Making GW change

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**Vermis**

or just stop buying..." Its been said many, many, times. It doesn't work. It will never work.

Financial reports beg to differ.

**Thirdeye**

Vermis wrote:
or just stop buying..." Its been said many, many, times. It doesn't work. It will never work.

Financial reports beg to differ.

They still haven't changed their ways, just up their prices and cut staff. And the rules still suck.

**Chute82**

Thirdeye wrote:
Vermis wrote:
or just stop buying..." Its been said many, many, times. It doesn't work. It will never work.

Financial reports beg to differ.

They still haven't changed their ways, just up their prices and cut staff. And the rules still suck.

No they have not changed their ways.. And until they go belly up there not going to change

**Accolade**

Which I guess means it's working? Just not the way that a lot of people would hope. But the way we all hope simply won't happen, so it looks like it's going to have to be the hard way.

**Buttery Commissar**

I'm asking this from a position of curiosity, why does GW need to change?
With something as freeflow as tabletop gaming, model making etc. then once you own the figures, surely you can do as you wish with them?
In my eyes, it doesn't somehow become less of a game if you fiddle with it, tinkering with things as long as you mutually agree with your fellow players.

Maybe I'm just soft.

**Talizvar**

"Make GW change."
You couldn't, not in a way you would want.
Say we all go on strike and do not buy a single product for 3 months in protest.
I can guarantee GW will completely misinterpret what caused the downturn of sales no matter how much the protest is advertised.

When there is no room for handing out dividends, that is the only time we will see change (Kirby golden parachute).

**Vertrucio**

I think the Dakka admins have spoken with their own actions, same for myself.

We're just making their own game that we want to play.

Dakka's ME is going to give GW a run for their money, and despite its growing pains, you've got an experienced group churning out original plastics (unlike Mantic's mediocre GW clones).

GW knows that there's a turn in the market. However, they also know they have a captive market audience that won't stop buying no matter how ridiculous of expensive it gets. Again, still talking about the gaming side of purchasers, but GW has doubled down in releasing just for that group of super purchasers.

They also know that they can milk these people for all their hobby money, then when thing truly get bad, they just reboot like End Times and fans will come flocking back.

**BeAfraid**

MalusCalibur wrote:
You can't make GW change. Despite their continual slide towards irrelevancy in the industry, they continue to pursue the same strategies, continue to put out an accelerated rate of low effort, high price products in an attempt to stop the decline in their profits, continue to treat their customer base with practically open contempt.

The only thing you can do is stop buying, and let them get on with their self-destruction. Therme are so many other games out there that are better value and quality, after all.

From the comments on the LotR threads, you would think GW was wholly vital to their existence.

I have not bought anything from GW, directly, since the 90's. And I have not bought anything even second hand since around 2007/08 (when I bought the very last of my LotR and Tau stuff. - although it has sat it a box since the purchase.

And none of those models are likely to ever get used with a GW game, given my low opinion of their current products.

And it seems that others voice this low opinion often enough, yet fail to act upon it.

Very strange.

MB

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vermis wrote:
I don't think anyone's suggested this yet, but I'd recommend you stop buying GW products.

Venerate1 wrote:
Nay! There is no such thing as free will! You are only in this hobby because GW holds a boltgun to your head and FORCES you to spend money!

You type this out as hyperbolic sarcasm, but I've seen lots of people reveal that they're psychologically trapped in GW games, to some degree or another. Reasons and excuses I've read include:

- I've spent too much money on GW products to stop now. (Classic sunk cost fallacy, and I used to see it with distressing regularity)
- I buy GW models/rules or play GW games because I like the fluff. (No actual mention of enjoying the minis, rules, or games. A BL novel might give them as much or more enjoyment)
- If I started a new game I'd have to spend tons of money on it. (For one thing, they're already spending tons of money, more than they'd need for most new games, on filling out already-huge armies with no end in sight. For another, as I keep harping on, there are plenty of alternate, cheap or free rulesets that you can use your existing 40K/WHFB collection with. I'm sure the GW police won't break your door down and arrest you if you try it.)
- I don't like that other game's minis and fluff. (Well, as above. The Mantic police aren't going to break your door down etc. etc. if you decide to use your WHFB models and Old World [or bubble universe] background with Kings of War, or whatever. Some of those other alternate rulesets don't even have any models or fluff.)
- I don't like that other game's rules. (More subjective, but I think this is still a particular example of wargaming Stockholm syndrome or something. 40K and WHFB rules are widely known, but are actually weird outliers compared to most rules dealing with similar sized or organised armies. Of course other rules are going to seem weird and uncomfortable if you've started with and been fully immersed in the GW HobbyTM for at least two or three editions; but most are built to be more appropriate and elegant to the size of their forces, and designed to have a bit more of a tactical, tabletop-decision aspect than overwhelming strategic, micromanaged listbuilding. People think the micromanagement and special rules spam is 'fluffy', but most of the fluff in GW rules is the little title and caption written beside the bit that tells you how many dice to roll and how many wounds your result causes. Much of the rest is a wargaming quagmire. Or: other rules are like brown bread - it'll take a little time to get used to, but in the long run it's better, and before long the old stuff will start to feel like an 'orrible, sticky, claggy mess... )

What else? People complain that their opponents are too stuck on GW games, but sometimes they mention that those opponents are tired of GW too. I wonder just how much of it is down to a lack of will or courage to take a punt, divert some of the roaring flow of cash going to GW's coffers into a little rulebook or download, try to put together a couple of little demo gangs (even, as mentioned, with existing collections or proxies) or summat. Similarly, people complain that a GW store is the only place to game, which can be a restrictive head-scratcher of a problem, but again I wonder if there's some kind of inertia, a comfortable rut, and an assumption that you need a FLGS to play anything else in. I found out about a nearby wargaming club, miles closer than the nearest GW, but years after I started attending that GW, because I never bothered to look and ask. I've also played on a few kitchen tables many times. It's not going to be possible for everyone, but I don't think it's as generally impossible as often made out.

And I have my head metaphically blown-off for suggesting that someone else might be able to do LotR better than does GW.

Sounds exactly like what you have described.

MB

**Fenrir Kitsune**

BeAfraid wrote:

And I have my head metaphically blown-off for suggesting that someone else might be able to do LotR better than does GW.

Sounds exactly like what you have described.

MB

Masterful understatement there.

**PhantomViper**

Thirdeye wrote:
Vermis wrote:
or just stop buying..." Its been said many, many, times. It doesn't work. It will never work.

Financial reports beg to differ.

They still haven't changed their ways, just up their prices and cut staff. And the rules still suck.

I disagree, they have radically changed their ways, just not in the way that most people wanted them to.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

PhantomViper wrote:
Thirdeye wrote:
Vermis wrote:
or just stop buying..." Its been said many, many, times. It doesn't work. It will never work.

Financial reports beg to differ.

They still haven't changed their ways, just up their prices and cut staff. And the rules still suck.

I disagree, they have radically changed their ways, just not in the way that most people wanted them to.

I agree. GW are doing lots of different things and have changed quite a lot. They just haven't dropped the prices and pandered to the masses of "fans" who all give out different messages.

**Vermis**

Buttery Commissar wrote:I'm asking this from a position of curiosity, why does GW need to change?
With something as freeflow as tabletop gaming, model making etc. then once you own the figures, surely you can do as you wish with them?
In my eyes, it doesn't somehow become less of a game if you fiddle with it, tinkering with things as long as you mutually agree with your fellow players.

Maybe I'm just soft.

True, true. But if you need to buy a lot of minis and rules for a game, it would be nice if the makers got on board right at the start and made a game with sane rules and affordable or better-value minis.

Since the Warhammer Total War announcement happened, I've seen people say things like 'Total War games are completely unplayable, but are great if you can get the fan mods for them'. I'm like, what? If Sega or whoever is in any way aware of these mods, why don't they just start making Total War games like these mods? If I buy the game, am I buying a pre-broken game that I then have to go find and download a fix for immediately? Who are these 'fans' anyway? What exactly do they want me to put on my computer?

It's a bit of a turn off right away. It's the way I see GW now, and I'd hazard others do too, with some caveats. Sure, based on the recommendations of people I (sort of) know, I can download the mods and have a whale of a time. Me myself, I'm constantly preaching about using your purpose-built Warhammer minis in other rule sets, to see how much more fun you might have. But it would be kinda nice if the company producing the starting, 'parent' product didn't screw it up so much right out of the gate, practically demanding a look elsewhere and a lot of tinkering.

Vertrucio wrote:
Dakka's ME is going to give GW a run for their money, and despite its growing pains, you've got an experienced group churning out original plastics (unlike Mantic's mediocre GW clones).

What, you mean the not-Catachans with even stumpier arms? Those original non-mediocre non-GW-clone plastics?

Fair play to the Dakka admin for adding to the choice in the market, but when you talk about 'giving GW a run for it's money' I think of Mongoose and it's original boasts of 'killing the GW cobra' with it's own limited ranges of clunky plastics.

Accolade wrote:Which I guess means it's working? Just not the way that a lot of people would hope. But the way we all hope simply won't happen, so it looks like it's going to have to be the hard way.

Aye, that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

I agree. GW are doing lots of different things and have changed quite a lot. They just haven't dropped the prices and pandered to the masses of "fans" who all give out different messages.

I'm going to go ahead and assume your abilities to properly assess the market and it's desires are about on par with GW.

I don't know just what the market wants and what would get it to buy more GW products. Hey! That puts me on par with GW too! But I'm going to guess that if sales are dropping, the market wants something different to what's currently going on.

If the excellent article that Crablezworth posted up is any indication, it wouldn't be unsurmountably difficult to sift through those 'different messages', identify common threads, identify what's not working (most of the stuff that the current, remaining, decline-driving fanboys go mad for, perhaps?), and even address a number of them at once.

GW just needs to try.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Vermis wrote:
*snip*

I think you're being a little bit unnecessarily harsh. To address your points...

- I've spent too much money on GW products to stop now. (Classic sunk cost fallacy, and I used to see it with distressing regularity)

It's not really a fallacy in many cases. If you have hundreds of dollars in an army, the cost to keep playing can be pretty negligible. When you consider the time as well, and you might actually LIKE the models. I've stopped playing 40k and WHFB because I don't like the games any more and don't have the time (FWIW I don't really play other wargames much either), but the cost to put one of my existing armies back on the table or even to flesh out one of my half finished armies wouldn't put a noticeable dent in my bank account (it's my car hobby that leaves giant gaping holes

).

- I buy GW models/rules or play GW games because I like the fluff. (No actual mention of enjoying the minis, rules, or games. A BL novel might give them as much or more enjoyment)

Some people don't get their kicks out of books. Liking the fluff might be enough to genuinely want to buy the minis, and just because they don't say it what's to say they don't like the minis?

If someone can lose themselves in a world they like by buying/painting/playing with models better than they can by reading a book, I'm not really sure how that counts as bad thing.

I'm sure there's a lot of people who aren't in love with WARGAMING in general, they are in love with the specific setting of 40k. The wargaming is just a way to immerse themselves in the 40k setting more. Nothing wrong with that.

- I don't like that other game's minis and fluff. (Well, as above. The Mantic police aren't going to break your door down etc. etc. if you decide to use your WHFB models and Old World [or bubble universe] background with Kings of War, or whatever. Some of those other alternate rulesets don't even have any models or fluff.)

You're ignoring the practical barrier and pretending it's a psychological barrier. A big problem there isn't that people are psychologically trapped in to playing 40k/WHFB rules with 40k/WHFB models, it's that practically speaking it can be a pain in the arse.

If a gaming group has 40k/WHFB models, chances are all the members of the group knows 40k/WHFB rules. I've had no end of trouble trying to get locals to even learn new rules let alone actually adopt them. When people finally did start moving away from 40k and Fantasy it was toward MtG and Warmahordes, 2 games I have precisely zero interest in playing

That's assuming the ruleset you're trying to convince them to play even covers the wide gamut of 40k models, which as far as I'm aware, none of them do.

TL;DR....At the end of the day I don't think we should read too much in to the psychology of other gamers, at best it's a bit disrespectful to start pigeon holing people. Even though we call it "plastic crack", it's not some sort of chemical addiction that's costing people their homes and livelihoods. When people cease enjoying it to a level that justifies their time and money investment... they'll stop doing it. If they're still buying models, it's probably because they still enjoy it enough to do that

The hope is that as people start moving away from GW products, GW realises the error of their ways and tries to adapt instead of just doubling down with the same old practices of sapping the most amount of money out of the least amount of customers and destroying the game and community in the process. It's all in GW's court, no point attacking the gamers themselves.

**agnosto**

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

I agree. GW are doing lots of different things and have changed quite a lot. They just haven't dropped the prices and pandered to the masses of "fans" who all give out different messages.

Well, what do you expect from a company whose Chairman proudly proclaims that the company does no market research and in his last preamble stated, again with great pride, that he doesn't even bother to read the resumes of the people he hires in the company, on the board of directors. He then went on to brag about how much money GW spent, "an indecent amount", on the Chapterhouse lawsuit; I should say, lost here instead of spent because there was never any outcome of that lawsuit that would have netted GW as much money as they spent in legal costs against a garage business with pro-bono representation. GW didn't get what they wanted there so of course the entire American legal system was at fault, "a legal system designed to prevent people stealing hogs from one another"

Let that sit for a minute and then answer this question; "How long can a multinational company headed by such a deranged loon survive?"

From a financial standpoint, examining their records, GW has been leaking money like a sieve for a decade now and has only been able to pay dividends and keep a positive balance on the budget sheet by cutting costs. They are now to the point where their flagship retail stores are one-man operations; you can't cut any more costs without cutting into the bone, the fat is gone and some of the meat was thrown out with it. Sales continue to decline at a staggering rate (at rough estimate of 6-10% per annum) far exceeding the poor excuse of currency fluctuation that was used in the last report. I could go one, and others have. GW is in dire financial straights, headed by an aged, sorely out of touch individual that cares only about himself; he saw to his wife getting hired as a temporary contractor to oversee the development of the new website (that cost 4million pounds by the way). A person with zero credentials in this area, her prior experience being the secretary of a fictitious company headed by Kirby as a tax write-off, a company that never did any real business.

GW deserves to fail and for no other reason than Tom Kirby.

But yeah, blame it on the fans, they're the ones who are sending mixed messages and have been asleep at the wheel. Totally.

**Azreal13**

Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm asking this from a position of curiosity, why does GW need to change?
With something as freeflow as tabletop gaming, model making etc. then once you own the figures, surely you can do as you wish with them?
In my eyes, it doesn't somehow become less of a game if you fiddle with it, tinkering with things as long as you mutually agree with your fellow players.

Maybe I'm just soft.

I'll address this seeing as it seems to have slipped by unnoticed.

The issue here is you're viewing the game from the same viewpoint as GW seem to, ie. 40K is a game played in dining rooms and bedrooms amongst groups of friends who have known each other for years and whose makeup is the same from week to week.

In this context, you're quite right, any amount of fiddling and tinkering can occur in order to ensure everyone has a fun time.

There is, however, a decent sized and apparently increasingly dissatisfied percentage of players who do not play this way. These players either play in stores against people they may not know well, or people, like myself, who attend private clubs whose attendees range from long standing friends to people I just about tolerate.

It is this context, alongside those playing in tourneys as well I expect, that exposes the issues with 40K, and it is potentially much harder to work around them.

When this topic is discussed, the apologist element often create a mythical "other player." This is the guy waiting in the wings without an opponent, just waiting to step in and play you in exactly the right way, with all the checks and balances you feel are needed to enjoy the game, when your negotiations to try and make a fair game between your Orks and Eldar Jetbike spam break down. The reality is, it is frequently a choice between playing a game RAW or not playing at all, there is no ready supply of alternative opponents, and no guarantee they will share your view on how the game should be played.

I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I'd have far less of an issue with all the other issues people have with GW (prices, accelerated releases, LE and direct releases, aggressive litigation etc etc) if I was excited by the game. As it stands, the new Eldar codex (well, more what it represents in terms of GW's attitude to their stewardship of the game) has, I think, killed my last shred of interest in playing for now. I'll still be interested in the comings and goings of the various updates etc, but as of right now, the process of crating up the models, loading them in the car (along with my iPad and all the various books) travelling to my club the one day a week I can play, setting it all up and then doing the whole thing in reverse for a game I don't find rewarding to play anymore just doesn't seem worth it. Especially when I can just pick up a couple of boxes with all my X Wing in and get a couple of full sized games in of an evening which I can be fairly certain of finding much more engaging than one game of 40K.

This is what GW needs to change urgently. You can find any number of companies that have done horrendous things but still continued to trade and make robust profits, the key is that if you're turning people off to your product, bad behaviour will hasten your decline, if people love what you do, they simply won't care.

**Wayniac**

Herzlos wrote:
Orlanth wrote:

Here is the rub, Privateer Press and Corvus Belli charge GW prices for miniatures, and Privateer Press are more hardline about third party miniatures than GW ever was. Though not Corvus Belli are not. Despite this there is no notable nerdrage over prices of
Most Hawk Wargmes models make GW look value for money by comparison. Dropzone Commander is very expensive on a per miniature basis, yet Hawk Wargames can do no wrong.
Yes GW has to cut prices long term, especailly for 40K but others have got away with high prices for smaller scale gaming.

You're conflating cost and value here. Sure some games have mini's that cost as much as GW mini's, but you rarely need anything like as much of them. That $40 Warmachine unit might have the same number of mini's as that $40 40K unit, but the Warmachine one might be 20% of a complete army whilst the 40K is only 5% and needs a $40 transport on top.

If you look at total cost to play, most of these other games come out ahead, especially when you consider the rules. I don't think anyone else does a BRB for anything close to GW's $75, in fact most other rulesets (based on a straw poll of my book case) cost less than a GW army book.

There is also the underdog and economies of scale to factor in. I'll happily pay more for mini's made in small numbers by a garage company, than a mass produced mini from an international company with it's own casting machines, because I know it costs the former an order of magnitude more to make it than the latter.

This is pretty spot on. I have no trouble buying a $50 unit box for Warmachine because it's like 20% or more of an army and I likely won't need to buy a second one (some exceptions exist to this). A 40k box costs roughly the same but the unit is a small part of the army, often requires a transport at another $40 and sometimes requires additional boxes just to kit out the unit with the options you want (e.g. if you want a Tactical Squad with a lascannon, you need to buy a Devastator box too), and that's not even getting into the things like Dire Avengers that are 5 in a box for the same price as 10 other guys, and on top of that you might want 10 anyways so you have to pay double for a single unit.

That's the problem. It's not the cost of the individual figures or even the box itself, it's what the contents of the box means in the game, and 40k's are worth less value in game so you need to buy more of them thus spending more overall.

**SirDonlad**

My personal angle on this whole issue is that the core ruleset and codecies have lost any sense of balance brought on by a managment type decision to increase turnover; but they seem to be rocking this idea that they can bring balance by changing one codex at a time.

What i think is needed is a complete re-start of the entire main rulebook complete with all codecies, properly playtested and released at the same time.

I'm pretty sure that will not happen because releasing one book at a time maximises turnover, so not doing so will be seen as a loss.
Also that project would be a mammoth undertaking for GW - i don't want to think about the amount of hours you'd have to spend playtesting to see how every variation of every codex played against each other!
GW will make decisions to optimise profits, so some form of influence must happen at a beuracratic level to initiate a project like this and currently, player satisfaction does not feature highly in their business plan.

Bah, humbug, things were better in 1994, etc, etc...

**Fenrir Kitsune**

Vermis wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

I agree. GW are doing lots of different things and have changed quite a lot. They just haven't dropped the prices and pandered to the masses of "fans" who all give out different messages.

I'm going to go ahead and assume your abilities to properly assess the market and it's desires are about on par with GW.

Assume away, but you'd be wrong. I couldn't give a toss about GW one way or the other! Its fans even less.

**Wolfstan**

Smacks wrote:
I think GW are changing slowly. They've obviously stepped up production, they've released stuff that they probably should have released 20 years ago, such as titans, Ad mech, and Harlequins. It seems like plastic sisters could be just around the corner (at last). Who knows, at this rate they might even bring back squats!. Prices are still steep, but I was shocked to see the new Skitarii launch at only £23.50 for ten. I expected them to be priced more like Scions. My first thought was: "wow, I could actually buy those and only feel slightly ripped off" (as opposed to the usual mugged and raped level of shame that I'm accustomed to when dealing with GW). Of course I didn't actually buy any (I'm not an idiot). We also have the new Execution Force game coming out, which almost looks like one of the old introductory board games that were IMHO instrumental in getting new players involved in 40k during the 90s.

Of course many people will still consider all this too little too late, and the state of the rules is still obscene. But I like to think that they are slowly feeling the pain of dipping sales and starting to respond.

The problem is, as I see it, is that ok they may start bringing out more stuff, but the reason to buy it is missing. When I last played, which must be over 8 years ago now, the rules were still ok and codexes weren't £30!!

As a gamer collecting the models and building an army was enjoyable and there was a reason for it. You'd max out your Marine force and then get the urge to try something else or you'd read the fluff and it would inspire you to make a themed force based on that book. All GW want you to do now is just by their models, with no real gameplay reward to go with it.

Players would take part in a tourney and be inspired to start another force, or make or field 4 units of Tallarn Rough Riders. That has all gone out of the hobby now.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

agnosto wrote:

But yeah, blame it on the fans, they're the ones who are sending mixed messages and have been asleep at the wheel. Totally.

What, blame the fans who lap up any old bilge the company sell them, whilst complaining all the time about it? Kirby just flogged what he knew the suckers would buy "because they love the background". I don't blame him for extracting money from the daft whilst he can.

**agnosto**

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
agnosto wrote:

But yeah, blame it on the fans, they're the ones who are sending mixed messages and have been asleep at the wheel. Totally.

What, blame the fans who lap up any old bilge the company sell them, whilst complaining all the time about it? Kirby just flogged what he knew the suckers would buy "because they love the background". I don't blame him for extracting money from the daft whilst he can.

It doesn't make much sense does it? I also enjoy the GW hate posts by people who run to N&R and post about how they're going to pre-order the new shiny; cracks me up. That said, there are a fair amount of people who have walked away from GW and still check in, me being one; it's like a train wreck, you know you shouldn't look but you just can't help it.

**Thirdeye**

SirDonlad wrote:
My personal angle on this whole issue is that the core ruleset and codecies have lost any sense of balance brought on by a managment type decision to increase turnover; but they seem to be rocking this idea that they can bring balance by changing one codex at a time.

What i think is needed is a complete re-start of the entire main rulebook complete with all codecies, properly playtested and released at the same time.

I'm pretty sure that will not happen because releasing one book at a time maximises turnover, so not doing so will be seen as a loss.
Also that project would be a mammoth undertaking for GW - i don't want to think about the amount of hours you'd have to spend playtesting to see how every variation of every codex played against each other!
GW will make decisions to optimise profits, so some form of influence must happen at a beuracratic level to initiate a project like this and currently, player satisfaction does not feature highly in their business plan.

Bah, humbug, things were better in 1994, etc, etc...

I agree. The rules need a complete re-start of the entire main rulebook complete with all codecies properly playtested. I also agree that GW isn't going to do it. So why don't we do it?

Let's try to stay focused. This thread is about getting us fans to pull together to buy stock to force a change in direction. Its a hell of a lot cheaper and more to the point to simply pull together to make a better game. Who's with me?

**PhantomViper**

Thirdeye wrote:

I agree. The rules need a complete re-start of the entire main rulebook complete with all codecies properly playtested. I also agree that GW isn't going to do it. So why don't we do it?

Let's try to stay focused. This thread is about getting us fans to pull together to buy stock to force a change in direction. Its a hell of a lot cheaper and more to the point to simply pull together to make a better game. Who's with me?

At that point, why don't you just play a different and better game altogether? There are several in the market, a few of them even allow you to use your GW miniatures.

**Freakazoitt**

Instead of buying new books we can just use old ones. 5 edition is looks stable to me. And maybe 4 edition.
If there is something missing, we can use home rules.
Instead of new boxes with 10 figures for 999 dollars - old used miniatures from ebay.
Instead of almost apocalyptic battles with 100500 tanks and flyers we can use Killteam or Necromunda. Or Necromunda-based skirmish with all races.
We should do something! People says "GW is dead" but they still spend a lot of money for buying dead things. Many of them even can't play normally, because can't collect full army

**TheAuldGrump**

PhantomViper wrote:
Thirdeye wrote:

I agree. The rules need a complete re-start of the entire main rulebook complete with all codecies properly playtested. I also agree that GW isn't going to do it. So why don't we do it?

Let's try to stay focused. This thread is about getting us fans to pull together to buy stock to force a change in direction. Its a hell of a lot cheaper and more to the point to simply pull together to make a better game. Who's with me?

At that point, why don't you just play a different and better game altogether? There are several in the market, a few of them even allow you to use your GW miniatures.

Why do you think I play Kings of War?

And it looks like Mantic is going to be actively recruiting the Warhammer folks for the new edition of KoW, by coming out with official unofficial army lists for Warhammer like armies. (Unofficial - the army lists are not supported by Mantic miniatures or by the fluff. Official - they can be used in tournaments....)

I would really like to see somebody do the same for 40K.

The Auld Grump

**weeble1000**

Herzlos wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:
Just don't buy anything. Better than buying shares. Cheaper too.

Don't buy nothing. Just buy better stuff from other companies. GW will catch on eventually when Mantic buys them out

That's what I meant. Don't buy anything from GW, including shares.

Gamers are going to spend money on games. If it isn't on GW games it'll be on something else. That's a big problem for GW. A lost sale is usually also lost market share.

**SirDonlad**

Thirdeye wrote:
I agree. The rules need a complete re-start of the entire main rulebook complete with all codecies properly playtested. I also agree that GW isn't going to do it. So why don't we do it?

Let's try to stay focused. This thread is about getting us fans to pull together to buy stock to force a change in direction. Its a hell of a lot cheaper and more to the point to simply pull together to make a better game. Who's with me?

Me For Sure!

Freakazoitt wrote:Instead of buying new books we can just use old ones. 5 edition is looks stable to me. And maybe 4 edition.
If there is something missing, we can use home rules.
Instead of new boxes with 10 figures for 999 dollars - old used miniatures from ebay.
Instead of almost apocalyptic battles with 100500 tanks and flyers we can use Killteam or Necromunda. Or Necromunda-based skirmish with all races.
We should do something! People says "GW is dead" but they still spend a lot of money for buying dead things. Many of them even can't play normally, because can't collect full army

absolutely! when 7th edition hit i refused to buy into it - i thought that 6th edition was trying to do what i'm wanting with all the hardbackness and size of the BRB, so i just stuck with it.

I've said before on dakka that 40k is going to end up like D&D with different groups playing different editions (3.5th ed for me)

**Vermis**

agnosto wrote:
That said, there are a fair amount of people who have walked away from GW and still check in, me being one; it's like a train wreck, you know you shouldn't look but you just can't help it.

That. Don't conflate 'complainers' with 'fervent customers' so readily, Kitsune. (And I'll get back to your other post in a bit)

**Thirdeye**

PhantomViper wrote:
Thirdeye wrote:

I agree. The rules need a complete re-start of the entire main rulebook complete with all codecies properly playtested. I also agree that GW isn't going to do it. So why don't we do it?

Let's try to stay focused. This thread is about getting us fans to pull together to buy stock to force a change in direction. Its a hell of a lot cheaper and more to the point to simply pull together to make a better game. Who's with me?

At that point, why don't you just play a different and better game altogether? There are several in the market, a few of them even allow you to use your GW miniatures.

Well, that's kinda what I'm on about. But there's no game out there that's set-up to play 40K right out of the box (other that GW's game(s) of course). They all need tweaked a bit, some more than others. And why not combine different elements from different game. If they work together and made a better game, why not?

What I'm thinking is we should try to come to some consensus about the core rules and go from there. I don't know what you guys are looking for but I want something that's clean, quick, and intuitive, but rich enough that it can easily capture the scope and breath of the 40K universe, while not sacrificing too much detail for simplicity and abstraction. Of course you're going have some of that; its really about where to draw the line.

I've been playing around with some ideas shared a bit by Tomorrow's War. I think it could work really well. One problem however, is not the rules. Those are are just what I'm looking for. The problem is that it's radically different from GW's version(s) of the game. But of course another game might make a better base.

OK, so here's the challenge: Take the following situation and test your favorite rules to see who can get a resolution that's clean, quick, and intuitive, but rich enough to captures the complexities of the scenario:

A unit of four Space Marines and a Veteran Sergeant are shooting at a unit of five Orks and one Nob. Two Marines have Bolters, one has a flamer, one has a Missile Launcher, and the Sgt. has a Bolt Pistol. The Nob is in front and in the open and at 12 inch range. The Boys are strung-out behind him. One Boy is at 14 inch range and partially shielded by some foliage. Another Boy is at 16 inch range and he's partially behind a large rock. Another Boy is in the open at 18 inch range. Another Boy is in the open at 20 inch range. Another Boy is behind a fortified wall at 22 inch range.

Who's up for the challenge?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SirDonlad wrote:
Thirdeye wrote:
I agree. The rules need a complete re-start of the entire main rulebook complete with all codecies properly playtested. I also agree that GW isn't going to do it. So why don't we do it?

Let's try to stay focused. This thread is about getting us fans to pull together to buy stock to force a change in direction. Its a hell of a lot cheaper and more to the point to simply pull together to make a better game. Who's with me?

Me For Sure!

OK, great. So tell me, what are you looking for in a game of 40K?

**agnosto**

TheAuldGrump wrote:

And it looks like Mantic is going to be actively recruiting the Warhammer folks for the new edition of KoW, by coming out with official unofficial army lists for Warhammer like armies. (Unofficial - the army lists are not supported by Mantic miniatures or by the fluff. Official - they can be used in tournaments....)

I would really like to see somebody do the same for 40K.

The Auld Grump

Well, yeah; it's as simple a piece of marketing as there possibly could be:

Mantic: "Hey folks! Come play a fantasy game that takes place in a world that isn't blowed up!"

It's not like GW put, "To be continued" or anything at the end of the last End Times book....and it's certainly not like they're putting ANY information out there at all. So for all intents and purposes, it's a dead universe with the factions in complete disarray. Who wants to play that for months while GW sorts our their gack and finally gets back to us with a supposed reboot?