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 Ghazkuul wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If you want the 'orkanaught to be a superheavy with strD melee, add 170 points.

When that particular walker was released, no one said it was costed appropriately. Let's not pretend it is, so let's stop trying to compare the two.

And with that you lost all credibility, the orkanaut is already the most over priced POS in the ork list and to make it worth anything you want to add 170pts to it to give it Super heavy status and a S D melee weapon? .....how about this. Lets switch, you can have an eldar walker with 13/13/12 and the weapons listed and give the orks the WK and we will see who wins :-P keep the stupid 170pt upgrade to

It has an ass tonne of guns, that would then fire independently, and it pays less for strD in melee than most because Ork walkers get a free attack in melee to offset the init 2. The 'orkanaught at that statline and price point would equal the shooty knight, which it should.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, 122 points to upgrade. I forgot to subtract the original +2 str ap2 melee weapon from the profile. I apologise.

Edit: don't forget, the 'orkanaught would get the smash, stomp, and twelve inch movement, as well as immunity to the damage chart barring explodes results. For about 370 points, that is a lot of firepower that doesn't get wasted because the guns aren't designed to shoot the same target.

6 S5 Ap5 Rng 36 shots...garbage
2 S8 Ap3 range 24 rokkitz = garbage
1 S8 AP2 Rng 36 small blast = good, but it gets hot
1 S8 Ap2 Rng 18 shot gets hot = garbage.

So its "ass tonne of guns" all suck except one. its already SEVERELY over priced. And giving it a 170 point upgrade would make it cost around 450pts not 370.

ZERO strength D shots, not a jump Gargantuan creature like the stupid WK, +1 attack is worth init 2 huh? really? how about we take all your Init away and give your WK Init 2 ? nope ? dont want that? thats because it sucks so stop lying.

You missed where I redacted the 170 down to 122. Those rokkits are twin linked I thought, and I personally believe the wraithknight with jump should be 355 points. I am at work, and can't currently look at the points for the 'orkanaughts, so I don't recall what the final tally would be. But I believe my point still stands.

If the wraithknight was equipped with the suncannon on it at 355 points, and the morkanaught was a 6 HP superheavy walker with a strD melee weapon at +122 points, which would you rather have? At that point they are actually performing the same job, killing elite infantry and medium vehicles at range while threatening pretty much everything in the game in melee.

They shouldn't be that far off from each other, especially if you add two of the shoulder mounted guns to the wraithknight.

rokkitz aren't TL and the only thing capable of killing "elite" infantry on the Morkanaut is the KMK which is rng 36 and it over heats......and with BS 2 it scatters A LOT. So how is that remotely close to being worth over 400pts?

What is the actual cost of the morkanaught? Cause I thought it was around 260. That plus 122 equals 382. It only gets above 400 points if the morkanaught is sitting at 280 points.

Besides,(and I reiterate) no one believes the gork and morkanaughts are priced correctly. I could see you wanting them and the wraithknight to be costed equal if people thought the walker is good, but why should the wraithknight be relegated to the level of a notoriously bad unit? Your new big shiny being treated unfairly by the company doesn't mean mine should also.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Jump is worth 10 points per wound/hull point on vehicles and monstrous creatures. The wraithknight is not as strong as the lancer, their guns aren't even close to being the same strength. The closer analogy would be two starcannons so 4 str6 ap2 shots at 36" vs 6 str7 ap2 at 18". The lancer also drops my attack percentile by a third, and has the same defense against me in melee besides. They absolutely should not be equal points. The wraithknight with the jump ability and the two starcannons should be 395points. Without jump, 335 is fine.

Also, why do you keep comming onto the proposed rules forum and telling me to stop making up rules? I could have sworn that was the purpose of this particular forum...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the point cost to bring str 10 to strD is 30 points per attack/shot. My algorithm works on superheavies, I just made sure when someone built one custom it would cost about 35 points extra for the privilege.

I didn't tell you to stop making up rules I said your numbers are bogus and they are. They don't even match the actual upgrade costs gw charges.
Furthermore multiple people already showed in in detail how the wrsithknight is more survivable then the lancer in most situations. Your whining "nuh uh" statements doesn't change that. Ffs I just gave you a straight comparison list showing you all the things the wrsithknight is better.
The gun is stronger however has a much shorter range I pointed this out however it is in every other area the wraith knight is better.
Bottom line is your numbers are trash no one buys them. They are all over the place and even you can't keep track of the nonesensyou write.
The wrsithknight is severely undercosted even using your own bogus numbers. Youre arguing telling me I'm wrong and saying the lancer which costs 400 should not cost the same as the wraithknight and then go and say the wrsithknight with two star cannons should cost 395??? Wtf are you dense. That's basically the same amount and you don't even include the 15pt scat laser upgrade. I don't give a crap what nonsense you want to keep writing. The fact is I agree with you the wrsithknight should cost 395. That is all I've been saying the last few days arguing with you and your random made up numbers on cost.

In the end your opinion and made up numbers don't matter. Most major tournaments and store events who mostly just follow itc rules. Are either going to outright ban all superheavies or modify str d and limit builds to 1LOW, so in the end it's getting nerfed to a more appropriate cost.

Drop the Colossal rule on the Greater Axe of Khorne, lets see who laugh now with Init 9 D hits...

gungo wrote:

Well then you are comparing other fw lows the power issue is moot unless you are talking power vs cost because that opens up a wholes other can of worms and with apoc type weapons not normally used in regular 40k and even in that comparison the wraithknight is horrible undercosted as the cheapest gargantuan/super heavy by a long shot. The closest comparison is the lancer and even that unit as shown above costs 100 points more.

I think you need to ally in some punctuation for your sentence. I hear that the basic subject, verb, predicate detachment works wonders.

gungo wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Jump is worth 10 points per wound/hull point on vehicles and monstrous creatures. The wraithknight is not as strong as the lancer, their guns aren't even close to being the same strength. The closer analogy would be two starcannons so 4 str6 ap2 shots at 36" vs 6 str7 ap2 at 18". The lancer also drops my attack percentile by a third, and has the same defense against me in melee besides. They absolutely should not be equal points. The wraithknight with the jump ability and the two starcannons should be 395points. Without jump, 335 is fine.

Also, why do you keep comming onto the proposed rules forum and telling me to stop making up rules? I could have sworn that was the purpose of this particular forum...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the point cost to bring str 10 to strD is 30 points per attack/shot. My algorithm works on superheavies, I just made sure when someone built one custom it would cost about 35 points extra for the privilege.

I didn't tell you to stop making up rules I said your numbers are bogus and they are. They don't even match the actual upgrade costs gw charges.
Furthermore multiple people already showed in in detail how the wrsithknight is more survivable then the lancer in most situations. Your whining "nuh uh" statements doesn't change that. Ffs I just gave you a straight comparison list showing you all the things the wrsithknight is better.
The gun is stronger however has a much shorter range I pointed this out however it is in every other area the wraith knight is better.
Bottom line is your numbers are trash no one buys them. They are all over the place and even you can't keep track of the nonesensyou write.
The wrsithknight is severely undercosted even using your own bogus numbers. Youre arguing telling me I'm wrong and saying the lancer which costs 400 should not cost the same as the wraithknight and then go and say the wrsithknight with two star cannons should cost 395??? Wtf are you dense. That's basically the same amount and you don't even include the 15pt scat laser upgrade. I don't give a crap what nonsense you want to keep writing. The fact is I agree with you the wrsithknight should cost 395. That is all I've been saying the last few days arguing with you and your random made up numbers on cost.

In the end your opinion and made up numbers don't matter. Most major tournaments and store events who mostly just follow itc rules. Are either going to outright ban all superheavies or modify str d and limit builds to 1LOW, so in the end it's getting nerfed to a more appropriate cost.

What point cost to upgrade are you talking about? The heavy stubber is 5 points, the gauntlet is a 10 point upgrade to the normal reaper chainsword, and my numbers say that an extra strD attack on the profile is worth 30 points. My numbers haven't changed, I made a calculation error that I rectified immediately. Hell, I even apologised for the slip.

18" isn't a much shorter range when the two units in question are attempting to get into melee with one another. Also, I distinctly recall you telling me to "stop making stuff up" and stop saying the wraithknight isn't undercosted.

Now, in a gameplay scenario, with my points putting the wraithknight with dual star cannons(can't have both those and the scatter lasers, hence I didn't add the points) at 395 points versus the lancer on a 4"x4" table with citadel woods in the center and one in the middle of each quarter. Simple, equal footing and point totals.

In order for the wraithknight to win, he has to charge the imperial knight so it doesn't swing back at the same time (otherwise the -1 to attack swings the fight to the lancer's favor.) However, the imperial knight could stick himself in any sort of terrain which would drop the wraithknight to init1. The same goes in reverse, however the lancer has a trick up his sleeve, his gun can ACTUALLY HURT THE WRAITHKNIGHT! Not only that, but if it does, he can then charge and they would still both be swinging at the same time, meaning the lancer has the better odds of winning again. Let's say the lancer and wraithknight never opt to close for some reason, the lancer can kill the wraithknight at range, if the wraithknight stays outside of the lancer's range, then they tie. In EVERY circumstance but one (where the wraithknight charges the lancer and it isn't going through terrain) ,in a one on one match up the lancer wins or it is a draw. Weird how I think they should be equal points when you add anun to the wraithknight and it is paying the 60 points I think it should for its mobility.

You can point at the lancer and say "It's objectively worse in every way" all day, that doesn't make it true. We aren't talking about how well melta, armor bane, or haywire affect them. We are talking about them in a one on one situation utilizing gameplay scenarios, and in all but two situations the lancer wins, the other two are a draw and a loss. I think that should make the lancer worth 5 more points, and I don't think that's an unfair statement.

Now, on a personal note, I have never made a rebuttal in a whining or nonsensical way, your attempt to diminish my stance by drawing a comparison between me and a petulant child is insulting at the least. My math is not wrong, you haven't proven it is. Your only retort so far is saying " those numbers don't make sense" and that I "need to stop making things up". Those aren't useful in a debate, they are the tools of someone who refuses to admit when someone else has a point.

#GetApocOutOfMy40k

Wraithknight
Same base stats, except 5 Wounds, Monsterous Creature

Base cost 220pts for Sword and Shield(Sword is only S10)
+20pts Upgrade Sword to Suncannon
+40pts Upgrade to Heavy Wraithcannons(S10 AP2 Distort)
+15pts Scatter Laser

Add a Special a Rule Wraithbone Resistance: Poison, Snipers, and Fleshbane never wound a Wraith Construct on a roll better than a 5+.


I feel this would have been a much more balanced and cost appropriate Wraithknight, this is what I though the 6th Edition WK should of been and I haven't changed my mind.

Am I the only one who likes the OPs proposal about implementing warp charges to make the WK work? that would require... actual synergy!

And the points he made about that also taking with it counters like sniping the psykers controlling it off the board and winning psychic yatzee to controll the WK are also valid.

Make the Jump aspect a expensive upgrade.

Its actauly really really simple. wait 2 years. look at all the other gargantMC's other armys get or ways to deal with them. Think is grav will still work fairly good vs 1.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Make the Jump aspect a expensive upgrade.

+1

I say around 60 points. Apparently that isn't good enough.

 Zagman wrote:
#GetApocOutOfMy40k

Wraithknight
Same base stats, except 5 Wounds, Monsterous Creature

Base cost 220pts for Sword and Shield(Sword is only S10)
+20pts Upgrade Sword to Suncannon
+40pts Upgrade to Heavy Wraithcannons(S10 AP2 Distort)
+15pts Scatter Laser

Add a Special a Rule Wraithbone Resistance: Poison, Snipers, and Fleshbane never wound a Wraith Construct on a roll better than a 5+.


I feel this would have been a much more balanced and cost appropriate Wraithknight, this is what I though the 6th Edition WK should of been and I haven't changed my mind.

I like this. But I think you meant "can never wound a wraith construct on a roll WORSE than a 5+ right?"

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
#GetApocOutOfMy40k

Wraithknight
Same base stats, except 5 Wounds, Monsterous Creature

Base cost 220pts for Sword and Shield(Sword is only S10)
+20pts Upgrade Sword to Suncannon
+40pts Upgrade to Heavy Wraithcannons(S10 AP2 Distort)
+15pts Scatter Laser

Add a Special a Rule Wraithbone Resistance: Poison, Snipers, and Fleshbane never wound a Wraith Construct on a roll better than a 5+.


I feel this would have been a much more balanced and cost appropriate Wraithknight, this is what I though the 6th Edition WK should of been and I haven't changed my mind.

I like this. But I think you meant "can never wound a wraith construct on a roll WORSE than a 5+ right?"

Thanks. I meant that Poison only wounds on a 5+ instead of a 3+ or 4+. Just some flavor for Wraithbone, and Lessing of the extreme RPS.

Inventing some midpoint between MC and GMC for one model seems unwise. If IKs are Superheavies, then the WK always felt like a GMC. Clearly, the points are far too low for it, but otherwise, why shouldn't it be a GMC?

(And yes, the Orkanaut should probably be a SuperHeavy too, for the appropriate points.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In theory, would Wraithlords and Wraithguard also get Wraithbone?

Bharring wrote:
Inventing some midpoint between MC and GMC for one model seems unwise. If IKs are Superheavies, then the WK always felt like a GMC. Clearly, the points are far too low for it, but otherwise, why shouldn't it be a GMC?

(And yes, the Orkanaut should probably be a SuperHeavy too, for the appropriate points.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In theory, would Wraithlords and Wraithguard also get Wraithbone?

Keeping it a GMC and just adding 100pts to its cost is always a viable alternative. It's still better than IKs, but is costed in the same ballpark at least. It's toughness, mobility, and two D Shots per turn would have been tolerable on a 395pt GMC, but certainly not for 295.


My thoughts was yes, it should be something Wraith Constructs have... And I'm also working under the assumption D goes back to Distort.

If we were re-envisioning Wraith constructs, I would love to see Wraithguard get Slow and Purposeful. They have always been a textbook example of that, so its quite odd that they don't have that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Wraithlord is often compared to a Dreadnaught. After all, T8 is good. Probably better than AV12.

But isn't AV13 better than T8?

The Wraithknight should be more expensive than it is now, but is it really worth more than an IK?

Stock, it gets 2 ranged-D shots. Those are really scary. But isn't a 2-shot melta blast also really scary? Not as scary to the Knights, but the IK still has S melee, whereas the WK has S10.

With S melee, the WK has better CC than an WK, but no real shooting attacks.

With Suncannon, its basically 3 S6 small blasts vs 2 large s8 melta blasts.

The WK can kill IKs better than IKs can, but the IK does better against parking lots and massed infantry.

Basically, the WK hunts superheavies, and the IK kills everything else.

I was thinking +50 or maybe +75 stock for the WK might fix things.

Bharring wrote:
Inventing some midpoint between MC and GMC for one model seems unwise. If IKs are Superheavies, then the WK always felt like a GMC. Clearly, the points are far too low for it, but otherwise, why shouldn't it be a GMC?

(And yes, the Orkanaut should probably be a SuperHeavy too, for the appropriate points.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In theory, would Wraithlords and Wraithguard also get Wraithbone?

and what would your "appropriate points" be for the Orkanauts? Im already paying 300pts for a kitted out Morkanaut and the other suggestion was tacking on another 120pts, giving me a 420pt model (more then the WK) for sub par shooting and a S10 AP1 INIT 2 melee weapon. The only way to make a Morkanaut playable would be to give it about a 20pt bump and make it a super heavy, and then of course were treading into the territory of why are Super heavies so prevalent in this game.

The worst part about this is that a lot of people keep saying "Wait your turn" meaning that soon everyone will have a new codex and it will entail all sorts of new answers to the WK and will probably include a WK type model in the army...unfortunately, from past experience, I know my Orks will not be receiving anything remotely as OP as anything the Eldar current possess.

I mean really, the only thing the Orks have ever been able to boast as being OP was the Battle Wagonz' Deff Rolla, and everyone bitched and moaned about that so long that GW took it from inflicting 2D6 hits on a model/unit that is Death or Glorying down to D3 hits.and of course because GW didn't want more things in the games that can kill precious 3+ armor, the Death Rolla went from 12 possible attacks with NO AP to 3 possible attacks with AP4. Yet another wonderful Ap4 weapon that hte orks have literally dozens of.

So anyway, thats my rant about why I hate eldar complaining about the WK so much and about how my orks get no love. enjoy

I thought the person who suggested the outrageous price walked it back later?

Im not familiar enough with the Orkanauts to know what their price should be. I am familiar enough with them to say they are currently overcosted, though.

If you wanted the 'naughts to keep the str10 ap2 melee weapon, then it only tacks 32 points onto the beasty. Upgrading str 10 to strD costs 30 points per shot(only three of the 'naughts attacks pay the points to balance out their init of two)

So, if you want just str10 ap2 in melee but superheavy status, 32 points. StrD in melee, as a superheavy 122 points more than the base 'naught. If you just wanted to be cheeky and add strD to the normal 'naught, it would be 90 more points.

Edit: because it didn't look the complete thought I originally perceived it to be. Early mornings suck

Bharring wrote:
If we were re-envisioning Wraith constructs, I would love to see Wraithguard get Slow and Purposeful. They have always been a textbook example of that, so its quite odd that they don't have that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Wraithlord is often compared to a Dreadnaught. After all, T8 is good. Probably better than AV12.

But isn't AV13 better than T8?

The Wraithknight should be more expensive than it is now, but is it really worth more than an IK?

Stock, it gets 2 ranged-D shots. Those are really scary. But isn't a 2-shot melta blast also really scary? Not as scary to the Knights, but the IK still has S melee, whereas the WK has S10.

With S melee, the WK has better CC than an WK, but no real shooting attacks.

With Suncannon, its basically 3 S6 small blasts vs 2 large s8 melta blasts.

The WK can kill IKs better than IKs can, but the IK does better against parking lots and massed infantry.

Basically, the WK hunts superheavies, and the IK kills everything else.

I was thinking +50 or maybe +75 stock for the WK might fix things.

Slow and Purposeful would be good.

Long Raged D, 48" effective Threat with D. And the Wraithknight is more durable than an IK. D in melee is not as valuable as D at Range. And even without the Sword, it does still have Stomp, and its S10 does a number on IKs and anythign else already.

You are correct, the Sword/Shield and Suncannon are not worth what the D strength Heavy Wraithcannons are....


If we leave the Wraithknight a GMC it should cost....

300pts Sword/Shield

340pts Suncannon/Shield

380pts Dual D WraithCannons.

That would put it approximately in the right price range, it has to pay for its immense durability somehow, I mean its over 50% more durable than the 6th Edition version and that ran 240pts.

300 seems a bit low on the first option to me, but I'm not a WK expert.

Bharring wrote:
300 seems a bit low on the first option to me, but I'm not a WK expert.

Its fine, its inline with an Imperial Knight that didn't have a ranged weapon. More than likely it'd be 330 for a pair of Scatter Lasers, which isn't too bad. You're mostly paying for duarability, because even if it wasn't D in CC it still has stomp and kills whatever it hits. Kind of like the 6th Edition one did without stomp. And the 6th Edition Wriathknihgt with only a Sword and Shield was never seen and wasn't worth the 240pt pricetag.

Your points are entirely convincing.

Bharring wrote:
Your points are entirely convincing.

Haha, I thought so!

380 points for wraith cannons is too much. It can only threaten two MODEL per shooting phase. Nothing huge on the table = wasted potential on shots.

The guns on the imperial knight threaten a much wider variety of units, and therefore cost more due to versatility. I feel The wraithknight should be 255 points for all variants, period.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
380 points for wraith cannons is too much. It can only threaten two MODEL per shooting phase. Nothing huge on the table = wasted potential on shots.

The guns on the imperial knight threaten a much wider variety of units, and therefore cost more due to versatility. I feel The wraithknight should be 255 points for all variants, period.

And the Guns on the IK are meant to threaten different targets. If there are vehicles, MCs, GMCs, SHVs, or expensive model units on the table it is not a wasted potential on shots. We could make the same argument for the night, if there aren't are only GMCs on the other side of the table, its wasted potential on shots.

The Wraith Cannons are immensely good at what they do, and that is take out big hard targets. The IKs weapons are great at what they do, everything that isn't a super hard target, or everything with a shorter range +really good vs vehicles.

How much is a 1/5 chance of removing any model from the game from play every turn worth? That is what the Wraith Cannons are worth. Not to mention everything they will kill that isn't on a 6.

I don't understand why the Wcannon WK is the default build. It is the most potent. IMO, the D-glaive/Shield should be the default @ 300pts, free to swap D-glaive for Suncannon, +50pts to swap D-glaive/Shield for 2 Wcannons.

How interesting would it be if you could trade 1 Wcannon for either D-glaive or shield?