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Lanrak wrote:
About 4 pages back I posted this,,,
''It is possible for a small group of players to put in the time and effort in to agree to have fun with 40k in the same way.

Beyond this , 40k is just not fun to play.This is the fault of GW plc , not any particular group of players.''

I believe this to be a fair assessment of the current situation.Does any one disagree?

If you do disagree please tell me why, and what facts you have to support this conclusion.

GW is guilty of oh so many things. I would agree with that. However, 40K is not a game where you can just sit down and expect entertainment to rain down on you. It requires effort, a time commitment, an attitude of fun, and some imagination. Honestly if one player brings these things it will rub off on the other if they're anything besides a complete puppy hating douche. Fortunately there aren't to many of these people. To be fair this came make almost anything fun, thought I think it's a lot easier with 40K than it is with washing dishes.

If you want to have fun with no effort stop abusing yourself by playing 40K. Personally I'm pretty attached to the game as a result of liking the fluff and misplaced hope that GW will stop being tabletop satan.

Mustela wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
About 4 pages back I posted this,,,
''It is possible for a small group of players to put in the time and effort in to agree to have fun with 40k in the same way.

Beyond this , 40k is just not fun to play.This is the fault of GW plc , not any particular group of players.''

I believe this to be a fair assessment of the current situation.Does any one disagree?

If you do disagree please tell me why, and what facts you have to support this conclusion.

GW is guilty of oh so many things. I would agree with that. However, 40K is not a game where you can just sit down and expect entertainment to rain down on you. It requires effort, a time commitment, an attitude of fun, and some imagination. Honestly if one player brings these things it will rub off on the other if they're anything besides a complete puppy hating douche. Fortunately there aren't to many of these people. To be fair this came make almost anything fun, thought I think it's a lot easier with 40K than it is with washing dishes.

If you want to have fun with no effort stop abusing yourself by playing 40K. Personally I'm pretty attached to the game as a result of liking the fluff and misplaced hope that GW will stop being tabletop satan.

I'm thinking of John Romero explaining how Daikatana wasn't bad, it was just an "expert FPS".

 Elemental wrote:

Mustela wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
About 4 pages back I posted this,,,
''It is possible for a small group of players to put in the time and effort in to agree to have fun with 40k in the same way.

Beyond this , 40k is just not fun to play.This is the fault of GW plc , not any particular group of players.''

I believe this to be a fair assessment of the current situation.Does any one disagree?

If you do disagree please tell me why, and what facts you have to support this conclusion.

GW is guilty of oh so many things. I would agree with that. However, 40K is not a game where you can just sit down and expect entertainment to rain down on you. It requires effort, a time commitment, an attitude of fun, and some imagination. Honestly if one player brings these things it will rub off on the other if they're anything besides a complete puppy hating douche. Fortunately there aren't to many of these people. To be fair this came make almost anything fun, thought I think it's a lot easier with 40K than it is with washing dishes.

If you want to have fun with no effort stop abusing yourself by playing 40K. Personally I'm pretty attached to the game as a result of liking the fluff and misplaced hope that GW will stop being tabletop satan.

I'm thinking of John Romero explaining how Daikatana wasn't bad, it was just an "expert FPS".

lol fair enough

Still reading the "Playing to Win" http://www.sirlin.net/ptw
This quote in the prologue is probably the summary for this whole thread:

"Exploring extreme situations in life can easily be socially unacceptable, morally wrong, and illegal. Competitive games require military virtues: immediacy, emergency tactics, and the end (winning) justifies the means (as long as it’s through moves the game defines as legal). Real life requires civic virtues like kindness, understanding, justice, and mercy."

No arguments here.

That quote seems to be little more than a tautology.

If you play competatively, then you need to use competitive tactics.

It assumes something to be true (the game is purely competitive), and uses that assumption to prove it (therefore the game should be played competitively).

Its certainly a valid dogma for playing the game, provided you aren't just pug-stomping scrubs. But it is one of multiple valid dogmas.

I would say that quote accurately describes the "Epic Player" or "Group B" mindset. But isn't applicable to others.

I think "group A and B" is far too simplistic to get an accurate idea of the situation. I like themed armies but I also play to win.

Bharring wrote:
That quote seems to be little more than a tautology.

If you play competatively, then you need to use competitive tactics.

It assumes something to be true (the game is purely competitive), and uses that assumption to prove it (therefore the game should be played competitively).

Its certainly a valid dogma for playing the game, provided you aren't just pug-stomping scrubs. But it is one of multiple valid dogmas.

I would say that quote accurately describes the "Epic Player" or "Group B" mindset. But isn't applicable to others.

But the game is competive, and the problem is that there isn't simply 2 seperate mindsets.
There is a spectrum between casual and pro( pro as a player that plays at the top tier of competition).
I am playing casualy, but my most commen player and I both still want to bring good lists that test each other's ability to build and to comand our little forces on the tabletop.
Taking the time to work out what's fair, balanced and what we both want to bring is dificult and time consuming.

If I want to bring my eldar I have to tip toe around this stick of balance that can snap at anytime, with my deamons I have to decide not what I want to bring But what becomes to much. That to me is killing the game here, players are just not turning up when they can't hold there ground with there chosen army.
They don't want to ask people not to bring stuff they want, since they know it's the same as they have to face and not bring what they want.
It's pushing the social contract far to much, and players have just jump and gone to other games where they don't have to walk around on glass to get a game.

There is an entire spectrum of gamers between "Power Gaming" and "Fluff Gaming". Indeed, the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

The best way is to open your pie hole for more than just another Mountain Dew and talk to your opponent about the type of game you'd like to play. If you can't come to an agreement, shake his hand anyway and go play someone else.

The part I disagree with is that the game is competitive, in the sense of an absoulute.

It is a spectrum. That is true.

There are problems. If you're moderately-competative, CW Eldar being so OP is a problem. That is also true.

However, that is not the contention here. The argument here is whether or not there are groups of people who can enjoy the game while neither being competative nor taking the effort to codify in what ways they aren't being competative.

The quote provided doesn't properly summarize the thread, because it presupposes a rather purist "Group B" mentality. So to say the quote summarizes the thread, is to dismiss "Group A".

That is why I disagree with the claim that that quote summarizes the thread. Retreading the parts where there hasn't been substantial disagreement doesn't really factor in.

A and B is far too simplistic, but I do think that 40k is a game where both players are trying to win and that that's what is expected.

It is primarily a construct used to say that things that always apply to purist "Group B" members do not necessarily apply to "Group A" members.

To that extent, the abstraction serves its purpose. Its clearly a spectrum, but that doesn't really change the conclusions.

@Bharring.
So are you saying that ONLY those player who play competitively need to use P.V?

And all the other 'casual' players, do not need P.V. or any F.O.C.
As they are not playing to win so balance is totally unimportant.
Just telling a cool story and rolling some dice to see what happens is what they are all about.(Which is a perfectly valid way to enjoy a game BTW.)

So the ONLY people who need game balance in 40k are those who see it as a competitive event in some way.
(Probably because all the objectives of the game play are mutually exclusive, this could be the majority of players ?)

If GW plc really want players to forge a narrative, they should just stop using P.V. and F.O.C completely.IMO.

Of course not, Lanark.

PV and CAD restrictions make it a game. I don't know of any meta that does away with them.

I'm not sure I follow what you're getting at, though.

I'm not arguing that balance would be a good thing. I'm arguing that the game can be fun despite the lack of balance, even without establishing "house rules".

For instance, I find Minecraft much more enjoyable in Survival mode than Creative. Even though I don't play it "competitively", the restrictions make the game more fun.

Careful Bharring, your coming perilously close to having an opinion of your own and voicing it. perilously close to free thought and thinking for yourself......

yes, it is indeed possible to have funplaying a pvp game without going for the jugular curbstomping each and every game. I'm pretty sure that if i was a fresh faced youngster who came to a shop to learn to play the game for the first time and the only ones available were of the mindset shown by many here who only took turns curbstomping me so they could cut more easy notches on their model cases and then shoved me out the door laughing at me and then tossed my broken models out after me in a trash bag (extreme but an accurate desci[tion of the attitude), I would likely just not even bother trying. now, if I were that fresh faced youngster and went in to do the same and there was someone who was eager to see a new player and taught me the background and fluff. Showed me the pros and cons of the different armies and styles and helped me learn to play the game in a fun way win or lose, I would be far more likely to stick around. I have seen that the people who play a game can chase away potential players far faster than a broken rule.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Careful Bharring, your coming perilously close to having an opinion of your own and voicing it. perilously close to free thought and thinking for yourself......

There's that negativity again. Trying to shut down other people's opinions by dismissing them as mustache twirling villains.
Not a good way to start a rational dialogue.

19 pages in and I think we're probably done for now with this one.

People just CANNOT resist taking passive aggressive, or straight up aggressive, swipes are one another.

Oh well.