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I've played many games against 30k Marine and Ad Mech armies, and my general impression is they are not balanced against 40k armies, and are a bit on the OP side in regular 40k.

But now with Necrons and the new Eldar I'd have to reevaluate that impression.

Take grav guns, drink primarch tears?

Keeping in mind that I play Tau, I wouldn't mind it as long as my opponent could keep from saying, 'Aren't your guys supposed to be blue skinned Skinks?'

I don't see why not. I'd love to fight against a 30k legion with my 40k army.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I feel it's against the fluff

I think if someone came with 30k army, I'll allow it. Why not?
If something is really unbalanced, we'll fix it after two or three games.

But, anyway, I don't think there is someone who playing AoD in my city, kheheh.

You should always play a game against a 30k army, the forces are nicely balanced and it uses the 40k rulebook anyway.
I got the feeling that the primarchs are a bit tame compared to how me and friends were imagining them way back!
Any cheese which gets discovered gets nerfed (mortariat) and at the points level most people play they come across as quite 'elite'.
You shouldn't worry about primarchs as they are a LOW and that can leave you free to bring some much nastier stuff.

When i first got my Mechanicum models people did need a little nudge to give it a go, but most of the time i didn't need to convince them because they just wanted to see the models!

Now i just say what i play - it just takes a bit of time to go through all the stuff my opponent hasn't seen before and all the funky options i have available to me.

My one reservation is Volkites. Their low point cost clearly reflects their ineffectiveness in the almost* pure 3+/4+ save environment that they were created for. They would be fine against MEQ and probably Tau & Necrons, but I would never take them against 5+ army without at least doubling the price of the guns.

* so far the only 5+ save units in the 30k milieu are 3pt tech-thralls, and even they have the option of upgrading to Carapace.

The Imperial Army is an entire 30K faction of 5+sv dudes.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Primarchs are impressive beatsticks but even the cheapest goes for what, 385? It goes up from there.

Most tend to be taken for their armywide presence rather then their ability to beatstick. Cept Angron, who is pretty much as one would expect: A straight up beatstick (but he's got 3+ so even he has issues).

They also don't have Strength D

that is mostly irrelevant when you have mountains of s10 ap2/1 anyway.

I mean for 645 a legion basically gets a weapon that can blast whole chunks out of an eldar army in single volleys and just looks at all the special rules nonsense they can do and then keeps on trucking with 0 faxes given. You couldn't ask for much more than a doom cannon that lays waste to everything the enemy could field anyway.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Imperial Army is an entire 30K faction of 5+sv dudes.

Not yet it isn't. So far the only Imperial Army FW has produced are the Solar Auxilia, who are all 4+

 ionusx wrote:
I mean for 645 a legion basically gets a weapon that can blast whole chunks out of an eldar army in single volleys and just looks at all the special rules nonsense they can do and then keeps on trucking with 0 faxes given. You couldn't ask for much more than a doom cannon that lays waste to everything the enemy could field anyway.

What unit is this?

 ionusx wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Primarchs are impressive beatsticks but even the cheapest goes for what, 385? It goes up from there.

Most tend to be taken for their armywide presence rather then their ability to beatstick. Cept Angron, who is pretty much as one would expect: A straight up beatstick (but he's got 3+ so even he has issues).

They also don't have Strength D

that is mostly irrelevant when you have mountains of s10 ap2/1 anyway.

I mean for 645 a legion basically gets a weapon that can blast whole chunks out of an eldar army in single volleys and just looks at all the special rules nonsense they can do and then keeps on trucking with 0 faxes given. You couldn't ask for much more than a doom cannon that lays waste to everything the enemy could field anyway.

They also have unwieldy (For those that typically have above S9, Lorgar is the only exception with S8), and aren't immune to strength D or scat lasers, how are the Primarchs blasting whole chunks out of an Eldar army again?

I play a lot of 30k mostly with EC or WB and I've played a few games vs 40k armies and the primarchs are a tad to much, some aren't to bad but other (i'm looking at you vulkan) are crazy

Vulkan is rather evil against Tau, yes.

Your pulse rifles won't work. Your plasma rifles won't work.

Vulkan overall is amazingly tanky, though expensive.

That said, it's a rather isolated incident.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Your pulse rifles won't work.

Why wouldn't pulse rifles work? Didn't they get rid of that idiotic "pulse rifles are plasma weapons" ruling when the old GK codex was replaced?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Your pulse rifles won't work.

Why wouldn't pulse rifles work? Didn't they get rid of that idiotic "pulse rifles are plasma weapons" ruling when the old GK codex was replaced?

It's possible they did. If so, Pulse Rifles can actually harm him. Although, they still need a 6+ to wound, and need to get through his various saves and defenses.

Aren't pulse weapons supposed to be low-powered plasma weapons, anyway?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Aren't pulse weapons supposed to be low-powered plasma weapons, anyway?

Maybe somewhere in their technobabble fluff. Rules-wise they aren't.

Well, ruleswise there is no 'plasma' quality at all.

There's the descriptive name, which is the only thing we can go with, but it's just as much a fluff thing.

For instance, the Starcannon is also a plasma weapon without 'plasma' in its name, and so is the burst cannon.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Vulkan is rather evil against Tau, yes.

Your pulse rifles won't work. Your plasma rifles won't work.

Vulkan overall is amazingly tanky, though expensive.

That said, it's a rather isolated incident.

its not really, my top 30k army is involves Lorgar and Bel'akor, both of which are invisible for the entire game along with 5-10 Gal vorbak or terminators who are with Lorgar and the 2 sicarans sitting behind them shooting. 40k armies cant compete with that easily.

My EC usually have fulgrim and terminators delivered straight at a deathstar via a spartan, fulgrim will kill just anything in a challenge that's in a 40k army with ease. hell even in 30k its only horus and vulkan that generally beat him and that's usual a 50/50 fight still.

This is just there standard combat power, these primarchs also buff their army massively to boot. I have no issues with 30k being used vs me or when people ask to fight my stuff but Primarchs should never be used vs 40k armies without a handicap imo, it just spoils the game.

Mainstream GW products contan far more OP/Broken units than anything FW make - look at the Eldar Cheesedex or the new Knights verus the FW ones - Avenger Gatling cannon - Str 6, AP3 Heavy 12, Rending,

30k against 40k should not be a problem for anyone really - less and less people will have all dexes as time passes and they keep increasing the fragmentaiton of factions so that poor excuse shuld be even less valid than it was before.....

dark_red wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Vulkan is rather evil against Tau, yes.

Your pulse rifles won't work. Your plasma rifles won't work.

Vulkan overall is amazingly tanky, though expensive.

That said, it's a rather isolated incident.

its not really, my top 30k army is involves Lorgar and Bel'akor, both of which are invisible for the entire game along with 5-10 Gal vorbak or terminators who are with Lorgar and the 2 sicarans sitting behind them shooting. 40k armies cant compete with that easily.

Gal Vorbak are 3+ infantry who need to slog it up the table. They are strong, but they are not OP in itself, and neither are terminators.

Both Be'lakor and Lorgar are entirely fine if you take away Invisibility, which is utterly broken.

I might also add that Invisibility is a core 40k thing, as is Be'lakor.

dark_red wrote:
my top 30k army is involves Lorgar and Bel'akor

Isn't Bel'akor a 40k unit? How are you using that in a 30k army? And it sounds like the main problem with that army is invisibility, not the 30k stuff. The solution is to ban/change invisibility, not to ban the 30k units.

fulgrim will kill just anything in a challenge that's in a 40k army with ease

Who cares about challenges? Melee is hardly relevant in 40k, and you don't need a primarch to kill a 5-man tactical squad. The fact that you can massively overkill the sergeant in that 5-man tactical squad doesn't change anything, especially since most of the time the sergeant is going to refuse the challenge to ensure that the marines lose combat and leave your primarch squad open to shooting next turn.

these primarchs also buff their army massively to boot

You know what's better than handing out army buffs? Wiping a whole army off the table with a D-weapon titan, something you can do just fine in "normal" 40k without any 30k rules at all.

 Peregrine wrote:
Isn't Bel'akor a 40k unit? How are you using that in a 30k army?

Word Bearers can ally with Chaos Daemons.

Be'lakor remains a 40k unit, however, just one that is legally allied into 30k.

Also, Vulkan (for example) is hardy, but he is easy to tarpit. Charge him with Wraiths and he will sit there all game tied up and doing nothing.

Long post ahead, as I will attempt to provide some information that may help inform the uninformed, address some issues mentioned, and possibly clear up some misconceptions. This is based on my own experience, from theorizing, and from what I've read here and on other forums. Not all metas are the same, so there will always be the outlier where the 30K army roflstomps everything it come across, and also where the 30K army never even manages a single victory point.

1. Remember, at the core, the Legions are still just Space Marines, with the same Space Marine statline we're all familiar with. They do have one glaring difference from 40K SM: the Legions do not have ATSKNF. So, sweeping them in combat is a thing. In fact, many of the Legions have special rules, wargear, and units that are intended to do their best in the assault phase. But this becomes a liability against 40K SM, as 40K SM have ATSKNF. Essentially, my Emperor's Children function at a handicap against 40K SM because all my abilities to dominate the assault phase that are great against other 30K armies, are now useless against many of the more common 40K armies. Also, being the same SM statline, if you already have no problems killing 40K SM, you'll have no problems killing the Legions. Plasma still works. Volume of fire, high strength or otherwise, still works.

2. Points. 30K ain't cheap. There is an initial tax on every squad, but additional members for that squad cost less. This is to encourage the use of large units. For example, a 10-man Tactical squad starts at 150pt. Every marine added after that only costs 10 each, though, for a total of 250pts for a 20-man Tactical squad.. But, that Tactical squad has no special or heavy weapons (apart from slapping a combi-weapon on the sarge). Just bolters. Now, that squad can shoot twice if they don't move and give up shooting until their next turn. So, yes, potentially 80 bolter shots if within 12". But, if you voluntarily walk your units up to within 12" of that Tactical squad, well, you deserve what you get. As mentioned, there are squads of 5-10 marines that can all carry special or heavy weapons (must all be the same weapon), but these units aren't cheap, either. A 10-man unit of plasmaguns sounds scary, but that unit costs 325pts minimum, and will kill at least one of its own from overheating plasma. A 10-man heavy support squad of just missile launchers starts at 285pts, and can be 435pts with lascannons. And, again, they still die the same as any other marines. You won't see MSU in the Legions (because of the buy-in tax), and you won't see much of the big scary stuff in games of 2000pts or less because of how much all the "good stuff" costs when you're still needing to build just the base of the army.

3. Legion vehicles. Some, like Predators and the artillery tanks can come in squadrons (although, strangely, Vindicators do not). Many can take the Armored Ceramite upgrade to ignore the Melta rule (but S8 AP 1 can still be quite effective to anything less than AV14, anyway). Spartans (bigger Land Raiders) can also take an upgrade called a Flare Shield that reduces incoming attacks from the front by -1S (-2S if a blast or template). So, yes, a Spartan with Flare Shield and Armored Ceramite will be a tough bugger, but it's also 340pts before the cost of the guys inside, and it's not particularly stronger than a regular Land Raider (2 lascannon shots from each sponson instead of 1) on its own. Anyway, most Legion vehicles are available in 40K (but in more limited numbers as most have the Relic of the Armory rule), so many of them may already be familiar to you.

4. Volkite weapons. These are S5 or S6, AP5 weapons that cause an additional hit for each unsaved wound (but the extra hits cannot cause more hits). The special and heavy versions have good range and extra shots. These weapons fill a role that 40K SM lack: ranged anti-horde (sorry, but heavy bolters just don't cut it, and there is no special weapon in 40K for that role). So, yes, Volkite can be a surprise for the 40K player. Volkites aren't given a high cost, due to being less effective against 2/3/4+ save armies, but Volkites only appear in significant numbers in the support and heavy weapon squads. And, as mentioned above, they ain't cheap. A 10-man Volkite support squad is 225pts and the heavy version is 335pts. And they still die as easily as any other marine. Yes, they'll do some damage to you, but will they do 200+pts of damage to you before you neutralize them? Is it largely any different than a 40K SM tactical squad kitted out with flamers and drop-podding in Turn 1 and flaming to death one of your squads? You're just not going to see a gunline of Volkites in a Legion army.

5. Primarchs. The Baddest of Dudes. And one "6" away from disappearing to a stomp from an Imperial Knight. Like all LoW in 30K, they cannot be taken in games less than 2000pts (and LoW also cannot exceed 25% of your total points) They do provide good army-wide bonuses. They're all good beatsticks, too. But even some 40K characters will hold their own against them (Smashfether comes to mind). Also, they will usually have an associated cost that brings them up to 700-1000pts, as they need a bodyguard and a delivery system (usually a terminator squad of some type and a Spartan or Storm Eagle). So, when you see a Primarch, try to stay away from it and just deal with the rest of the army. Not always possible, so feel free to feed expendable units to it whenever you can. If you can tarpit him for a turn or two, then you're doing good. Some can even go down to good shooting. For example, Fulgrim's invulnerable save is only 5++ against shooting.

6. Army Construction. FW has suggested that both armies should use the same force organisation (either both use the 30K force org, or both use the 40K detachment/formation system). I find it best for 30K to use their own, and 40K to use their own. 30K doesn't get all the cool formations 40K has available (but they do have something similar, Rites of War, that give you some bonuses in exchange for taking and/or not taking certain kinds of units). After all, is it really fair to tell the 40K player they can't use their formations while you get to use your Rites of War, and is it fair for the 40K player to say "I get to use all my cool formations, but you can't take that extra Elite and HQ slot your 30K force org allows." It is also best to keep the allies matrix separate (30K only allying with 30K, 40K only with 40K, except for the previously mentioned Word Bearers + Demons).

7. Mechanicum. The very definition of quality over quantity. Strong guns, tough models, but not a lot of them. The Mechanicum are guaranteed to paste any one of your units each turn. But, apart from Tech-thralls, the cheapest model in the Mech army starts at about 30pts and only goes up from there. They can have lots of monstrous creatures (the battle-automata), and lots of multi-wound infantry (Thallax and Myrmidons), But, just to give you an idea, my 2000pt Mechanicum army is less than 30 models. Generally speaking, if you can already deal with Eldar wraith stuff, Nidzilla, or even the durability of Necrons, you can handle the Mechanicum.

8. Solar Auxilia. I don't have much experience with them, yet. Basically, army of IG veterans in carapace armor with longer ranged lasguns, but no IG orders.

In closing, there are no real "tricks" in the 30K armies compared to 40K. They can't do the usual allies shenanigans. Their deathstars are usually fairly straightforward (beatstick + bodyguard + delivery vehicle). 30K simply doesn't have the equivalent of the gravcentstar, screamerstar, or many of the other nasties you see in all the competitive 40K armies.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 ionusx wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Primarchs are impressive beatsticks but even the cheapest goes for what, 385? It goes up from there.

Most tend to be taken for their armywide presence rather then their ability to beatstick. Cept Angron, who is pretty much as one would expect: A straight up beatstick (but he's got 3+ so even he has issues).

They also don't have Strength D

that is mostly irrelevant when you have mountains of s10 ap2/1 anyway.

I mean for 645 a legion basically gets a weapon that can blast whole chunks out of an eldar army in single volleys and just looks at all the special rules nonsense they can do and then keeps on trucking with 0 faxes given. You couldn't ask for much more than a doom cannon that lays waste to everything the enemy could field anyway.

They also have unwieldy (For those that typically have above S9, Lorgar is the only exception with S8), and aren't immune to strength D or scat lasers, how are the Primarchs blasting whole chunks out of an Eldar army again?

Ferrus's hammer is S10, AP1 at I5, very good at knocking chunks out of most things in combat, he once knocked a Knight's head clean across the table.

I've played by 30k Knights and 30k Mechanicum lists a few times against 40k armies, works fine. I wouldn't want to play 30k at less than 2k though against a 40k army, I just don't feel that 30k scales down the same as 40k does.

 Looky Likey wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 ionusx wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Primarchs are impressive beatsticks but even the cheapest goes for what, 385? It goes up from there.

Most tend to be taken for their armywide presence rather then their ability to beatstick. Cept Angron, who is pretty much as one would expect: A straight up beatstick (but he's got 3+ so even he has issues).

They also don't have Strength D

that is mostly irrelevant when you have mountains of s10 ap2/1 anyway.

I mean for 645 a legion basically gets a weapon that can blast whole chunks out of an eldar army in single volleys and just looks at all the special rules nonsense they can do and then keeps on trucking with 0 faxes given. You couldn't ask for much more than a doom cannon that lays waste to everything the enemy could field anyway.

They also have unwieldy (For those that typically have above S9, Lorgar is the only exception with S8), and aren't immune to strength D or scat lasers, how are the Primarchs blasting whole chunks out of an Eldar army again?

Ferrus's hammer is S10, AP1 at I5, very good at knocking chunks out of most things in combat, he once knocked a Knight's head clean across the table.

I've played by 30k Knights and 30k Mechanicum lists a few times against 40k armies, works fine. I wouldn't want to play 30k at less than 2k though against a 40k army, I just don't feel that 30k scales down the same as 40k does.

I had entirely forgotten Forgebreaker wasn't unwieldy when Ferrus wields it, I remembered it from Perturbo's rules.

 j31c3n wrote:
I don't see why not. I'd love to fight against a 30k legion with my 40k army.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I feel it's against the fluff

Yep, you caught me. Just call me the Catholic Church, I'm TOTALLY out to ruin everyone's fun. RAWR!

Sure, but I'm not interested in playing against Primarchs or Super Heavies.

I'd certainly run my 30k army against someone's Dark Eldar or orks or whatever.

Eh. 30k sounds like a bunch of IoM fanboyism. It's not up my alley but if the choice was between that or no game I'd give it a try.

lustigjh wrote:
Eh. 30k sounds like a bunch of IoM fanboyism. It's not up my alley but if the choice was between that or no game I'd give it a try.

I find that more frequently its chaos fanboyism.

People just really want chaos space marine rules that aren't bland vanilla as all get out. Besides my Mechanicum (which i have always wanted to play but previously did not exist in 40k, and even now I find the FW rules to be far more unique and interesting than Like Guard But Different Skiitari) I have only ever faced CSM armies in 30k.

Why they can't just give chaos chapter tactics in the exact same way that the imperium gets them is absolutely beyond me.