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 daddyorchips wrote:
the answer is Russ. Assuming that this is a fist-fight, and Horus is not at the 'Infused-with-the-power-of-all-the-chaos-gods' stage.

We know that it is Russ because that was always his role - the Emperor's executioner. He had to be able to defeat the most powerful enemies the emperor could envision. Logically the Emperor created the primarchs to be as powerful as he could. Therefore the one he created to kill the toughest things must be the best fighter.

Others are smarter, bigger, psychicer, better tacticians, nicer, sneakier, more creative etc etc but Russ was the hard bastard.

Let's look at what we know (or is inferred) about Primarch vs Primarch.

Three primarchs have been killed, all by other primarchs.

2 by Russ
1 by Fulgrim

Curze has a good record, having defeated Dorn, Vulkan, Corax, and the Lion in fights, but he was also beaten by Lion too IIRC

Russ also beat Magnus in a fight. Magnus could probably have beaten him if he'd used psychic powers though - but the most powerful psychic abilities need time and space to cast - sacrifices, rituals etc etc that so probably not that useful in a one on one.

Horus was scared of Sanguinius as he thought that S was the only one who could beat him (and everyone liked him better). Given that a weakened S was no match for chaos Horus, we can assume that Horus's fears were based on his pre-chaos strength. Perhaps S is a challenger to Russ?

Who won the legendary fight between Russ and Lion though?

Russ beat Angron in a fight too, I am sure.

Angron beat Russ in a fight.

We also don't know what happened to the two missing primarchs. The Space Wolves were involved in the destruction of at least one of the missing legions, but we know nothing beyond that. It could be that Russ defeated the primarchs in single combat, it could be that the Space Wolves directed mass fire on the primarchs, or it could be that the primarchs were brought before the Emperor who disposed of them personally. We know too little about it to notch those as kills for Russ.

 daddyorchips wrote:

Who won the legendary fight between Russ and Lion though?

Lion wins the fist fight.

This invariably gets disputed though, with claiming that Russ wasn't going wholeheartedly.
Lion also beats Curze, though I've noticed that Curze's writing is a bit... schizophrenic, both in regards to him, and his abilities.

Take of that what you will.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Great White wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Bassline wrote:
In a single fight... one on one... russ that is role. Beat the others up and get them back into line.


In an endurance fight? Vulkan.... If your immortal that is one of the best weapons you can have.

Except that we know that Angron beat Russ. Corax believes that only Horus and Sanguinius have a chance against Angron, and Horus believes only Angron has a chance against Sanguinius. That puts Angron and Sanguinius together at the top of the list, with Horus either with them or close behind.

Why should I care what Corax thinks?

Why should I care whether or not you care?

Why should I care about you caring or not caring about my level of caring?

No love for Loregar guys?

 GKTiberius wrote:
No love for Loregar guys?

Until his Chaos buffs, Lorgar would be sitting pretty at the bottom of the list, either right above or right below Horus.

Horus was one of the better hand-to-hand combatants.

I still have yet to see a 1-18 list....

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I mostly agree with that, though you forgot to mention Curze was killed by M'shen, so not every primarch was killed by another primarch.

But Curze only died to a Callidus assassin because he lowered all his defenses and let the assassin kill him. He also beat the crap out of Dorn in a very one sided hand to hand fight. I would say Curze is one of the better combatants. He has lots of experience killing with nothing but his bare hands.

The Lion would be top tier, due to his track record, along with Russ, Sanguinius, and Angron.

I would put Horus at mid tier, until he was pumped full of Chaos roids, at which point he became top tier. I don't know why some people seem to think that Horus was weaker in combat. Lack of feats? Only that we've seen. He was apparently good enough to become Warmaster. The other Primarchs seem to all have a healthy respect for him, and at least some of that comes from his combat skills. We know that Corax considered him a possible equal to Angron, and we know that he's eventually going to kill Sanguinius and put The Emperor in a permanent coma. As for why none of the super-psykers in the vicinity didn't just blow his ship to bits, did you ever consider that Horus was preventing it with his own warp-amped psychic powers? That's the simplest answer, and it would mean that the excuses everyone is making for Sangy and the Big E would hold less weight, because Horus had other things occupying him too.

After that, it takes a lot more guess work, with some more surely positioned than others

Mid tier- Fulgrim (for sure: killed Ferrus, put Guilliman in a coma), Curze, Vulkan, Magnus (psychic powers and still taking a near loss to Russ into account), possibly Khan, Corax, and Alpharius.

Low tier- Perturabo, Dorn, Guilliman (all more about tactics than brawn, and we have Guilliman and Dorn losing to other Primarchs on the record), Ferrus Manus (possibly mid-tier, but definitely lower than Fulgrim), Mortartian (I think I read somewhere that his combat skills weren't too hot in comparison with the other Primarchs, certainly nobody seemed particularly impressed with them), and Lorgar (pretty established in canon that he was always more of a speaker than a fighter)

 chuckz1487 wrote:
I still have yet to see a 1-18 list....

I'm not sure if people interpreted it correctly, I found the wording confusing personally, if you want a list 1-18 I can make one, but it won't be of whom I think is the best cc fighter, as eventually I would get to a point where I don't know enough of the primarchs to know who is better. Instead, I'm going off of the order when each primarch took to their legion. (Courtesy of the wiki)

1) Horus
2) Leman Russ
3) Ferrus Manus
4)Fulgrim
5) Vulkan
6) Rogal Dorn
7) Roboute Guilliman
8) Magnus the Red
9) Sanguinius
10) Lion El'Jonson
11) Perturabo
12) Mortarion
13) Lorgar
14) Jaghatai Khan
15) Konrad Curze
16) Angron
17) Corvus Cora
18) Alpharius Omegon

 fallinq wrote:

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I mostly agree with that, though you forgot to mention Curze was killed by M'shen, so not every primarch was killed by another primarch.

But Curze only died to a Callidus assassin because he lowered all his defenses and let the assassin kill him. He also beat the crap out of Dorn in a very one sided hand to hand fight. I would say Curze is one of the better combatants. He has lots of experience killing with nothing but his bare hands.

The Lion would be top tier, due to his track record, along with Russ, Sanguinius, and Angron.

I would put Horus at mid tier, until he was pumped full of Chaos roids, at which point he became top tier. I don't know why some people seem to think that Horus was weaker in combat. Lack of feats? Only that we've seen. He was apparently good enough to become Warmaster. The other Primarchs seem to all have a healthy respect for him, and at least some of that comes from his combat skills. We know that Corax considered him a possible equal to Angron, and we know that he's eventually going to kill Sanguinius and put The Emperor in a permanent coma. As for why none of the super-psykers in the vicinity didn't just blow his ship to bits, did you ever consider that Horus was preventing it with his own warp-amped psychic powers? That's the simplest answer, and it would mean that the excuses everyone is making for Sangy and the Big E would hold less weight, because Horus had other things occupying him too.

After that, it takes a lot more guess work, with some more surely positioned than others

Mid tier- Fulgrim (for sure: killed Ferrus, put Guilliman in a coma), Curze, Vulkan, Magnus (psychic powers and still taking a near loss to Russ into account), possibly Khan, Corax, and Alpharius.

Low tier- Perturabo, Dorn, Guilliman (all more about tactics than brawn, and we have Guilliman and Dorn losing to other Primarchs on the record), Ferrus Manus (possibly mid-tier, but definitely lower than Fulgrim), Mortartian (I think I read somewhere that his combat skills weren't too hot in comparison with the other Primarchs, certainly nobody seemed particularly impressed with them), and Lorgar (pretty established in canon that he was always more of a speaker than a fighter)

I would put Sanguinius and Angron in the top tier by themselves. Russ, the Lion, Fulgrim, Horus and maybe Magnus* in the second tier. After that it gets a lot muddier I think.

The reason I put an asterisk next to Magnus is because I'm not certain if I'm remembering the fight properly. Was Magnus using his psychic powers to help his legion and only fighting Russ physically, or was he also using psychic powers against Russ? If he was just fighting with Russ physically than he fared very well and should be in the same tier I think.

According to Horus and corax the only one to stand against sanguinius would be Angron so those 2 would be the top fighting wise.

Of the 2 Angron has the better record fighting primarchs, Easily beating both russ and guilleman.

I might be remembering this wrong but didn't perturabo beat fulgrim in angel exterminatus while having his power drained? that would place him very high aswell.

Magnus could win but not without his phycic power.

 fallinq wrote:

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I mostly agree with that, though you forgot to mention Curze was killed by M'shen, so not every primarch was killed by another primarch.

But Curze only died to a Callidus assassin because he lowered all his defenses and let the assassin kill him. He also beat the crap out of Dorn in a very one sided hand to hand fight. I would say Curze is one of the better combatants. He has lots of experience killing with nothing but his bare hands.

I wasn't saying M'Shen was capable of killing him in a fight, I was merely pointing it out that Curze hadn't died to a primarch. M'Shen was good, but not good enough to take out a primarch

I submit that Horus' primary success was as a strategist, coordinator, commander and inspiring leader. That's why he was chosen as Warmaster, not because he was the toughest, meanest fighter. Well, that and being the Emperor's trusted lieutenant and favorite.

That's not to say he wasn't a bad customer in personal combat, of course. Comparing any Primarch, even Lorgar, to a lesser entity is an exercise in futility.

My personal feeling is that Angron should be the most skilled personal combatant. From a storytelling perspective he's pretty much a one-trick pony. To rank anyone ahead of ol' Nails-in-the-Brain does him a disservice.

Sanguinus has his hypersonic wings and Angelic perfection, so he doesn't need to be tops in bada$$ery. Again, from a storytelling perspective he has other things going for him.

Russ is the Emperor's Executioner not because he's the biggest bada$$, but because he's unswervingly loyal to the Emperor's command and perfectly willing to do the dirty jobs.

Full disclosure - I loathe Russ. That said, while the Lion beat Russ, even I have to admit it was because Jon'son sucker punched Russ after a long, inconclusive struggle.

From Prospero Burns I got the impression that Magnus lost in large part because of his mental state (rather important to a psyker). The Wolves, including Russ himself, came completely tooled up for the prey they were hunting. By contrast, the K-Sons, including Magnus, were completely and deliberately unprepared. Even when Magnus comes to face Russ he appears reluctant, and we know he felt he deserved his fate. It's entirely possible that a fully prepared and motivated Magnus would have fared far better against Russ.

Still, I'd put Russ in the top tier along with Angron and Sanguinus. Counting psychic power I'd put Magnus on the first rank. With respect to other posters, Magnus clearly did not need prep to rip Titans in half. Ritual and ceremony were tools to enhance psychic power, not prerequisites.

Since the OP for some reason disallowed psyker abilities I'd drop Magnus to bottom rank alongside Lorgar. Both were more scholars than warriors.

Curze would be a wicked opponent if he had the chance to sow terror and uncertainty in advance. Even without that edge in a straight up arena fight I'd rank him right behind Angron, Sanguinus and Russ based on the way he handled Dorn. I think too many fans dismiss Dorn too easily based on that fight; I prefer to give Curze credit instead. Curze (who I also dislike) cut his teeth on the arts of stealth, terror and murder, which gives him extensive experience in one-on-one combat compared to more unit-oriented Primarchs like Guilliman and Dorn, but not as applicable to an arena fight as the gladiator Angron.

I'd personally rank Fulgrim highly as well. The way he honed his skills to perfection pre-Anathame would be an edge in a one-on-one duel, where it might not be applicable in the wild melee of mass combat. Again, I wouldn't rely much on his victories over a distraught Ferrus or post-Heresy Guilliman due to demonic influence. Not that he couldn't have beaten them in a fair pre-Heresy fight, it's just that with the demonic influence we can't be sure how much of the victory was actually Fulgrim.

I couldn't begin to rate most of the rest, but I'll take the words of Corax et. al. with a grain of salt. Prior to the Heresy most of the Primarchs viewed Horus with either envy or adoration that would skew their assessment of his fighting abilities.

In any case I'd be willing to bet the gap between the greatest and worst fighters among the Primarchs was a matter of scant degree. It would only matter if they were up against a peer or a being of equivalent power.

I know I wouldn't want to be on the bad side of any of 'em.

My two cents.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
In any case I'd be willing to bet the gap between the greatest and worst fighters among the Primarchs was a matter of scant degree. It would only matter if they were up against a peer or a being of equivalent power.

That's perhaps the best comment yet. :-)

Still, even if it's just a one vs one fight with no psychic powers allowed there's many variables to think of. IIRC Sanguinius was said to be the best swordsman of them all, which would serve him well in an honorable duel where you follow rules and act all gentlemanly. Someone more rabid like Angron or Leman Russ would have a slight advantage in a no-holds barred fight due to their aggressive fighting styles. But what if you start the fight on bikes and go at each other with power lances? And so on...

 daddyorchips wrote:
the answer is Russ. Assuming that this is a fist-fight, and Horus is not at the 'Infused-with-the-power-of-all-the-chaos-gods' stage.

We know that it is Russ because that was always his role - the Emperor's executioner. He had to be able to defeat the most powerful enemies the emperor could envision. Logically the Emperor created the primarchs to be as powerful as he could. Therefore the one he created to kill the toughest things must be the best fighter.

Others are smarter, bigger, psychicer, better tacticians, nicer, sneakier, more creative etc etc but Russ was the hard bastard.

Let's look at what we know (or is inferred) about Primarch vs Primarch.

Three primarchs have been killed, all by other primarchs.

2 by Russ
1 by Fulgrim

Curze has a good record, having defeated Dorn, Vulkan, Corax, and the Lion in fights, but he was also beaten by Lion too IIRC

Russ also beat Magnus in a fight. Magnus could probably have beaten him if he'd used psychic powers though - but the most powerful psychic abilities need time and space to cast - sacrifices, rituals etc etc that so probably not that useful in a one on one.

Horus was scared of Sanguinius as he thought that S was the only one who could beat him (and everyone liked him better). Given that a weakened S was no match for chaos Horus, we can assume that Horus's fears were based on his pre-chaos strength. Perhaps S is a challenger to Russ?

Who won the legendary fight between Russ and Lion though?

Russ beat Angron in a fight too, I am sure.

I think its a daft question really, at the end of the day martial arts are too dependent on luck. Look at professional boxers, they regularly fight and win, then lose the rematch. Anything can happen, a lucky wayward punch, a slip or trip... I think you would probably pick 10-12 of them (the particularly martial ones) and say on any given day the one could beat the other.

Angron could conceivably beat Russ one day and lose the next, the fluff is so vast now there are tons of instances of them winning and losing to the other. The Angel beat Kurze then Kurze gave both Gulliman and the Angel a bit of a pasting. Gulliman did pretty well against both Angron and Lorgar and then got beat by a regular Space Marine, Russ got knocked out by the Angel and then snapped Magnus' back.

I won three fights during my boxing career and then lost cos I ducked into one and caught me right on the chin, the last bloke was definately weaker than at least two of the guys I beat earlier.

Fightin is messy business, I don't think you can ever say with a degree of certainty who is going to win a free-for all, and certainly not when you throw all of those insane powers into the mix.

Although, I suppose perpetual like Vulkan would technically outlast everyone.

If we're taking away major abilities like Magnus' psychic abilities we might as well go the whole hog and say Russ isn't allowed to use his rage or his axe. Sanguinius isn't allowed to use his wings, etc.

Horus is the best followed by Guilliman bow to your liege thinbloods.

I apologize, under the given parameters I think it would be next to impossible to rank the Primarch on martial ability, because I think the parameters artificially handicap certain ones over others. In an effort to post as close to what the OP wants I will ignore the given parameters and post a list based on what I think an accurate ranking would be. This is solely based on my knowledge of the Primarchs and their abilities. I put Horus first to represent is empowerment by chaos, and Magnus second because his sorcery powers (despite being unfairly outlawed by the OP) would allow him to probably incapacitate or kill most of the others given the opportunity. The following 4 are pinnacles of marital prowess in one form or another, and the remaining 12 are ranked based on my perception of them. I am in no way claiming this to be a canonically accurate list, this is just what I think based on my knowledge, interpretation, and if I am to be honest, personal wishes and bias. Please be kind.

1. Horus
2. Magnus the Red
3. Angron
4. Sanguinius
5. Lion El'Jonson
6. Leman Russ
7. Fulgrim
8. Mortarion
9. Konrad Curze
10. Corvus Corax
11. Jaghatai Khan
12. Roboute Guilliman
13. Rogal Dorn
14. Ferrus Manus
15. Alpharius Omegon
16. Vulkan
17. Perturabo
18. Lorgar

 Ratius wrote:

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back.

This pops up every so often. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Emperor was somehow holding back hoping Horus would see the errors of his ways. Horus was able to stand toe to toe with the single most powerful entity in the Galaxy at the time. Whether they were doing Queensbury rules or firing pewpew lasers at each other is irrelevant. In addition depending on which version of the fluff GW decide to make cannon, the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus in the end was because either a Custodian or Olius opened a chink in his armor.
There is no other Primarch that could have stood against that. Magus psychically perhaps but I believe Horus had eclipsed him at that point too having all 4 chaos Gods backing him.

Do you actually believe that horse manure about the chink in the armor? That is...... less than likely. The heroic custodes as you put it is more like imperial propaganda to make every insignificant man out of trillions that sacrifices their life on the battlefield think that their individual sacrifice could amount to something. To further add there is also a fluff writing crediting that stupid chink in armor theory to Sanguinius. To humor the chink in armor idea lets say that for arguments sake the Emperor mightiest of men who smacks around the Chaos Gods keeping them at bay in the warp over 10,000 years after his actual demise through sheer willpower and manliness needed a chink in Horus' "armor" to beat him. This would mean that they would have to "chink" his daemonic protection not his physical armor. The Emperor blamed his soul not his body so breaking his armor doesn't amount to anything. That being said the Custodes or whatever would have to be a pretty powerful psyker and gotten Horus off guard which could never happen because he could psychically sense the custodes. The more likely answer being Sanguinius could have pulled off this "chink" but even still it is hardly likely the Emperor needed that. Fact is that the Emperor probably did want to save 1 of his 20 genetic demigod experiments that actually succeeded (also he had already lost 2 at this point) so he was testing to see if there was any hope for Horus. It is true that Horus probably would have demolished him had he let his guard down completely but in a "toe to toe" no holds barred match big E would have blamed Horus so fast and so hard that he would have never even existed. I don't deny this would have taken no less than his full power, but Horus couldn't win unless the man as stated above who still keeps the entire god damn warp at bay for the past 10,000 years wasn't as powerful as they say he is.

P.S.
The Emperor did do it that fast when ass wipe Horus was distracted by a Custodes or if you believe certain texts an imperial soldier (what an ass) thinking he had bested the greatest psyker period in single combat.

If we're talking the literal peak of their powers, Horus ranks 1 and Magnus 2, because at the peak of his powers, Horus had 4 Gods backing him up, as opposed to Magnus being able to draw off an absurdly large portion of the Warp which the Gods rule.






I would say Curze is a top 5 combatant though. He beat Corax with zero effort on Isstvan, brutalised Dorn and killed Vulkan multiple times.

@Yavva
#shrug.
Until GW finish the HH series or FW HH books we'll never know.
I certainly dont discount the possibility that Horus, backed by all 4 Chaos Gods and at the peak of his power could have stood toe to toe with the Emperor even if for a short time. And that the Emperor maybe did need that chink in the armor to vanquish him.
But you're welcome to disbelief it just as Im welcome to consider it

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back.

This pops up every so often. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Emperor was somehow holding back hoping Horus would see the errors of his ways. Horus was able to stand toe to toe with the single most powerful entity in the Galaxy at the time. Whether they were doing Queensbury rules or firing pewpew lasers at each other is irrelevant. In addition depending on which version of the fluff GW decide to make cannon, the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus in the end was because either a Custodian or Olius opened a chink in his armor.
There is no other Primarch that could have stood against that. Magus psychically perhaps but I believe Horus had eclipsed him at that point too having all 4 chaos Gods backing him.

Do you actually believe that horse manure about the chink in the armor? That is...... less than likely. The heroic custodes as you put it is more like imperial propaganda to make every insignificant man out of trillions that sacrifices their life on the battlefield think that their individual sacrifice could amount to something. To further add there is also a fluff writing crediting that stupid chink in armor theory to Sanguinius. To humor the chink in armor idea lets say that for arguments sake the Emperor mightiest of men who smacks around the Chaos Gods keeping them at bay in the warp over 10,000 years after his actual demise through sheer willpower and manliness needed a chink in Horus' "armor" to beat him. This would mean that they would have to "chink" his daemonic protection not his physical armor. The Emperor blamed his soul not his body so breaking his armor doesn't amount to anything. That being said the Custodes or whatever would have to be a pretty powerful psyker and gotten Horus off guard which could never happen because he could psychically sense the custodes. The more likely answer being Sanguinius could have pulled off this "chink" but even still it is hardly likely the Emperor needed that. Fact is that the Emperor probably did want to save 1 of his 20 genetic demigod experiments that actually succeeded (also he had already lost 2 at this point) so he was testing to see if there was any hope for Horus. It is true that Horus probably would have demolished him had he let his guard down completely but in a "toe to toe" no holds barred match big E would have blamed Horus so fast and so hard that he would have never even existed. I don't deny this would have taken no less than his full power, but Horus couldn't win unless the man as stated above who still keeps the entire god damn warp at bay for the past 10,000 years wasn't as powerful as they say he is.

P.S.
The Emperor did do it that fast when ass wipe Horus was distracted by a Custodes or if you believe certain texts an imperial soldier (what an ass) thinking he had bested the greatest psyker period in single combat.

If you take the chink in the armour to mean that Custodes or the immortal guardsman, it could refer to a metaphorical chink where Horus' focus was distracted, allowing the Emperor to land the telling blow.

Can't remember which hh book it is (think it's scars) but aren't a bunch of primarchs sitting around a table having this exact same discussion?

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
Can't remember which hh book it is (think it's scars) but aren't a bunch of primarchs sitting around a table having this exact same discussion?

were they passing a joint around too?

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

Horus lacks any feats that make him impressive. We don't know if there was an actual contest between him and the Emperor or if the Emperor was just holding back.

This pops up every so often. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Emperor was somehow holding back hoping Horus would see the errors of his ways. Horus was able to stand toe to toe with the single most powerful entity in the Galaxy at the time. Whether they were doing Queensbury rules or firing pewpew lasers at each other is irrelevant. In addition depending on which version of the fluff GW decide to make cannon, the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus in the end was because either a Custodian or Olius opened a chink in his armor.
There is no other Primarch that could have stood against that. Magus psychically perhaps but I believe Horus had eclipsed him at that point too having all 4 chaos Gods backing him.

Do you actually believe that horse manure about the chink in the armor? That is...... less than likely. The heroic custodes as you put it is more like imperial propaganda to make every insignificant man out of trillions that sacrifices their life on the battlefield think that their individual sacrifice could amount to something. To further add there is also a fluff writing crediting that stupid chink in armor theory to Sanguinius. To humor the chink in armor idea lets say that for arguments sake the Emperor mightiest of men who smacks around the Chaos Gods keeping them at bay in the warp over 10,000 years after his actual demise through sheer willpower and manliness needed a chink in Horus' "armor" to beat him. This would mean that they would have to "chink" his daemonic protection not his physical armor. The Emperor blamed his soul not his body so breaking his armor doesn't amount to anything. That being said the Custodes or whatever would have to be a pretty powerful psyker and gotten Horus off guard which could never happen because he could psychically sense the custodes. The more likely answer being Sanguinius could have pulled off this "chink" but even still it is hardly likely the Emperor needed that. Fact is that the Emperor probably did want to save 1 of his 20 genetic demigod experiments that actually succeeded (also he had already lost 2 at this point) so he was testing to see if there was any hope for Horus. It is true that Horus probably would have demolished him had he let his guard down completely but in a "toe to toe" no holds barred match big E would have blamed Horus so fast and so hard that he would have never even existed. I don't deny this would have taken no less than his full power, but Horus couldn't win unless the man as stated above who still keeps the entire god damn warp at bay for the past 10,000 years wasn't as powerful as they say he is.

P.S.
The Emperor did do it that fast when ass wipe Horus was distracted by a Custodes or if you believe certain texts an imperial soldier (what an ass) thinking he had bested the greatest psyker period in single combat.

Also, the Emperor didn't even kill Horus with a physical attack. He blew him away with psychic mind bullets that completely bypass armor. No chink in armor is needed to simply destroy their soul.

but it does lead to the question, if he is capable of doing such things and truly was a diefic level creature, why did he need the legions and primarchs to begin with?

Because he couldn't be everywhere at once, and with the human webway, he couldn't lead the crusade, being too busy not telling his kids what he was doing and helping mankind with the project. Each primarch had a person, for example I've heard it mentioned Magnus was originally meant to stay on the Throne.

Out of curiosity, how powerful is Alpharius physically? There seems to be mention that he is the same size as regular marines to blend in. Would that mean he relies more on deception rather than direct application of force?

 Deadshot wrote:

I would say Curze is a top 5 combatant though. He beat Corax with zero effort on Isstvan, brutalised Dorn and killed Vulkan multiple times.

At the peak of his power, he also held his own against the Lion and Girlyman- simultaneously. I don't think another Primarch has done such a thing.

Keep in mind, though, Rowboat was nearly killed by ten Alpha Legionnaires. He clearly belongs in the bottom 5, at best.

Angron could conceivably beat Russ one day and lose the next, the fluff is so vast now there are tons of instances of them winning and losing to the other.

The only example of him meeting Russ I'm aware of is the Night of the Wolf, and whilst there are arguments in who won the battle (i.e. the fight between the two legions), there is no question who won the fight; Russ ended up face down in the mud looking for his teeth. If there's another example of the two squaring off I don't recall reading it.

Alpharius really isn't that great. A human swordsman (admittedly a Lucifer Black) was able to break through his guard in a fair fight. Granted, said sword-wound did virtually nothing and then Alpharius killed him, but it doesn't speak much for his skill with a blade on a scale of the Primarchs.

The 'chink in the armour' thing - the weakness in horus' armour (and yes, it's going to be more a 'psychic protection' thing than just a gap in the plates) was opened by Sangunius. The Intervening Custodes/Army Trooper didn't open the gap, instead doing two things: first, buying the Emperor a couple of seconds so Horus didn't finish him off (as he was being quite badly stabbed prior to this) and second, convincing him not to hold back anymore.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

I would say Curze is a top 5 combatant though. He beat Corax with zero effort on Isstvan, brutalised Dorn and killed Vulkan multiple times.

At the peak of his power, he also held his own against the Lion and Girlyman- simultaneously. I don't think another Primarch has done such a thing.

Keep in mind, though, Rowboat was nearly killed by ten Alpha Legionnaires. He clearly belongs in the bottom 5, at best.

And Polux was able to stand up against Curze and wound him, meaning that Polux is better than most Primarchs

As time has progressed i've begun to realise that there isn't really any teliing as to who is the best Primarch in fighting as a lot of it is down to writing and circumstance. In Savage Weapons Curze and the Lion fight, Curze getting the upper hand. In Prince of Crows Curze has been put into a coma by the Lion. In Unremebered Empire Curze is able to take on both the Lion and Guilliman, in Betrayer Guilliman is able to take on both Angron and Lorgar. So what does this mean if Angron is top tier? It's likely that Angron is the best combatant but I don't think that means he would win in every fight.

Circumstance, Guilliman was unarmoured and attacked in his own home. Dorn was assaulted unawares and unarmoured. Fulgrim was assaulted in a meeting by Perturabo. Was the fight between Angron and Russ a full blown duel, we know that Russ had a point to make so was he fighting to kill Angron. Fulgrim was beaten by Ferrus until the Daemon took over, is that a victory for Fulgrim or for the Daemon.

Corax reflects in Ravens Flight that only Horus and Sanguinius could beat Angron, but then in Deliverance Lost thinks that he isn't worried about Angron. He also says how he and Horus were evenly matched in their sparing matches. So if only Horus and Sanguinius can beat Angron, and Corax can hold his own with Horus, that must mean that he can also take on Angron. Do we also take confidence into account, Dorn goes out to take on Horus after Istvaan as does Russ, they don't seem too concerned that they won't be able to deal with Horus. Scars has been mentioned. I think it is Mortarion thinking on who would win in a sword fight between Sanguinius and Fulgrim, recognising that their skill is the best, but then the Khan says to Fulgrim that he will beat him. Do we take this as fact or just bravado?

Without a list of who faced who and who did what it's pretty difficult to determine who is the best fighter, we just do not have enough about their individual feats or reports on their prowess to really formulate any form of order. Sure we can use what we have, but it's not so straight forward, as Polux is the answer

locarno24 wrote:

Alpharius really isn't that great. A human swordsman (admittedly a Lucifer Black) was able to break through his guard in a fair fight. Granted, said sword-wound did virtually nothing and then Alpharius killed him, but it doesn't speak much for his skill with a blade on a scale of the Primarchs.

Was it Alpharius though or was it Ingo, Herzog or Sheed?

locarno24 wrote:

The 'chink in the armour' thing - the weakness in horus' armour (and yes, it's going to be more a 'psychic protection' thing than just a gap in the plates) was opened by Sangunius. The Intervening Custodes/Army Trooper didn't open the gap, instead doing two things: first, buying the Emperor a couple of seconds so Horus didn't finish him off (as he was being quite badly stabbed prior to this) and second, convincing him not to hold back anymore.

Well it could be either an actual chink in his armour or a chink in his psyche or both maybe

Fear to Tread: P443
And so again, in the halls of the Vengeful Spirit, as Sanguinius struck out at his brother, cutting a fearsome crack in the Warmaster's nigh impregnable armour. But it was not enough, and the Angel's great red blade broke.

The Outcast Dead: P443
Bloody tears on golden features, a necessary death, the most infinitesimal crack in the most impregnable armour.

And from 2nd Edition Wargear

The Death of Sanguinus

As he flew he spotted a damaged link of armour on the Warmaster's neck, and Sanguinius stabbed out with all his remaining strength. His blade lodged at once in the Warmaster's armour. Horus screamed more with anger than with pain, and reached out to strike the winged Primarch. Steel talons dripping with plasmic energy closed upon the winged Angel of Baal. According to some versions of the tale it was this wound that Sanguinius struck which opened a chink through the armour of Horus, enabling the Emperor to slay his enemy.