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Bolters- salvo 2/3 12"/24" (or assault 2)ap5
Stormbolters- salvo 2/3 12"/24" twinlinked ap5
Heavy bolter- heavy 3 36" str 6 ap4
Assault cannon- heavy 4 36" str 6 rending, shred ap4

Lasguns- str3, 30" ap6

A whole lot of nope.

Cant we just adjust the points costs instead?

 raiden wrote:

Heavy bolter- heavy 3 36" str 6 ap4

Some where in the world CS Groto is crying as his multilasers have been made obsolete.

Why not? As a matter of fact,

Bolters- str4 30" ap5. Shred. Rapid fire. Done.

Why arent they all just D weapons already.


Honestly now upgrading weapons in a vacuum is pointless.

 Desubot wrote:
Why arent they all just D weapons already.


Honestly now upgrading weapons in a vacuum is pointless.

THIS
It can not be empathized enough, everyone wants to upgrade stuff when to make the game better, if anything, we should be Downgrading a lot of things across the board

Vacuum? No. I'm looking at xenos codex's, and imperial codexes, and compared to the amount of firepower xenos armies get these are tiny upgrades that make it actually -worth- paying the points for the weapons. Ofc Choas marines get the benefits as well. Because we all know the new xenos weaponry isn't going to be toned down.


If you have eldar hate issues please grfo and get over it. Is actually prefer the strD-1 templates over the strength 10. Now they only wound/pen on a 3+.

Its not like I'm asking for scatternators.

Jokes on you. i dont even play eldar.

No these aret even upgrades.

you have made bolters and storm bolters into the old 5th edition rapidfire weapon which is terrible.

you just invalidated multi lasers by making heavy bolters auto takes

you just SIGNIFICANTLY boosted first rank fire second rank fire.

 raiden wrote:
I'm looking at xenos codex's, and imperial codexes, and compared to the amount of firepower xenos armies get these are tiny upgrades that make it actually -worth- paying the points for the weapons.

Like shootas and bigshootas, right?

 koooaei wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I'm looking at xenos codex's, and imperial codexes, and compared to the amount of firepower xenos armies get these are tiny upgrades that make it actually -worth- paying the points for the weapons.

Like shootas and bigshootas, right?

You pay 5pts for assault 3 str5 ap5. I pay 10pts for heavy 3 str5 ap4.

Shootas- assault 2 18", I'd happily give my tac Marines shootas. I'd pay an extra PPM for a shoota.

 raiden wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I'm looking at xenos codex's, and imperial codexes, and compared to the amount of firepower xenos armies get these are tiny upgrades that make it actually -worth- paying the points for the weapons.

Like shootas and bigshootas, right?

You pay 5pts for assault 3 str5 ap5. I pay 10pts for heavy 3 str5 ap4.

Shootas- assault 2 18", I'd happily give my tac Marines shootas. I'd pay an extra PPM for a shoota.

shootas come stock with bs2

If you actually compare 1 marine shooting at 2 shootaboyz it's an even fight for the exact same ammount of points.

2 shootaboyz hit 1.33 times, wound 0.66 times and kill 0.22 marines

1 marine hits 1.33 times, wounds 0.66 times, kills 0.66 boyz. Than the remaining boy runs away with ld7

 Desubot wrote:
Jokes on you. i dont even play eldar.

No these aret even upgrades.

you have made bolters and storm bolters into the old 5th edition rapidfire weapon which is terrible.

you just invalidated multi lasers by making heavy bolters auto takes

you just SIGNIFICANTLY boosted first rank fire second rank fire.

Then make stormbolters assault 3 cognis.

Bolters I changed later on.

Boohoo. The plasma cannon and old heavy bolter welcome their new brother.


Good. Guardsman are supposed to drown the enemy in fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I'm looking at xenos codex's, and imperial codexes, and compared to the amount of firepower xenos armies get these are tiny upgrades that make it actually -worth- paying the points for the weapons.

Like shootas and bigshootas, right?

You pay 5pts for assault 3 str5 ap5. I pay 10pts for heavy 3 str5 ap4.

Shootas- assault 2 18", I'd happily give my tac Marines shootas. I'd pay an extra PPM for a shoota.

shootas come stock with bs2

No weapon comes stock with anything. But sure. You can have the bolters, I'll still take the shoota.

Eldar are OP. But, WRT the topic at hand....

Brightlance vs Lascannon
Lascannon has +12" range
Lascannon has +1S vs everything not AV13+
Brightlance has +1S vs AV14

Lascannon wins.

Plasma Cannon vs Star Cannon:
Same range
Blast vs 2 shots
Gets Hot vs -1S
Seems about equal.

IoM ML vs EML:
IoM costs HB + 5 points. Another +10 for Flak.
EML costs HB-equiv +15 points.
Effectively, they cost the same, except the IoM get a 10pt discount if they don't want Flak.
EML small blast has AP4.
Minor advantage EML, but less options.

Scatter Laser vs Assault Cannon:
36" vs 24" range
AP6 vs AP4 actual-rending

Assault Cannon by a mile. Range does a lot, but actual-rending makes the AC outperform Lascannons in anti-tank (seriously, run some numbers).

Shuriken Cannon vs Heavy Bolter:
24" vs 36". Heavy Bolter has better range.
Assault vs Heavy. Cannon is better here.
S6 ap5 psuedo-rend (1 AP2 wound every 3rd round on a BS4 model) vs S5 AP4. Cannon hits harder against most targets.
Cannon wins, but not by that wide a margin.

Shuriken Catapault vs Boltgun:
12" range vs 24" range
Pseudorending rends less than once every 4 rounds on a BS4 model. While only having a 12" range.
Boltgun wins by a wide margin.

Shuriken Catapault vs Plasma Gun or Flamer
I don't think I need to expound on this one.

Considering the above, I don't think IoM being outclassed by a technologically superior enemy (CW Eldar) is because their weapons are too weak. CWE stuff is just too cheap.

Actually no, its the cheap as dirt oks that have bs2.

Space marines already pay for their right now so the point cost wouldn't change.

Imperial weapons on a whole are pretty bad for their cost.

"Assault Cannon by a mile. Range does a lot, but actual-rending makes the AC outperform Lascannons in anti-tank (seriously, run some numbers). "

That is the one of the most insane things I've ever seen written. The +12" is so, so, so valuable. Assault cannons are actually poor, imo. 24" range sucks. It suck even more now that the scatbikes are on the job. A lot of that has to do with the platforms. Which you are conveniently ignoring.

If anything we should be talking about the imperiums fairly ineffective defensive equipment.

(looking at you terminator armor)

 raiden wrote:

No weapon comes stock with anything. But sure. You can have the bolters, I'll still take the shoota.

Eh, i was trying o tell you that there's no use comparing a bolter with a shoota in vacuum. They're wielded by completely different troops with completely different roles. Not telling about transports, unit synergies, army rules or the lack of them.

The boltgun, in practice, still sucks.

The boltgun contributes to the overcosted factor of Space Marines, because they can't effectively use their best guns and their best cc skills at the same time.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
The boltgun contributes to the overcosted factor of Space Marines, because they can't effectively use their best guns and their best cc skills at the same time.

It's not just that. S4 shooting with no special rules sucks. Because no one is really silly enough to run around with footdar like Bharring is always hypothetically putting the boltgun up against. Most games, my boltguns have zero good targets until a superior weapon cracks a tank or some such thing.

 koooaei wrote:

 raiden wrote:

No weapon comes stock with anything. But sure. You can have the bolters, I'll still take the shoota.

Eh, i was trying o tell you that there's no use comparing a bolter with a shoota in vacuum. They're wielded by completely different troops with completely different roles. Not telling about transports, unit synergies, army rules or the lack of them.

And I'm saying its a much better weapon. One I'd take any day of the week in any scenario.

If you're saying the Boltgun compares poorly to the Multimelta, sure.

But compared to the Shuriken Catapault? It compares favorably. If you need antitank, the Shuriken Catapault isn't going to do anything a Boltgun isn't.

Bharring wrote:
If you're saying the Boltgun compares poorly to the Multimelta, sure.

But compared to the Shuriken Catapault? It compares favorably. If you need antitank, the Shuriken Catapault isn't going to do anything a Boltgun isn't.

It's not just that. It's how the weapon fits into the over all picture. It's harder to field a list that nullifies shuriken catapults because of the pseudo rending. MCs have to at least pretend to pay attention. They can straight ignore any number of bolters. You can also nullify the bolter by putting the marines in a position where they must assault. The failings of the boltgun are many.

Bharring wrote:
If you're saying the Boltgun compares poorly to the Multimelta, sure.

But compared to the Shuriken Catapault? It compares favorably. If you need antitank, the Shuriken Catapault isn't going to do anything a Boltgun isn't.

As said. The catapauly is still miles away and ahead. It takes out any target with 4+ armor or better 1/6th better than bolter.

Its a lot easier to nullify a Shuriken Catapault than a Boltgun.

Don't let them come within 12". Boltguns can shoot *24*".

On the other hand, if an MC is strong enough to not care much about Boltguns, such as Dreadknights and Riptides, they also don't care much about Shuriken Catapults. Nearly double nearly zero is still almost zero.

If we're talking about situations where "Marines need to assault", we aren't talking about weapon tech anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, Raiden, it doesn't.

Between 12 and 24", its boltguns all the way obviously.

Between 0" and 12", the Catapault is better, but in the same league as the Boltgun.

allow Leman Russ tanks to have alternate shells from IA normally for a small points cost.

Infernus shells for essentially "big blast flamers"

Ilum shells

Beast Hunter Shells for Instant Death

etc.

^ sounds good.

Also.,IIRC the shuriken catapault is 18" range.

You're thinking the Avenger Shuriken Catapault.

The Shuriken Catapault is 12".

Make it so boltgun's can take special issue ammunition for 3 pts for each different on they take.
So if you wanted all 4 it would be an extra 12ppm ( which brings the total to 2 points more than sternguard)

That way you give better veratility to the bolter, and still keep sternguard special by giving them a "discount".

Bharring wrote:
Its a lot easier to nullify a Shuriken Catapault than a Boltgun.

Don't let them come within 12". Boltguns can shoot *24*".

On the other hand, if an MC is strong enough to not care much about Boltguns, such as Dreadknights and Riptides, they also don't care much about Shuriken Catapults. Nearly double nearly zero is still almost zero.

If we're talking about situations where "Marines need to assault", we aren't talking about weapon tech anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, Raiden, it doesn't.

Between 12 and 24", its boltguns all the way obviously.

Between 0" and 12", the Catapault is better, but in the same league as the Boltgun.

I think that boltguns might as well not shoot out to 24" because the firepower is so terrible.

If I were a GK player with a DK, I'd pay very close attention to shuriken catapults. 5++ is not so hot against the rends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
You're thinking the Avenger Shuriken Catapault.

The Shuriken Catapault is 12".

That's also the only catapult I ever see, so to me, the other one might as well not exist.

Or can we just get rid of the presudo rending

its a bullgak rule.

IF ANYTHING for such an insane army wide rule it should drop the armor save by 1 on rolls of 6.

but fethin rending is insane.