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Well, if you let 54 models all shoot you at 12", then sure, they are scary.

But a unit of 10? EV is less than one wound a round.


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Boltguns might do worse, but at that scale, it won't change much.

Bharring wrote:
Well, if you let 54 models all shoot you at 12", then sure, they are scary.

But a unit of 10? EV is less than one wound a round.


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Boltguns might do worse, but at that scale, it won't change much.

It's a kick in the teeth that undergunned marines don't need. On top of ranged-D, scat bikes, scatterwalkers, warp spiders, scat Vypers, etc. The weapons systems you are comparing the boltgun to don't even get fired at me most of time, because they don't need to.

20 BS 4 shots produce 13 hits, which, on average, produce around 2 rends. That's before psychic shenanigans. Remember, the context matters a lot as well.

Make all Bolt weapons concussive. They are explosive rounds and concussive wouldn't be as OP as *cough* Bladestorm *cough* .

I screwed up my numbers by half. 10 Shuriken Catapults that a DK lets waltz into within 12" of it has an EV of less than 2 wounds.

Compared to the difference between the EV of a Boltgun and a Shuriken Catapault at 12-24"?

Seriously, how us 36" ap6 so much better than 24" ap4 rending, but 24" ap5 so much worse than 12" ap5 fake-rending?

Eldar are clearly OP. But their weapon systems aren't as blindingly OP as you make them out to be. The problem is that they are stupidly cheap. They should be better, but more expensive.

It's 18" not 12". I haven't seen a 12' catapult in over a decade. Let's deal with the game as it is played, not hypotheticals. 18" with battle focus to boot,

And 36" is so hot because it out ranges the 24" stuff like assault cannons, and the 24" range weapons can't move 6" and get in range.

Similarly, a Fusion Pistol is outperformed by a MultiMelta.

Moving goalposts much?
1) If we're going by the usage you see, you claim you never see the Boltgun do anything either, so having not seen the Shuriken Catapault either, so not having seen it (I highly doubt that - not a single Jetbike in the last two years?) doesn't change anything.

1) Apples to Apples. The Shuriken Catapault is the basic sidearm of choice. The Avenger Shuriken Catapault is more analogous to either the Storm Bolter, or a mix of Boltguns and Plasma Guns. It is a specialized weapon for a specialized role.

(Also, similarly, a 12" range weapon cannot move 6" into range of a weapon 24" away.)

If only your comparisons made me not get my face pounded by Eldar. Over. And over. And over.

I'm not trying to move the goalposts, just trying to inject some reality into the hypothetical-based discussion.

Eldar are in luck! They no longer have to field a single catapult anymore. Only the best for them: scatterlasers.

Just asking, what exactly outside of a land raider carries an assault cannon, and is still worth taking? Land speeder with assault cannon, what are they 70 points, dies to bolter fire. Dreadnoughts, more durable, but so painfully slow compared to anything that carries a scatterlaser. Lets see a dreadnought make it into melee with eldar before it dies. Oh, and last but not least, the ever impressive terminators, the most overpowered unit in the game. All bend before their awesome power. So really, what exactly carries an assault cannon that'll actually do anything?

Platforms for some Imperial heavies is certainly a problem.

I'm not arguing that Eldar aren't OP. I'm arguing that huge buffs to IoM weapons aren't the right move.

Scatterbikes are a problem because they can each take a heavy weapon, and do so cheaply.

Maybe not, but the IoM has so much junk equipment and so many junk units that no one wants to be nerfed down to their level of incompetence.

Yeah, noone wants to be brought "down" to IoM levels.

Except for Orks.
And CSM.
And renegades.
And Nids.
And Dark Eldar.
And maybe Tau.

But all the rest of the armies (Necrons and Craftworlders), never.

If you are going to compare guardians, compare them to scouts. Dire avengers to space marines is more fitting.

Especially since no one takes guardians unless they have to, or are running a mythical footdar list.

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, noone wants to be brought "down" to IoM levels.

Except for Orks.
And CSM.
And renegades.
And Nids.
And Dark Eldar.
And maybe Tau.

But all the rest of the armies (Necrons and Craftworlders), never.

Go ahead, you sell the Necron and Eldar players on it. It's much easier to buff everyone up to the same level than to tear everyone down.

Do those other lists have as many junk units as IoM? I don't know. But the existence of grav cents does not make the IoM suddenly some fun, balanced list to play. The entire AM is some kind of bad joke, and all the marine chapters that lack very specific tech are dumpster fires. The only thing that keeps the SW around is TWC, which aren't even as good as Wraiths. And BA and DA don't even have units as good as TWC.


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 Crazyterran wrote:
If you are going to compare guardians, compare them to scouts. Dire avengers to space marines is more fitting.

Especially since no one takes guardians unless they have to, or are running a mythical footdar list.

I respect Bharring's logic, but much of it has limited application in practice from what I can tell. The mythical 12" catapult being case in point.

Dude, considering all the Windrider Jetbikes, Jet Seers, and in 6th, Jet Warlocks, if you never noticed alll the TL Shuriken Catapults they carried, its really hard to believe that they really are all that great.

The Avenger Shuriken Catapault, on the other hand is an advanced specialist weapon. Its much more analogous to the Storm Bolter. 6" less range and fake-rending. Better, but somewhat of a tradeoff. Seems right to me.

Shouldn't IoM weapons be at least a little worse than Eldar tech? Especially tech designed for a specific purpose?

The Avenger Shuriken Catapult *should* be better than the boltgun. They should pay for it, of course (an argument that could go on for days, but a different argument).

The problem is probably not the strength of CW Eldar heavy weapons, but how easily they bring them to bear. But then, not every thread needs to be about Wind riders, just like not every thread needed to be about Wave Serpents previously.

(Most Eldar players I've talked wanted nerfs, not buffs, from the last Codex.)

Bharring wrote:
Dude, considering all the Windrider Jetbikes, Jet Seers, and in 6th, Jet Warlocks, if you never noticed alll the TL Shuriken Catapults they carried, its really hard to believe that they really are all that great.

The Avenger Shuriken Catapault, on the other hand is an advanced specialist weapon. Its much more analogous to the Storm Bolter. 6" less range and fake-rending. Better, but somewhat of a tradeoff. Seems right to me.

Shouldn't IoM weapons be at least a little worse than Eldar tech? Especially tech designed for a specific purpose?

The Avenger Shuriken Catapult *should* be better than the boltgun. They should pay for it, of course (an argument that could go on for days, but a different argument).

The problem is probably not the strength of CW Eldar heavy weapons, but how easily they bring them to bear. But then, not every thread needs to be about Wind riders, just like not every thread needed to be about Wave Serpents previously.

(Most Eldar players I've talked wanted nerfs, not buffs, from the last Codex.)

The problem is that some IoM weapons (boltguns) are worse than ORK weapons. And, while I agree that IoM weapons should be inferior to Eldar weapons, they are taking a triple hit of being worse in annoying ways (assault cannon range is horrifically bad news), being overcosted (I'm looking at you, again, assault cannon), and having crappy, horrible platforms (OMG, there's the assault cannon again!). Like Space Marine Land Speeders. Land Raiders. Non-fast tanks with horrible side armor. Foot slogging losers like devastators. They just don't WORK. And now with scatbikes, IoM needs their heavy weapons to work, and they don't.

"The problem is probably not the strength of CW Eldar heavy weapons, but how easily they bring them to bear"

Yes, because IoM and Orks get crap platforms which exacerbates the weapon disparity.

"But then, not every thread needs to be about Wind riders, just like not every thread needed to be about Wave Serpents previously. "

If those are the units that really matter, which they are, then they will be talked about and used as a standard. Because people in the trenches playing will probably see them. A lot.

Erhmerhgerhd, the power creep, best creep the power to solve it.

No.

 God In Action wrote:
Erhmerhgerhd, the power creep, best creep the power to solve it.

No.

Actually, yes, because it's clear that GW is not in the business of nerfing anymore. How can anyone have this position after the last two codices that GW vomited forth? Even if nerfing were the preferred solution, it's TOO LATE because CW Eldar was just released. They are the new normal.

Martel732 wrote:

 God In Action wrote:
Erhmerhgerhd, the power creep, best creep the power to solve it.

No.

Actually, yes, because it's clear that GW is not in the business of nerfing anymore. How can anyone have this position after the last two codices that GW vomited forth? Even if nerfing were the preferred solution, it's TOO LATE because CW Eldar was just released. They are the new normal.

Because the whole point of a proposed rules section is to ignore what GW do and instead suggest the ideal improvement. If you're on a proposed rules forum, you're already past the point of bucking the trend and moving against the flow.


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And of course because a power creep in once place creates a power creep in another. Following the new normal doesn't stabilise 40k- it just prolongs the imbalance.

It ends the imbalance if a power level is picked and stuck with.

Why have they not made an assault cannon predator?

Twin linked assault cannon turret-same cost built in as the auto cannon
2 side sponson assault cannon turret-20 or 30 pts?

Why dont they have assault cannons on bikes or attack bikes?

The BA have an assault cannon predator. It's still bad because 24" range exposes the AV 11 side. Same reason the vindicator is flawed.

I've noticed that the "buff marines" threads come in two types.

1. Marines aren't survivable enough. They should be tougher.

2. Marine weapons don't do enough damage, They should kill more stuff.

Since one of the primary enemies of marine armies is other marines (or other people with Imperial weaponry), these are contradictory demands.

they need to spam assault cannons on bikes to balance out scat bikes.

Alcibiades wrote:
I've noticed that the "buff marines" threads come in two types.

1. Marines aren't survivable enough. They should be tougher.

2. Marine weapons don't do enough damage, They should kill more stuff.

Since one of the primary enemies of marine armies is other marines (or other people with Imperial weaponry), these are contradictory demands.

Calling bull. I fight more xenos than anything. With the two new codex's out. I don't wonder why.

Hell. I had to fight tooth and nail to keep my "overpowered" plasma talons from being made into rapid fire 24 per the FAQ. and that's only in my local area.


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 Filch wrote:
they need to spam assault cannons on bikes to balance out scat bikes.

We still lose. 36" vs 24 with one side having JSJ and both moving 12.

 raiden wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I've noticed that the "buff marines" threads come in two types.

1. Marines aren't survivable enough. They should be tougher.

2. Marine weapons don't do enough damage, They should kill more stuff.

Since one of the primary enemies of marine armies is other marines (or other people with Imperial weaponry), these are contradictory demands.

Calling bull. I fight more xenos than anything. With the two new codex's out. I don't wonder why.

Hell. I had to fight tooth and nail to keep my "overpowered" plasma talons from being made into rapid fire 24 per the FAQ. and that's only in my local area.


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 Filch wrote:
they need to spam assault cannons on bikes to balance out scat bikes.

We still lose. 36" vs 24 with one side having JSJ and both moving 12.

Anecdotal player base is anecdotal. What he is getting at is statistically, Marine players will more often than not face off against another Marine player, because Marines comprise the majority of 40k's 'army base' with the wide array of chapters in book, and the ones who got their own off shoot. Space Marines, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Puppies, Chaos Marines, and to an extent Sisters, are all power armor focused books. Thats 6-7 armies dedicated to JUST armor wearing Humans. And since they typically tend to be the most popular, or most iconic of the armies, they get played by more people. You're bound to run into more Marine on Marine matches. I know I do. Out of the 20 players in my area, 12 of them have Marine armies. I'm the only one of 2 Ork players. But my situation does not mean that everywhere else, Ork players are scarce. Nor does it mean every place has a majority Marines players. But on a global scale, i'd put money down that Marines and their offshoots are in fact the most widely used army.

While player bases will differ from area to area, it's not an unreasonable conclusion to make that if we took a poll of every Marine player in the world, and compiled the data, it would point to Marines fighting Marines as the most common match up (Outside of tournaments, of course)

 Desubot wrote:
Or can we just get rid of the presudo rending

its a bullgak rule.

IF ANYTHING for such an insane army wide rule it should drop the armor save by 1 on rolls of 6.

but fethin rending is insane.

It's really not. A full squad of avengers will kill something like 2 extra marines with their pseudo-rends. They'll lose bodies to the small arms fire of most armies than marines will, so those 2 extra kills quickly become 1 extra kill.

I've been playing my marines more lately, and I what I've found isn't that xenos/skitarii weapons are insanely good. It's just that marines don't synergize with their own weapons particularly well. If you're shooting your melta at a vehicle, you're at most lobbing a single krak grenade and maybe firing a combi-weapon to go with it while any bolter marines sit around being less than helpful (except against AV 10 stuff). Marines having better strength, toughness, and armor is a pretty nice boon, but it helps a lot more when you don't have to choose between rapid firing and assaulting. I find this to be more of a minior flaw with the rules for marines than with the rules for xenos weapons. Bladestorm/gauss/whatever generally makes the unit firing it feel more fitting for its fluff. Bolters make you give up your assault.

As for shootas being better than bolters, well, yes. Kind of. They're better guns given to a worse gunman. A shoota lets an ork get his shots off without giving up assault. Big shootas can be fired on the move, but they'll hit half as often as a space marine will with a bolter. Platforms are kind of important.

Imperial tech feels mostly fine to me. Again, I think the problem mostly lies in unit design rather than weapon design. That said, making it possible to assault after firing bolters would be very helpful.

Bolters 24" S4 shred AP5
Storm bolters 24" S5 shred AP4
Assault cannon 30" S5 AP6
Lasgun 24" S3 AP5


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Heavy bolter 36" S4 AP4

Because Boltguns should be superior to all other weapons all the time?

A while back i suggested replacing Bladestorm with Shred. It was a terrible idea, as people quickly pointed out. Shred everywhere was just bullgakingly OP.

This has been beat to death. There is no mathematical wiggle room for most Imperial weapons. The boltgun is garbage for the price of an meq. Build your lists accordingly.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Or can we just get rid of the presudo rending

its a bullgak rule.

IF ANYTHING for such an insane army wide rule it should drop the armor save by 1 on rolls of 6.

but fethin rending is insane.

It's really not. A full squad of avengers will kill something like 2 extra marines with their pseudo-rends. They'll lose bodies to the small arms fire of most armies than marines will, so those 2 extra kills quickly become 1 extra kill.

Not as many people care of about the extra marines or two.

People will care when its there Sternguards, Terminators, artificer armor, Centurions, and so forth. these things will die to RoF like normal but the extra rends push it over pretty quickly. makes it so these basic troops suddenly rack up more points for the investments. though this is situational since if you were only fighting like guardsmen then the rule didnt matter in the first place.