Eldar jetbikes really worth all the tears?

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**stopcallingmechief**

th3maninblak wrote:
Everyone complained about white scar bikes when they came out, particularly with grav. A grav biker is 36 points. An eldar scatbike is 27 points and is every bit as good.

for 9 more points you get +1 s, +1 T , better LD (with sarge), ATSKNF, and a gun that is significantly better though shorter ranged, skilled rider. i would take grav gun white scar bikes over scat bikes every single time. both are some of the best troops in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Truth118 wrote:
Some people consider a Flyrant to be competitive.

Windriders have double range, are more mobile, are cheaper and are troops. 108pts of Windrider (16 BS4 shots non-twin linked) easily outshoots a single Flyrant, whose exact points currently escape me, I think they're usually around 240pts, right?

Eldar apologists seem to think that people will only take 2 squads of 3 when it's my understanding its more effective to build a list with multiples of 5.

The kind of unit that is good at removing jetbikes would pretty much have to be something that's good at wiping out most things, like a Heldrake, but scatbikes could potentially be so numerous that a single Heldrake hardly makes a dent.

I think it would be neat if every space marine bike could take an assault cannon, or destroyers could take tesla destructors.

lets double those scatter shots making the squad 216 points. thats 32 bs4 shots, hitting on 6s, wounding on 4s, and saves are allowed, basically what 1.5 wounds or so? compared to 12 twinlinked s6 shots, wounding on 2s, allowing regular saves, say 3 or 4 wounds. I still like the tyrant in this scenario. Personally, ill be using the now insane 3 crimson hunter formation to kill tyrants.

**Big Blind Bill**

stopcallingmechief wrote:
th3maninblak wrote:
Everyone complained about white scar bikes when they came out, particularly with grav. A grav biker is 36 points. An eldar scatbike is 27 points and is every bit as good.

are you high? for 9 more points you get +1 s, +1 T , better LD, ATSKNF, and a gun that is significantly better though shorter ranged. i would take grav gun bikes over scat bikes every single time. kill two T4 bikes from a 5-8 man squad and the eldar player is taking a leadership test on a 7, i dont like those odds on multiple tests.

Eldar bikes have LD8 base, which is the same as non-upgraded SM bikes.

Grav gun is significantly better? Half the range, +50% of the cost, and is only actually better vs some targets. Against marines in 5+ cover the grav gun does a grand total of 0.1 more wounds per turn.
Pretty comparable imo, especially when given the costs and especially when considering the range.

Remember, eldar can take as many as they like in a squad, SM are stuck with 2 + a combi.

I agree with the other guy, Eldar jetikes are easily as good as, and imo far better than, whitescar bikes.

**stopcallingmechief**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
stopcallingmechief wrote:
th3maninblak wrote:
Everyone complained about white scar bikes when they came out, particularly with grav. A grav biker is 36 points. An eldar scatbike is 27 points and is every bit as good.

are you high? for 9 more points you get +1 s, +1 T , better LD, ATSKNF, and a gun that is significantly better though shorter ranged. i would take grav gun bikes over scat bikes every single time. kill two T4 bikes from a 5-8 man squad and the eldar player is taking a leadership test on a 7, i dont like those odds on multiple tests.

Eldar bikes have LD8 base, which is the same as non-upgraded SM bikes.

Grav gun is significantly better? Half the range, +50% of the cost, and is only actually better vs some targets. Against marines in 5+ cover the grav gun does a grand total of 0.1 more wounds per turn.
Pretty comparable imo, especially when given the costs and especially when considering the range.

Remember, eldar can take as many as they like in a squad, SM are stuck with 2 + a combi.

I agree with the other guy, Eldar jetikes are easily as good as, and imo far better than, whitescar bikes.

ya only better against MC and vehicles, you know, the biggest threats in the game. Who shoots grav guns into a)infantry b) infantry in cover. Your not using them right if you are.

**Kisada II**

I think the white scars bikers is a fair point to start a comparison. A white scars biker is 21 points base, must take 5 to be troops and only 2 of those 5 can have grav guns at 15 points (the serge can take a combi for 10). The range on grav guns is 18".
So for 145 points you can have 9 grav shots at 18". You can buy 5 Eldar jetbikes with scatter lasers for those points (and have a few points left) and have 20 scatter laser shots at 36".

So at 36" the Eldar jetbikes kill 4 of the White scars bikers.
At 18" the White scars kill 4 of the eldar bikers (2 if the Eldar jink)

But the obvious is that the White Scars are never going to get within 18"

Maybe it will be faq'd that you can't take a scatter laser on every bike (I hope it's right after every WAAC player models their 30 jetbikes with them)

**MWHistorian**

It's difficult to take such things in a vacuum. Yes, White Scar bikes are better against MC's and vehicles, but the Eldar have D-weapons for that. The scat lasers will more than take care of everything else.

**Big Blind Bill**

Scatter lasers are better than grav guns vs AV10, 11, and the same vs AV12.

Vs any vehicle with 3 hull points, grav guns need 3 turns of shooting on average to take it out. This is not good.

So that debunks your idea that grav is more effective vs vehicles. Please do some research before typing.

Who shoots grav guns into a)infantry b) infantry in cover. Your not using them right if you are.

Lol. Do you play vs noobs or on planet bowling ball?

If your opponent cannot get a cover save most of the time, it is you who is playing the game wrong.

Sure grav are good vs MCs. How insightful. You know what else is? Str D weapons. Pick the tools for the job. Eldar have the D for MCs already. The bikes clean up everything else.

**Zagman**

Silverthorne wrote:
Zagman wrote:
Silverthorne wrote:
Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.

T4 Durability. Basic Troop. PA analog unit ie Marine is a troop in many codices(SM, DA, BA, SW, CSM, GK).

Comparing them to White Scars, an unbalanced Chapter Tactic applied in a single Dex, is bad when looking at the entire scope of the game where balance is concerned. Now, comparing them to Biker Marines does have merit, but using unbalanced White Scars as a general balancing point is not effective.

And it's also good to compare the Biker Marine to the Basic Marine as well. Good balancing comparisons can be made, but the PA Marine is the fundamental balancing point, it's the most common thread to tie the game together.

So now SM bikers are unbalanced as well and therefore invalid for comparison? Would you like to move the goalposts a little futher? Why you would consider the PA marine to be a better comparison than you know, another bike trooper is beyond me. I'm comparing apples to apples. You want to compare apples to gravitational anomalies.

I actually said SM bikers are a good point of comparison, and also said White Scars Bikers were not a good as a general balancing point comparison as they are also an unbalanced unit. White Scars are unequivocally better than SM Bikers and they are one of the best troops in the game. Comparing the best troop in the game to one of the other best troops in the game when discussing general troop balance is not very productive. But, comparing models with similar base points costs, identical toughness as well as saves when one is the most numerous troop analog in the game does have merit.

Also, comparing a 7th Edition Troop to a 6th Edition FA unit that can be made a troop and is likely to be soon be losing said FOC modification is less productive as well.

I was making a point about general game and troop balance, using the most prevalent troop analog. Discussing only the most powerful units in a vacuum in comparison to each other is useless for general game balance. Overall game balance has to be died back to a common point, I choose the PA Space Marine analog due to its prevalence. Your frame of reference and comparison was very limited. You failed to read my posts with understanding choosing to insert your own assumptions. Your argument style was necessarily hostile.

**Galef**

Kisada II wrote:

But the obvious is that the White Scars are never going to get within 18"

WHAT!?!?! Um, how are you not getting in range. White scars will have range on the whole board on turn 1 (cuz scout from Khan). Turn 1 scout, plus move= White Scars have range to every corner of the Eldar Deployment, meaning the 48" move that the jetbikes have means nothing. The jetbike will then have to choose between turboboosting from in range of the Whitescars, to...still in range, but behind the Whitescars.

The only way for the jetbikes to stay truly out of range is to play Hammer & Anvil (the long deployment). And even then you will have range by turn 2 and the Jetbike now have NO place on the board to run.

I am not saying you wont loose a lot of bikes coming in, but stop pretending that the range makes THAT much of a difference on a 6x4 table
---------------------------
By the way, this assumes multiple units of White Scars vs multiple units of Scatterbikes. We cant look at a unit to unit comparision in a "complete" vaccum

-

**Kisada II**

Your assuming their is no way to deploy the eldar jetbikes out of sight ie. 0 line of sight blocking terrain and you include Khan to the conversation which I guess is semi-fair

**Big Blind Bill**

Range does does make a difference when the majority of the opponents force is not a scouting 12' move unit.

Don't just compare WS vs Scatbikes (WS lose most the time anyway). Compare them in a variety of situations.

Most forces are not as fast as a WS bike army, and here the range difference is a huge advantage. 36 range, along with cover ignoring movement and an assault move, really forces the opponent to come to you and play by your rules. WS bikes on the other hand need to get closer.

It is a fact that using the WS bikes will take more planning, and require more losses to be taken, as they have to get within 18 of a target, and have no assault move to get out of dodge.

Comparing base stats has its uses, but by far the most powerful thing about the scatbikes is their range + assault move, and many people are ignoring this.

**Whiskey144**

So in other words, you require a specific combination in order to close the gap.

Unlike Windriders, who against every other flavor of Marine Biker can just kite the piss out of them the entire game.

Let's also not forget that the Eldar player could reserve his bikes against a Khan Biker list.

Silverthorne wrote:

Spoiler:

Actually none of those things need Khan to run in an army, he's just for scout. Maybe you're not familiar with the army. Also the maximum number of bikers, ever, that can have grav guns is 2 in a troop squad, with 1 combi grav, or 4 in a command squad. So the 6 to 6 comparison is impossible in this ruleset. Again are you familiar with the SM army? The idea that you would take a MotF and librarin over a Smashmaster or Bike Captain... isn't seriously entertained at the competitive level. If you're talking about a friendly game then this entire conversation is moot. If you run a legal bike squad of 6, you'll find it's dramatically cheaper than the Windriders and compares well against them point for point in a shoot-out (although it will eventually loose, because it's cheaper) and absolutely savages them in assault. You also overlook that SM bikers are a serious threat to vehicles in assault, which is a great part of their utility. Windriders are pathetic in assault without a 50 point warlock upgrade who helps a little bit against vehicles and hardly at all against anything else. Compare this to SM bikers who can easily wreck squadroned russes or anything with AV-10-12 armor, which is most of the vehicles in the game. White scars ignore terrain, which is a hell of a lot better than a jetbike move, as EVERY time you JSJ with your dudes you're going to be taking 6 dangerous terrain checks, possibly more. You also assume that it will take two full turns of unopposed shooting before the bikers can return fire. Have you ever seen a 40k game? There isn't enough board space to avoid bikers like that. They can cover too significant a portion of the board, too rapidly. You have at most one turn before you start taking return fire. And that is pretty optimistic. If you manage to set that up somehow you can be pretty confident that not all the windriders were able to shoot as JSJing a 6 man unit in and out of LOS terrain is actually pretty much impossible on a normal board.

Your wall of text is offensive to me. You should fix it.

With that out of the way, I made the comparison using the limitations provided by the SM book; IE, "Troops" Bikers may only have a maximum of 2 special weapons.

The point is that the GravBikers can only get two special weapons. Windriders get a Scatter Laser apiece, and cost 6 points more per model than a basic SM Biker. A GravBiker costs 36 points, about 10 points more than a Scatterbike.

So a legal squad of GravBikers isn't dramatically cheaper than Windriders, unless you're a total fething idiot and run 9 Windriders as a bigass squad. 6 Bikers with two Grav-guns and a Combi-grav is 166 points. 6 Scatterbikes is 162 points... wow, the Windriders are actually cheaper! Sure, it's a 4-point difference... but it's there.

Obviously I am not the one who has no fething clue what they're talking about.

**PipeAlley**

Whiskey144 wrote:
Silverthorne wrote:
Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. Which is also a troop choice. And has a St 5 HOW attack, twin linked bolters, increased S&T, improved jink, skilled rider, Hit and Run, and ATSKNF, probably the two most powerful special rules in the entire game. I play biker marines, and I wouldn't trade my Bike Squads for Windriders.

I have two words for you: firepower, and mobility.

-Firepower

A GravBiker, as taken from a "Troops"* choice Biker squad, costs, IIRC, 36 points. ~10 points more than a Scatterbiker. In terms of armament alone, you'll trade a Grav-gun (18" range, 3 shots), and the TL Bolter (Rapid Fire/24" range), for a Scatter Laser (heavy 4, 36", S6). In terms of firepower alone, the GravBiker is, realistically, at a bit of a disadvantage to the Scatterbiker. Sure, Grav-guns can and will gak all over 3+/2+ armor units, but they also have to get close. And sure, a Biker gives that Grav-gun a Relentless platform, T5, and a 12" move for a total 30" threat range... but the Scatterbiker has a whopping 48" threat range, that they can technically move out of by JSJ'ing behind LoS-blocking terrain.

Which brings us to...

-Mobility

Scatterbikers are Jetbikes. More specifically, they are Eldar Jetbikes. EJBs have all the terrain-ignoring benefits of regular Jetbikes, on top of a JSJ move. Oh, and things like H&R, Skilled Rider, and S5 HoW? They require the White Scars Chapter Tactics and/or Korsarro Khan in order to gain those benefits.

What happens when I, for example, take Ultramarines, or Imperial Fists, or Black Templars Chapter Tactics? Or maybe the FW Raptors, Carcharadons, or Red Scorpions (the latter of which provides no benefit whatsoever to Bikes)? I don't get any of those bonuses- I mean sure, Iron Hands get 6+ FNP for everyone, and IF get some accuracy benefits for bolter fire and BTs get Crusader and AW... but how important are these benefits for Bikers, who want to be shooting things, are T5/3+, and have TL bolters anyways?

You're also ignoring that you do still need a Bikerboss to make SM Bikers a Troops choice- common as such a choice is, it's still a choice that must be made... and not all armies can make it; for example a MotF to bring lots of FW Relic vehicles along with a Librarian would prevent the use of a Bikerboss... and thus prevent SM Bikers from ever seeing any great use.

As an example, 6 Windriders vs 6 SM Bikers with Grav-guns, which is 162 points vs 157 points. Sure, the Windriders are more expensive... but they'll kill ~3.55 GravBikers per turn. From 36", even. In contrast, at 18", so as to be in Grav-gun range, the GravBikers will have ~2.67 kills from Grav-guns and ~0.59 from their bolters, for 3.26 dead Windriders. Which sounds great... until you realize that they have to do so from anywhere from 50-33% the range of the Windriders. In the two turns that the GravBikers need to get into range, the Windriders can pretty much render them combat-ineffective at best. Worst case? GravBikers get wiped.

People often talk about the fact that Windriders have poor leadership... but it's difficult to exploit that when they have a 48" threat range, and a JSJ move to hide behind cover.

BikerBoss?!?! That's OUR word, you can't use that!

good summary though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Kisada II wrote:
You know 30 eldar scatter bikes have a really hard counter that can kill it in one turn... 30 opposing eldar scatter bikes!

Everyone who wanted game balance is going to get it, we'll all just play eldar, because I'm sure as heck not going to put marines on the table against eldar I'd rather just sit there for 3 hours and do nothing.

Ah come on, you'll get to do something. You'll get to pick up your models.... as I roll fist fulls of dice. On the bright side, it isn't going to take 3 hours.

Now everyone will know what it's like to be an Ork player against Tau and Grey Knights all these years.

**Galef**

If the Eldar player reserves his bikes (which I personally will be doing) Then you miss out on at least 1 turn, and possibly more turns, of shooting.

I wholeheartedly agree that Windriders are better than Whitescars in a "vs" comparison, but in their respective armies as a whole, the Whitescars are more versatile and the Windriders HAVE to behave in certain ways to survive.

**Traditio**

Silverthorne wrote:
Why compare them to a tactical marine? That's absurd. Compare them to, you know, a biker marine. which is also a troop choice.

Regular bike marines are not troop choices unless you are running a chapter master or captain on a bike. Otherwise, they fill a fast attack FOC.

And has a St 5 HOW attack

Biker marines are S4. Like pretty much all space marines. How are you calculating S5?

**Galef**

Check the White Scar chapter Tactics. That is how they get S5 HoW

**Traditio**

Galef wrote:
Check the White Scar chapter Tactics. That is how they get S5 HoW

Either way, his point doesn't really work. "Let's compare this standard troop choice to this other unit which has x, y and z characteristics in these extremely particular and non-standard circumstances." To which, of course, the answer should be: "...or not. Let's compare apples to apples." I play crimson fists, and my HQ is Pedro Kantor. I don't get S5 HOW biker troop choices. The standard marine troop choices are scouts and tactical marines. Let's compare the scatbikes to their point equivalency in tactical or scout marines.

So, 3 windrider scatbikes are roughly 85 points? Give or take 5 points? For 85 points, I get 5 marines with a veteran sarge and meltabombs. I don't even get to upgrade a guy to a flamer.

So...yeah. Before my 5 guys (who don't even get a rhino or a drop pod at 85 points) are even able to get into range to fire their bolters, they'll have been effortlessly gunned down by 12 shot volleys of S6 fire. Thanks, GW!

**stopcallingmechief**

[spoiler]

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Scatter lasers are better than grav guns vs AV10, 11, and the same vs AV12.

Vs any vehicle with 3 hull points, grav guns need 3 turns of shooting on average to take it out. This is not good.

So that debunks your idea that grav is more effective vs vehicles. Please do some research before typing.

Who shoots grav guns into a)infantry b) infantry in cover. Your not using them right if you are.

Lol. Do you play vs noobs or on planet bowling ball?

If your opponent cannot get a cover save most of the time, it is you who is playing the game wrong.

Sure grav are good vs MCs. How insightful. You know what else is? Str D weapons. Pick the tools for the job. Eldar have the D for MCs already. The bikes clean up everything else.

[spoiler]

id like to know how bikes do vs av 13 and 14, guess what, atleast if forced to grav bikes CAN strip it of hull points. scat bikes cant. So let me ammend my statement, grav a ridicuolosly better than scats vs MC, better vs elite infantry, better vs high av vehicles. Scat bikes are better vs light armour and light infantry. idk about you but on planet bowlingball where i live, one of those is better againstactual in game threats and its not the bikes.

And i also know here on planetbowling bowl, aka reality, that no not every single unit infantry or itherwise aee getting cover saves. frankly if you play with that much scenery, dont the scat bikes have reduced effective movement and gun range avoiding all that? Guess not in made up land

**Mavnas**

stopcallingmechief wrote:
[spoiler]
Big Blind Bill wrote:
Scatter lasers are better than grav guns vs AV10, 11, and the same vs AV12.

Vs any vehicle with 3 hull points, grav guns need 3 turns of shooting on average to take it out. This is not good.

So that debunks your idea that grav is more effective vs vehicles. Please do some research before typing.

Who shoots grav guns into a)infantry b) infantry in cover. Your not using them right if you are.

Lol. Do you play vs noobs or on planet bowling ball?

If your opponent cannot get a cover save most of the time, it is you who is playing the game wrong.

Sure grav are good vs MCs. How insightful. You know what else is? Str D weapons. Pick the tools for the job. Eldar have the D for MCs already. The bikes clean up everything else.

[spoiler]

id like to know how bikes do vs av 13 and 14, guess what, atleast if forced to grav bikes CAN strip it of hull points. scat bikes cant. So let me ammend my statement, grav a ridicuolosly better than scats vs MC, better vs elite infantry, better vs high av vehicles. Scat bikes are better vs light armour and light infantry. idk about you but on planet bowlingball where i live, one of those is better againstactual in game threats and its not the bikes.

And i also know here on planetbowling bowl, aka reality, that no not every single unit infantry or itherwise aee getting cover saves. frankly if you play with that much scenery, dont the scat bikes have reduced effective movement and gun range avoiding all that? Guess not in made up land

And the damage WS bikers struggle to hurt things on the other side of the board unless the get closer, don't have a good answer to camo cloak scouts gone to ground or any other 2+ objective camper they can't get close to without being overwhelmed.

Oh and 3++ units. Scat bikers kill those much better from outside charge range, but really why would you want to kill TWC or Wraiths before they murder your dudes?

**Big Blind Bill**

stopcallingmechief wrote:
[spoiler]
Big Blind Bill wrote:
Scatter lasers are better than grav guns vs AV10, 11, and the same vs AV12.

Vs any vehicle with 3 hull points, grav guns need 3 turns of shooting on average to take it out. This is not good.

So that debunks your idea that grav is more effective vs vehicles. Please do some research before typing.

Who shoots grav guns into a)infantry b) infantry in cover. Your not using them right if you are.

Lol. Do you play vs noobs or on planet bowling ball?

If your opponent cannot get a cover save most of the time, it is you who is playing the game wrong.

Sure grav are good vs MCs. How insightful. You know what else is? Str D weapons. Pick the tools for the job. Eldar have the D for MCs already. The bikes clean up everything else.

[spoiler]

id like to know how bikes do vs av 13 and 14, guess what, atleast if forced to grav bikes CAN strip it of hull points. scat bikes cant. So let me ammend my statement, grav a ridicuolosly better than scats vs MC, better vs elite infantry, better vs high av vehicles. Scat bikes are better vs light armour and light infantry. idk about you but on planet bowlingball where i live, one of those is better againstactual in game threats and its not the bikes.

And i also know here on planetbowling bowl, aka reality, that no not every single unit infantry or itherwise aee getting cover saves. frankly if you play with that much scenery, dont the scat bikes have reduced effective movement and gun range avoiding all that? Guess not in made up land

So, WS bikes are better because they can hurt AV 13 and 14 in a very mediocre fashion. What a ridiculous argument lol.

Cover saves are very easy to come by, hell you can make your own by inter weaving units. Not every unit will have a save, but a good opponent will try to make sure the units that matter do.

Let me show you some numbers, as you seem incapable of doing your own research and keep spouting false information.

Number of wounds caused by scatbikes Vs gravgun white scars against T4 targets

For the purpose of this test, we'll compare 5 scatbikes, against 5 WS bikes with 2 grav guns. Both are 135 points.
I am considering the WS bikes to be in rapid fire range for their bolters.

Scatbikes - White Scars
6+ 11.111 - 4.444 (bolters only)
5+ 7.4 - 4 (bolters only)
4+ 5.555 - 3.333
3+ 3.7 - 3.556
2+ 1.85 - 3.777

So, scatbikes are not 'better vs light infantry,' but are categorically better vs everything except 2+ saves.
Not only do they have a higher damage output, but they doing so at 3x the range.
Also please bear in mind that these numbers do not include any kind of invulnerable or cover saves. This will have a large effect on the WS values.

A 4+ cover save (a normal jink save) reduces WS damage output against 2+ saves to only 2 wounds a turn.
Scatbikes are better if a 3+ or better cover save can be found.

By the way, said grav bikes deal 1HP on average to a non super heavy vehicle per turn.
Again disregarding cover saves.
3+ turns to kill 1 predator of leman russ? No thanks.

I play WS as one of my primary armies. They are very capable. But they have nothing on the raw damage output of scatbikes.

WS are more versatile, but as scatbikes are so powerful vs 90% of the targets in the game the eldar player has a lot of free points to deal with MCs and heavy vehicles.

**jreilly89**

Silverthorne wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:

Tom Kirby, get off the internet.

My, what a sparkling conversationalist you are! Sit down, I don't want you to over-exert yourself mentally by having to stand and breathe at the same time.

You'll have to forgive me. I've seen a lot of Eldar and GW apologists, but you sir take the cake.

**HawaiiMatt**

Big Blind Bill wrote:

By the way, said grav bikes deal 1HP on average to a non super heavy vehicle per turn.
Again disregarding cover saves.
3+ turns to kill 1 predator of leman russ? No thanks.

Or is it 1HP from grav, and then 5 Krak Grenades on rear armor?
WS bikes do have a significant option for close combat that scatter bikes lack.

-Matt

**Big Blind Bill**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Big Blind Bill wrote:

By the way, said grav bikes deal 1HP on average to a non super heavy vehicle per turn.
Again disregarding cover saves.
3+ turns to kill 1 predator of leman russ? No thanks.

Or is it 1HP from grav, and then 5 Krak Grenades on rear armor?
WS bikes do have a significant option for close combat that scatter bikes lack.

-Matt

Yes they definitely do.

They do have to be get into melee first though, which completely negates the argument that WS bikes are more durable, as they are going to have to eat a couple of rounds of shooting at point blank.

My response regarding the vehicles is to clarify that grav guns are not that great against them.

**Slayer-Fan123**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Big Blind Bill wrote:

By the way, said grav bikes deal 1HP on average to a non super heavy vehicle per turn.
Again disregarding cover saves.
3+ turns to kill 1 predator of leman russ? No thanks.

Or is it 1HP from grav, and then 5 Krak Grenades on rear armor?
WS bikes do have a significant option for close combat that scatter bikes lack.

-Matt

Ah yes, the classic argument bringing up Krak grenades.
They're nice, but don't pretend they're that great an option.

**Big Blind Bill**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
Big Blind Bill wrote:

By the way, said grav bikes deal 1HP on average to a non super heavy vehicle per turn.
Again disregarding cover saves.
3+ turns to kill 1 predator of leman russ? No thanks.

Or is it 1HP from grav, and then 5 Krak Grenades on rear armor?
WS bikes do have a significant option for close combat that scatter bikes lack.

-Matt

Ah yes, the classic argument bringing up Krak grenades.
They're nice, but don't pretend they're that great an option.

You can't discount them on a 12 inch move platform with str 5 HoW and hit and run. These guys made 6th ed serpent spam a breeze to deal with for me.

That said, I still don't find the utility of the WS to match the pure damage potential of the scatbikes.

You don't judge fire dragons on their ability to cook orks, similarly you shouldnt be judging scatbikes on their ability to deal with heavy armour.

**Exergy**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Kisada II wrote:
You know 30 eldar scatter bikes have a really hard counter that can kill it in one turn... 30 opposing eldar scatter bikes!

Everyone who wanted game balance is going to get it, we'll all just play eldar, because I'm sure as heck not going to put marines on the table against eldar I'd rather just sit there for 3 hours and do nothing.

Ah come on, you'll get to do something. You'll get to pick up your models.... as I roll fist fulls of dice. On the bright side, it isn't going to take 3 hours.

you have to roll a lot of dice against scatter bikes. Armor saves and FNP. If you have 50 models you might get to roll 200 dice before you pack up.

**the_scotsman**

You know, after I played my first hardcore "nasty" Eldar list with my guard...I'm really not seeing it.

He ran: the Windrider host formation all Scatterbikes, 2 wraithknights with D cannons, and a Wraithfighter.

I ran guard, what I generally run for guard: one blob platoon with Lascannons, priest and divination Primaris, Paskisher with Battlecannon Pask Pal, 2 Wyverns, all sitting behind an aegis line with quad gun, then I take Tempestus squads to drop in and claim objectives.

He got turn 1, took D cannon shots at Pask's buddy, luckily it was night fight so he didn't take a scratch, the bikes took a half decent chunk out of the blob ( those scatter lasers do hurt no doubt about it) but the big thing was he opted to move forward with the WKs rather than stay in cover to try and get me in melee.

Wyverns chunked the bike squadrons hard with ignores cover, Pask, buddy and the blob smacked a WK for 5 wounds, and it basically just went downhill from there until the Eldar player got mad and packed up at the bottom of turn 2. Wraithfighter just ate quad fire, had to Jink and couldn't use his D flamers, Wraithlords both died, bikes for the most part died to Tempestus...

People always say "oh it takes X Lascannons to kill Y" but turn on Prescience, Bring it down/Ignore Cover through an order, those things are going to pack a punch.

**Martel732**

Guardsman are more efficient at soaking scatterlaser fire. Much more efficient than meqs.

**Orlanth**

This entire thread has gone off the deep end.
Comparing one totally broken unit to another doesnt mean anything. The main question is what to do about the clusterfeth GW have made of codex design recently.
The only reasonable answer is for a method of policing, either a variant of comp or restricting oneself to casual play. 40K is now unplayable without a gentleman's agreement not to cheese out.
I mean seriously if an ork player wants a game, what will Eldar players do? Bring a load of scatterbikes and table him by turn three, without even thinking about the scenario or tactical deployment. Just turn up with your Farseers, a mess of bikes and some D-cheese in case the ladz bring something S6 cant kill.
Any 12 year old can win with Eldar now, and there isn't much many armies can do about it.

This topic needs a purpose. Eldar = broken, don't even try to argue against that.
The question now is, how do we police the codex?

I think its time Dakka took matter into it own hands and wrote balanced codex guidelines. Supplementary rules for fairer better games. We shouldn't change the rules and costs , just work with them to form Dakka comp.

For Eldar we could start with.
1. No more than 1 unit with strength D ranged per 2000pts.
2. No more than 1 unit with strength D melee per 1000pts.
3. Jetbikes use the old restrictions on armament. For every jetbike squadron you take under the old restriction you may take another under the new armament restriction, this second unit may not cost more than the first.
4. Continued.

Yes we need to form Dakka Comp for all the armies, starting with Eldar, Tau, Necrons and Woofs.
We should start a new topic on this and work the lists through and make a Dakka Comp .pdf for all armies.

**Saldiven**

the_scotsman wrote:
You know, after I played my first hardcore "nasty" Eldar list with my guard...I'm really not seeing it.

So, you got lucky by being protected by night fight on the first turn, then the opponent made a decision that you yourself admit was tactically poor, and somehow the army is at fault?

**wuestenfux**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're the best troop choice in the entire game now.

Seconded.