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So, DARPA has been working on a Smart Scope.

It basically works like a TAU Markerlight, Networking fire data, and including a metric TON of shooting assistance to the main shooter.

Mix that with their Self Guided Bullets and we've got the most expensively kit out soldier!

Now all we need is a cool motto like the tau, and some awesome helmets!

That isn't really anything like a Markerlight. Its more like a gun that can help the shooter be more accurate.

Laser targeting for missiles and such has been around for a long time too.

Still pretty cool, I remember seeing it for the first time.

More crap to carry as a ground pounder

 Jihadin wrote:
More crap to carry as a ground pounder

Lets hope this stuff eventually comes with PA

Well, as I see it:

The Tau use a lot of tech to make their accuracy better. From systems that triangulate shots (Markerlights), to helmet optics.

That's what this system does. It Uses Networking to triangulate shooters and targets. It can time shots with multiple shooters so they impact at the same time, even when shooters are at different distances.

From what I understand of Tau devices, this is exactly the same thing they use. I could be wrong, of course. But that's what I see.

This face melter is pretty much the king of Marker Lights.




IZLID lasers are fething awesome. Light saber of death pretty much. Warning: directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision...civvy IR lasers are regulated to <1 mW. IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt - over 1,000 times more powerful.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
This face melter is pretty much the king of Marker Lights.

"F this place in particular".

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
This face melter is pretty much the king of Marker Lights.




IZLID lasers are fething awesome. Light saber of death pretty much. Warning: directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision...civvy IR lasers are regulated to <1 mW. IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt - over 1,000 times more powerful.

These lasers are banned under the Geneva Conventions. The US and even Russia stopped making lasers of this power for battlefield use, IIRC only Israel pursues the technology, being fairly innured to the concept of human rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Weapons
https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/57jmcz.htm

 Orlanth wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
This face melter is pretty much the king of Marker Lights.




IZLID lasers are fething awesome. Light saber of death pretty much. Warning: directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision...civvy IR lasers are regulated to <1 mW. IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt - over 1,000 times more powerful.

These lasers are banned under the Geneva Conventions. The US and even Russia stopped making lasers of this power for battlefield use, IIRC only Israel pursues the technology, being fairly innured to the concept of human rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Weapons
https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/57jmcz.htm

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, since IZLIDs aren't "blinding laser weapons." They're used for directing fire, and they're standard equipment for JTACs in the US. Furthermore, the closest things to a blinding laser weapon, dazzlers (GLARE lasers), are currently in use at US checkpoints in Afghanistan, not in Israel. I never saw a single dazzler the whole time I was there, and I can't find any information suggesting that Israel ever issued dazzlers.

And if you read the website that YOU linked, you will see that the use of blinding laser weapons (which IZLIDs are not) is specifically prohibited by Israel's acceptance of the 1995 Protocols, and their own manuals on the rules of warfare.

Section A. Laser weapons specifically designed to cause permanent blindness
III. Military Manuals
According to Israel’s Manual on the Laws of War (1998), the 1995 Protocol IV to the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons “states that it is forbidden to employ weapons that use laser beams for the operational objective of causing blindness to an unprotected eye”.
Israel’s Manual on the Rules of Warfare (2006) states:
Blinding laser weapons. Laser technology today has progressed as far as making it possible to attack small targets and burn them, such as the human eye, a long way away from the laser operator. This Protocol, which dates from 1996, determines that it is forbidden to use weaponry that uses laser beams for the purpose of permanently blinding the enemy.

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_cou_il_rule86

Your anti-Israel bias is quite beautifully juxtaposed with your complete ignorance.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

IZLID lasers are fething awesome. Light saber of death pretty much. Warning: directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision...civvy IR lasers are regulated to <1 mW. IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt - over 1,000 times more powerful.

A marking laser doesnt neet to be anything like this powerful, even for long ranges.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, since IZLIDs aren't "blinding laser weapons."

Laughable u-turn.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

They're used for directing fire, and they're standard equipment for JTACs in the US. Furthermore, the closest things to a blinding laser weapon, dazzlers (GLARE lasers), are currently in use at US checkpoints in Afghanistan, not in Israel. I never saw a single dazzler the whole time I was there, and I can't find any information suggesting that Israel ever issued dazzlers.

Dazzlers are not blinding lasers, they are underpowered to prevent long term blindness. Thus are legal.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

And if you read the website that YOU linked, you will see that the use of blinding laser weapons (which IZLIDs are not) is specifically prohibited by Israel's acceptance of the 1995 Protocols, and their own manuals on the rules of warfare.

Which is why they were relabelled as fire direction systems, just happen to be grossly overpowered ones for the role that people have the habit of calling 'face melters' for some reason.
Why do you call them face melters Nuggz?

This is a dazzler laser......no comment

 Orlanth wrote:


A marking laser doesnt neet to be anything like this powerful, even for long ranges.

What do you know about this topic? Oh yeah - nothing. Thanks for playing kiddo. Have you ever served in an infantry unit directing fire from a helicopter? Have you ever flown a helicopter in support of infantry? You have zero authority to tell anyone how powerful a device needs to be for a specific purpose, so stick to what you know how to do well - troll threads in OT about the evils of Israel.

 Orlanth wrote:


Laughable u-turn.

Because it invalidates everything you said? Interesting... No U-Turn here. Any impartial observer will see that you're trolling this thread, and ignorant of the topic at hand. Laser blinding weapons have a specific definition. They are defined, AS PER YOUR LINK, as devices intended to blind the enemy. IZLIDs aren't particularly good at that, but if you stare into one point-blank it will definitely fry your retinas. This applies to all military IR lasers. Your "slowed" (as per dakka COC) argument is that all military IR lasers, with the capability to fry your retinas, are "blinding laser weapons" as per the Geneva conventions definition since they all have this capability. This is absurd as they are laser AIMING devices. They do not fit the definition of "laser blinding weapons" and are not employed in this role.

Find a case of an IZLID being employed as a blinding weapon or submit to me that you are in over your head, and apologize for trolling this thread with your garbage.

 Orlanth wrote:


Dazzlers are not blinding lasers, they are underpowered to prevent long term blindness. Thus are legal.

Actually if you'd bothered to read anything from the link you'd posted, you'd see that dazzlers are the only issued equipment that are in any way controversial, since their intended purpose is to blind. IZLIDs are targeting devices, and thus don't meet the definitions of Protocol IV. But don't let that stop you from trolling.

 Orlanth wrote:


Which is why they were relabelled as fire direction systems, just happen to be grossly overpowered ones for the role that people have the habit of calling 'face melters' for some reason.
Why do you call them face melters Nuggz?

They weren't relabeled. Since you suggest that this is the case, I challenge you to provide proof (which you won't, because you're clearly trolling this thread). They are fire direction systems. Give me ONE concrete instance in which these devices were used intentionally to blind people. Just one.


This is quite possibly the stupidest post I've ever given the liberty of a response, but I feel it necessary since you are in desperate need of an intellectual beating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
This is a dazzler laser......no comment

Which is completely different from an IZLID, which is IR and thus INVISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE. Thanks for playing Orlanth, you're clearly out of your element.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


A marking laser doesnt neet to be anything like this powerful, even for long ranges.

What do you know about this topic? Oh yeah - nothing. Thanks for playing kiddo. Have you ever served in an infantry unit directing fire from a helicopter? Have you ever flown a helicopter in support of infantry? You have zero authority to tell anyone how powerful a device needs to be for a specific purpose, so stick to what you know how to do well - troll threads in OT about the evils of Israel.

Serving in the IDF, and being a fanatic pro-Zionist doesn't mean you have an unbiased opinion either. I am not emotionally unattached to the issues of the Middle East either, so I stick to the facts.

For starters after appealing to authority by saying you served in the IDF you then rudely assume I know nothing. You don't know me. Also its the mark of a fanatic to claim someone is ignorant purely because they are not a supporter of Israel.
You don't know that in my own study there are books by the ICRC on laser weapons. I read them (they are public domain but not in common circulation), I had access to them because a very close family member was a very senior ICRC lawyer specialising on military law. My knowledge of laser weapons and their illegality stems from the books I read on the subject. While an amateur point of view it is hardly an ignorant one.
And for the record I didn't discuss laser weapons law with my family member.
Next time I am back at that house I will give you the serial codes for the books if you like.
Anyway, if we can get your ad hominem attacks out of the way we can go back to the point of discussion.

Fact remains these lasers you mentioned are are 1000 times more powerful, by your own definition than the limit for civilian devices that perform the same tasks. Allowing for safety limits taken off for military devices there is still no need for them to be made this powerful.
The fact that Israel has tactical laser systems intended to blind is not news:
http://www.wrmea.org/1996-july/israel-acquiring-banned-american-laser-that-melts-eyeballs-of-enemies.html

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

Laughable u-turn.

Because it invalidates everything you said? Interesting... No U-Turn here.

You were crowing about Israel's lasers, right up to the point where I pointed out they are considered illegal weapons by the ICRC.

"This face melter is pretty much the king of Marker Lights."
"IZLID lasers are fething awesome. Light saber of death pretty much. Warning: directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision...civvy IR lasers are regulated to <1 mW. IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt - over 1,000 times more powerful."

Now you are trying to make out it is anti-Semitic to question the IZLID, which while being grossly overpowered for its purpose and evidently damaging.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Any impartial observer will see that you're trolling this thread, and ignorant of the topic at hand. Laser blinding weapons have a specific definition. They are defined, AS PER YOUR LINK, as devices intended to blind the enemy. IZLIDs aren't particularly good at that, but if you stare into one point-blank it will definitely fry your retinas. This applies to all military IR lasers. Your "slowed" (as per dakka COC) argument is that all military IR lasers, with the capability to fry your retinas, are "blinding laser weapons" as per the Geneva conventions definition since they all have this capability. This is absurd as they are laser AIMING devices. They do not fit the definition of "laser blinding weapons" and are not employed in this role.

Actually I know more than you think, but its easier for you to just label me rather than discuss the facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

Sating into any laser is bad, military lasers have higher thresholds than used in civilian life, but the top end civilian models are used by law enforcement and the aviation industry and are more than adequate for tracking. Military tracking lasers are very rarely more than a few times more powerful than civilian ones, certainly not a 1000 times more powerful. Exception being for anti-missile lasers which due to their positioning and intended target are permissible at high strengths.

A weaponised blinding laser is basically any laser that is sufficiently powerful and directed at a ground target. It can be used as a sweeping beam and can blind multiple persons, permanently. The ICRC documentation details this and gives details of the level of laser required to do damage, which you so called tracking system laser well exceeds.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Find a case of an IZLID being employed as a blinding weapon or submit to me that you are in over your head, and apologize for trolling this thread with your garbage.

The average permanently blinded Palestinian probably doesn't have access to media and the cause of blindness would be denied. Not saying this has happened, but the absence of evidence of victims means little.
Let's throw this back at you. Find a case of an Iranian radiological weapon being used. You wont, there hasnt been one. Does this mean that Israel has no concerns over Iranian nuclear program?
Most illegal weapons are stockpiled for a long time before being used.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Actually if you'd bothered to read anything from the link you'd posted, you'd see that dazzlers are the only issued equipment that are in any way controversial, since their intended purpose is to blind. IZLIDs are targeting devices, and thus don't meet the definitions of Protocol IV. But don't let that stop you from trolling.

Try harder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzler_(weapon)

Dazzlers are intended to temporarily blind, they are a disabling weapon.
The face melter is way more powerful than those.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


Which is why they were relabelled as fire direction systems, just happen to be grossly overpowered ones for the role that people have the habit of calling 'face melters' for some reason.
Why do you call them face melters Nuggz?

They weren't relabeled. Since you suggest that this is the case, I challenge you to provide proof (which you won't, because you're clearly trolling this thread). They are fire direction systems. Give me ONE concrete instance in which these devices were used intentionally to blind people. Just one.

You still haven't answered the question.
Why do you call them face melters Nuggz?
I don't have to find documentary use of an illegal battlefield weapon, possession of the illegal weapon system is enough.

Also its not the first time Israel relabels its military assets to conceal their true function. Apparently Dimona is still a 'Nuclear Research Centre' and not a nuclear armaments factory. Even though the cat has been out of the bag since Mordechai Vanunu exposed what Dimona is in the mid 80's.
I am sure your grossly overpowered 'markerlight' has a low power setting and also can probably track a tank very well. But with settings ranging that high and a backhanded rep from former IDF personnel for melting faces, which you have unwisely let slip, oops Nuggz Thus we can be assure that is not all it does. For the record I don't take 'face melter' to be a literal comment, it doesn't matter its enough to know that the IDF themselves think of it as an extreme danger to health.
Dimona probably does do nuclear research, but everyone knows thats not why it's there.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

This is quite possibly the stupidest post I've ever given the liberty of a response, but I feel it necessary since you are in desperate need of an intellectual beating.

I am still waiting for you to post anything intellectually challenging.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Which is completely different from an IZLID, which is IR and thus INVISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE. Thanks for playing Orlanth, you're clearly out of your element.

Thanks for proving you know nothing.
What are you expecting, pew, pew, pew, like Star Wars?
A laser doesn't need to be in the visible light spectrum to cause irreperable damage to the eye. This is one of the nasty things about blinding lasers, you don't see the sweeping beam, then you don't see anything ever again.

http://www.dermweb.com/laser/eyesafety.html

Laser light in the visible to near infrared spectrum (i.e., 400 - 1400 nm) can cause damage to the retina resulting in scotoma (blind spot in the fovea). This wave band is also know as the "retinal hazard region".
Laser light in the ultraviolet (290 - 400 nm) or far infrared (1400 - 10,600 nm) spectrum can cause damage to the cornea and/or to the lens.

IR marking lasers are not "blinding laser weapons" according to the Geneva Conventions definition, NOR ARE THEY EMPLOYED IN THIS ROLE.

The link you provided says that MIRACL is going to be used to "fry eyeballs." That's ridiculous considering that the thing is pointed at the sky. Here's what the thing actually is: http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/ChemicalHighEnergyLaser/TacticalHighEnergyLaser/Documents/pageDocuments/SPIE_Manuscript_Tactical_high-.pdf

MIRACL is called THEL (Tactical High Energy Laser), and it's used to shoot down incoming artillery shells. Could it fry someone's eyes? Sure, just like Iron Dome could theoretically be used to shoot down a plane. But it's incredibly inefficient, at something like $20,000 per shot. The IDF doesn't have enough "evil Jew gold" to blind all of the Arabs at $20k/shot.

Prove that Israel is using IR marking lasers to blind people. Until you do that, you are merely wasting my time. This is some of the stupidest, libelous crap I've read on this board.


The whole "face melter" thing is slang for powerful flashlights, most notably used by Clint Smith from Thunder Ranch. Example of colloquial use here: http://www.reddit.com/r/flashlight/comments/31lxu1/imalent_4000_lumen_facemelter_touch_sensor/

I didn't "let anything slip." Your obsession with the Evil Jew Conspiracy (TM) is hilarious.

IR lights or commonly called Black Out drive when wearing NOD's. The driver side headlight has a IR bulb in a small slit that assist to make everything a brighter green. Still no depth perception and everything is in shades of green and black


Edit

You two want to back down from the "gotcha" posts

Just throwing my thoughts out there, but assuming this laser is used to direct the path of explosives, surely it would need to be powerful enough to be clearly distinguished from the background IR radiation you get from firing explosive stuff at the area?
I mean, I'm guessing that the civilian IR laser power limit is nowhere near the IR spectrum peak you would get from something like a hand grenade, and I'm pretty sure you're firing something more dangerous than a hand grenade if you're using a laser to guide it.

 -Shrike- wrote:
Just throwing my thoughts out there, but assuming this laser is used to direct the path of explosives, surely it would need to be powerful enough to be clearly distinguished from the background IR radiation you get from firing explosive stuff at the area?
I mean, I'm guessing that the civilian IR laser power limit is nowhere near the IR spectrum peak you would get from something like a hand grenade, and I'm pretty sure you're firing something more dangerous than a hand grenade if you're using a laser to guide it.

This is a good point - especially in urban environments light pollution is a huge problem. The other issue is the ranges involved: civvy IR lasers will get you out to 100 yards (<1mw). A good military IR aiming laser (5mW) might be usable out to 500+. With an IZLID (200 mW + ) we're talking about 1-2 kilometers range and it has to be visible from a helicopter and distinguishable from other IR lasers in the battlespace.

A lot of lasers have to be set to higher power because they are usually activated in conjunction with IR illuminators, which washes out the beam easily. But it's not a race to build the most powerful laser you can since laser bloom is very undesirable for aiming.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
Just throwing my thoughts out there, but assuming this laser is used to direct the path of explosives, surely it would need to be powerful enough to be clearly distinguished from the background IR radiation you get from firing explosive stuff at the area?
I mean, I'm guessing that the civilian IR laser power limit is nowhere near the IR spectrum peak you would get from something like a hand grenade, and I'm pretty sure you're firing something more dangerous than a hand grenade if you're using a laser to guide it.

This is a good point - especially in urban environments light pollution is a huge problem. The other issue is the ranges involved: civvy IR lasers will get you out to 100 yards (<1mw). A good military IR aiming laser (5mW) might be usable out to 500+. With an IZLID (200 mW + ) we're talking about 1-2 kilometers range and it has to be visible from a helicopter and distinguishable from other IR lasers in the battlespace.

A lot of lasers have to be set to higher power because they are usually activated in conjunction with IR illuminators, which washes out the beam easily. But it's not a race to build the most powerful laser you can since laser bloom is very undesirable for aiming.

They are shrike. You can get 2km out of a good hand held rig. This is for a set up which is about 5x more powerful than a police laser (for speeding motorists) and civilian equipment.

http://www.eotechinc.com/tactical-lights-lasers/atpial-anpeq-15-restricted-advanced-target-pointerilluminatoraiming-laser

Lasers don't need to be anything like as powerful as the face melter unless designed as a battlefield weapon. In fact their usage at high power would contribute to battlefield haze, not cut through it. The ICRC has heard these excuses before, so has the UN and the power requirements for an aiming laser are well understood.

Put it this way, when used as an 'aiming laser' on a high power setting, if aimed at an occupied target, one would be committing a war crime even if used for the purpose stated.

Still waiting for that proof. Alternatively, an apology to everyone for trolling this thread and spewing libelous anti-Semitic garbage will suffice.

Everything Orlanth says is made twice as funny in that he actually seems to believe it. "Lasers are called face melters and they're banned under the geneva convention because israel uses them to murder people even though Israel was barely a year old at the time of the convention and lasers wouldn't be invented for like another decade and obviously no modern military force ever uses lasers at all ever because lasers are immoral."



Considering the expense and weight of the scope, it likely won't see practical use anytime soon, but this is still pretty boss.

 DarkLink wrote:
Everything Orlanth says is made twice as funny in that he actually seems to believe it. "Lasers are called face melters and they're banned under the geneva convention because israel uses them to murder people even though Israel was barely a year old at the time of the convention and lasers wouldn't be invented for like another decade and obviously no modern military force ever uses lasers at all ever because lasers are immoral."

I cant see any means for you to convert what I wrote into the above.

- Nuggz called a specific laser used by the IDF a 'face melter', i used his own words to define a specific laser weapon. Most lasers are not face melters, and it is a desperate stretch to assume I think they are.

- The Geneva Convention bans the use of weapons intended to main or mutilate. The Hague conventions are where individual weapons were first excluded. The dates of either are not relevant as the protocols are updated as needed. The protocols banning blinding lasers were from the 90's.

It is highly questionable to falsely paraphrase what others have said, let alone with a grossly distorted emphasis; rather than link actual comments in context. Please stop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Still waiting for that proof.

I gave you all the evidence that you need Nuggz.
Shown that you have no idea about what makes up a blinding laser.
Showed how any why they are banned.
Evemn showed how the weapon you crowed about way exceeded both that required for use as an aiming device and was well into the danger area for a battlefield blinding weapon.
You even stated it could be used to blind with your own words.

You haven't said anything to refute the evidence I provided.

You even said that:

IZLID lasers are fething awesome. Light saber of death pretty much. Warning: directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision...civvy IR lasers are regulated to <1 mW. IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt - over 1,000 times more powerful.

then tried to cover your tracks ineptly with this:

This is quite possibly the stupidest post I've ever given the liberty of a response, but I feel it necessary since you are in desperate need of an intellectual beating.
Which is completely different from an IZLID, which is IR and thus INVISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE. Thanks for playing Orlanth, you're clearly out of your element.

Your 'intellectual beating' was to point out that a laser which you yourself said could blind, somehow couldn't blind because it was outside the visible light spectrum.
Which as any medical text on light damage to the human eye will tell you is no defense, and a link explaining such was provided.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Alternatively, an apology to everyone for trolling this thread and spewing libelous anti-Semitic garbage will suffice.

Nuggz, you are not in a position to accuse anyone of trolling. I have tried hard to be rational with you and answer your comments with data.
Links were given, evidence given. All you have done is resort to ad hominem attacks, and baseless accusations of racism.

And for the record just because I criticise the excesses of the Israeli government doesnt mean I am 'anti-Semitic'. There is an enormous moral and mental gulf between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, though it is usual copy for hardcore Zionists to overlook that fact. Labeling is so much easier than formulating a rational defense to critique, thankfully that ploy is overworn and doesn't work like it used to.

I suggest you stop trying to label me, and try to post something factual with evidence, or just don't reply at all.

Proof or apology.

Your replies make it clear that you either didn't read my posts, or you don't understand English. So, in language you will understand, let me make this clear:

Proof the IDF had ever used MIRACL or an IZLID or any other targeting laser to blind the enemy, or an apology.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Proof or apology.
Your replies make it clear that you either didn't read my posts, or you don't understand English. So, in language you will understand, let me make this clear:
Proof the IDF had ever used MIRACL or an IZLID or any other targeting laser to blind the enemy, or an apology.

I don't need proof it has been used, with or without casualty reports.
Having banned weaponry in an arsenal is enough to warrant condemnation.
That was explained to you earlier.

Nevertheless there is an element of proof on this thread by your own words:

Combine the two pieces of evidence, though allowing for their source I wouldn't consider them credible outside the context of replying to their own source -

"IZLID lasers are fething awesome. Light saber of death pretty much. Warning: directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision...civvy IR lasers are regulated to <1 mW. IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt - over 1,000 times more powerful."

"You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, since IZLIDs aren't "blinding laser weapons." They're used for directing fire,"
So you were describing a laser that is sufficiently powerful to cause immediate and permanent blindness for aiming at a ground target for the purpose of directing fire. In other words: at someone.

High powered lasers are legal only for anti-missile systems and other tasks that don't involve using them against people.
Most military targeting lasers exceed civilian limits, and can be hazardous, but not to the extremes you have mentioned.

Lets clarify this: For your laser to be 1,000 times more powerful than a civilian 1mW laser..

Edited, with thanks to shrike. The numbering error was on my part, however I cannot be blamed for taking comments quoted here at face value: Lasers 1000x the permitted safe level for civilian use. Especially if the number used were within the ranges listed for immediate endangerment to vision, and the author of the comments claims to be IDF personnel and gives anecdotal evidence to them being called a name which implies use as a weapon.

So you have no proof? Thanks, that's exactly what I was waiting for.

Targeting lasers aren't illegal. You are wrong. No more needs to be said.

 Orlanth wrote:
"IZLID lasers are fething awesome. Light saber of death pretty much. Warning: directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision...civvy IR lasers are regulated to <1 mW. IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt - over 1,000 times more powerful."

Lets clarify this: For your laser to be 1,000 times more powerful than a civilian 1mW laser means you have a typo and "IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt" means "IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 gigawatt".

We are talking about a 1GW 'aiming' laser right, one thousand times a 1mW laser?
We are talking about aiming a 1GW laser at a military ground target? Yes, or no.

Firing a 1GW laser at a ground target is not 'fething awesome', it's a fething war crime.

No. NO. Nonononono. NOOO!

1mW means "One milliwatt", or 1x10^-3 Watts.
1MW means "One megawatt", or 1x10^3 Watts.
1GW means "One gigawatt", or 1x10^6 Watts.

You are obviously confusing mW and MW. All civilian lasers are in the mW range, so a 1 W laser is 1,000 times more powerful than the average 1mW laser pointer.

I just looked at the Wikipedia page for dazzlers, and the first one with a listed power rating was 250mW, or 0.25 W, within the range of powers Nuggz quoted for the IZLID system. Ergo, if the possession of the IZLID system constitutes a war crime, then so would possession of such a dazzler, as by your own admission, "A weaponised blinding laser is basically any laser that is sufficiently powerful and directed at a ground target."

Also, please stop referencing the comment about "directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision"... the same is true of dazzlers; if you shine a powerful laser directly into your eyes from a short distance, it will burn your retina. That doesn't mean it can do the same at much greater distances.

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
"IZLID lasers are fething awesome. Light saber of death pretty much. Warning: directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision...civvy IR lasers are regulated to <1 mW. IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt - over 1,000 times more powerful."

Lets clarify this: For your laser to be 1,000 times more powerful than a civilian 1mW laser means you have a typo and "IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 watt" means "IZLIDs are around 200 mW to 1 gigawatt".

We are talking about a 1GW 'aiming' laser right, one thousand times a 1mW laser?
We are talking about aiming a 1GW laser at a military ground target? Yes, or no.

Firing a 1GW laser at a ground target is not 'fething awesome', it's a fething war crime.

No. NO. Nonononono. NOOO!

1mW means "One milliwatt", or 1x10^-3 Watts.
1MW means "One megawatt", or 1x10^3 Watts.
1GW means "One gigawatt", or 1x10^6 Watts.

You are obviously confusing mW and MW. All civilian lasers are in the mW range, so a 1 W laser is 1,000 times more powerful than the average 1mW laser pointer.

I just looked at the Wikipedia page for dazzlers, and the first one with a listed power rating was 250mW, or 0.25 W, within the range of powers Nuggz quoted for the IZLID system. Ergo, if the possession of the IZLID system constitutes a war crime, then so would possession of such a dazzler, as by your own admission, "A weaponised blinding laser is basically any laser that is sufficiently powerful and directed at a ground target."

Above edited, with thanks for the correction.
I misread 1mW as 1MW throughout, what matters is the comparative scale. With 1mW claimed as limit for civilian use, and even that doesn't appear to be true.

The numbering error was on my part, however I cannot be blamed for taking comments quoted here at face value: Lasers 1000x the permitted safe level for civilian use. Especially if the number used were within the ranges listed for immediate endangerment to vision, and the author of the comments claims to be IDF personnel and gives anecdotal evidence to them being called a name which implies use as a weapon.

The commentary however does stand. This laser is considerably more powerful than others used for the role, and while any laser can be hazardous to health, dazzlers are intended to be used to make eye contact without notable side effects, for a start they strobe, fairly slowly. A targeting laser doesnt share those characteristics, especially one which is suspiciously heavily overpowered for the role.

Also, please stop referencing the comment about "directing it at your eyeballs will cause immediate and permanent loss of vision"... the same is true of dazzlers; if you shine a powerful laser directly into your eyes from a short distance, it will burn your retina. That doesn't mean it can do the same at much greater distances.

So to recap your claims:

1) targeting lasers are illegal.

The truth: you're wrong.

2) Israel uses targeting lasers to blind.

The truth: you're wrong.

3) targeting lasers are too powerful for their intended use.

The truth: you don't know the difference between a milliwatt and a megawatt and have zero experience using them so, as usual, you're wrong.

4) MIRACL is a blinding laser weapon.

The truth: it's used for shooting down incoming indirect fire weapons and, spoiler alert - you're wrong.

5) the slang "face melter" is evidence of some evil Jewish conspiracy.

The truth: I've demonstrated that it is colloquially used to describe bright flashlights aaaaand...you're wrong.

6) The US and Russia stopped making "lasers of this power" and Israel alone develops them.

The truth: BEM, the manufacturer of IZLIDs, is a US company and I'm not even sure that particular model is in use by any IDF unit.



The fact is that you've been so thoroughly owned in this thread that I actually am beginning to feel bad for you.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
So to recap your claims:

Ok, lets recap my claims, but lets do so HONESTLY.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

1) targeting lasers are illegal.
The truth: you're wrong.

What I actually said: targeting lasers are legal

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

2) Israel uses targeting lasers to blind.
The truth: you're wrong..

What I actually said: Israel from admission of a claimed current or former IDF staff member deploys a targeting laser which has an extra power setting which can be used to grossly overpower the weapon to 1000mW.
The same source, who claimed to be familiar with the weapon said it could cause 'immediate and permanent blindness' (thus definable as an illegal blinding weapon)

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

3) targeting lasers are too powerful for their intended use.
The truth: you don't know the difference between a milliwatt and a megawatt and have zero experience using them so, as usual, you're wrong..

What I said: I did indeed misread 1mW as 1MW throughout, which was an error of scaling wheras I was reading comparative power of lasers mentioned.
However your appeal to authority doesn't help, especially if you apply characteristics to the device which classify it as a blinding weapon.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

4) MIRACL is a blinding laser weapon.
The truth: it's used for shooting down incoming indirect fire weapons and, spoiler alert - you're wrong.

I never said MIRACL was a blinding laser weapon.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

5) the slang "face melter" is evidence of some evil Jewish conspiracy.
The truth: I've demonstrated that it is colloquially used to describe bright flashlights aaaaand...you're wrong.

The only person mentioning an 'evil Jewish conspiracy' is YOU.
You do so repeatedly and attrribute the words and sentiments to me as an attempt to paint my views as anti-Semitic.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

6) The US and Russia stopped making "lasers of this power" and Israel alone develops them.

The truth: BEM, the manufacturer of IZLIDs, is a US company and I'm not even sure that particular model is in use by any IDF unit.

What I actually said: The US and Russia gave up blinding laser weapon development, AFAIK Israel was the only country believed to be still persuing the technology.

Addendum: Human Rights Watch laid concerns that Israel is developing illegal blinding lasers. On further research it is believed China also now has a prototype illegal blinding laser.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

The fact is that you've been so thoroughly owned in this thread that I actually am beginning to feel bad for you.

I doubt that is the case. You wouldn't try and repeatedly paint someone as anti-Semitic, so vehemently and amateurly, then claim sympathy for them.