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 Blacksails wrote:
The WK is a pretty slick model. Frankly, most of the Eldar range is pretty good looking. My wife has a small collection for painting, and I'll be damned if I won't convince her to paint up a WK.

Yes it is. I bought one on preorder when it first came out. I certainly didn't know that two years down the line it would be broken.

BS: I noticed afterwards that you altered your post:

Erm, yes? I'm being serious, the Wraithknight is a pretty sweet model, not everyone who buys one will be doing so because it's broken. Obviously. Are YOU being serious..?

I'm just saying. It seems pretty unlikely.

And I've not seen any common consensus that WK should be 50pts more. I've seen numbers thrown around but no consensus on anything. This is the internet after all. You aren't going to get a common consensus.

Ok. Suppose I were to start polling non-eldar players. "How many more points should the wraithknight cost?" What percent of respondents do you think would answer "less than 50 points more"?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheKbob wrote:*I'm using it in the context as outlined in the link. Not derogatory, but simply playing by imaginary rules they've made up and then try to impose on the other players. Scrubs are WAAC TFG types and going on about fair and unfair. Guess what? You bought the rules and play the game. If it's broken, then play something else. You're not the game designer and you're actively forcing your idea of fun on someone else. The finger your pointing is actively being wagged back at you because you cannot define someone else's idea of a fair and fun game.

Eldar are extremely overpowering, without a doubt. But that's because GW is bad at their jobs, at least from game design.

I've addressed these points earlier in the thread. See my previous comments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
The WK is a pretty slick model. Frankly, most of the Eldar range is pretty good looking. My wife has a small collection for painting, and I'll be damned if I won't convince her to paint up a WK.

Yes it is. I bought one on preorder when it first came out. I certainly didn't know that two years down the line it would be broken.

They were undercosted in 6th edition. Seriously. You don't really have a plausible excuse here.

The wraithknight IS a beautifull model. i've contemplated getting one just for modeling purposes as i dont play eldar.

Blacksails, I'm not offended. You have called me far worse here than that. I only proed the point to establish it as an insult. There are far worse ones that could be used that are far more insulting. that particular one just doesnt apply in this case though. No harm done

Traditio wrote:

Really?

Really?

...

...

Really? Are you seriously proposing this as a real possibility? Tell me, did you have a straight face when you hit the "submit" button? I bet you're still giggling about it, aren't you?

Did you ever read my first post a few pages back? I bought the Wraith army kit a while back because it basically came at a good discount and I wanted more Wraithguard. I got a good deal on the WK and it was easy to model, magentize, and paint. I field it because I was proud of it and it was not obscenely bad for it's price at the time.

Now that kit, plus the one extra box of WG I got have 30 D weapons and the WK has 2 D weapons and is more powerful and durable.

Do you want to tell me, right now that I'm TFG? Do you want to say I bought that expensive kit because I want an unfair game? BACK IN 6TH?

Traditio wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Are you seriously proposing this isn't a real possibility?

I'm saying that it's laughably improbable in at least the vast majority of cases.

I've got an Eldar playing friend who has a collection of Jetbikes that not only predate this codex, they probably predate you.

How does that fit with your dubious theory? How is it possible to own and play models before they're broken?

Traditio wrote:
BS: I noticed afterwards that you altered your post:

Erm, yes? I'm being serious, the Wraithknight is a pretty sweet model, not everyone who buys one will be doing so because it's broken. Obviously. Are YOU being serious..?

I'm just saying. It seems pretty unlikely.

It doesn't seem that unlikely to me. Not everybody buys broken stuff because it's broken. That's one of my main issues with the bloody game, someone might love a certain themed army that happens to be broken, and someone might like a themed army that's godawful. That's why crappy balance hurts casual/fluffy players more than competitive players.

And I've not seen any common consensus that WK should be 50pts more. I've seen numbers thrown around but no consensus on anything. This is the internet after all. You aren't going to get a common consensus.

Ok. Suppose I were to start polling non-eldar players. "How many more points should the wraithknight cost?" What percent of respondents do you think would answer "less than 50 points more"?

1

Made up statistic, nice.

I too have never seen a consensus suggesting 50 points is okay for a Wk as an fix. I certainly don't agree with it. 100 might be better, possibly more.

On the other side of the coin, how do you fix bad units like warp talons? 1k sons? Tac marines?

ImAGeek wrote:
Yes it is. I bought one on preorder when it first came out. I certainly didn't know that two years down the line it would be broken.

Shame really. Knights are pretty cool too.

Traditio wrote:BS: I noticed afterwards that you altered your post:

I'm just saying. It seems pretty unlikely.

Again, unless you can read minds, you have zero basis for that. Further, there's nothing saying you can't have multiple reasons, which then complicates the matter more.

Either way, I'd recommend you avoid asserting, assuming, or otherwise making up facts about why people take certain models. You'll get as many answers as there are players.

Ok. Suppose I were to start polling non-eldar players. "How many more points should the wraithknight cost?" What percent of respondents do you think would answer "less than 50 points more"?

Why not poll all players, including Eldar players. From what I've read so far, plenty of Eldar players aren't exactly tickled pink about the changes.

Azreal wrote:I've got an Eldar playing friend who has a collection of Jetbikes that not only predate this codex, they probably predate you.

How does that fit with your dubious theory? How is it possible to own and play models before they're broken?

Are they all scatter bikes?

At any rate, I was specifically addressing wraithknights. I'm pretty sure that they only came out in 6th edition, and they were commonly considered undercosted even then.

 EVIL INC wrote:
The wraithknight IS a beautifull model. i've contemplated getting one just for modeling purposes as i dont play eldar.

Blacksails, I'm not offended. You have called me far worse here than that. I only proed the point to establish it as an insult. There are far worse ones that could be used that are far more insulting. that particular one just doesnt apply in this case though. No harm done

It isn't an insult

You are trying to make it so by ascribing motive and intent with zero evidence to do so and making massive assumptions.

Traditio wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
The WK is a pretty slick model. Frankly, most of the Eldar range is pretty good looking. My wife has a small collection for painting, and I'll be damned if I won't convince her to paint up a WK.

Yes it is. I bought one on preorder when it first came out. I certainly didn't know that two years down the line it would be broken.

They were undercosted in 6th edition. Seriously. You don't really have a plausible excuse here.

I brought it on preorder, it's in the quote. I didn't know how strong it was in the game.

ImAGeek wrote:It doesn't seem that unlikely to me. Not everybody buys broken stuff because it's broken. That's one of my main issues with the bloody game, someone might love a certain themed army that happens to be broken, and someone might like a themed army that's godawful. That's why crappy balance hurts casual/fluffy players more than competitive players.

Again, wraithknights only came out in 6th edition (I think). In 6th edition, they were commonly considered undercosted, no? The common list in 6th was waveserpent/wraithguard spam with 2 wraithknights.

Made up statistic, nice.

The "1" was a typo.

Sorry, double post

 Azreal13 wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
The wraithknight IS a beautifull model. i've contemplated getting one just for modeling purposes as i dont play eldar.

Blacksails, I'm not offended. You have called me far worse here than that. I only proed the point to establish it as an insult. There are far worse ones that could be used that are far more insulting. that particular one just doesnt apply in this case though. No harm done

It isn't an insult

You are trying to make it so by ascribing motive and intent with zero evidence to do so and making massive assumptions.

He won't get it. He'd determined to make it an insult despite all evidence to the contrary.
I'm going to keep using the word because English.

Akiasura wrote:
I too have never seen a consensus suggesting 50 points is okay for a Wk as an fix. I certainly don't agree with it. 100 might be better, possibly more.

But note, you don't disagree that at least a 50 points increase is necessary. You and I both agree that if an eldar player has a 1000 points list for a 1000 points game, and he has a wraithknight, he has at least 50 points more worth of units than he should be able to have.

On the other side of the coin, how do you fix bad units like warp talons? 1k sons? Tac marines?

1. Decrease their points cost.
2. Make their stuff better.
3. Nerf everything else.
4. Make the rules more friendly to those units.

Traditio wrote:

Again, wraithknights only came out in 6th edition (I think). In 6th edition, they were commonly considered undercosted, no?

In 6th they didn't have FNP, could only target a single unit, didn't have stomp, and weren't resistant to ID and removes from play.

They were good, but not game breaking. Their weapon did ID on a 6. Now it removes the model on a 6 and D3 wounds/HP on a 2-3 and targets different targets.

Traditio wrote:

Azreal wrote:I've got an Eldar playing friend who has a collection of Jetbikes that not only predate this codex, they probably predate you.

How does that fit with your dubious theory? How is it possible to own and play models before they're broken?

Are they all scatter bikes?

At any rate, I was specifically addressing wraithknights. I'm pretty sure that they only came out in 6th edition, and they were commonly considered undercosted even then.

No, but he's sure got enough cannons to use them, and that's potentially almost as strong.

Knights, Imperial or Wraith, also count amongst some of the most spectacular models released in recent years, why wouldn't people have been excited to own them?

Speaking personally, I'd never put a model on the table that I didn't like the look of, making armies I find pleasing to look at is my priority. I can tell you I'd absolutely want to include a WK in an Eldar army because they're fething spectacular, just as I have an IK army (that's yet to see the field, but that's cos I paintz slow) and a variety of other units which definitely rate at the strong end of the spectrum in other armies, but I can say categorically that in game ability was either of no consideration or a distant secondary to the aesthetics.

Read the definition of the word, then the definition of insult. Then look at the context in which it is used. that proves it to be an insult regardless what color or size you want to deny it in.Because all evidence proves it to be. lol
But like I said, I've seen far worse ones used on here and it is incorrectly used here to define someone as something they are obviously not (hene the insult) so no harm has been done just proving the point beyond the shadow of a doubt for future reference

on topic, I'm waiting for my eldar playing buddy to get the new eldar codex so i can see the details of the new units and options/rules. I look forward to the challenge of countering them

Savageconvoy wrote:Did you ever read my first post a few pages back? I bought the Wraith army kit a while back because it basically came at a good discount and I wanted more Wraithguard.

Why, pray tell, did you want more wraithguard? What did your list look like?

Do you want to tell me, right now that I'm TFG? Do you want to say I bought that expensive kit because I want an unfair game? BACK IN 6TH?

Not necessarily. But do you think that the Wraithknight currently is overpowered? If you do, do you run that wraithknight? Do you take a full x number of points list even though you are including a wraithknight?

If so, then that might speak negatively about your character.

Going 'off topic' and then saying 'on topic' is NOT going to fly.

ALL - STOP doing it - it is dragging this thread - yes - off topic AND causing RULE 1 violations all over the place.

STAY ON TOPIC for the entirety of your post.

"Cute" workarounds in order to get jabs in at people?

Unacceptable.

Savageconvoy wrote:In 6th they didn't have FNP, could only target a single unit, didn't have stomp, and weren't resistant to ID and removes from play.

They were good, but not game breaking.

And yet the standard internet list required 2 of them. You must understand if I'm not impressed by what you are saying.

Their weapon did ID on a 6. Now it removes the model on a 6 and D3 wounds/HP on a 2-3 and targets different targets.

Yes. They were undercosted before. Now they're even more undercosted and broken. What's your point?

Don't change the goal posts. My point is there is no consensus for 50 points being the right amount for a WK. You asserted there is.
There is a big difference between 50 points and 100 points for what is right.


Which of these do you suggest for talons? All of them? I'm supposed to change the entire game to allow someone to field one unit?
Be specific. I can't go into a club and expect someone to sit down with me for an hour and rework the rules. I have to have something in mind they will agree with right off the bat. Telling someone to do something unofficial is remarkably difficult in a competitive game. See all of forge world's history.

Traditio wrote:
Why, pray tell, did you want more wraithguard? What did your list look like?

Because I like an expensive golem like unit with cannons. They were slow, tough, and had short range. Do you really want to tell me the 6th ed Wraith guard were game breakingly bad?
I thought they were good. Yes. What does that have to do with anything though? Why would I buy a unit I thought would do badly or that I couldn't use?
I had an ally list before I bought them. Bikes, Spiritseer, Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent, and a Fireprism.
Then I bought the kit so I could have a Wraith army.

Not necessarily. But do you think that the Wraithknight currently is overpowered?

Absolutely. For the reasons I already listed. But it's one of my favorite models that I painted, assembled, and based. So I keep my favorite model right now shelved and embarrassed to field it.

If you do, do you run that wraithknight? Do you take a full x number of points list even though you are including a wraithknight?

If so, then that might speak negatively about your character.

I had my army pre 7th. I've been working on them before the new codex dropped. I used to be proud of my wraith army that I was building. Now they sit unfinished on the shelf because I can't field them. I am honestly ashamed to have that army now. I often times consider finishing it just to sell it because if I even tried to put them on the table then I'd feel like TFG.

Do you really want to talk to me about my character?

Traditio, you've addressed nothing but saying "the content of your character...." well if you read what I linked it actively fitting that definition of a Scrub. It's not meant as an insult, but purely short hand of an individual who wants to win not by the rules of the game, but by their own definition of success (I'd take a better less inflammatory word to define this anyway).

So what you see as unfair is seen by others as whining. You paid for 40k. You now know it's a hot mess. So either fix the rules in time, "fix it" and play with friends or accept that the current release is the way to play.

And everyone can play Eldar, so it's entirely fair. Is it cost effective, exciting, or a great way to make a good game? Not in the least!

So stop wagging fingers and judging Internet randoms based on their plastic men. Because who know, maybe GW will make your army/model composition the next OP flavor of the week. Then what?

Phone edits...

Akiasura wrote:
Don't change the goal posts. My point is there is no consensus for 50 points being the right amount for a WK. You asserted there is.
There is a big difference between 50 points and 100 points for what is right.

I've already addressed this previously vs. the gentleman from Alabama. Yes, there may not be an exact concensus about how undercosted the WK is. There is, however, a concensus that the WK is undercosted...by at least 50 points, in fact.

Which of these do you suggest for talons?

I'm unfamiliar with warptalons.

I'm supposed to change the entire game to allow someone to field one unit?
Be specific. I can't go into a club and expect someone to sit down with me for an hour and rework the rules. I have to have something in mind they will agree with right off the bat. Telling someone to do something unofficial is remarkably difficult in a competitive game. See all of forge world's history.

Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood your previous question. I was thinking in terms of what GW could do to make those units better. You are asking about here and now solutions that players could use to make thousand sons, for example, better?

I don't own the Chaos space marines codex. But one solution is simply to ask your opponent not to use monstrous creatures. Chaos space marines can deal with infantry and vehicles, no?

Traditio wrote:

Savageconvoy wrote:Did you ever read my first post a few pages back? I bought the Wraith army kit a while back because it basically came at a good discount and I wanted more Wraithguard.

Why, pray tell, did you want more wraithguard? What did your list look like?

Do you want to tell me, right now that I'm TFG? Do you want to say I bought that expensive kit because I want an unfair game? BACK IN 6TH?

Not necessarily. But do you think that the Wraithknight currently is overpowered? If you do, do you run that wraithknight? Do you take a full x number of points list even though you are including a wraithknight?

If so, then that might speak negatively about your character.

Let's shift this up then, I've played varieties of marine since I got into this hobby, before 7th dropped and the one person who played eldar left before the 6th codex came out, I saw the wraith models and I thought hey those are pretty sweet, if I wasn't working on whichever aspect of marine I was at the time, maybe I'd get some, then the Iyanded supplement comes out and I remember thinking those wraith models were pretty sweet, look up a few reviews, wraithguard as troops, man that's pretty cool, if I wasn't buying 30k power armour for the eventual release of the alpha legion and raven guard, maybe I'd get some.

If I had decided to go for those wraith models, would I be TFG? does it speak negatively about my character, that a decision not in my hands made the wraith units even better. As that is what you're saying about people who thought "wow those new models are cool I'd better impulse buy them while I've still got some cash".

edit for the spelling and grammar

Savageconvoy wrote:Because I like an expensive golem like unit with cannons. They were slow, tough, and had short range. Do you really want to tell me the 6th ed Wraith guard were game breakingly bad?

Game breakingly bad? I don't know. Part of a standard internet list? Yes...yes they were.

I had an ally list before I bought them. Bikes, Spiritseer, Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent, and a Fireprism.

Yes. Because nobody played those in 6th edition!

I had my army pre 7th. I've been working on them before the new codex dropped. I used to be proud of my wraith army that I was building. Now they sit unfinished on the shelf because I can't field them. I am honestly ashamed to have that army now. I often times consider finishing it just to sell it because if I even tried to put them on the table then I'd feel like TFG.

I don't think that's necessary. Just figure out what you think is an appropriate points cost for your units and build accordingly. You're playing an 1850 points casual game? Take 1500-1600 points. I will grant you this: wraith armies are cool, and it would be a shame if people didn't play them.

Do you really want to talk to me about my character?

No. I have no idea what your character is. "Who am I to judge?"

The simple fact is, there's no wrong reason to buy or field a unit.

End of.

There is no such consensus. People all have different ideas of how good it is, many have no experience with it.

My point is this; people all have different ideas on what the right cost for a unit is. This has been true for every op unit. Go back several pages and you will see pages of such discussion for the riptide.
You can't say there is a consensus at all. Saying it's at least X isn't helpful, it needs to be a number so the eldar player can build a list.

Either you point out such a consensus, or you admit such a consensus doesn't exist and move on.



It's not about the codex, I'm talking about a single unit. This discussion has become about pretty much one unit. I'm asking how to fix a bad unit, which I'm betting will prove much harder then nerfing a good one.

For the record, I wouldn't call the chaos marine codex good at anything.

 Blacksails wrote:
The simple fact is, there's no wrong reason to buy or field a unit.

End of.

Per the rules of 7E, as long as your follow unit composition and wargear, you can literally have Nids, Chaos, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Tau all in one list.

If they're all terrible choices, cool fluffy list! If they're all the best units from each book, you're WAAC TFG!