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The results for the 50+ two day ict tournament are in with only one of the new Eldar coming in the top ten.
They will probably still prove to be a top tier army but they will not be completely dominant as some of the hysteria suggested.

Storm of Silence 2015 Results: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Results-Storm_WLDsort.pdf

orks won. necrons and skitarii came second, with four necrons in top ten.

I understand that one data point is not a pattern but this shows you cant just turn up with 40 scatter bikes a wraithknight and some
D-Scythes and beat every one.

shouldn't the number of armies per faction sort of weight the results? Perhaps the Skitarii are more powerful, but when there were only one showing of them and 5 from Eldar players we cannot know how such things can be skewed.

I would like to see more results of more tournaments, but this does show that elder wont ruin the tournament scene with their new dex.

but I would also like to know what restrictions were in place for tournament, (ranged D and such).

nice post

*Eldar: Codex Eldar Craftworlds will be released within the window that allows players to choose whether they will use the old codex or the new. There are some caveat and clarifications to keep in mind
If you choose to use the new Craftworlds Codex at the Storm:
--You CANNOT use any Eldar Forge World units (Hornets, Lynx, Nightwing, etc). Multiple reasons for this but mostly just for my sanity. Feel free to use the old codex if you wish to use Forge World Eldar units.
--You CANNOT use Iyanden Supplement. This is primarily a preventative measure on my part but also appears to be RaW.
--You CANNOT use any 6ed Eldar formations (well the one that is available). This is primarily a preventative measure on my part but also appears to be RaW.
--You can only use one Lord of War at the storm regardless of available slots, so the new codex Wraithknight will be an 0-1 choice and use up the LoW allowance
--No specific detachment can be duplicated at the Storm and this applies even if a detachment is taken inside a decurion style detachment. Also the 0-1 restriction on Lord of War also still applies. However there are selections in a decurion that are not formations or lords of war and these can be duplicated.

So of the the Eldar players we know their lists and which book was brought? So that we can conclude ..... oh right, we can't conclude anything from this.

Sunhero wrote:

I understand that one data point is not a pattern but this shows you cant just turn up with 40 scatter bikes a wraithknight and some
D-Scythes and beat every one.

Off course, that would only be true if someone did turn up with that...

Best Tau: 16th
And Tau are still considered OP. Lawl.

Yes. A tournament two weeks after the codex came out. Clearly enough time for all the the Eldar players to buy tons of Jetbikes and whatnot, get it all painted, get some practice in, and stomp butt.

Since butt-stomping did not occur, we can confidently conclude that the new Eldar codex sucks balls.

You should be a lawyer, OP. You have a firm understanding of this proof business.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Best Tau: 16th
And Tau are still considered OP. Lawl.

and again, what list was used?, who did they play against? etc etc.

There's a reason I hate this sort of "surface" data, it doesn't show you what actually happened.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Best Tau: 16th
And Tau are still considered OP. Lawl.

Tau never seem to rank highly yet are considered OP. Space Marines on the other hand always rank highly yet are not considered OP.

Double standards, double standards everywhere.

Tau haven't really been considered OP in some time. They still have some strong options, but it's mostly a hangover from the last edition and before other books got updated.

Unfortunately, Sunhero, most people are not willing to consider evidence that challenges their preconceived notions. (In fact, research shows that the less rational the belief, the less effective evidence is, in some cases strengthening the prejudice!)

I'm not sure about the specifics, or how representative time results are (I appreciate you stating similar reasonable reservations, btw), but this is at least a little heartening. Thanks!

Clearly you yourself are an example which supports that assertion.

People have provided very clear, logical reasons why this information probably isn't sufficient to draw any real conclusions from, and you're implying they're not rational?

Eldar WILL break competitive with a list that include 12 squads of 3 scatterbikes and 2 wratihknights, among other things.


There were rules set in place about the Eldar, and in general. It is also worth noting the skill of the player and the list that they brought.

"Prove" is an awfully strong word in this case.

Sunhero wrote:
I understand that one data point is not a pattern

That's good, then maybe you should change the title of the thread to something less trollish...

Storm of Silence results prove may suggest Eldar hysteria to be hot air concerns may be unwarranted.

But yeah, 5 Eldar armies in a tournament of 50 or so armies only a couple of weeks after the codex came out is a pretty meaningless data point.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

Best Tau: 16th
And Tau are still considered OP. Lawl.

Tau never seem to rank highly yet are considered OP. Space Marines on the other hand always rank highly yet are not considered OP.

Double standards, double standards everywhere.

I think it's worth pointing out that most people don't say "SM are OP" because they're thinking of specific chapters. How many of those high placing lists were white scars?

Who could have guessed that in a tournament with army composition scores and rating the fun level of your opponents being of equal points value as battle scores eldar might not win, or that orks would place highly? WHOOOOOOOOOO??????????

Oh, hey! Eldar fishing poles- but where's the bait?

Post the list.

Orks won! That's cool right?

 Byte wrote:
Orks won! That's cool right?

Its cool, but it wasn't on the strength of the codex. More like a decent win rate combined with good sportsmanship and army composition scores. Like it should always be to be honest.

SGTPozy wrote:
Tau never seem to rank highly yet are considered OP. Space Marines on the other hand always rank highly yet are not considered OP.

Double standards, double standards everywhere.

In 40k, people often confuse easy to play with overpowered. There are many armies like 6e Wave Serpents and gunline Tau which are easy to play. If you aren't strategically minded and/or experienced in 40k, it seems overpowered, because your army doesn't feel like it has a reasonable counter. And damn, they killed you so effortlessly using a simple strategy. You had no hope.

But actually, what is usually closer to the truth is that many of those easy to play armies are quite limited in what they can do and quite predictable. They rarely take tournaments, because against an experienced player with a more flexible army with a more unexpected bag of tricks, they will lose a disproportionate number of games.

They feel overpowered because in they overperform in the "casual competitive" scene -- ie those who like to think themselves as competitive, but actually aren't really that great, would never win a serious tournament, and really haven't invested that much time in real battles with real armies. It basically makes someone who isn't that good look better than they actually are, because the army is easy to play.

Byte wrote:Orks won! That's cool right?

Actually, that's the best takeaway from the tournament I would love to know the army composition!

gummyofallbears wrote:Eldar WILL break competitive with a list that include 12 squads of 3 scatterbikes and 2 wratihknights, among other things.


There were rules set in place about the Eldar, and in general. It is also worth noting the skill of the player and the list that they brought.

Well, in an awful lot of tournaments, you'll never see that, because Wraithknights are now LoW, and only max 1 LoW are permitted. I actually called this before the codex drop: Wraithknight changes overall weaken the codex in the tourney scene because of its status change to LoW (and the limits on LoWs). For that matter, ranged D, too, since those can't be taken in many tournaments. In the ITC circuit, you actually get a bonus/buff for not taking a LoW, if your opponent does.

However, putting that aside -- 36 scatterbikes and 2 wraithknights leave you with less than 300 points free, and that's assuming you have no upgrades. With any upgrades, you'll have not much space for much of anything else. I don't think that would be a tournament winning list. 40 bikes is a pain to find space for on a 6x4 anyhow, and leaves you with limited and predictable retreat options for JSJ. I think this would be a weaker list than serpent spam lists -- which also weren't really feared tournament lists.

My bigger question is wtf is going to happen with Imperial Knights. Is the faction no longer playable, as they are now all LoW?!

Talys: I am also curious about the IK quandary. I don't really have a good answer these days, other than I pretty much have become very selective as to what events I attend. There are enough events that (at least for me) are within driving distance that I can pick and choose.

"Eldar aren't that OP" bahahahahaha. Oh wait, you're serious? One tournament a month after the book is released proves little. Eldar are still and will probably always be top tier, especially in tournaments where not fluff or sportmanship points are awarded.

Called it when the Eldar drop, typical IoM bias. Everyone was freaking out about Eldar an didn't even stop to think about just how nasty the new Skitarri really are, especially when combined with the Flesh Tearers Formation and shoved into drop pods (Frontline Gaming proved that). Eldar are strong for sure but they are definitely not as OP as people were claiming or imagining them to be.

 gmaleron wrote:
Called it when the Eldar drop, typical IoM bias. Everyone was freaking out about Eldar an didn't even stop to think about just how nasty the new Skitarri really are, especially when combined with the Flesh Tearers Formation and shoved into drop pods (Frontline Gaming proved that). Eldar are strong for sure but they are definitely not as OP as people were claiming or imagining them to be.

Don't know what Frontline was doing but I saw and planned that list from go. Its nasty. I didn't realize it was a thing already.

Sample size of 1, no info on lists, pure Eldar with restrictions doesn't touch the full potential of Eldar, unrestricted, with allies, and the tourney was run a couple weeks after the codex dropped.

Threads like this are the same reason that our country is in the toilet: it's run by lawyers rather than engineers and scientists.

The winning Ork list is here;
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/05/06/tits-tournaments-storm-silence-itc-results-pics/

Very good list. Lots of tricks and options to win missions and kill what needs to be killed.

IMO this doesn't really prove anything. However, the burden of proof should have been on the people that screamed bloody murder anyways. Status Quo should not have to be proven it is change ie the "end of the competitive 40K" that should have needed some sort of proof. This entire situation is like a person accused someone of a crime and never bothered to prove there was a crime committed, instead the lynching committee got together and started measuring rope. Heck there is even a thread referencing typical lynching and witch hunt (burning people alive BTW!) references (pitch forks and torches) advocating a complete ban of CWE players and rules from games and events...this thread gained a large following and agreement before the codex was even released, just WOW.

I do find it lamentable that CWE opened the gates to a number of newbie stomper builds (scat pack spam, wraithknight spam). These builds struggle in 6-9 round game tournaments as they are unbalanced and there are popular lists which can kill these lists almost wholesale in 1-2 turns. However they will definitely rock an unprepared player and they usually lead to short unsatisfactory games. BTW this is also much of the reason that Tau are called OP whereas SM are usually not. SM win by outscoring you and don't usually table their opponent until the 5-7 turns if they manage to table their opponents at all. Some Tau builds will table unprepared players in the 2-3 turns and an unprepared player can see the majority of their models shot off the board turn 1. People don't like picking up their toys without playing with them first. I of course don't mind as I have an IG army...I pick up dozens of models every game having only just deployed them, playing IG is a form of self torture but also a love and passion.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Sample size of 1, no info on lists, pure Eldar with restrictions doesn't touch the full potential of Eldar, unrestricted, with allies, and the tourney was run a couple weeks after the codex dropped.

Threads like this are the same reason that our country is in the toilet: it's run by lawyers rather than engineers and scientists.

No, the country is run by politicians and money. Lawyers don't want to run the country, lawyers just want to get paid and parade around this corpse called "justice".

OT, this is another Eldar defense. Having just played new Eldar, they are beyond broken. AFAIK, Skitaari don't have insane psychic phases. I'd rather fight Skitaari then WraithKnights and D weapons. At least Skitaari can be doubled out pretty reliably.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Sample size of 1, no info on lists, pure Eldar with restrictions doesn't touch the full potential of Eldar, unrestricted, with allies, and the tourney was run a couple weeks after the codex dropped.

Threads like this are the same reason that our country is in the toilet: it's run by lawyers rather than engineers and scientists.

No, the country is run by politicians and money. Lawyers don't want to run the country, lawyers just want to get paid and parade around this corpse called "justice".

OT, this is another Eldar defense. Having just played new Eldar, they are beyond broken. AFAIK, Skitaari don't have insane psychic phases. I'd rather fight Skitaari then WraithKnights and D weapons. At least Skitaari can be doubled out pretty reliably.

Honestly I don't see Skitarii as being all that broken, sure they have lots of toys enabling them to be a threat but those toys tend to require points. thats what gets me about the eldar 'dex.

I mean compare the new Imperial Knight crusader to the wraithknight, the WK is only 295 points vs the crusaders 425... because?