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It seems inevitable that all the 6E codexes will be getting a 7E revamp, so it got me thinking about Chaos Daemons. Most of the 7E Codexes seem to temper what ever was above average good in the last codex, while buffing what was underperforming. Of course I'm sure we can expect new relics, revamped warlord traits, and some new formations, but I can't think of anything abover average enough to need a nerf.

Room for Improvement

Furies - Sure they are jump troops, and Daemonic Intability prevents them from breaking from shooting attacks, but they lack any ranged attacks of their own and their Ld 2 + Daemonic Instability pretty much ensures they don't last more a single assault phase, two if your lucky.

Warp Storm Table - I don't hate it, but I wish they would simplify it. Even if they just made the blast marker size and damage the same between them, it would speed things up

Mark of Tzeentch - Psychic tests don't revolve around Leadership, so yeah, this should change

Warpflame - Make psychic test, roll to deny the witch, roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save, make toughness save, figure out how to mark the enemy unit you now gave FNP to. Tzeentch Chaos sorcerers don't worry about giving thier foes FNP with each attack, it just seems like an unneccesary complication and <sarcasm>fun</sarcasm>

What do you think will change in the next incarnation of the codex ?

Personally, I'm really hoping the randomized gifts go away. I don't play chaos, and my inability to reflect custom fluff through my choice of wargear is one of the main reasons why. Having random wargear as part of a formation would be fine (as it potentially gives you greater-than-normal effects for the points you spend," but currently, the random gifts and such are just a frustration that takes up pre-game time.

The whole FNP thing on warpflame just needs to go away. It's frustrating to keep track of, frustrating when it happens, and just plain frustrating. Tzeentch is a god of clever plans, mutation, and magic. Not lol-randumb.

I want the warp storm table to either go away or become a rule for a specific detachment/formation that features 3 or more chaos gods. Nurgle should be able to go to a planet and do Nurgle stuff without Tzeentch making his troops explode every few seconds.

Instead of the warp storm table, I'd like to see god-specific tables (possibly tied to formation or detachments) that reflect the nature of the gods. Sort of like the blood tithe rules for Khorne Daemonkin (which I love). So for instance, Nurgle might be able to put "infection tokens" on 1d3 enemy units before the game, and each turn, the unit has to make a toughness test or take a wound and put an additional infection token on either its own unit or another unit within X inches. Or maybe Nurgle gets something like a Power From Pain table as his corruption grows giving units near your warlord cover saves from flies, upping their toughness, turning nearby terrain into dangerous terrain, etc. I could see Slaanesh borrowing from Power From Pain or doing something involving challenges. Tzeentch could be doing magical rituals near objectives or by sacrificng his own units and making psychic tests. That sort of thing. Something that drips with the flavor of your god of choice rather than just being a series of annoying explosions that take up time to resolve.

Furies just need to not suffer so seriously from daemonic instability. They would be a reasonably good overwatch eater or tarpit unit if it were gone.

Not a huge fan of daemonic instability. It's neat, but not entirely necessary. Plus, being able to join heralds to CSM units or CSM characters to daemon squads would be fun.

I'd like more distinction between the units of a given god, especially Slaanesh and Khorne. Slaanesh feels like she basically just offers a half dozen varieties of high initiative and rending. Khorne is just variations on melee. I know those are kind of their thing, but it makes choosing between daemonettes and seekers or seekers and fiends really dull. Plus, it makes it feel like a hindrance to go monogod as undivided lets you get a better mix of abilities. All of a given chaos god's units should feel like they fit that chaos god, but they shouldn't feel like the same unit.

I'd be pretty irritated if the random tables that carried the potential to screw the Daemon player went away. (They should be balanced with equally good bennies, of course.)

Tzeentch may not be the god of 'lol-randumb' but he is certainly the god of occasionally deciding he's had enough of his chosen boys and withdrawing his power to let them get their collective fannies handed to them.

The Chaos gods are unbelievably powerful. They are also cruel, capricious, and utterly unreliable. I like both the power and the unreliability being represented in their rules. I'd like to expand into a Slaanesh army down the road, but if they removed the randomness I would reconsider the idea.

On a completely self-serving note, I hope they don't give Daemons the actual Fearless rule. As a Dark Eldar player, them lacking the rule benefits me. However, if the Khorne supplement is anything to go by, they probably will.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'd be pretty irritated if the random tables that carried the potential to screw the Daemon player went away. (They should be balanced with equally good bennies, of course.)

Tzeentch may not be the god of 'lol-randumb' but he is certainly the god of occasionally deciding he's had enough of his chosen boys and withdrawing his power to let them get their collective fannies handed to them.

The Chaos gods are unbelievably powerful. They are also cruel, capricious, and utterly unreliable. I like both the power and the unreliability being represented in their rules. I'd like to expand into a Slaanesh army down the road, but if they removed the randomness I would reconsider the idea.

On a completely self-serving note, I hope they don't give Daemons the actual Fearless rule. As a Dark Eldar player, them lacking the rule benefits me. However, if the Khorne supplement is anything to go by, they probably will.

Yep. I like the random stuff of the Warp Storm, but I'd like more benefits than negatives. I've had it screw me over too many times.

I'd like to see 4 seperate detachments 1 for each god that can only take those gods units. this would mean if you wanted a Khrone troops, you needed a Khorneite HQ.


this would prevent silly things like a army of blood letters lead by a Great unclean one

1. Fix the current Psychic insanity we're known for...
- Heralds of Nurgle & Slaanesh should be restricted to only Mastery Lv1 as an upgrade, while Tzerhalds come as Lv1's, with the ability to buy Lv2 as an upgrade.
- Pink Horrors are always Lv1's, but can instead cast & dispel as a higher Lv psyker dependant on how many models are in the unit. (ie: 9 or less = Lv1. 10 - 15 = Lv2. 16+ = Lv3) Also, Horrors need to be limited to Lore of Tzeentch only - no more Malefic!
- Princes should be restricted to the same lores as the Greaters & Heralds of their respective Gods, just like in Fantasy.
- Tzeentch gains Pyromancy on top of Tzeentch & Divination. All Gods can access Malefic naturally.
- All 3 of the God lores get fleshed out into a proper 6 + Primaris powers!!

2. Swap the default Lesser & Greater weapons for Tzeentch, as the LoC is simply too silly-good with 'uber protection and super cheap access to S8/ap2 attacks at initiative in combat... I'm to the point that I don't even bring him out anymore in games under 1850pts, as he tends to pretty much just walk through half an army before finally being dragged down.

3. Keep the Warpstorm Table please!!
I seriously love this thing in 40k! If people think it's dumb/lolrandom! and pointless, they should go try out the Fantasy version to see what a true nightmare looks like...

4. Add more God-specific wargear.
While I love the way the random Gifts work, (again, if you want to see what truly 'lolsrandom' stupid tables look like, go play Fantasy Daemons!), I'd love to see a few more God-specific wargear options, such as the ability to buy a Collar of Khorne on Khorne Heralds, or a Spell Familiar on Tzheralds, etc...
As well, I'd like to see Khorne especially, and Nurgle gain the options to give certain units armour of some form... Bloodletters & Bloodcrushers for example should have the option to buy Armour of Khorne for a 4+ save. ('Crushers should ideally get a 3+ save due to their added mount) Likewise Nurgle characters & Drones being able to buy a 4+ save for added pts.

5. Keep Warpflame. It's only dumb if you don't know what proper target priority is and how to focus fire. Tzeentch has little trouble forcing Psychic powers through against most armies, and of the other Psychic heavy armies, both Eldar are predominantly a measly T3. (meaning an Exalted Locus Tzherald can ID them with Flickering Fire)

I really like GW to fix Bloodcrushers.

Wyldhunt wrote:Personally, I'm really hoping the randomized gifts go away.... the random gifts and such are just a frustration that takes up pre-game time.

I don't mind the random, but I agree it's another time consuming step in the pre-game.

The whole FNP thing on warpflame just needs to go away. It's frustrating to keep track of, frustrating when it happens, and just plain frustrating. Tzeentch is a god of clever plans, mutation, and magic. Not lol-randumb

.
Again I agree, it's just annoying to have another minor thing to keep track of. It would be easier that they just heal a wound if they past the Toughness test.

I want the warp storm table to either go away or become a rule for a specific detachment/formation that features 3 or more chaos gods. Nurgle should be able to go to a planet and do Nurgle stuff without Tzeentch making his troops explode every few seconds.

It would be interesting if there were mono detachments that ignored the Warp Storm table.

Instead of the warp storm table, I'd like to see god-specific tables (possibly tied to formation or detachments) that reflect the nature of the gods. Sort of like the blood tithe rules for Khorne Daemonkin (which I love).

I'd be all for detachments with cool rules like that.

Furies just need to not suffer so seriously from daemonic instability. They would be a reasonably good overwatch eater or tarpit unit if it were gone.

They would probably be perfect with fearless instead of daemonic instability

Not a huge fan of daemonic instability. It's neat, but not entirely necessary. Plus, being able to join heralds to CSM units or CSM characters to daemon squads would be fun.

I kind of like that it keeps CSM from leading Daemon units. Keeps people from cherry picking the best and mixing them at that level.

I'd like more distinction between the units of a given god, especially Slaanesh and Khorne. Slaanesh feels like she basically just offers a half dozen varieties of high initiative and rending. Khorne is just variations on melee. I know those are kind of their thing, but it makes choosing between daemonettes and seekers or seekers and fiends really dull. Plus, it makes it feel like a hindrance to go monogod as undivided lets you get a better mix of abilities. All of a given chaos god's units should feel like they fit that chaos god, but they shouldn't feel like the same unit.

While I wouldn't object getting new abilities, I think they all serve a different enough purpose.
Daemonettes are cheap
Seekers are Faster
Fiends are in need of a better special ability

Jimsolo wrote:I'd be pretty irritated if the random tables that carried the potential to screw the Daemon player went away. (They should be balanced with equally good bennies, of course.)

I like the Warp Storm table. Sure it's cost me a few wounds here and there, but when it summons you a fresh group of daemons, it's priceless.

Last week the warp storm brought me a groupd of daemonettes, who deepstruck intot he heart of the enemy army. The Chaos gods further showing their favor allowed them a direct hit on placement. The opponent was so appauled he spent an inordinate amount of firepower to cleanse them off the board on his turn. On my turn the Chaos Gods chose to spite him and gifted me with another unit of Daemonettes that I managed to place in the same spot, with only 3 inches of scatter. Muahahahaha

On a completely self-serving note, I hope they don't give Daemons the actual Fearless rule... However, if the Khorne supplement is anything to go by, they probably will.

I can see why they did it in the Khorne Daemonkin codex, but I agree that I hope Daemonic Instability doesn't get replaced with a vanilla fearless, simply for sake of dumbing it down.

BrianDavion wrote:I'd like to see 4 seperate detachments 1 for each god that can only take those gods units. this would mean if you wanted a Khrone troops, you needed a Khorneite HQ.
this would prevent silly things like a army of blood letters lead by a Great unclean one

For a formation special rule, I could completely see it, but as a general army rule it would be rather restictive.

Experiment 626 wrote:1. Fix the current Psychic insanity we're known for...

The Psychic phase it what Daemons have going for them, and now they aren't even the best at it. Eldar are better psykers, and Chaos Marines are no slouches either.

4. Add more God-specific wargear.

I could see more God Specific Relics being added, especially if the random rewards become not random.

5. Keep Warpflame. It's only dumb if you don't know what proper target priority is and how to focus fire.

Warpflame giving Feel No Pain makes me want to shoot my Greater Daemons with it, and is enough to discourage me from wanting to use it all if I don't think I can completely overwhelm a unit with the attack. Against Space Marines, who I fight frequently, it's a 66% of gving them FNP or, even worse, an improved Feel No Pain. It makes Maelific a better choice over change, most of the time.

undertow wrote:I really like GW to fix Bloodcrushers.

Could you expand on that ?

Give them back T5 and an armor save of at least 4+, not asking for a 3+ save, but 4+ for something made out off Brass, Iron and lava, thats a minimum...

Also give them chains and whips, something that they can shoot at 12" S5 ap4 assault 2 shred.

And a fething real alternate to Axes of Khorne to ge to Higher T or AV models.

I kind of like that it keeps CSM from leading Daemon units. Keeps people from cherry picking the best and mixing them at that level.

Because it's not like you see them together in the fluff at all right? But you'll see Haemonculus leading Eldar because reasons.

All the weird, nonsensical things in the codex such as Bloodletters being T3 with a 6+ armour save that serves literally no purpose can be traced back to one thing:

All daemons have the same basic statline in both games, and fantasy is clearly prioritised higher.

Seems superficially nice from a fluffy perspective, but frankly decoupling the stats would make a lot of things run smoother.

Weird feeling about losing Fateweaver in a 7th edition Codex.

Was talking with a game designer on another board who was strongly implying he was involved in the design process for GW. He was going off about Fateweaver being an autoinclude in Daemon lists and how he needs to go away.

Absolutely take this with a grain of salt.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Weird feeling about losing Fateweaver in a 7th edition Codex.

Was talking with a game designer on another board who was strongly implying he was involved in the design process for GW. He was going off about Fateweaver being an autoinclude in Daemon lists and how he needs to go away.

Absolutely take this with a grain of salt.

Of course, it's not like GW cares about auto-includes because it makes them money, they just have to make more auto-include models.

Seriously, following curent GW logic he'll probably get a point reduction and a $115 plastic model that doulbes as the new Lord of Change.

 adamsouza wrote:

undertow wrote:I really like GW to fix Bloodcrushers.

Could you expand on that ?

What this guy said:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Give them back T5 and an armor save of at least 4+, not asking for a 3+ save, but 4+ for something made out off Brass, Iron and lava, thats a minimum...

Also give them chains and whips, something that they can shoot at 12" S5 ap4 assault 2 shred.

And a fething real alternate to Axes of Khorne to ge to Higher T or AV models.

They were 40 points for a 2W T5 Infantry model with eternal warrior and a 3+ armor save. They became 45 point 3W T4 Cavalry models with a 6+ armor save and a 5++ invul. That extra wound is next to useless with 5+ saves and T4, getting doubled out by missile launchers and melta. Every time I've fielded Bloodcrushers since the new codex I've been disappointed. I've got 9 painted, fully magnetized 'crushers sitting in my case that haven't hit the table in over a year.

Make Tzeentch's psychic powers not comically terrible hopefully.

I was very pleased with the 6ed Daemons codex. In terms of balance all i'd wish for is for the weaker stuff to be brought up to scratch.

Off the top of my head:

Elites section, the whole thing needs a doing over.
Slaanesh chariots, they under perform and are competing in the two most contested slots.
Daemon princes could do with a points drop, particularly khorne ones.
Something to make bloodletters viable.

With regards to non balance issues - remove the warp table, remove the random gifts, remove any other random table I forgot about.
Nobody has time and patience for all those charts.

1) Warpflame granting FnP needs to go away.

2) Daemonic instability needs to go away.

3) Greater daemons unlocking princes in HS needs to go away. They should always be available even if your HQ is only a herald of a different god.

4) Tzeentch psychic tests needs to be fixed/updated to 7e psychic rules.

5) Useless units like furies, nurgle beasts, fiends, bloodcrushers, flamers of tzeentch, and pretty much all the paper chariots need a serious revamp or role change. These units in their current rules are just not a threat or worth it compared to basic troops and monstrous creatures.

6) Something better than Slaanesh lash princes or Soulgrinders for AA shooting. Preferably not another mech daemon.

7) Make icons free in units or decrease their cost by half.

8) Exalted Flamer heralds need relentless off of their chariots. A 50 point 3 shot lascannon or ap3 flamer would be great in a unit of horrors...if it didn't have to snapfire from moving. The FAQ entry added nothing of use.

9) Khorne units should get access to a minimum 4+ scaly skin armor save built in or pay extra points...just need armor saves. If no armor saves then give them assault grenades so the few that survive overwatch can actually do something in assault.

10) A daemonic Lord of War that isn't a Lord of Skulls.

11) A daemonic fortification/summoning portal would be nice.

Make the Pink Horrors have a natural shooting attack instead of relying on psychic powers to do anything.

Boost Bloodcrushers back to their previous levels (as has already been suggested).

Modify the Warp Storm table so that the negative hits are not so soul crushingly bad for the CD player, because most of the positive are rather meh. ( "Oooooh, I got the daemonic possession, roll for each of your psykers!! Wait, you are playing Necrons....nevermind" )

While I would like to see the more material gifts (such as 3+ armour, the ranged attacks) be standard purchases, I'd like some of the more special rule gifts to remain on a chart. A mix of both styles.

Make the chariots a bit more durable. Most of them can be snuffed out with a stiff breeze and a stern look.

Bring back the Chaos Numbers for unit sizes, at least the basic troops.

Fix the Daemon of Tzeentch rule so that its useful. Heck, Eldar get 3+ psychic test rolls, why can't the manifestations of the master of sorcery???

 D6Damager wrote:
1) Warpflame granting FnP needs to go away.

No it doesn't. Proper target selection and focusing your firepower properly pretty much negates any negatives associated with Warpflame.
If you're dumb enough to spread your Warpflame across multiple units each turn, while only killing 1-3 grunts, you deserve to face an entire army of 4+ or better FnP saves... The only 2 armies currently giving my mono Tzeentch army fits are Grey Knights, (due to amazing psychic defenses), and Decurion Necrons, (who are just too damn resilient to everything bar Str.D!)

All Tzeentch needs is a fully fleshed out spell lore with 6 spells + Primaris power.

 D6Damager wrote:
2) Daemonic instability needs to go away.

No.
Daemonic Instability is one of the most basic defining traits of our army. Removing it would be akin to removing 'And They Shall Know No Fear' from loyalist marines!

 D6Damager wrote:
3) Greater daemons unlocking princes in HS needs to go away. They should always be available even if your HQ is only a herald of a different god.

Considering how you can now take as many CAD's/Formations and such now, just keep them as HQ's. Our Heavy Support section is too cluttered as it is.

 D6Damager wrote:
4) Tzeentch psychic tests needs to be fixed/updated to 7e psychic rules.

Agreed.

 D6Damager wrote:
5) Useless units like furies, nurgle beasts, fiends, bloodcrushers, flamers of tzeentch, and pretty much all the paper chariots need a serious revamp or role change. These units in their current rules are just not a threat or worth it compared to basic troops and monstrous creatures.

None of those units are "useless" bar the Slaany Chariots.

Flamers for example are gross in large squads. That many templates will kill most anything that isn't T5 and/or multi-wound. Even Termies are vulnerable to being slapped by 6-7+ templates in one go.
Beasts are solid tarpitters, akin to Chaos Spawn. Their ability to counter assault during your opponent's turn is also pure hilarity.
Fiends are savage when led by a mounted Slaherald - especially with the Exalted Locus in play.
Furies are nice cheap hordes of bolter fodder and/or soaking up Overwatch fire. They're also decent chaff cleaners who can readily threaten other hordes such as large Gaunt mobs/Ork Boyz, etc...
'Crushers definitely could do with at least a 4+ save, but they're still effective, especially when led by Karanak for Scouting shenanigans.

Burny Chariots are actually decently threatening now that the Exalt has gained Relentless, and they're still cheap enough that you don't fret over losing it.

 D6Damager wrote:
6) Something better than Slaanesh lash princes or Soulgrinders for AA shooting. Preferably not another mech daemon.

Actually, I'd love to see us gain a Helldrake equivalent! More "true" Daemon Engines for us instead of having to always pay the 'Cultist + Sorc' tax.

 D6Damager wrote:
7) Make icons free in units or decrease their cost by half.

The only costing issues with Icons is the upgraded versions...

 D6Damager wrote:
8) Exalted Flamer heralds need relentless off of their chariots. A 50 point 3 shot lascannon or ap3 flamer would be great in a unit of horrors...if it didn't have to snapfire from moving. The FAQ entry added nothing of use.

For only 50pts they're frankly an absolute steal. Horrors don't (and shouldn't!) be moving every single turn as they're solid Obsec campers. Their template shot is absolutely brutal when combo'ed alongside a Blasted Standard for a painful Overwatch reaction...

 D6Damager wrote:
9) Khorne units should get access to a minimum 4+ scaly skin armor save built in or pay extra points...just need armor saves. If no armor saves then give them assault grenades so the few that survive overwatch can actually do something in assault.

Agreed. Being able to pay something like +5pts/model to give them an 'Armour of Khorne' upgrade for a 4+ save is badly needed here... it would also help to further differenciate them from Daemonettes.

 D6Damager wrote:
10) A daemonic Lord of War that isn't a Lord of Skulls.

I have a feeling that the LoW slot/s in our army are going to be taken by the named Greater Daemons...

 D6Damager wrote:
11) A daemonic fortification/summoning portal would be nice.

Buff the Portalglyph into a full on unit in it's own right, ala Necron Pylon would be my vote...

Experiment 626 wrote:
The only 2 armies currently giving my mono Tzeentch army fits are Grey Knights, (due to amazing psychic defenses), and Decurion Necrons, (who are just too damn resilient to everything bar Str.D!)

I take it you don't face off against Space Marines, or Blood Angels, often ?

Flames of Tzeentch make Flickering Fire a crap power.

Flickering Fire Assault 2d6 averages us about 6 hits, BS 3 means 50% of those hit for 3, S5 vs T4 wounds 66% for 2 wounds.
Power Armor Save 66% of the time for 1.32 wounds FNP ignores 33% of those for .87 wounds

Flickering Fire does .66 wounds per assault die per vs Powered Armor Marines
1WC 2d6 = 1.32 wounds
2WC 3d6 = 2 wounds
3WC 4d6 = 2.64 wounds

Should they have FNP (Apothacary, Sanguinary Priest, Death Company. etc..)
2d6 = .87 wounds
3d6 = 1.31 wounds
4d6 = 1.74 wounds

Tzeentch's Firestorm is never going to hit a significant amount of targets, and AP- and average STR of 4 ensure survival rates better than flickering fire

Bolt of Change has some Serios AP2, an average S7 wounding on 2+, but it's a beam, so unless they are lined up just right, you are not going to hit many.

Infernal Gateway average S7 wounding on a 2+, AP1 forcing them to use invulnerables, but hitting maybe 4 models if they are packed tightly together, if it doesn't scatter off target

You are not wiping out a 10 man tactical squad without 3 or more castings, each time giving them a 66% chance to get an improved FNP and each time they do it makes them harder to kill.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:
3) Greater daemons unlocking princes in HS needs to go away. They should always be available even if your HQ is only a herald of a different god.

Considering how you can now take as many CAD's/Formations and such now, just keep them as HQ's. Our Heavy Support section is too cluttered as it is.

I couldn't disagree with you more. The HQ section is the crowded slot, not HQ. Heavy Support is full of crappy chariots, with Soul Grinders really being the only solid choice IMO. So if by 'cluttered' you mean 'full of stuff no one would really take', then yes it might be cluttered. Princes should be just HS without requiring an unlock.

Not only that but many tournament formats don't allow as many CADs or Formations as you'd like. You get two, maybe three choices.

 adamsouza wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
The only 2 armies currently giving my mono Tzeentch army fits are Grey Knights, (due to amazing psychic defenses), and Decurion Necrons, (who are just too damn resilient to everything bar Str.D!)

I take it you don't face off against Space Marines, or Blood Angels, often ?

Flames of Tzeentch make Flickering Fire a crap power.

Flickering Fire Assault 2d6 averages us about 6 hits, BS 3 means 50% of those hit for 3, S5 vs T4 wounds 66% for 2 wounds.
Power Armor Save 66% of the time for 1.32 wounds FNP ignores 33% of those for .87 wounds

Flickering Fire does .66 wounds per assault die per vs Powered Armor Marines
1WC 2d6 = 1.32 wounds
2WC 3d6 = 2 wounds
3WC 4d6 = 2.64 wounds

Should they have FNP (Apothacary, Sanguinary Priest, Death Company. etc..)
2d6 = .87 wounds
3d6 = 1.31 wounds
4d6 = 1.74 wounds

Tzeentch's Firestorm is never going to hit a significant amount of targets, and AP- and average STR of 4 ensure survival rates better than flickering fire

Bolt of Change has some Serios AP2, an average S7 wounding on 2+, but it's a beam, so unless they are lined up just right, you are not going to hit many.

Infernal Gateway average S7 wounding on a 2+, AP1 forcing them to use invulnerables, but hitting maybe 4 models if they are packed tightly together, if it doesn't scatter off target

I normally cast the WC2 version of Flickering Fire with a Tzherald, giving me 3D6 shots at BS4. Horrors nowadays are much better off aiming for either Bolt or Gateway, or else just plumping for Malefic (while it's still and option!)
If it's a big squad, (such as a 10 man MEQ unit), then Prescience is necessary, or else hit them first with either Flamers or Screamer fly-bys. Or else throw multiple Flickering Fires at that same unit. (again, I only use Tzheralds for Flickering Fire, due to their better BS)
Locus of Conjuration also makes Flickering Fire S6 - enough to ID T3 and therefor bypass any FnP they might have, while it wounds T4 on 2's, helping to force more wounds through simple weight of dice. Handily, it also boosts Bolt up to average S8, meaning that T4 also gets no FnP benefits from those wounds.

It's not nearly as hard as it sounds. Again, only Grey Knights, Eldar & potentially other Daemon lists have the psychic defenses to really make Tzeentch magic poor. You simply can't try and whittle down 3-4+ squads a turn with Warpflame attacks like you can with 'normal' shooting.
Focus down on a single unit until it's only left with 1-3 grunts. 2-3 Tactical Marines for example with a 6+ FnP is pointless. Next turn, they'll get wiped out by a stiff breeze.
2+ saves are more troublesome, (hence why I love that Horrors can now cast Gateway), and anything that's T5 and/or multi-wound should simply never be targeted by Warpflame attacks. (handily enough, a Boomstick LoC is quite adept at clubbing things to death!)

 adamsouza wrote:
You are not wiping out a 10 man tactical squad without 3 or more castings, each time giving them a 66% chance to get an improved FNP and each time they do it makes them harder to kill.

That's not how Warpflame works...

A unit that suffers any wounds from a Warpflame attack only ever takes one test per phase. So yes, you can shoot a 10 man Tac squad first with 2-3+ castings of Flickering Fire. They take only 1 test at the end of the Daemon player's Psychic phase.
Likewise, you could shoot a 5 man Termie squad with a bunch of Flamers, then a pair of Exalted Flamers. If any survive, they take only 1 Warpflame test at the end of the Shooting phase.

Also keep in mind you can achieve some great things with a Bio Prince casting Enfeeble on your intended target first... -1T is huge when it comes to Warpflame based attacks.
Combined with Locus of Conjuration, you can actually ID multi-wound T4 stuff AND also deny any FnP rolls they might have had.

 undertow wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:
3) Greater daemons unlocking princes in HS needs to go away. They should always be available even if your HQ is only a herald of a different god.

Considering how you can now take as many CAD's/Formations and such now, just keep them as HQ's. Our Heavy Support section is too cluttered as it is.

I couldn't disagree with you more. The HQ section is the crowded slot, not HQ. Heavy Support is full of crappy chariots, with Soul Grinders really being the only solid choice IMO. So if by 'cluttered' you mean 'full of stuff no one would really take', then yes it might be cluttered. Princes should be just HS without requiring an unlock.

Not only that but many tournament formats don't allow as many CADs or Formations as you'd like. You get two, maybe three choices.

I keep forgetting that Drones are Fast Attack in 40k vs. Rare in Fantasy...

Still, Grinders are ace and can readily be fielded in pairs, Skull Cannons aren't bad thanks to long range and their ability to help assaulting into cover, and Burning Chariots are a PITA now that the rider has Relentless.

The only things in Heavy that really are crap are the Slaany chariots... everything else is definitely 'useable', even if it's not 'optimal for Tournament play'.

I did miss that they only test once per phase, that portion of it is not as bad as I thought.

Flickering Fire Assault 3d6 averages 10.5 hits, BS 4 means 66% of those hit for 6.93, S5 vs T4 wounds 66% for 4.57 wounds.
Power Armor Save 66% of the time for 1.5 wounds FNP ignores 33% of those for .99 wounds

Average 1-2 wounds is still not that impressive.

It's not great, not even particularly good, you're just making Lemondae with a lemon, throwing it their eyes and then killing them with the rest of your amy while the lemonade is stinging their eyes

It is basically only good for finishing units on their last leg.

 adamsouza wrote:
I did miss that they only test once per phase, that portion of it is not as bad as I thought.

Flickering Fire Assault 3d6 averages 10.5 hits, BS 4 means 66% of those hit for 6.93, S5 vs T4 wounds 66% for 4.57 wounds.
Power Armor Save 66% of the time for 1.5 wounds FNP ignores 33% of those for .99 wounds

Average 1-2 wounds is still not that impressive.

It's not great, not even particularly good, you're just making Lemondae with a lemon, throwing it their eyes and then killing them with the rest of your amy while the lemonade is stinging their eyes

It is basically only good for finishing units on their last leg.

I rarely cast Flickering Fire with Horrors. I generally cast it using Fateweaver (BS6) or a DP (BS5). I've used it to hit a single guardsman that was in LOS and had warpflame and soulburn kill the remaining 4 guys hiding around a corner. IMO, getting FF for free via Chaos Focus was solid buff for my Tzeentch army.

Relax, eldar and daemons constantly break games. You'll get your own pile of cheeze.

I can the Tzeentch ability changing from +3Ld for Pychic tests to harnessing the warp on a 3+.

Best of all, if they really wanted Flying MC's to assault next turn, this would be the oppertunity to include it in the army rules. That was a bone of contention after the Khorne Daemonkin Codex.
Please don't let that discussion derail this thread.

 koooaei wrote:
Relax, eldar and daemons constantly break games. You'll get your own pile of cheeze.

Aside form summoning goodness, which came with 7th edition, I don't think I've ever seen any anything cheese flavored about the codex.

 adamsouza wrote:
I can the Tzeentch ability changing from +3Ld for Pychic tests to harnessing the warp on a 3+.

I'm not so sure that would be the case, a large majority of people thought that with the changes to the psychic phase Tyranids "Shadow in the Warp" would change as well since it involves modifying leadership for psychic test as well, but that never happened. Then again this is GW so it is possible they just never bothered to fix it.

 Jaceevoke wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
I can the Tzeentch ability changing from +3Ld for Pychic tests to harnessing the warp on a 3+.

I'm not so sure that would be the case, a large majority of people thought that with the changes to the psychic phase Tyranids "Shadow in the Warp" would change as well since it involves modifying leadership for psychic test as well, but that never happened. Then again this is GW so it is possible they just never bothered to fix it.

Shadows in the Warp is now a -3 penalty to Ld for the entire time the enemy is in range, not just in the Psychic phase. And it was changed, as it used to be that the enemy psykers rolled 3D6 for a psychic test and periled on double sixes.

The +3 Ld bonus for Tzeentch stuff is nice, as it affects Perils rolls, but I wouldn't mind seeing it changed. I feel like Daemon casters should be immune to Perils.

 adamsouza wrote:
I can the Tzeentch ability changing from +3Ld for Pychic tests to harnessing the warp on a 3+.

Best of all, if they really wanted Flying MC's to assault next turn, this would be the oppertunity to include it in the army rules. That was a bone of contention after the Khorne Daemonkin Codex.
Please don't let that discussion derail this thread.

 koooaei wrote:
Relax, eldar and daemons constantly break games. You'll get your own pile of cheeze.

Aside form summoning goodness, which came with 7th edition, I don't think I've ever seen any anything cheese flavored about the codex.

So you kinda forgot about the screamerstar combo? the 2++ rerollable with fateweaver and someone with grimoir?

Also that army rules thing would just make it so that CD would get this, it would still bork over Daemonkin because they wouldn't have such rules.