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I had a game yesterday. I play Grey Knights with Eldar allies. My opponent plays Imperial Fists and Blood Angels. He brought a Fire Raptor and a Predator Executioner. And then, knowing I was going to bring some psykers, he brought a Cullexus Assassin.

When I laughed and told him that was cheesy, other people around said it was strange that I played Eldar and Grey Knights and called the other guy being cheesy.

For the record, I won that game because the Maelstrorm Objectives were in my favor. Apart from a single Dreadknight taking on Death Company, my army was massacred. Seriously, who thought it would be a good idea to have a rapid-firing plasma cannon that does not Gets Hot and Ignores Cover?

So, coming back to my question, what is it with people these day and hating anyway?

Eldar is one of the most OP codices published in a long time. GK are still getting hate from 5th, where they were one of the most OP codices published in a long time. Plus, a lot of people (like me) hate the fluff of the GK. It's always fun to watch GKs get tabled.

I mean....you are playing Grey Knights and Eldar together, for whatever reason....Forge that rock-hard narrative.

They saw a demon and decided to team up. Or something.

GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

Eldar because they simplu were made op for the sake of tjem being stronger and to sell the wraithknight like. A lot of people already didn't like the redundant scale of apocalypse LOW and D weapons leaking into the game, and the new eldar codex decided to force more of that to greater levels.
GK codex was very similar in its concept of being stronger for the sake of it, but their strengths were lessened as 6th and 7th editions came full circle. Regardless, people tend to hold grudges for quite some time.
On top of that, the fluff for the grey knights was very over the top and rather bland. Super Space Marines existing kinda made the poster boy space marines (that tend to attract a lot of new players) compleltly pointless in the fluff and on the table. It was just a way for ward to get his army of sues. Not to mention the really stupid ideas the introduced (Lets make SoB into purity seals! Im sure its the best option...)

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

I mean, if we're talking most GK lists, all GK have is cheese. Spamming Dreadknights and Draigostar, or allying in Gravcents. I'm not arguing they're the most powerful army, no. I'm just saying that all anyone ever uses is the same cookie-cutter "cheese", if you will.

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

No, it was deserved. Monkeys with lascannons? Really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

I mean, if we're talking most GK lists, all GK have is cheese. Spamming Dreadknights and Draigostar, or allying in Gravcents. I'm not arguing they're the most powerful army, no. I'm just saying that all anyone ever uses is the same cookie-cutter "cheese" per se.

They could use their other units and lose, I guess.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

I mean, if we're talking most GK lists, all GK have is cheese. Spamming Dreadknights and Draigostar, or allying in Gravcents. I'm not arguing they're the most powerful army, no. I'm just saying that all anyone ever uses is the same cookie-cutter "cheese" per se.

If its not overpowered its not cheese.

Sure, DKs are strong. But every codex can deal with them because they run right into the teeth of the guns that kill them.

And allies break everything. The Grav-cent-Draigo Star is cheesy. Draigo isn't cheesy if he's just teleporting GKTs. Its the one trick GKs can pull, and its not even particularly strong. At least compared to Eldar, Tau, or Vanilla marines.

Martel732 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

I mean, if we're talking most GK lists, all GK have is cheese. Spamming Dreadknights and Draigostar, or allying in Gravcents. I'm not arguing they're the most powerful army, no. I'm just saying that all anyone ever uses is the same cookie-cutter "cheese" per se.

They could use their other units and lose, I guess.

This is true. But I've rarely seen a Grey Knight player actually use anything other than what I listed.

Imperial bias is a big part of it from my experience, a lot of players that play Marines and Knights in particular seem to feel that their shenanigans are OK but other books (xenos in particular) don't deserve any. Let them complain and you play the armies you enjoy playing.

I mean, BA and DA don't even HAVE "go to" units. We don't get to choose between boring and losing. We just get to lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Imperial bias is a big part of it from my experience, a lot of players that play Marines and Knights in particular seem to feel that their shenanigans are OK but other books (xenos in particular) don't deserve any. Let them complain and you play the armies you enjoy playing.

I seem to have missed all the shenanigans in the BA book.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

I mean, if we're talking most GK lists, all GK have is cheese. Spamming Dreadknights and Draigostar, or allying in Gravcents. I'm not arguing they're the most powerful army, no. I'm just saying that all anyone ever uses is the same cookie-cutter "cheese" per se.

If its not overpowered its not cheese.

Sure, DKs are strong. But every codex can deal with them because they run right into the teeth of the guns that kill them.

And allies break everything. The Grav-cent-Draigo Star is cheesy. Draigo isn't cheesy if he's just teleporting GKTs. Its the one trick GKs can pull, and its not even particularly strong. At least compared to Eldar, Tau, or Vanilla marines.

Well, I suppose we have different views on what's cheesy. If I look at someone and they spam 1-2 units simply because, especially if it's all anyone ever uses, I consider it cheesy. However, Dreadknights are rather stupid, IMO. Good guns, and S10 Force at WS5 with mastercrafted at intiative, and being an MC? All for what, under 200 points?

And anything that has potential to have a 2++ save is stupid, and shouldn't exist in the game. (I'm looking at you, Daemons) So yeah, Draigo with invisibility, a 2++ save, and FNP. Might as well field a can of spray cheese.

But DK are mortal. Very, very mortal in a game where even lowly BA can bring a lot of grav guns and plasma.

Martel732 wrote:
But DK are mortal. Very, very mortal in a game where even lowly BA can bring a lot of grav guns and plasma.

I admit, I am rather biased. Necrons lack spammable AP2, hence it being an MC is a slap in the face. And my Tyranids would only send Gaunts at it, as it would murder any of my MCs, which are much more expensive.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But DK are mortal. Very, very mortal in a game where even lowly BA can bring a lot of grav guns and plasma.

I admit, I am rather biased. Necrons lack spammable AP2, hence it being an MC is a slap in the face. And my Tyranids would only send Gaunts at it, as it would murder any of my MCs, which are much more expensive.

Tarpit it with Wraiths and call it a day. Masscre everything else with your invincible doods. As for Tyranids, anything with rending that comes in large numbers is probably the ticket. Thing zerglings vs THOR. THOR IS HERE.

Martel732 wrote:
I mean, BA and DA don't even HAVE "go to" units. We don't get to choose between boring and losing. We just get to lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Imperial bias is a big part of it from my experience, a lot of players that play Marines and Knights in particular seem to feel that their shenanigans are OK but other books (xenos in particular) don't deserve any. Let them complain and you play the armies you enjoy playing.

I seem to have missed all the shenanigans in the BA book.

Flesh Tearers Formation with Skitarri in Drop Pods, its insanely cheesy

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But DK are mortal. Very, very mortal in a game where even lowly BA can bring a lot of grav guns and plasma.

I admit, I am rather biased. Necrons lack spammable AP2, hence it being an MC is a slap in the face. And my Tyranids would only send Gaunts at it, as it would murder any of my MCs, which are much more expensive.

Tarpit it with Wraiths and call it a day. Masscre everything else with your invincible doods. As for Tyranids, anything with rending that comes in large numbers is probably the ticket. Thing zerglings vs THOR. THOR IS HERE.

Well I don't always take Wraiths. Plus, a full squad of Wraiths to tarpit a Dreadknight is like, 258 points with whip coils, which is much more expensive than a Dreadknight.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

I mean, if we're talking most GK lists, all GK have is cheese. Spamming Dreadknights and Draigostar, or allying in Gravcents. I'm not arguing they're the most powerful army, no. I'm just saying that all anyone ever uses is the same cookie-cutter "cheese" per se.

If its not overpowered its not cheese.

Sure, DKs are strong. But every codex can deal with them because they run right into the teeth of the guns that kill them.

And allies break everything. The Grav-cent-Draigo Star is cheesy. Draigo isn't cheesy if he's just teleporting GKTs. Its the one trick GKs can pull, and its not even particularly strong. At least compared to Eldar, Tau, or Vanilla marines.

Well, I suppose we have different views on what's cheesy. If I look at someone and they spam 1-2 units simply because, especially if it's all anyone ever uses, I consider it cheesy. However, Dreadknights are rather stupid, IMO. Good guns, and S10 Force at WS5 with mastercrafted at intiative, and being an MC? All for what, under 200 points?

And anything that has potential to have a 2++ save is stupid, and shouldn't exist in the game. (I'm looking at you, Daemons) So yeah, Draigo with invisibility, a 2++ save, and FNP. Might as well field a can of spray cheese.

Ok, you've just shown some major lack of knowledge about the DK.

1) It has to pay to get a force weapon. Stock it just has power fists.

2) With 2 guns, Force Sword, and Teleporter pack, its clocking in at 235 points minimum.

3) To get that 2++ and invisibility and FnP you are talking a bajillion points, and luck on the psychic tables. You're taking Draigo and 3 librarians. One Librarian rolls Sanctic and hopes he rolls Sanctuary. One librarian rolls telepathy and hopes he rolls invisibility. And the last librarian rolls Divination and hopes he rolls Forewarning. And you're taking a Paladin squad, probably rolling with a minimum of 5 and the Apothecary. Thats well over 1500 points, probably closer to 2000 because you are taking upgrades. and on top of that you'll need to have 2 units of Terminators or Strike squads because you're needing double FoC to field this many HQs.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Ok, you've just shown some major lack of knowledge about the DK.

1) It has to pay to get a force weapon. Stock it just has power fists.

2) With 2 guns, Force Sword, and Teleporter pack, its clocking in at 235 points minimum.

3) To get that 2++ and invisibility and FnP you are talking a bajillion points, and luck on the psychic tables. You're taking Draigo and 3 librarians. One Librarian rolls Sanctic and hopes he rolls Sanctuary. One librarian rolls telepathy and hopes he rolls invisibility. And the last librarian rolls Divination and hopes he rolls Forewarning. And you're taking a Paladin squad, probably rolling with a minimum of 5 and the Apothecary. Thats well over 1500 points, probably closer to 2000 because you are taking upgrades.

I know is has to pay for it's upgrades, which, why wouldn't you? And that is a bit more expensive than I remembered, so that's a little better. And I'm not saying it would be effective. I'm just saying that's what I've heard of people doing, and it's a bit ridiculous.

The way I look at it, regardless of if Grey Knights are winning every game, the only "good" things they have are considered cheesy, and hence they're seen as a cheese army.

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

Unless you played tyranids and watched a 160 point or so model (Dreadknight with sword) slaughter 3 carnifi (each costing more and with worse stats) in one round. Or watching them use some cheesy grenade over and over again that completely fubared a unit on anything but a 1. I still hate them, and the change from 6th ed psychic rules to 7th, making shadow of the warp nearly useless, hasn't changed that.

Rumbleguts wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are no longer cheesy. But Eldar definitely are.

GKs just get hate from 5th edition, far more than was ever deserved.

Unless you played tyranids and watched a 160 point or so model (Dreadknight with sword) slaughter 3 carnifi (each costing more and with worse stats) in one round. Or watching them use some cheesy grenade over and over again that completely fubared a unit on anything but a 1. I still hate them, and the change from 6th ed psychic rules to 7th, making shadow of the warp nearly useless, hasn't changed that.

I can agree to that, sir. As a fellow Nid player, they whole matchup against Grey Knights, with SitW being terrible, it doesn't seem fluffy at all.

However, bring a ton of Stranglethorn cannons and Barbed Stranglers, and watch them make Pinning on checks at LD7 at best. =P

 Flame-Rage wrote:

On top of that, the fluff for the grey knights was very over the top and rather bland. Super Space Marines existing kinda made the poster boy space marines (that tend to attract a lot of new players) compleltly pointless in the fluff and on the table. It was just a way for ward to get his army of sues. Not to mention the really stupid ideas the introduced (Lets make SoB into purity seals! Im sure its the best option...)

I get the fluff hate for Ward here. But, not the rest GK were always super SM, that is way they were allies only when they first came out. As for the fact they are a full army now that on GW, the writer doesn't get to decide that.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I mean, BA and DA don't even HAVE "go to" units. We don't get to choose between boring and losing. We just get to lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Imperial bias is a big part of it from my experience, a lot of players that play Marines and Knights in particular seem to feel that their shenanigans are OK but other books (xenos in particular) don't deserve any. Let them complain and you play the armies you enjoy playing.

I seem to have missed all the shenanigans in the BA book.

Flesh Tearers Formation with Skitarri in Drop Pods, its insanely cheesy

I can't seem to find the Skitarri in the BA codex. And we all know SM are getting drop pod in FA as well. The BA are good taxis for units that actually are good. That actually makes the BA more pathetic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But DK are mortal. Very, very mortal in a game where even lowly BA can bring a lot of grav guns and plasma.

I admit, I am rather biased. Necrons lack spammable AP2, hence it being an MC is a slap in the face. And my Tyranids would only send Gaunts at it, as it would murder any of my MCs, which are much more expensive.

Tarpit it with Wraiths and call it a day. Masscre everything else with your invincible doods. As for Tyranids, anything with rending that comes in large numbers is probably the ticket. Thing zerglings vs THOR. THOR IS HERE.

Well I don't always take Wraiths. Plus, a full squad of Wraiths to tarpit a Dreadknight is like, 258 points with whip coils, which is much more expensive than a Dreadknight.

But they'll kill it, too. Rending, yo.

Martel732 wrote:

But they'll kill it, too. Rending, yo.

You have more faith in Rending than I do. Plus, how many rounds would that take?

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But they'll kill it, too. Rending, yo.

You have more faith in Rending than I do. Plus, how many rounds would that take?

At worst, an average of 8. Only 6-7 with the 5++ in play.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But they'll kill it, too. Rending, yo.

You have more faith in Rending than I do. Plus, how many rounds would that take?

At worst, an average of 8. Only 6-7 with the 5++ in play.

Rounds of combat. That's way too long to be effective.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But they'll kill it, too. Rending, yo.

You have more faith in Rending than I do. Plus, how many rounds would that take?

At worst, an average of 8. Only 6-7 with the 5++ in play.

Rounds of combat. That's way too long to be effective.

No, no. I was computing WOUNDS not rounds. You only need 8 rends to kill a buffed DK on average. Plus, since they can't get FNP, there's a real chance you can sneak a regular wound through as well. I don't think they will last long. 3++ is a hard counter to the DK.

Martel732 wrote:
No, no. I was computing WOUNDS not rounds. You only need 8 rends to kill a buffed DK on average. Plus, since they can't get FNP, there's a real chance you can sneak a regular wound through as well. I don't think they will last long. 3++ is a hard counter to the DK.

Oh, good golly. That's better than. Still, I don't like my chances. Plus, I'll have another DK running around while that one's tied up.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, no. I was computing WOUNDS not rounds. You only need 8 rends to kill a buffed DK on average. Plus, since they can't get FNP, there's a real chance you can sneak a regular wound through as well. I don't think they will last long. 3++ is a hard counter to the DK.

Oh, good golly. That's better than. Still, I don't like my chances. Plus, I'll have another DK running around while that one's tied up.

You did bring more than one unit of Wraiths, right? I'd have three if I ran Necrons. They are an assault unit that actually gets to assault and not just die like slime.