directly, in which case that is the perfect moment to strike them, which sort of makes me think that isn't the case. As explained previously, the LEV most probably wouldn't work for various reasons, but, if it were to work and the hive ships do extract it's own biomass from a planet, that is the perfect vehicle for the weapon, and well, any form of ship boarding action.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously I am sacrificing the planet by using the LEV against a hive ship that would be feeding directly from the planet, but to be honest, once numerous ships are already extracting a planets biomass, it's only a matter of time until that planet is lost anyway, I'd argue at that point it would be inevitable in fact.

LEV would be an effective way to prevent the taking of a world, but it is a Pyrrhic victory, indeed, as the planet is left a lifeless rock.

But, as far as feeding the ships go, that's basically how it works. The ground forces dissolve themselves in digestion pools which are then fed to the ships in orbit via capillary towers, which are likewise consumed, being sucked up into the last ships to feed, before the Fleet moves on.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
This has never ever occured to me, until just. It may be explained in the fluff, but if it has, I haven't read it.

The hive ships with the Nord queen, they are the centre of mass of the fleet effectively, take that out and the whole thing falls apart.

There isn't yust one ships there are norn queens trueout the whole fleet, and more will be created in nearby ships whenn you do kill one.

Two interesting possibilities!

1) The world is actually a Necron Tomb World. Tyranids cannot consume the Necrons, the Necrons have the firepower to kill all the Tyranids. Plot develops into Imperials having to escape out from in between the two titanic forces.

2) Radical Inquisitor appears on scene, with plan to defeat tyranids which uses something heretical- xeno-tech or warp sorcery, etc. etc. The plot develops into an interesting tensions over whether the Deathwatch characters acquiesce in the heretical plan and save the world, or refuse the Inquisitor and forsake the doomed world.

Alternatively:

3) Combine the two! World turns out to be a Tomb World. Radical Inquisitor works out how to use Necron tech to defeat Tyranids. Deathwatch must choose between heresy/victory versus purity/defeat, whilst escaping from the backdrop of the warring Necron Vs Tyranids!

 Psienesis wrote:

You obvioulsy destroy the ship once it loses the ability to fight back .You only have to kill the queen and then destroying the rest is easy. Only the tyranids on board the ship would be able to consume it so there isn't as much risk as you made it seem since their dead already and then you destroy the ship itself oh which is also biomatter and dead already and being desolved.

And half a light year that way, in one other section of the Hive Fleet, another ship poops out a Norn Queen and the Hive Fleet rolls on.

There is also the fact that the LEV requires something like wind to move it around a planet. It is, after all, a virus... and, as we learned in the Second Armageddon War, it has a shelf-life, and is not commonly seen in the galaxy anymore (being a GC/Heresy-era weapon).

So you throw it into a Hive Ship, which starts to rapidly dissolve... hoping that you found the ship with a Norn Queen in it, and not just some other huge Tyranid vessel, and then the ship farts out a huge cloud of Life-Eater Virus into space, because Tyranid vessels are living creatures, with plenty of organisms that act like an immune system (in addition to its actual, robust immune system).

As is described earlier in the thread, the ship is also capable of flooding compartments with fluids. Much like humans do, this can be used as a way of purging the body of viri and bacteria... meanwhile allowing the Tyranids to sample the LEV.

Would it work? Maybe... once. Once the ship dissolves (and here we will assume it does work), all you're left with is a cloud of flammable gas in space, and whatever amount of the virus was left, spreading through the void of space from the outwardly-escaping gases from the dying Hive Ship.

Now you have dilute LEV in space, ripe for the sampling.

You're thinking of all of the problems a kill team would have to solve but absolutely not proving it impossible. Also you don't have it in space for the sampling and the reason why has already been explained by someone else in this thread

Any large ship in a Hive Fleet is/may be capable of birthing Tyranid bio-forms, to include a Norn Queen(s). Unless you release the space-delivered LEV torpedo on the right ship, all you've done is expose a degree of the Fleet to the LEV, which will not kill every Tyranid present... and if that is the situation you find yourself in, then it is probably, if not inevitable, that one or more Tyranid bio-forms will be exposed to the virus but not killed by it... and in that scenario, you've just rendered this Hive Fleet immune to the LEV, eventually, and if this DW killteam does not then take other steps to wipe out the Tyranids, then both this world, and this Killteam, are dead.

And, again, worse still, this Hive Fleet has assimilated the genetic signature of the Life Eater Virus, and will eventually share that with other Hive Fleets, thus rendering Tyranid Bio-forms immune to it. It may still be used to render planets lifeless, but will not be as effective against Tyranids as it currently is, so is not an ideal weapon in the scenario presented.

Why are we discussing that. Finding the right ship would obviously be essential. Duh. Moving on.

All of your points are not points. You're just bringing up what would be involved in the mission. All those things are obvious issues. You don't just shoot the virus at any ol' ship and then leave the sector.

@Sir Samuel - I'm pretty sure out of the original 6 Blackstone Forresses - Abaddon has 2, Imperium has 3 and 1 is destroyed

 Azaghâl wrote:
@Sir Samuel - I'm pretty sure out of the original 6 Blackstone Forresses - Abaddon has 2, Imperium has 3 and 1 is destroyed

Incorrect. The Imperium has 0, as all the remaining ones self-destructed at the end of the Gothic War, as described in the BFG rulebook. Of the 2 that Abaddon escaped with, one was rumored to be destroyed by Necrons during the 13th Black Crusade (i.e. not confirmed) while the other one bombarded Cadia then left after Eldrad was sucked into its depths and killed.

Curse you Lexicanum!! *shakes fist*

In any case, an activated Blackstone Fortress alone if you go by its rules in BFG would not do that well against Tyranids. The reason is because its shots were individually powerful and had the bonus of ignoring shields, however this is not good against a more numerous fleet like the Tyranids as it cannot deal out damage fast enough. Also the Fortress lacked any point defense so would be vulnerable to any small craft like torpedoes or bombers or assault craft equivalents.