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Martel732 wrote:
Guardsman are more efficient at soaking scatterlaser fire. Much more efficient than meqs.

True that but MEQs are hardly points efficient at soaking any kind of fire. That's why they're almost always in transports or dropping in to mini maize their exposure to fire. If the scar bikes waste their turn as a 270 point unit popping a 35 point rhino, good. If you get to drop in and take the first shot at them even better.

Honestly the big thing I thought wasn't so hard to handle was the WK. I was thinking it had an invuln but no, it just gets a 5+. And the Strength D is only two shots, sure it sucks if a tank gets aced (Pasks buddy did die to a 6 turn 2) but it's like, okay, that's at best gonna be half his points value and it's the same odds as if someone shot me with a melta or something and one melta gunner is not even close to 300 points.

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Guardsman are more efficient at soaking scatterlaser fire. Much more efficient than meqs.

True that but MEQs are hardly points efficient at soaking any kind of fire. That's why they're almost always in transports or dropping in to mini maize their exposure to fire. If the scar bikes waste their turn as a 270 point unit popping a 35 point rhino, good. If you get to drop in and take the first shot at them even better.

Honestly the big thing I thought wasn't so hard to handle was the WK. I was thinking it had an invuln but no, it just gets a 5+. And the Strength D is only two shots, sure it sucks if a tank gets aced (Pasks buddy did die to a 6 turn 2) but it's like, okay, that's at best gonna be half his points value and it's the same odds as if someone shot me with a melta or something and one melta gunner is not even close to 300 points.

They're paying to frag you from a safe range. Melta has a huge opportunity cost and usually results in the death of the user.

You are correct that meqs are not point efficient in general, but are particularly poor against S6+ High AP High ROF fire. This kind of fire ignores the T4 and allows units like guardsmen to still take an armor save. On top of this, it can kill marine transports.

So no one is going to address my problem that I need to pay out the ass for 12 TL'd S6 AP- shots with only twelve inch range for a single flyrant that has rather hard and fast limits on how many you can use (all options to get more than two from your first CAD come with substantial taxes) while the Eldar player gets a unit with a threat range pretty much identical in size that gets absurdly more dakka per points?

And before you point out TL, the Eldar have guide flying out their butts.

Martel732 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Guardsman are more efficient at soaking scatterlaser fire. Much more efficient than meqs.

True that but MEQs are hardly points efficient at soaking any kind of fire. That's why they're almost always in transports or dropping in to mini maize their exposure to fire. If the scar bikes waste their turn as a 270 point unit popping a 35 point rhino, good. If you get to drop in and take the first shot at them even better.

Honestly the big thing I thought wasn't so hard to handle was the WK. I was thinking it had an invuln but no, it just gets a 5+. And the Strength D is only two shots, sure it sucks if a tank gets aced (Pasks buddy did die to a 6 turn 2) but it's like, okay, that's at best gonna be half his points value and it's the same odds as if someone shot me with a melta or something and one melta gunner is not even close to 300 points.

They're paying to frag you from a safe range. Melta has a huge opportunity cost and usually results in the death of the user.

You are correct that meqs are not point efficient in general, but are particularly poor against S6+ High AP High ROF fire. This kind of fire ignores the T4 and allows units like guardsmen to still take an armor save. On top of this, it can kill marine transports.

Won't kill Landraiders. Much harder to kill the Flying Landraiders, 6's to hit, 6's to glance, Jink.

 Kain wrote:
So no one is going to address my problem that I need to pay out the ass for 12 TL'd S6 AP- shots with only twelve inch range for a single flyrant that has rather hard and fast limits on how many you can use (all options to get more than two from your first CAD come with substantial taxes) while the Eldar player gets a unit with a threat range pretty much identical in size that gets absurdly more dakka per points?

And before you point out TL, the Eldar have guide flying out their butts.

They can't address it. Because the scatbike is indefensible. But they might try anyway.

MEQ are actually quite effective vs high-S high-AP. The problem is that ScatterBikes can spam so much of it. If it shoots MEQs off the table, it'll shoot most GEQs off the table, too.

Horde style GEQs might have it a little easier, because they are coated to be thrown away. But non-horde GEQs (Kalabites, Wyches, Guardians, Storm Troopers, Fire Warriors) have it much worse than MEQs.

Remember, for every 2 14ppm SM that die, 3 DAs or 4 Kalabites die.

Bharring wrote:
MEQ are actually quite effective vs high-S high-AP. The problem is that ScatterBikes can spam so much of it. If it shoots MEQs off the table, it'll shoot most GEQs off the table, too.

Horde style GEQs might have it a little easier, because they are coated to be thrown away. But non-horde GEQs (Kalabites, Wyches, Guardians, Storm Troopers, Fire Warriors) have it much worse than MEQs.

Remember, for every 2 14ppm SM that die, 3 DAs or 4 Kalabites die.

Not quite. Each cleared wound against the guardsmen only removes 5 pts, whereas each cleared wound against meq removes 14 pts. The guardsmen is only twice as likely to die. This is the exact problem terminators face, except at a lower price point. That's more than a little easier; that's a LOT easier. Since it is impossible to survive against the scat bikes, all you can do is limit how much is lost, and meqs are miserable at that.

MEQs aren't effective against S6+ high ROF because the T4 they paid for goes right out the window. Everyone knows this and that's why S6+ is so popular.

I don't know about kalabites, but I don't expect to see a DA now for a long time. Why have them when you can have a scat bike?

Fire Warriors die faster per point.
Pathfinders do to.
Kalabites.
Wyches.
Storm Troopers.
Scions.
SM Scouts.

Guardsmen and Orks in decent cover - horde GEQ that rely on cheap bodies to soak firepower - don't. But that's what they pay for.

Heck, every Eldar troop - even EJB - die faster per shot per point than Marines.

I agree with the conclusion - scatter bikers are crazy good. I just disagree with the math.

What I wrote about guardsmen is absolutely correct. I didn't drag all those other units into the discussion. If the poster had been using those units. the outcome would likely have been different.

There's a reason I hardly ever see those units you listed other than scouts, pathfinder, and firewarriors.

"Heck, every Eldar troop - even EJB - die faster per shot per point than Marines. "

But the marines don't have the firepower to take advantage of this.

Orks, by the way, suffer tremendously against S6 as well because it ignores their T4.

"Guardsmen and Orks in decent cover - horde GEQ that rely on cheap bodies to soak firepower - don't. But that's what they pay for. "

As I said, the Orks not so much. But the guardsmen getting that 5+ is huge against scatterlasers.

Marines are poor soakers of S6 compared to Guardsmen. I'd agree with that. I wouldn't say they are generally poor soakers of S6 compared to most.

Comparing geq and meq durability against scatbike spam is like comparing grot's and boy'z durability against a deathstrike missile launcher. It doesn't really matter if you loose a bit fewer points - you still loose it all.

Bharring wrote:
Marines are poor soakers of S6 compared to Guardsmen. I'd agree with that. I wouldn't say they are generally poor soakers of S6 compared to most.

Then it becomes purely a function of armor save vs cost unless the unit in question is somehow T5. Our definition of "most" diverges at this point. I'm concerned about the units I actually play against, and you are looking at all possible units.

While S6 fire would be great against scatbikes, the marines are quite poor at generating high STR ranged fire. Even marine devastators are totally outclassed by scatbikes, which are troops.


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 koooaei wrote:
Comparing geq and meq durability against scatbike spam is like comparing grot's and boy'z durability against a deathstrike missile launcher. It doesn't really matter if you loose a bit fewer points - you still loose it all.

But if the IG loses fewer pts, they have more to shoot back on their turn. This is a compounding advantage over several turns.

I'm agreeing that ScatterBikes are OP. And that Marines aren't a counter to them.

We have very different metas. I see more Eldar, DE, Tau, and SM (Scouts) combined than IG and Orks.

Bharring wrote:
I'm agreeing that ScatterBikes are OP. And that Marines aren't a counter to them.

We have very different metas. I see more Eldar, DE, Tau, and SM (Scouts) combined than IG and Orks.

When the BA codex came out, I was seeing a lot of pretty much everything. But now it's back to Eldar everywhere. Just like when Taudar ruled the roost. Not that the Eldar ever really stopped ruling. Come to think of it, I'd almost hail the Riptide as a counter the scatbikes if I didn't know that they were just going to be D-weaponed off the table. Everything that is strong against S6 is an ideal target for ranged-D. This situation puts me in brain-lock.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're the best troop choice in the entire game now.

Better than a quite a few Non-Troop units as well.

Median Trace wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're the best troop choice in the entire game now.

Better than a quite a fee Non-Troop units as well.

They're better than any BA unit. In any slot.

They have always been one of the best Troops in the game. Now they have teeth to back it up.

I love when people compare Eldar to Marines without considering how generalized Marines are supposed to be. Marines have ASKNF, grenades and access to Drop Pods. Eldar are very specialized. Unfortunately, this edition (and many previous editions) favors specialized units over generalized, all-comers units.

After some much of this complaining, I am actually glad Eldar are OP. Maybe it will encourage people to finally give up on the shooting game and focus on some CC units. My Daemons never lost a game against 6th ed Eldar because everything was in CC by turn 2-3.

 Galef wrote:
They have always been one of the best Troops in the game. Now they have teeth to back it up.

I love when people compare Eldar to Marines without considering how generalized Marines are supposed to be. Marines have ASKNF, grenades and access to Drop Pods. Eldar are very specialized. Unfortunately, this edition (and many previous editions) favors specialized units over generalized, all-comers units.

After some much of this complaining, I am actually glad Eldar are OP. Maybe it will encourage people to finally give up on the shooting game and focus on some CC units. My Daemons never lost a game against 6th ed Eldar because everything was in CC by turn 2-3.

You weren't playing the right Eldar. By turn 2-3, many opponents didn't have a list left against Eldar. 2++ rerollable Screamerstar being a notable exception for demons.

ATSKNF is almost a hindrance at this point, drop pods are a total crap shoot, and grenades rely on living to use them. Some generalists. More like shiny targets.

I thought the "right" 6th ed Eldar was Serpent Spam with multiple WKs? Yeah, my hound-rush flying circus hybrid list (that DID NOT have Screamerstar) tabled about 8 of those lists player by different people.

You cant tell me that I am "that" good of a player. Charge Eldar with fast stuff=win

 Galef wrote:
I thought the "right" 6th ed Eldar was Serpent Spam with multiple WKs? Yeah, my hound-rush flying circus hybrid list (that DID NOT have Screamerstar) tabled about 8 of those lists player by different people.

You cant tell me that I am "that" good of a player. Charge Eldar with fast stuff=win

Interesting.

 Galef wrote:
I thought the "right" 6th ed Eldar was Serpent Spam with multiple WKs? Yeah, my hound-rush flying circus hybrid list (that DID NOT have Screamerstar) tabled about 8 of those lists player by different people.

You cant tell me that I am "that" good of a player. Charge Eldar with fast stuff=win

I had exactly the same experience with my daemons in 6th edition too.

Hounds, grinders and Be'lakor could all handle it.

I'm not as confident in the chances of melee rush builds against the new dex though.

Jetbikes are a tougher challenge for daemon than serpent spam though, due to their increased firepower and better mobility. That 2d6 assault move count for a lot. Overwatch is something that serpents didn't do either.

New Wraithknights pose a bigger threat than ever, to daemons more than most.
Tarpits no longer work, and stomp attacks have the potential to cause some serious combat resolution scores.

Finally, D-scythes are a possibility now. They alone have the potential to stop many daemon units.

I am glad you brought up Belakor & the Grinders. My list had those as well.

I think it will definitely be harder to table the 7th ed Eldar, but that is a good thing. Daemon rush lists will still be a good counter to Eldar though.

Heck, I have seen Nids do some crazy things to scatterbikes. Drop Devilgaunts or DakkaFexes near the bikes and they die. Dakkaflyrants are an excellent counter to Scatterbikes.

If you string out a large unit of Guants (so that pile-in moves do not bring all of them clumped up around the WK) you can tie up the WK for at least a turn. 2 average stomps would not kill all the Guants this way. If only 1 Guant lives, then the unit has done its job.

Oh, good to know that daemons could handle them. I guess, it's ballance, eh. Too bad when you're playing IG, Orkses, Horde nids and guyz like that. They're not worthy of 'ballance'.

If you stopped playing Paper all the time and started playing Rock, you might actually beat Scissors every now and then

So looking back at that IG vs Eldar fight, it just occurred to me that the Eldar units all had 36" range and the IG had just wyverns that could reach that far, yet somehow the IG were able to stay behind their cover and shoot them up with their shorter range guns... see everything is fine. Just make a gentleman's agreement that the eldar have to charge forward to close range without taking cover.

 Galef wrote:
I am glad you brought up Belakor & the Grinders. My list had those as well.

I think it will definitely be harder to table the 7th ed Eldar, but that is a good thing. Daemon rush lists will still be a good counter to Eldar though.

Heck, I have seen Nids do some crazy things to scatterbikes. Drop Devilgaunts or DakkaFexes near the bikes and they die. Dakkaflyrants are an excellent counter to Scatterbikes.

If you string out a large unit of Guants (so that pile-in moves do not bring all of them clumped up around the WK) you can tie up the WK for at least a turn. 2 average stomps would not kill all the Guants this way. If only 1 Guant lives, then the unit has done its job.

Check my thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/644798.page#7790687

Any ways I don't feel grinders are that good against 7ed daemons any more they are too slow. And if you DS him with cursed earth close to Eldars, he'll probably just get one turn of shooting in before biting the dust. Baleful torrent is only AP4, while jet bikes and WG has 3+ armor. Also D-scythes and D-cannons will eat him up and the jet bikes can easily jump behind and unload S6 on rear armor easily glancing him to death. Go with heldrakes instead, they'll roast the crap out of jet bikes and WGs and its S7 vector strike is good against Eldar paper airplanes and other invisible deathstars.


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And ignore kooaei... posting this crap on a tactics thread.

"Thinking on tactix against eldar is like trying to penetrate a brick wall with your bare hands. Yep, it's probably possible but why bother?"

Fething troll

Any ways I don't feel grinders are that good against 7ed daemons any more they are too slow.

I disagree. Slaanesh grinders were always the best pick, and they are certainly fast enough to apply pressure.

Even against good saves I've found the torrent flamer to be useful, however it is perfectly viable to run it without an extra weapon.

Grinders' strength is that they are totally immune to scatbikes, letting a daemon player gain an amount of board control.

D-scythes are a new issue, but D cannons and wraithknights were always a threat before.

Grinders actually have a place - both slaanesh and nurgle (or plaguehulks in case of nurgle). Av13 makes them immune to scatbikes, 5++ and cover helps out against s: D and melta a bit. But cheap D-weapons will still be dangerous. However, WG have to get close so treat it as a trade-off and WK...well, pray he misses a lot and doesn't get a 6 while you pass your covers/invuls. Not much else you can really do.

And as mentioned above, slaanesh grinders are pretty fast for footsloging walkers and rending torrent works fine against eldar fleshy stuff. Nurgle grinders pack some shooting and good cover saves. On the other hand, if you're sitting in a ruin, getting 2+ cover and shooting a cannon across the board, it's highly probable that you'll get ignored while he eliminates the rest of the army. Still an option, right?


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Also, ignore me, i'm posting crap and i'm a fethig troll


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 Galef wrote:
If you stopped playing Paper all the time and started playing Rock, you might actually beat Scissors every now and then

That's the exact problem i was referring to. You SHOULD be able to hold your ground with any tac force. This stuff about rocks and scissors is only good when you need everything in the army to make it fuction properly. Right now some armies need some specific rocks with allied rocks with going unbound for more rocks to beat other's tac list. I'm not saying it's impossible to beat eldar with orks, ig or nids. Nope, ofc it's possible and it's quite doable. But not with a tac list. I'm pretty sure that orks can handle mass bikes and WK with massed gunline artillery behind ADL and lots of single deffkoptas to fly around the map distracting, eating fire and capping points and a few truckboyz hidden behind blos to counter jetbikes willing to rush pesky grotgunners in mellee. Would it be a tac army for orks? Ofc not. It would work only in this and a few more cases. And that's what's wrong with it.

Don't know, just doesn't feel right. I believe that it's a game design mistake and not something good.

 koooaei wrote:

 Galef wrote:
If you stopped playing Paper all the time and started playing Rock, you might actually beat Scissors every now and then

That's the exact problem i was referring to. You SHOULD be able to hold your ground with any tac force. This stuff about rocks and scissors is only good when you need everything in the army to make it fuction properly. Right now some armies need some specific rocks with allied rocks with going unbound for more rocks to beat other's tac list. I'm not saying it's impossible to beat eldar with orks, ig or nids. Nope, ofc it's possible and it's quite doable. But not with a tac list. I'm pretty sure that orks can handle mass bikes and WK with massed gunline artillery behind ADL and lots of single deffkoptas to fly around the map distracting, eating fire and capping points and a few truckboyz hidden behind blos to counter jetbikes willing to rush pesky grotgunners in mellee. Would it be a tac army for orks? Ofc not. It would work only in this and a few more cases. And that's what's wrong with it.

Don't know, just doesn't feel right. I believe that it's a game design mistake and not something good.

This is exactly how I feel about Imperial Knights when they came out. Most armies have to tailor their list to have a chance at playing a decent game, much less be able to win. 7th ed has killed competitive play, but I still think it is the most "fun" edition I have ever played. I will miss the "all-comers" list, may it rest-in-peace.

Soul grinder is not immune to scatbikes... unless your putting it in a corner somewhere sitting on a objective. So we talking about using it to chase after scat bikes, it has rear AV11 it will be susceptible to shots by scat bikes. A unit of 5 scatbikes will glance it 2.96 times after saves from behind, 2 units will kill it in one turn. And its BS3, the only weapon its good with is the baleful torrent.

If it runs into D-scythes its dead and will easily lose to a WK in CC.

And its not very TAC against other MEQs armies either, too many grav, meltas, and tau fire power in the top meta. You have better chance DS a plague hulk(if FW is allow) tho, at least you can kill something with its AP3 template and hope it survive the turn to shoot again. Sorry you just don't see much soul grinders in top tourney lists.