Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Games Workshop is getting ridiculous with the Codex releases. I’m not buying new armies, because I can’t afford to buy their Codexes just to see if they’re an army I might be interested in. At least when they were Paper-back, I could flip through them in the game store to make up my mind.

I propose (purely thought exercise, since GW will never do this) the Codexes be combined into fewer volumes. My idea is that the factions within each volume would only be Battle Brothers with the factions in that same book, The rest of the Allies chart would be tweaked from Allies of Convenience down to Come the Apocalypse. Note that in this suggestion, The Allies of the Imperium are spread across three volumes, somewhat reducing some of the shenanigans that can be pulled through allying within the Imperium.

My suggestion:

The Rulebook should have all of the purchasable Fortification in it. There aren’t enough Fortifications to justify them being in a separate book when half of the rules from that book were already replaced an put in the Core Rulebook.

And whatever new game types outside of the core rules should be free downloads, not separate books that must be purchased.

All Lords of War would be in their Faction’s Codex, not in a separate book.

No Supplements!!! FAQs should be regularly updated, and everything else should be in the Codex. not spread across several releases so a player has to pay multiple times to compile the rules he needs to play a single faction.

(My logic is simplify and reduce the cost of getting into the game, so more people start playing, and stay with it longer, so GW earns more profits in the long run, and we feel like we haven't been throwing our money into the ocean)

Codex: Necrons
Single Faction Codex

Codex: Tyranids
Single Faction Codex

Codex: Orks
Single Faction Codex

Codex: Tau
Single Faction Codex

Codex: Eldar
2 Faction Codex (Eldar & Dark Eldar), Harlequins would be absorbed into the rest of the Eldar along with any other supplements.

Codex: Chaos
4 Faction Codex (one for each Chaos god). The Chaos Space Marines would work pretty much the same, except that the Daemons of the same god they serve would count as being as part of the same faction as them.

Codex: Emperor’s Gift
3 Faction Codex: (Coteaz, being Lord Inquisitor would be available to all three factions)
Ordo Malleus: Grey Knights, Skitarii*, Ordo Malleus Inquisitor.
Ordo Hereticus: Sisters of Battle (+ new units), Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor.
Ordo Xenos: Inquisition, Militarum Tempestus, maybe some new rules for more of an anti-xenos flavor

Codex: Astartes
This Codex would have a bunch of factions. Essentially every other Space Marine Chapter there is.
There would be a section for all of the units available to all of the Chapters, then each Chapter would have a section dedicated to their unique units, and presenting their Chapter Tactics that apply when they take the shared units. This would be large enough to warrant having the rules in one volume and the Fluff and pictures in another, similar to how 7th edition 40k The Rules split them up.

Codex: Imperium
Single faction Codex.
This would include the Astra Militarum and the Imperial Knights as a single faction, denoting the might of the Imperium’s normal humans.

*Skitarii would also fit in the Imperium Codex. I placed them with the Grey Knights due to how closely the Mechanicus cult works with the Grey Knights on Titan. Also because it seems apparent to me that GW deliberately left the Grey Knights unable to do certain things to make them ally with the Skitarii, who are best at those things the Grey Knights can't do, which in my mind means they should have been part of the same faction to begin with (mechanically speaking).

Are there any factions I missed? Would you support something like this?

I always thought it would make sense to combine the Dark Angels and Black Templars. Would love to see them get Crusader Squads, they would fit in perfectly with the army's knight theme.

It'd be a bit silly to see all the non-codex compliant chapters (legions) in a book that so closely sounds like that. In general I do agree with this idea but I kno that clumping all the marines in one book would be a death sentence to any individuality DA, BA,SW and others would have.

There'd be two options:
1: The book combines all the existing fluff, units and all the goodness in one single, massive 500 page volume costing 100€

2: Only the names of the chapters make the way in, making them just sidenotes in Codex: Ultrasmurfs

Because of these reasons, I don't really want this to happen in practice.

I agree that the current range of sales pamphlets, er I mean codex books need to be condensed.

However, I think the way the F.O.C works right now very restrictive., and drives the need to have separate codex books for each chapter.

I would prefer to class units by how rare they are , eg common specialist and restricted, to support multiple THEMED lists.
(How the units are classed depends on the HQ unit taken.)

I also think the fluff should be sold separately to the rules and army composition.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
It'd be a bit silly to see all the non-codex compliant chapters (legions) in a book that so closely sounds like that. In general I do agree with this idea but I kno that clumping all the marines in one book would be a death sentence to any individuality DA, BA,SW and others would have.

Why would this be the case? Most of the material in each coloured marine codex is a repeat of what is in every other marine codex. A list of the generic units and weapons, a list of the "unique" units and weapons for colour X marines, along with USR's and force org changes and restrictions on what generic units could be taken etc, then the same for colour Y and colour Z would cover all the rules and all the colours of marine in a few pages.

And since the fluff these days is terrible we just cut most of that out of the book and put it as free background material on the website along with all the pictures of examples of the studio armies.

So maybe 50 pages of rules and unit descriptions and a bit of fluff to cover all the marines in one book.

Do the same for the forces of chaos (csm plus legions and daemons), for regular, traitor and tau guard, all inquisition and "allied" forces (including sob, IK and GK), both eldars (with a bit more variation for craft world's and exodites), etc, and we are on to a winner.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
It'd be a bit silly to see all the non-codex compliant chapters (legions) in a book that so closely sounds like that. In general I do agree with this idea but I kno that clumping all the marines in one book would be a death sentence to any individuality DA, BA,SW and others would have.

Why would this be the case? Most of the material in each coloured marine codex is a repeat of what is in every other marine codex. A list of the generic units and weapons, a list of the "unique" units and weapons for colour X marines, along with USR's and force org changes and restrictions on what generic units could be taken etc, then the same for colour Y and colour Z would cover all the rules and all the colours of marine in a few pages.

Yeah, why be original and have any individuality when you can just copy the smurfs and bow down before your Spiritual Liege? If there are smurfs in the book you know it's going to be about them with barely a mention of "Oh, there are some other chapters too but they aren't as awesome as ultras. Blue marines is where it's at". This combined volume would have a massive amount of unit entries if they don't get butchered and get lost in the warp. Eg. DW knights = TH/SS guys with bathrobes, RW knights = bikers with plasmaguns, Thunderwolf Cavalry = counts as bikers, Sanguinary Guard = vanguard vets with jump packs etc. This way my DA would finally get access to grav guns but at what price...

And since the fluff these days is terrible we just cut most of that out of the book and put it as free background material on the website along with all the pictures of examples of the studio armies.[

So maybe 50 pages of rules and unit descriptions and a bit of fluff to cover all the marines in one book.

One flawed assumption here: GW giving away something for free. Not going to happen.

One flawed assumption: GW condensing codexes rather than taking them apart and selling each bit seperatelty. So why exactly are you in a discussion about condensing codexes?

GW will never do it, and if they did it would probably be a terrible mess.

You do not have to lose the flavour of an army when it is condensed into the same book as other similar armies. Not a single under coated, over powered space marine rule or unit needs to come out of the book.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
One flawed assumption: GW condensing codexes rather than taking them apart and selling each bit seperatelty. So why exactly are you in a discussion about condensing codexes?

GW will never do it, and if they did it would probably be a terrible mess.

You do not have to lose the flavour of an army when it is condensed into the same book as other similar armies. Not a single under coated, over powered space marine rule or unit needs to come out of the book.

I don't really get what you mean. At first you suggest that GW could put the background material on their website for free and then in your next post you say that they'll sell everything separately? Which one is it? I don't really know UK corporate laws but in Finland listed companies are bound by law to make profit for their owners and I'd imagine that something similar applies to UK too. Considering all the talk and reports of diminishing profit margins and the death of WHFB I don't think that they have any intention of doing charity work by giving anything for free if they think that they can make some serious money out of it.

And if it wasn't already obvious I'm in a discussion about condensing codexes because I'm strongly against it and can't see the end result being better than the current mess.

I completely agree that it'd be a mess and hope that a combined marine codex never sees the light of day. Just think about it: "Chapter 1 can take HQ units A, B and C and troops D and E. Chapter 2 doesn't like witches so they can't take B even though it's right there next to everything else. Chapter 3 thinks that the other guys got it all wrong and only use C and F to H fast attack. Experienced players would sort it out but considering that marines are at least supposedly n00b-friendly it'd be a bad call to make a player's first codex such a minefield of potential mistakes to be made.

Maybe I'm still afraid that the 5e smurfs codex happens again. It wouldn't be so bad for me personally if it's not the codex I'd be using myself but if my precious Unforgiven are clumped together with those guys I'd be pretty pissed. All the differences between the marine chapters are one major reason why I like them as an army. To make a poor religious analogy, if the Codex Astartes is the marine bible then DA, BA, SW and even GK are nonbelievers to varying degrees, some atheists and some agnostics.

Lammikkovalas wrote:Considering all the talk and reports of diminishing profit margins and the death of WHFB I don't think that they have any intention of doing charity work by giving anything for free if they think that they can make some serious money out of it.

My suggestion wasn't charity on GW's part. It has been historically proven that decreasing price by the right amount can result in an increase of total income, even with a slightly smaller profit margin on each item. Even if you look at taxes here in America. Historically, when the taxes have been lowered, people start spending more, which means more transactions are happening, which results in the government getting more money than they were before.

If anything GW owns goes under, it's because they're failing at their understanding of the consumer market. If they weren't concerned with price gauging everything they sell, and they kept the profit margins a bit smaller, other knock-off companies wouldn't be able to undercut them by a big enough margin for consumers to care, and everyone would be more likely to buy their armies new from GW.

Lammikkovalas wrote:And if it wasn't already obvious I'm in a discussion about condensing codexes because I'm strongly against it and can't see the end result being better than the current mess.

Bill1138 wrote:I propose (purely thought exercise, since GW will never do this) the Codexes be combined into fewer volumes.

My premise is "What if GW did something right." It's a though experiment that almost everyone else seems to be on board with (the handling of Space Marines being the main point in question).

Lammikkovalas wrote:I completely agree that it'd be a mess and hope that a combined marine codex never sees the light of day. Just think about it: "Chapter 1 can take HQ units A, B and C and troops D and E. Chapter 2 doesn't like witches so they can't take B even though it's right there next to everything else. Chapter 3 thinks that the other guys got it all wrong and only use C and F to H fast attack. Experienced players would sort it out but considering that marines are at least supposedly n00b-friendly it'd be a bad call to make a player's first codex such a minefield of potential mistakes to be made.

Maybe I'm still afraid that the 5e smurfs codex happens again. It wouldn't be so bad for me personally if it's not the codex I'd be using myself but if my precious Unforgiven are clumped together with those guys I'd be pretty pissed. All the differences between the marine chapters are one major reason why I like them as an army. To make a poor religious analogy, if the Codex Astartes is the marine bible then DA, BA, SW and even GK are nonbelievers to varying degrees, some atheists and some agnostics.

The suggestion I proposed would be more along the lines of:
Section 1: HQs A-E, Troops A-B, etc. (those available to all Chapters.
Section 2: (Specific Chapter) Chapter Tactics, unique HQs F-G, Troops C-D, etc
Section 3: (Specific Chapter) Chapter Tactics, unique HQs H-J, Troops E-G, etc.
etc.

I picture each section having one of those tabs cut into it like the old big dictionaries had for each new starting letter. Instead of letters on the tabs, they'd each have either an abbreviation for the Chapter, or a symbol representing them (up arrow for the Ultra-Marines, Cross for the Templars, etc) So for example, Templars would look at the generic list, and their Templar list, and there wouldn't be any Librarian in either list because they don't take Psykers.

No Space Marine Chapter would have to lose any of their unique units. If anything, the formerly solitary Codexes would likely gain a few new units out of simplicity. Alternatively, the first section could be units available to "Most" chapters, and some units could have annotations for which chapters they could not be taken for. So to repeat my example, in this case the Librarian would be in the general HQ list, since everyone else can take it, but would have an annotation saying that Black Templars cannot.

My point being, that the factions wouldn't have to lose their uniqueness just for being combined into a single volume with other factions.

As for the Fluff, GW could simply put a code in each Codex that unlocks the Fluff on their websight, so it's still only available to people who bought the books, but would save them the money of printing all of those extra pages, and the rest of us all of that wasted effort carrying around all of that content that's superfluous to the actual game mechanics.

Example, a friend of mine got the Imperial Knights Codex, and fit every rule in the entire book on side of one page printed in a nice orderly fashion. The entire Imperial Knight Codex is one page of rules, and the rest is bloat. The other Codexes have the same problem (though not quite as drastic). If just the rules were included, every Space Marine Chapter would fit in a single volume no bigger than the current Space Marine Codex.

The suggestion would lower GW's production Costs, and if they lowered the sale price by half of the difference of what they're saving, they'd still have a good profit margin, and players would have reduced costs for getting into the game, which means more people would be able to afford to get into the game, and more of them would be likely to stick with the game, resulting in more profits than before over time.

But all of this would also be dependent on them getting their act together regarding making rules that don't suck. No more nerfing the one thing in a Codex that worked. No more buffing a new Codex to being virtually unbeatable, so by the time others can take it, everything else is so easy to kill that there's no point taking anything other than massed cheap units. This is something else GW isn't going to do, but that's the joy of a thought exercise. We can take a peak at what it could have been, and for all we know, someone from GW might see it if it gets enough attention.

 Bill1138 wrote:

Lammikkovalas wrote:Considering all the talk and reports of diminishing profit margins and the death of WHFB I don't think that they have any intention of doing charity work by giving anything for free if they think that they can make some serious money out of it.

My suggestion wasn't charity on GW's part. It has been historically proven that decreasing price by the right amount can result in an increase of total income, even with a slightly smaller profit margin on each item. Even if you look at taxes here in America. Historically, when the taxes have been lowered, people start spending more, which means more transactions are happening, which results in the government getting more money than they were before.

If anything GW owns goes under, it's because they're failing at their understanding of the consumer market. If they weren't concerned with price gauging everything they sell, and they kept the profit margins a bit smaller, other knock-off companies wouldn't be able to undercut them by a big enough margin for consumers to care, and everyone would be more likely to buy their armies new from GW.

Lammikkovalas wrote:And if it wasn't already obvious I'm in a discussion about condensing codexes because I'm strongly against it and can't see the end result being better than the current mess.

Bill1138 wrote:I propose (purely thought exercise, since GW will never do this) the Codexes be combined into fewer volumes.

My premise is "What if GW did something right." It's a though experiment that almost everyone else seems to be on board with (the handling of Space Marines being the main point in question).

Lammikkovalas wrote:I completely agree that it'd be a mess and hope that a combined marine codex never sees the light of day. Just think about it: "Chapter 1 can take HQ units A, B and C and troops D and E. Chapter 2 doesn't like witches so they can't take B even though it's right there next to everything else. Chapter 3 thinks that the other guys got it all wrong and only use C and F to H fast attack. Experienced players would sort it out but considering that marines are at least supposedly n00b-friendly it'd be a bad call to make a player's first codex such a minefield of potential mistakes to be made.

Maybe I'm still afraid that the 5e smurfs codex happens again. It wouldn't be so bad for me personally if it's not the codex I'd be using myself but if my precious Unforgiven are clumped together with those guys I'd be pretty pissed. All the differences between the marine chapters are one major reason why I like them as an army. To make a poor religious analogy, if the Codex Astartes is the marine bible then DA, BA, SW and even GK are nonbelievers to varying degrees, some atheists and some agnostics.

The suggestion I proposed would be more along the lines of:
Section 1: HQs A-E, Troops A-B, etc. (those available to all Chapters.
Section 2: (Specific Chapter) Chapter Tactics, unique HQs F-G, Troops C-D, etc
Section 3: (Specific Chapter) Chapter Tactics, unique HQs H-J, Troops E-G, etc.
etc.

I picture each section having one of those tabs cut into it like the old big dictionaries had for each new starting letter. Instead of letters on the tabs, they'd each have either an abbreviation for the Chapter, or a symbol representing them (up arrow for the Ultra-Marines, Cross for the Templars, etc) So for example, Templars would look at the generic list, and their Templar list, and there wouldn't be any Librarian in either list because they don't take Psykers.

No Space Marine Chapter would have to lose any of their unique units. If anything, the formerly solitary Codexes would likely gain a few new units out of simplicity. Alternatively, the first section could be units available to "Most" chapters, and some units could have annotations for which chapters they could not be taken for. So to repeat my example, in this case the Librarian would be in the general HQ list, since everyone else can take it, but would have an annotation saying that Black Templars cannot.

My point being, that the factions wouldn't have to lose their uniqueness just for being combined into a single volume with other factions.

As for the Fluff, GW could simply put a code in each Codex that unlocks the Fluff on their websight, so it's still only available to people who bought the books, but would save them the money of printing all of those extra pages, and the rest of us all of that wasted effort carrying around all of that content that's superfluous to the actual game mechanics.

Example, a friend of mine got the Imperial Knights Codex, and fit every rule in the entire book on side of one page printed in a nice orderly fashion. The entire Imperial Knight Codex is one page of rules, and the rest is bloat. The other Codexes have the same problem (though not quite as drastic). If just the rules were included, every Space Marine Chapter would fit in a single volume no bigger than the current Space Marine Codex.

The suggestion would lower GW's production Costs, and if they lowered the sale price by half of the difference of what they're saving, they'd still have a good profit margin, and players would have reduced costs for getting into the game, which means more people would be able to afford to get into the game, and more of them would be likely to stick with the game, resulting in more profits than before over time.

But all of this would also be dependent on them getting their act together regarding making rules that don't suck. No more nerfing the one thing in a Codex that worked. No more buffing a new Codex to being virtually unbeatable, so by the time others can take it, everything else is so easy to kill that there's no point taking anything other than massed cheap units. This is something else GW isn't going to do, but that's the joy of a thought exercise. We can take a peak at what it could have been, and for all we know, someone from GW might see it if it gets enough attention.

OMG THANK YOU!!! THE FLUFF DOES NOT BELONG IN THE RULE BOOKS!!!

GW should do this!!! I should not have to pay $45 for a worthless book that gets replaced faster than a college text book. It full of worthless drivel they call fluff.

I absolutely do not care to read about the fluff. I have argued with people left and right, all day and all night, that each and every rule book and army codex should be condensed and made virtually free. $5 for a very nice laminated 3-5 page restaurant menu style rule sheet.

"Oh but i only play wh40k for the atmosphere and fluffy narrative. If it were not for the fluff, id play Flames of war" says some guy i forget his name.

Are you kidding me? Are you serious?

GW, you dont know how to write logical and balanced rules so you cheat by writing 90% of the rule books with filler fluff like a college student fills an 8 page research paper with drivel. GW does not deserve the $50 of dead trees upon it prints its book from.

 Filch wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:

Lammikkovalas wrote:Considering all the talk and reports of diminishing profit margins and the death of WHFB I don't think that they have any intention of doing charity work by giving anything for free if they think that they can make some serious money out of it.

My suggestion wasn't charity on GW's part. It has been historically proven that decreasing price by the right amount can result in an increase of total income, even with a slightly smaller profit margin on each item. Even if you look at taxes here in America. Historically, when the taxes have been lowered, people start spending more, which means more transactions are happening, which results in the government getting more money than they were before.

If anything GW owns goes under, it's because they're failing at their understanding of the consumer market. If they weren't concerned with price gauging everything they sell, and they kept the profit margins a bit smaller, other knock-off companies wouldn't be able to undercut them by a big enough margin for consumers to care, and everyone would be more likely to buy their armies new from GW.

Lammikkovalas wrote:And if it wasn't already obvious I'm in a discussion about condensing codexes because I'm strongly against it and can't see the end result being better than the current mess.

Bill1138 wrote:I propose (purely thought exercise, since GW will never do this) the Codexes be combined into fewer volumes.

My premise is "What if GW did something right." It's a though experiment that almost everyone else seems to be on board with (the handling of Space Marines being the main point in question).

Lammikkovalas wrote:I completely agree that it'd be a mess and hope that a combined marine codex never sees the light of day. Just think about it: "Chapter 1 can take HQ units A, B and C and troops D and E. Chapter 2 doesn't like witches so they can't take B even though it's right there next to everything else. Chapter 3 thinks that the other guys got it all wrong and only use C and F to H fast attack. Experienced players would sort it out but considering that marines are at least supposedly n00b-friendly it'd be a bad call to make a player's first codex such a minefield of potential mistakes to be made.

Maybe I'm still afraid that the 5e smurfs codex happens again. It wouldn't be so bad for me personally if it's not the codex I'd be using myself but if my precious Unforgiven are clumped together with those guys I'd be pretty pissed. All the differences between the marine chapters are one major reason why I like them as an army. To make a poor religious analogy, if the Codex Astartes is the marine bible then DA, BA, SW and even GK are nonbelievers to varying degrees, some atheists and some agnostics.

The suggestion I proposed would be more along the lines of:
Section 1: HQs A-E, Troops A-B, etc. (those available to all Chapters.
Section 2: (Specific Chapter) Chapter Tactics, unique HQs F-G, Troops C-D, etc
Section 3: (Specific Chapter) Chapter Tactics, unique HQs H-J, Troops E-G, etc.
etc.

I picture each section having one of those tabs cut into it like the old big dictionaries had for each new starting letter. Instead of letters on the tabs, they'd each have either an abbreviation for the Chapter, or a symbol representing them (up arrow for the Ultra-Marines, Cross for the Templars, etc) So for example, Templars would look at the generic list, and their Templar list, and there wouldn't be any Librarian in either list because they don't take Psykers.

No Space Marine Chapter would have to lose any of their unique units. If anything, the formerly solitary Codexes would likely gain a few new units out of simplicity. Alternatively, the first section could be units available to "Most" chapters, and some units could have annotations for which chapters they could not be taken for. So to repeat my example, in this case the Librarian would be in the general HQ list, since everyone else can take it, but would have an annotation saying that Black Templars cannot.

My point being, that the factions wouldn't have to lose their uniqueness just for being combined into a single volume with other factions.

As for the Fluff, GW could simply put a code in each Codex that unlocks the Fluff on their websight, so it's still only available to people who bought the books, but would save them the money of printing all of those extra pages, and the rest of us all of that wasted effort carrying around all of that content that's superfluous to the actual game mechanics.

Example, a friend of mine got the Imperial Knights Codex, and fit every rule in the entire book on side of one page printed in a nice orderly fashion. The entire Imperial Knight Codex is one page of rules, and the rest is bloat. The other Codexes have the same problem (though not quite as drastic). If just the rules were included, every Space Marine Chapter would fit in a single volume no bigger than the current Space Marine Codex.

The suggestion would lower GW's production Costs, and if they lowered the sale price by half of the difference of what they're saving, they'd still have a good profit margin, and players would have reduced costs for getting into the game, which means more people would be able to afford to get into the game, and more of them would be likely to stick with the game, resulting in more profits than before over time.

But all of this would also be dependent on them getting their act together regarding making rules that don't suck. No more nerfing the one thing in a Codex that worked. No more buffing a new Codex to being virtually unbeatable, so by the time others can take it, everything else is so easy to kill that there's no point taking anything other than massed cheap units. This is something else GW isn't going to do, but that's the joy of a thought exercise. We can take a peak at what it could have been, and for all we know, someone from GW might see it if it gets enough attention.

OMG THANK YOU!!! THE FLUFF DOES NOT BELONG IN THE RULE BOOKS!!!

GW should do this!!! I should not have to pay $45 for a worthless book that gets replaced faster than a college text book. It full of worthless drivel they call fluff.

I absolutely do not care to read about the fluff. I have argued with people left and right, all day and all night, that each and every rule book and army codex should be condensed and made virtually free. $5 for a very nice laminated 3-5 page restaurant menu style rule sheet.

"Oh but i only play wh40k for the atmosphere and fluffy narrative. If it were not for the fluff, id play Flames of war" says some guy i forget his name.

Are you kidding me? Are you serious?

GW, you dont know how to write logical and balanced rules so you cheat by writing 90% of the rule books with filler fluff like a college student fills an 8 page research paper with drivel. GW does not deserve the $50 of dead trees upon it prints its book from.

Why on earth would you tolerate rules this bad if not for the fluff and the models?

I like my fluff where it belongs, in the novels! Not the rule book.

Rules? I have been playing less and less. GW sucks so bad they once again made a game breaking typo for Eldar.

Models? feth that, i am boycotting GW. I will only buy scratch built, forge world, and or 2nd hand models. GW will never get a single new dollar from me!

 Filch wrote:
I like my fluff where it belongs, in the novels! Not the rule book.

Rules? I have been playing less and less. GW sucks so bad they once again made a game breaking typo for Eldar.

Models? feth that, i am boycotting GW. I will only buy scratch built, forge world, and or 2nd hand models. GW will never get a single new dollar from me!

You could just do it like the End Times books and split each codex into a crunch book, a fluff book, and an art book.

(And pay three times the cost :UUUUUUU)

 Kain wrote:
You could just do it like the End Times books and split each codex into a crunch book, a fluff book, and an art book.

(And pay three times the cost :UUUUUUU)

Really the rules should be condensed down into a few books, each with a code in the back that allows access to a web page with the Fluff for the factions within it. GW saves on both paper and ink by not including the fluff in the books, and the rest of us don't have to carry around a bunch of trivial content to our games. And the price of each of these volumes could be dropped

It also removes part of the smoke screen that GW is hiding behind. Without all of the fluff in the Codexes the rules are in the forefront and they have no excuse for screwing them up.

And even if they gave us the books at cost, they'd probably make more off of the models because more people would buy new Codexes just to see if it was a faction they wanted to play. I know I'm not going to pay $50+ just to find out if I like the new faction or new rules for a preexisting faction.

 Kain wrote:

 Filch wrote:
I like my fluff where it belongs, in the novels! Not the rule book.

Rules? I have been playing less and less. GW sucks so bad they once again made a game breaking typo for Eldar.

Models? feth that, i am boycotting GW. I will only buy scratch built, forge world, and or 2nd hand models. GW will never get a single new dollar from me!

You could just do it like the End Times books and split each codex into a crunch book, a fluff book, and an art book.

(And pay three times the cost :UUUUUUU)

Dafuq you mean pay 3x the cost? I would only pay 1/3 by not wasting money on the other 2 fluff and art book.

what kind of Ork mathematics are you doing?

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
Eg. DW knights = TH/SS guys with bathrobes, RW knights = bikers with plasmaguns, Thunderwolf Cavalry = counts as bikers, Sanguinary Guard = vanguard vets with jump packs etc.

And that's exactly how it should work. Those units can have their own fluff and models, but they don't need special snowflake rules. Your TWC are still TWC even if they have the same rules as a bike squad.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Games Workshop is getting ridiculous with the Codex releases. I’m not buying new armies, because I can’t afford to buy their Codexes just to see if they’re an army I might be interested in.

IMO , the problem is GW plc see codex books as only supporting short term sales of the latest releases, at the detriment to long term game play.

The latest codex is used to 'inspire' people to purchase the products highlighted in that codex.With very little thought given to the poor folks trying to play a game with the over complicated and counter intuitive rules.
This is made even worse with so little internal and external game balance across the range of codex books ,it is just not worth the time and effort to try to get a enjoyable game any more, for a large amount of potential GW customers.

IMO, the problem is GW KEEP choosing simple options for 40k, that restrict the game play options.And so end up getting hideously complicated rules.

EG.
You can use unit function to class how the F.O.C. is structure.As in 40k, Elite , Fast attack, Heavy support.
Which means any theme that has fast attack , or heavy support or elite units as its core, needs special characters -rules to cover them.OR a special separate book..

OR you can class units on rarity in the army theme.
Common , Specialist and Restricted.
Then the units can be classed in accordance to the theme of the army .
So one F.O.C can cover ALL the chapters, Klanz, Craftworlds, Regiments , Hive fleets, etc.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
Eg. DW knights = TH/SS guys with bathrobes, RW knights = bikers with plasmaguns, Thunderwolf Cavalry = counts as bikers, Sanguinary Guard = vanguard vets with jump packs etc.

And that's exactly how it should work. Those units can have their own fluff and models, but they don't need special snowflake rules. Your TWC are still TWC even if they have the same rules as a bike squad.

Absolutely correct IMHO.
These armies were all one Codex once. You only gained stuff, so you shouldn't be overly complaining that you lost your character. If all Chapters were rolled into one, and the codex divergent chapters had like two/three unique units, that would be alright, no? Allow your special rules to be treated like Chapter Tactics, and cut half of the Smurf special characters out to have about one/two special characters per Chapter Tactic.

The army could consist of:

CM
Captain
Libby (BT wouldn't get access to this)
Chaplain
Command Squad
Honour Guard (BA can give their HG jump packs = Sanguinary Guard?)
MOTF

Tactical Squad (All Chapters get HF heavy weapon)
Scout Squad
(BT get Crusader Squad)

Terminator Squad (All Chapters get PC heavy weapon)
Assault Terminator Squad
Sternguard
Vanguard
Dreadnought
Ironclad
Venerable (All Chapters get SS Dreads)
Centurions
LOTD

Assault Squad (All Chapters get infernus pistols/hand flamers)
Bikers
Land Speeders
(Space Wolves get TWC)
Rhino
Razorback
DP
Stormtalon
Scout Bikers

LR variants
Predator (Baal variants added to regular Predator armoury)
Vindicator
Whirlwind
Centurions
Stalker
Hunter
TFC
Stormraven
Devastator Squad

(DA get Deathwing and Ravenwing formations)


Off the top of my head.
Yep, and I can hear your indignant cries of outrage.

Lanrak wrote:
OR you can class units on rarity in the army theme.
Common , Specialist and Restricted.
Then the units can be classed in accordance to the theme of the army .
So one F.O.C can cover ALL the chapters, Klanz, Craftworlds, Regiments , Hive fleets, etc.

I like it!

If I understand your meaning, a Force Organization Chart would be something like:
0-1 Unique (Named Characters, or units of which there is only one in the galaxy)
0-3 Restricted (generic commanders, and other extremely rare units)
2-5 Specialists (elite infantry, low level commanders, and other specialist units)
3-8 Common (main infantry and other common units)

This would require completely re-working all of the other Codex-specific Detachments, but I think it would be worth the effort.

My desires for having a separate DA codex are twofold:

1) I like having a book that shows a lot of the DA stuff. Having a big section of images makes it easier to get an idea of how they might look, outside of googling it. Throw in examples of successor chapters (never would have found guardians of the covenant otherwise). Plus I like having as much background info for all the DA as is provided.... explanations of how each branch of the chapter functions, decent descriptions of all my characters, relics, etc. Not absolutely necessary, but a nice thing to have if you're into fluff.

2) I'll probably lose a lot of my toys, unless they make this book absolutely massive. To keep my army close to what it is now, I'd need an individual entry for DW (as they have a decent bit of unique rules that can't really be summarized) and DW knights (because you know, unique unit), RW black knights, both of my unique speeders and unique flyers (even though they kind of suck outside the darkshroud), something explaining that I can make my land raiders venerable, at least 4-5 entries for unique characters (because I don't feel like running Ezekiel as Tigurius, or throwing out my Sammy model).... literally all that could be condensed into the standard book is my tacs, scouts, bikes, and standard vehicles.

I'd have at least 11 characters/units/vehicles that I'd have to modify/lose if they don't put them in this marine ultradex as a unique entry. I'm not sure if the other unique marine chapters would be quite this bad, but there'd have to be a huge section for DA. And I don't want to buy a massive book that they're going to charge $100-$150 for when I don't even use any of the other chapters, outside of maybe wanting grav guns/centurions that they'll likely throw in the next DA codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

(DA get Deathwing and Ravenwing formations)


Off the top of my head.
Yep, and I can hear your indignant cries of outrage.

You're forgetting 6 unique models that either need decent modification or just need thrown out. DW knights, black knights, darkshroud, vengeance, nephilim, and darktalon. I'm cutting the mace arm off my knights and need 5 hammers from somewhere (per squad, and I know guys that have 20-30 of them, where do you find that many spare hammers?), getting rid of the plasma talons and corvus hammers off my black knights and getting a ton of bike bolters and pistol arms from somewhere, tearing huge chunks off my darkshroud and vengeance, and just outright throwing my nephilim and darktalon in the trash.

While everyone else might be fine with this, I don't feel like spending the time and money to completely redo/replace that many models.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

(DA get Deathwing and Ravenwing formations)


Off the top of my head.
Yep, and I can hear your indignant cries of outrage.

You're forgetting 6 unique models that either need decent modification or just need thrown out. DW knights, black knights, darkshroud, vengeance, nephilim, and darktalon. I'm cutting the mace arm off my knights and need 5 hammers from somewhere (per squad, and I know guys that have 20-30 of them, where do you find that many spare hammers?), getting rid of the plasma talons and corvus hammers off my black knights and getting a ton of bike bolters and pistol arms from somewhere, tearing huge chunks off my darkshroud and vengeance, and just outright throwing my nephilim and darktalon in the trash.

While everyone else might be fine with this, I don't feel like spending the time and money to completely redo/replace that many models.

I honestly didn't think that anyone liked the Neph and Darktalon anyway. Either way, they were only just added to the new codex, so aren't an integral part of DA fluff. Besides, Stormraven/Stormtalon are good tradeoffs, no?

Allow maces to be taken for regular temies? Why do DA get a monopoly on maces?
Corvus hammers become power weapons of some variety? Or allow them and plasma guns to be bought en masse as part of the Ravenwing formation?
Allow the upgrades of the Darkshroud/Vengeance to be access for all Land Speeder Typhoon variants?

Not too hard.

 kingbobbito wrote:
My desires for having a separate DA codex are twofold:

1) I like having a book that shows a lot of the DA stuff. Having a big section of images makes it easier to get an idea of how they might look, outside of googling it. Throw in examples of successor chapters (never would have found guardians of the covenant otherwise). Plus I like having as much background info for all the DA as is provided.... explanations of how each branch of the chapter functions, decent descriptions of all my characters, relics, etc. Not absolutely necessary, but a nice thing to have if you're into fluff.

That background could be provided online just as easily, at no cost to Games Workshop, and would decrease the size of the Codexes by half or more (Every single rule and profile for the Imperial Knights in their entire Codex can fit comfortably on one page).

My suggestion was that GW would have a webpage with a tab for each faction, and people would click on the appropriate tab, enter a code found on either the front or back inside cover of their Codex, which would then allow them access to the fluff and pictures for their faction. If anything you'd get more, because GW wouldn't have the expense of the paper and ink to print all of that, and the general public wouldn't have to carry around that extra weight and bulk that's superfluous to the actual game-play.

By doing this with the Fluff and extra pictures, each Codex could be reduced to a pamphlet/magazine that could be sold for $5-10, making them much more accessible to the consumers, and increasing the odds that they'd buy all of the Codexes to see what the other factions have. Or, as was my suggestion, they could be condensed into a handful of Codexes no larger than the current Space Marine Codex, and that purchase price of ~$50 would get you several factions to choose from, and you could have access to all of the Codexes for no more than $200.

2) I'll probably lose a lot of my toys, unless they make this book absolutely massive. To keep my army close to what it is now, I'd need an individual entry for DW (as they have a decent bit of unique rules that can't really be summarized) and DW knights (because you know, unique unit), RW black knights, both of my unique speeders and unique flyers (even though they kind of suck outside the darkshroud), something explaining that I can make my land raiders venerable, at least 4-5 entries for unique characters (because I don't feel like running Ezekiel as Tigurius, or throwing out my Sammy model).... literally all that could be condensed into the standard book is my tacs, scouts, bikes, and standard vehicles.

I'd have at least 11 characters/units/vehicles that I'd have to modify/lose if they don't put them in this marine ultradex as a unique entry. I'm not sure if the other unique marine chapters would be quite this bad, but there'd have to be a huge section for DA. And I don't want to buy a massive book that they're going to charge $100-$150 for when I don't even use any of the other chapters, outside of maybe wanting grav guns/centurions that they'll likely throw in the next DA codex.

I didn't suggest taking any of the snowflake units away from factions. If anything, the factions would gain access to additional units from the vanilla Space Marine Codex, just to make the layout a little cleaner and easier to follow.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

(DA get Deathwing and Ravenwing formations)


Off the top of my head.
Yep, and I can hear your indignant cries of outrage.

You're forgetting 6 unique models that either need decent modification or just need thrown out. DW knights, black knights, darkshroud, vengeance, nephilim, and darktalon. I'm cutting the mace arm off my knights and need 5 hammers from somewhere (per squad, and I know guys that have 20-30 of them, where do you find that many spare hammers?), getting rid of the plasma talons and corvus hammers off my black knights and getting a ton of bike bolters and pistol arms from somewhere, tearing huge chunks off my darkshroud and vengeance, and just outright throwing my nephilim and darktalon in the trash.

While everyone else might be fine with this, I don't feel like spending the time and money to completely redo/replace that many models.

That's not what my suggestion was.
Section 1 Space Marines (these units are available to every faction in this Codex.
Section 2 Blood Angels (This includes the snowflake units unique to the Blood Angels
Section 3 Dark Angels (this includes the snowflake units unique to the Dark Angels
Section 4 Space Wolves (this section kncludes the snowflake units unique to the Space Wolves.
*Some units in section 1 would have a notation baring them from being used with one faction or another, such as the Librarian not being taken for the Black Templars.

Codex: Chaos would be laid out the same way for the 4 Chaos gods as separate factions.

Codex: (fancy name) would be laid out the same way with Inquisition and Militarum Tempestus being merged into one faction, Grey Knights and Skitarii being made into one faction, and Sisters of Battle being their own faction (but with extra units to make the Sisters viable on their own).

Codex: Xenos would be laid out the same way, but not having any shared units. The factions would be in alphabetical order, and each one would be contained with its own rules with a cover-page separating it from the next.

That would be every single rule in the whole of 40k in 5 books (4 Codexes and the Core Rulebook), and the entire stack should be about 4" thick. The 4 Codexes should be no more than $50 each, and the Core Rules should be available without having to pay for the fluff and extra pictures the same way bringing its price down to no more than $50.

No one loses anything, but some factions get a few new units. And the book is no bigger because the material irrelevant to the game is all online instead of being in the book.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I honestly didn't think that anyone liked the Neph and Darktalon anyway. Either way, they were only just added to the new codex, so aren't an integral part of DA fluff. Besides, Stormraven/Stormtalon are good tradeoffs, no?

I don't think anyone actually likes them, it's just that I already own one of each, because they come in that dark vengeance expansion box at a decent bit less than buying everything separately. (EDIT: and I can't really make them count as a stormraven or talon, at all)

Allow maces to be taken for regular temies? Why do DA get a monopoly on maces?

Keep in mind too that knights have a handful of rules that make them good, and honestly if I could keep any one cool unit it'd be DW knights. Fearless, precision strikes, fortress of shields, hammer of wrath, smite mode and bane of traitors on the maces.... yeah, they're super special snowflakes, but they're genuinely the coolest unit in our codex right now. I'd be rather miffed if GW cut them just because.

Corvus hammers become power weapons of some variety? Or allow them and plasma guns to be bought en masse as part of the Ravenwing formation?

Sadly making hammers power weapons would insanely jack up the price, as it currently costs 12 points to give one a sword or maul. Also, if we make the upgrades for a Ravenwing detachment, that'd most likely force me to purchase a lot of bikes when I often just want to run a single RW command squad. And what happens to my apothecary and standard bearer? Tear off all the stuff that makes them count as that model?

Allow the upgrades of the Darkshroud/Vengeance to be access for all Land Speeder Typhoon variants?

I suppose this could work, despite them being a DA thing. From the sounds of it we're throwing most of the specialty units armies have (like BA preds and dreadnoughts) into a pool that anyone can take from?

HI folks.
I think I should explain my alternative idea in a bit more detail.

All background and hobby related articles, modeling projects, conversions and painting guides etc.Are put in a separate book to inspire 'hobbiests and collectors'.
These people do not have to buy the latest rules they may not be interested in.

All the actual unit in game data ,and rules are put in the new codex format.

So all the units from all 'sub factions' are put in the new codex book.
EG codex space marines has all the SW, BA,DA, etc units included.

The new F.O.C follows this format.
Select a HQ unit .(This determines the theme of your army, and what units are Common, Specialist or Restricted in the list for that particular HQ choice.)

Select 2 to 8 Common units (from the choices determined by the HQ you selected.)

For every 2 Common unit choices taken you may take one Specialist unit.(from the choices determined by the HQ you selected .)

For every 2 Specialist unit choices taken you may take one restricted unit.(from the choices determined by the HQ you selected. )

This always gives a 4,2,1 ratio between Common Specialist and Restricted units.

This way the codex can have lots of 'theme specific units' that are only unlocked if the HQ and army is themed that way.

EG taking Orks for example, a Squiggoth is only available if the player selects a Snakebite(Feral Ork ) HQ of Warboss on Warboar.
Takes four feral Common units (Wild Boys , Supa Grotz, or Boys mobs,)
Two feral Specialist units,(Madboyz or Boarboyz.)
This then unlock the option for a Squggoth.(A Feral Battle Wagon replacement.)

Other Ork Klanz,Bad Moons,(Expensive gear,) Blood Axes, (Spec ops.) Deff Skull (Lootaz,)Evil Sunz,(Mobile infantry,)Goffs ,(foot sloggers,)Kult Of Speed,(Recon -raiders.)
Have their own specialist units , and themes.

In the same way the HQ options in a SM complete Codex, can cover all the current lists for B.A., D.A.S.W. B.T. etc.

Each codex would have 6 to 12 HQ options and army themes to cover the basic ethos of each sub faction.

I may need to explain this a bit better.

The sprawling ruleset is becoming problematic. I would like to see the "major" codexes minimized, and then add sub-faction flavor (special formations, named characters, a few special units) using cheap mini-codexes. Example:

Space Marines
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Black Templars
Grey Knights
Etc.

Imperial Guard
Storm Troopers
Cadians
Catchatans
Etc.

Orks
Evil Sunz
Goffs
Etc.

Eldar
Ulthwé
Pirates
Exodites
Etc.

Dark Eldar
Covens
Kabal of The Bloodied Rose
Etc.

Chaos
Forces of Tzeench
Black Legion
The Lost and the Damned
Etc.

Necrons
Sautekh Dynasty
Charnovokh Dynasty
Etc.

Tyranids
Hive Fleet Leviathan
Geanstealer Cults
Etc.

A bunch of stuff falls through the cracks. Sisters of Battle, the Inquisition, Admech, and Knights don't fit cleanly into this. Grey Knights might have to become even more vanilla (though IMO their main distinguishing features are extra special rules and a different wargear section). But especially with the advent of formations and decurion-style detachments, it's fairly easy to take existing units from a major codex and give them flavor.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I'd need an individual entry for DW

Regular terminator squad with fancy paint. Already WYSIWYG.

DW knights

TH/SS with fancy paint. Already WYSIWYG.

RW black knights

Bikes or bike command squad. All you have to do is count the plasma guns as bolters.

both of my unique speeders and unique flyers

Ugly design mistakes that should go OOP and be forgotten. But maybe you can proxy them as something.

something explaining that I can make my land raiders venerable

Why? DA venerable Land Raiders are just Land Raiders with some fancy detail bits on the model.

(because I don't feel like running Ezekiel as Tigurius,

Then run him as a regular librarian rules-wise and call him Ezekiel when you talk about your army's fluff.

or throwing out my Sammy model

Captain/chapter master on a bike.

literally all that could be condensed into the standard book is my tacs, scouts, bikes, and standard vehicles.

No, virtually everything in the DA codex could be consolidated into C:SM. You're making a flawed assumption that each unit needs to keep its special snowflake rules just because it has its own special snowflake rules right now. The game needs to be simplified, and virtually every element of the DA fluff can be properly represented by C:SM and an appropriate DA chapter tactics rule.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, virtually everything in the DA codex could be consolidated into C:SM. You're making a flawed assumption that each unit needs to keep its special snowflake rules just because it has its own special snowflake rules right now. The game needs to be simplified, and virtually every element of the DA fluff can be properly represented by C:SM and an appropriate DA chapter tactics rule.

Sorry, not everyone wants to play ultrasmurfs. I'm familiar with and chose DA because I like the tactics they use, I would have chosen C:SM if I wanted to run the generic marines. It's the same as choosing eldar because you don't want to play marines. Cutting a codex from the game is not "simplifying" the game. Just because we have a handful of unique rules doesn't make the game any harder to play, because it literally takes me a couple minutes to tell you how everything works. All I have to say is "these are my special rules", and "I can do this deathwing stuff", and if anything else confusing comes up it takes next to no time to say what it does.

The type of simplification you're asking for would better be solved by cutting vehicles, MCs, LOW, and why not just anything that isn't barebones infantry? Why should we have special marines that get fancy confusing guns (sternguard), special marines with jump packs or bikes? Why are there unique HQs at all, and chapter tactics for that matter? Why don't we just lump eldar and dark eldar and guardsmen together, since they all have 10 man squads with light armor, and orks and tyranids together since they both have hordes, and necrons, tau, and marines together since they both have 4+ and 3+ soldiers?

We could sum this game up into 3 or 4 factions if we wanted to for simplification's sake. But no one would want to have nids that count as orks or guardians that count as guardsmen. I mean, how would you even benefit from cutting DA and BA and SW and GK? You don't need to memorize all those codices unless you're playing against TFG that makes rules up, and no one should want to play that guy to begin with. Just because a model looks similar to another model doesn't mean it's the same model, or we wouldn't have sternguard, vanguard, etc. If you want a simple game, just make everyone play generic marines so you don't need to learn more than one codex. The game benefits from having different armies with different tactics. Sorry if you disagree. Like I said, refuse to play anyone that doesn't use smurfs.

Hi folks.
This is the reason I wanted to cover variations in theme , and allow more themed units to keep the feel of the sub factions, within each sub faction.
I agree that 'special snowflake rules ' are not needed.
But specifically themed units for some sub factions are needed, IMO.

What really irks people is the way SM gets the first codex and three to four sub faction codex books, while entire full factions are ignored for years...

Treating all factions the same with fluff and craft hobby tips in a separate book.

And the codex covering ALL units types for ALL the sub factions , in one book brings all races to an equal focus.

I have 3 1/2 Space Marine armies and would be happy with the following:

Chapter Master
Captain
Libby
Chaplain
Command Squad
Honour Guard, option for jump and other speicals
MOTF

Tactical Squad (All Chapters get all options including Sniper rifle)
Scout Squad
"Crusader" Squad - for assault Chapters

Terminator Squad (All Chapters get PC heavy weapon) - combine Assault and Normal - cos why not - closer to the fluff
Veteran Squads - with option of Sternguard, Vanguard or Scout rules, sniper rifle option
Dreadnought
Ironclad
Venerable (All Chapters get SS Dreads)
Tech Marine
LOTD

Assault Squad (All Chapters get infernus pistols/hand flamers)
Bikers (upgrades like Plasma versions)
Land Speeders
Cavalry unit for those Chapters that use them
Rhino
Razorback
DP
Scout Bikers

LR variants
Predator (Baal variants added to regular Predator armoury)
Vindicator
Whirlwind
Stalker
Hunter
TFC
Stormeagle
Devastator Squad

Thunderhawk

Various Chapter specific formations

For those who claim that the Chapters that have been recently treated as oh so special and need to still be - look at the background of Chapters such as the Raven Guard, Salamnders, White Scars and others and ask why these don; get stuff when these do?