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Something that has always bothered me is that Ogryns are portrayed as dumb, drooling brutes who can barely understand which end of their rifle to point at the enemy before shooting.

I always found the larger-than-life builds of a soldier serving in the Imperial Guard appealing - one who could crush a space marine outside his suit when it came to unarmed combat.

Yet these supersoldiers serving in the Imperial Guard are dumber than orks...kinda off putting.

Imagine smart Ogryns - with the intelligence of a relatively normal human soldier. That would make them that much more awesome. You'd have them leading the charge, rallying the troops, getting into the thick of combat going 1 on 1 with tyranid warriors, wraithguard, chaos spawn and the like, while regular troopers cheer.

Instead, GW has made them look like manchildren who cant do a thing without some kind of priest or comissar trying to beat some sense into their cowardly brains...thanks GW.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Imagine smart Ogryns - with the intelligence of a relatively normal human soldier. That would make them that much more awesome. You'd have them leading the charge, rallying the troops, getting into the thick of combat going 1 on 1 with tyranid warriors, wraithguard, chaos spawn and the like, while regular troopers cheer.

So...basically...space marines? Give ogryns intelligence and you basically have unarmored marines running about, only slightly worse.

The wiki says they aren't necessarily stupid, but their intelligence is more focused on survival. I haven't seen them portrayed as such by any authors though, but in Commisar by Andy Hoare certain convicts are described as "baby orgyns" but kind of intelligent iirc. They were kinda scary for the protagonists to face, but I found the book a bit lacking to actually go out and buy, and not worth it to get just to see some semi intelligent mini ogryns.

They are smarter than orks in some ways. Fanfiction does well with ogryns. I believe there is a piece called Gav and Bob about an ogryn. They are just toddlers. That makes them appealing to me.

While Ogryn Bonehead (their leader) are relativelly intelligent (about has smart has a teen), most Ogryn are indeed very stupid. If they were smart (and more coordonated), they would overshadow Space Marines rather easily. They are far larger, stronger and even slightly more resilient than Space Marines. If they were smart, they would basically be uglier better Marines with worst gear. I find their appeal in their relative stupidity. They are big naive, gentle giant that can tear an ork nob appart with their bare hands. It's legitimate thrope.

I've heard that ogryns can be extremely loyal (reminds me a bit like a dog; this man was nice to me and took care of me, I will defend him with my life) but can also be easily corrupted to chaos, which doesn't make much sense to me. How can something incredibly loyal easily fall to chaos? The closest I can think of is chaos poses as a loyalist force and gets the ogryn to do deeds for them. I guess due to a lack of intelligence could mean easily gullible.

well the thing is an ogryn is much taller and a lot musclier than a space marine, but a space marine has superior reflexes, hand to hand training, multiple hearts, awesome immune system, can swallow and spit poison, has enhanced vision etc. so he would still be the overall better soldier.

I would just like to think of Ogryns as an opportunity to "upscale" and beef out normal humans without going into space marine territory

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I've heard that ogryns can be extremely loyal (reminds me a bit like a dog; this man was nice to me and took care of me, I will defend him with my life) but can also be easily corrupted to chaos, which doesn't make much sense to me. How can something incredibly loyal easily fall to chaos? The closest I can think of is chaos poses as a loyalist force and gets the ogryn to do deeds for them. I guess due to a lack of intelligence could mean easily gullible.

Maybe if their commander falls, they will gladly follow?

There used to be the rumor that Ogryns under Horus's armies were converted to Chaos simply by their officers telling them that they fought for the Emperor and that it was the other guys who were the traitors. That's how stupid and guilibile they were.

They are modest philosophers that choose their words cautiously.

I like them as the simple innocent brutes as they are like dogs dumb but loyal to the end.

 Sir Arun wrote:


I would just like to think of Ogryns as an opportunity to "upscale" and beef out normal humans without going into space marine territory

But...there is no reason to. Balance aside, what you are looking for is a fluff chance to something that, well, isn't a large fluff problem. Are they the most compelling, awesome, and top dog thing out there? Hell no. But why should they be?
The very important detail to keep in mind is that they pretty much are really dumb to balance out the fact that they are really strong. Pros and cons, favors and faults, are all part of the tight rope balancing act of making something realistic and relatable. Why not make them more intelligent? The same rational that we don't make guard soldiers stronger. Their balancing act is being relativtly weak, but making up for it in numbers. Quantity vs quality, you don't get both or else it is rather boring. Sure, we could make Ogryns smarter in fluff and then have them inspire nearby guard troopers and RIP AND TEAR all the things, but then, why not make Kroot hyper psychic and capable of creating warp rifts at will. Cause that would be friggin awesome

Now one possibilty to beef up humans on a IG level to make them more "Humanity, F*** Yeah!", without the need of heavy support would prehaps be along the lines of Catachans? They certainly wouldn't fit on Space Marines levels for the reasons stated above (after all, if normal humans could reach that scale you have to ask what is the point of the space marines?) but a mini codex/supplemeny they could make for tougher guard soldiers that have some awesome special characters that excel in melee and leading an inspirational charge.

You also have to be careful when beefing up humans, or any "good" faction for that matter, to not upset the natural Grimdark atmosphere hovering over the game. Least ye anger gods of old

epronovost wrote:
There used to be the rumor that Ogryns under Horus's armies were converted to Chaos simply by their officers telling them that they fought for the Emperor and that it was the other guys who were the traitors. That's how stupid and guilibile they were.

I like this fluff as it's kinda how I justify useing bullgryns as mega nobz. Orgyns and orks have a lot in common both are stupid giant brutes that like Krumping stuff, and they both have cockney accents. I also remember a friend telling me about a book where something similar happened, the ogryn was fighting with the chaos marines and he kept shouting "For Da Emperah" .

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I've heard that ogryns can be extremely loyal (reminds me a bit like a dog; this man was nice to me and took care of me, I will defend him with my life) but can also be easily corrupted to chaos, which doesn't make much sense to me. How can something incredibly loyal easily fall to chaos? The closest I can think of is chaos poses as a loyalist force and gets the ogryn to do deeds for them. I guess due to a lack of intelligence could mean easily gullible.

Because they have a very simplistic, child-like faith in the Emperor. It doesn't take a whole lot to undermine that faith.

They have severe literacy and numeracy issues.

Nork, an intelligent ogryn, can count to four and sign his own name. Like that is impressive.

I love ogryns though, I remember some old fluff for Nork; his commanding officer had been injured and ordered Nork to fetch the medipack. Sometime later a loud grinding noise makes the CO comes back to consciousness. It's Nork dragging a wrecked chimera.

The CO asks Nork what the gak he is doing. Nork proudly replies the medipack is inside the chimera.

Oh, that reminds me, they tend to have severe claustrophobia issues too. Kinda odd for a bunch of cave dwellers.

My next project is a small, veteran IG army, themed to be the survivors of a devastating conflict. All higher officers were killed so the only remaining ranks are sergeant level (and an attached commissar). Due to his tenure, and unyielding faith in the Emperor, in addition to his rank, the Bullgryn Bone'ead is given command by the Commissar and as such is the warlord of my army.

 Sir Arun wrote:
well the thing is an ogryn is much taller and a lot musclier than a space marine, but a space marine has superior reflexes, hand to hand training, multiple hearts, awesome immune system, can swallow and spit poison, has enhanced vision etc. so he would still be the overall better soldier.

I would just like to think of Ogryns as an opportunity to "upscale" and beef out normal humans without going into space marine territory

Well, I think the point is were the Ogryns intelligent the Imperium would have flipped out about a sub-race of human mutants that are capable of replacing the "pure" human, as they are ulgier, stronger, and more resilient than your average human, and seemingly have no psyker genes. Odds are the mutants would have been purged instead of being used so wildly in the Imperial armies. But who knows.

I personally enjoy the fact the Ogryns are described as stupid, since the whole point of them is to have Ogres in SPEEECCCEEEE!!!, like how Ratlings are just halflings in SPEEECCCEEEE!!!!

If some books are accurate, they come in at somthing like 9 feet and stronger than space marines in brute unarmoured strength.

There not smart, but strong ernough to pose a threat to a space marine and rip humans, orks and such limb from lib with no effert.

Maybe you can do the Fallout-solution to this. That could actually make for a good storyline fitting in the setting.

Kinda like Nappa from DBZ - he's huge and smart, but still kinda dumb compared to vegeta and nevertheless far from the best saiyan.

Actually the Fallout-solution means that most of the Super Mutants are dumb as bricks, but a few manage to retain their intelligence. They called the process Forced Evolutionary Virus. And it seems realistic that some more radical Tech Priest can experiment with a virus in order to awaken the intelligence of the Ogryns.

Intelligent Ogryns would be like reasonable commissars.
It would completely take away the essence of what they are. Their being so naive is what makes them so awesome imo.
The ssupersoldiers you describe in the OP already exist. They are called Space Marines.

 Sir Arun wrote:
well the thing is an ogryn is much taller and a lot musclier than a space marine, but a space marine has superior reflexes, hand to hand training, multiple hearts, awesome immune system, can swallow and spit poison, has enhanced vision etc. so he would still be the overall better soldier.

The "superior reflexes" is just hypnotraining, which the Inquisition also gives to normal humans. Nothing to stop them from giving it to an Ogryn.

 Melissia wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
well the thing is an ogryn is much taller and a lot musclier than a space marine, but a space marine has superior reflexes, hand to hand training, multiple hearts, awesome immune system, can swallow and spit poison, has enhanced vision etc. so he would still be the overall better soldier.

The "superior reflexes" is just hypnotraining, which the Inquisition also gives to normal humans. Nothing to stop them from giving it to an Ogryn.

Hypnotraining and the Black Carapace interacting with the Power Armor on a much, much different level than someone simply wearing a suit of Power Armor.

But iwthout hypnotraining they'd really not have any benefit over untrained individuals, which was my point.

The Black Carapace is reproduced through countless versions of similar tech from the Mechanicaus anyway.

I feel like it should spawn a new/separate thing.

Maybe an Ogryn with an an augmented brain, or possibly a transplanted one.

Or at the very least, I would think the Biologis would have tried breeding Ogryn with modified genes to spawn larger, more powerful brains.

I actually think that would be a cool addition, or should exist:

Psyker, super-intelligent Ogryns, in power armor.

I feel like that would be like a more progressive path towards a Space Marine. Minus the big lab-made organs list.

I would think a super Ogryn, with alot of the intelligence-related downsides eliminated, would be superior to a regular Space Marine.

In a galaxy with over a million imperial inhabited world's, some of which have the high gravity which spawned the ogryns, there will be some which did not devolve to the reduced intelligence of a dalmatian. Let's forget for a minute that high gravity will tend not make you evolve into something larger, or that evolution of that scale does not happen in 38 or less millenia, why on earth (no pun intended), would it make you dumb? And if it did... why would it make you dumb on every single planet it occurs on? I never did fathom this.

Poly Ranger wrote:
In a galaxy with over a million imperial inhabited world's, some of which have the high gravity which spawned the ogryns, there will be some which did not devolve to the reduced intelligence of a dalmatian. Let's forget for a minute that high gravity will tend not make you evolve into something larger, or that evolution of that scale does not happen in 38 or less millenia, why on earth (no pun intended), would it make you dumb? And if it did... why would it make you dumb on every single planet it occurs on? I never did fathom this.

Well Lexicanum says that all ogryns hail from high-gravity, harsh and barren planets. I always thought when the planet's environment constantly favors brute force over intelligence, the logical evolutionary guidelines would be "grow larger and stronger, or you will die getting eaten by a stronger and larger foe."

I think the original idea was: see -- there are these planets that have very high gravitational pull, to the point that any movement beyond the speed at which we humans manage while jogging on earth can be potentially lethal. So for any animal to move (and therefore feed and breed), they would all need to posses incredible strength. The planets are barren, so there would be little places one can hide, and there aren't much innovating you can do with dust and mud, so cunning and creativity are disfavored traits. The planets' are harsh to their inhabitants, therefore disfavored traits would be far more likely to be eliminated.

Now let's say the planet's got some species of huge, heavy herbivores that's got tough hides, and are the only species that can be supported by the planet's limited vegetation. Since all other large animals would have to move slowly due to the planets' gravity, the logical way to hunt is for predator that can move to their prey slightly faster than it, and bludgeon it to death by swift and sheer force. An ogryn don't need a genius to tell you what to do, grab a stickrock and he will finish the job.

As for if this is how life could evolve in such an environment, we might never know.

P.S.: Squats similarily formed on high-gravity worlds around and about the galactic core. The "excuse" for their height (right) was that they mine on planets that have little to no atmosphere (huh...) or under constant rational blasts and storms. They therefore are forced to live in strongholds build in and beneath the mineral rich mountains. This logically favors offsprings who are shorter due to the tunnels they dig and stuffs. So I guess the environment on the Orgyn worlds must be very specific

aw_man wrote:

Maybe an Ogryn with an an augmented brain, or possibly a transplanted one.

Gee dubs beat you to it



Look at the little baby carrier baby rat thing controlling the ratoger

@Sir Arun

I while back, I posted a codex Losts and Damned with a unit of modified chaos Ogryn I called the Ironclad Ogres. They were about has smart has humans and about as strong and resilient then Ogryn. They mostly served as shock troopers and elite units. Their size and strength allow them to serve as a banner for other mutants. You can find the link to the codez bellow. I know you were probably searching for something in the loyalist field, but was it something like that you would have imagined?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/639529.page

 Desubot wrote:

aw_man wrote:

Maybe an Ogryn with an an augmented brain, or possibly a transplanted one.

Gee dubs beat you to it



Look at the little baby carrier baby rat thing controlling the ratoger

Haha yeah they did I guess.

I was hoping for something more.... elegant. Less.... messy?

I guess I would just stick with an Ogryn that was naturally intelligent then