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I decided that a neat format idea that has some possibilities to it could be done by making a set of criteria that every list has to meet to be "legal."

Specifically, each category can be covered by any unit that meets the criteria, but that unit can NOT be used to fill any other category. Once all categories are filled, you are free to finish the army up to the point value in whatever way you see fit. (Still following battle forged restrictions.)
Independent characters do not fill a category by themselves, but can be counted as part of a squad that they will start the game in to fill it. Dedicated transports are treated as separate units, and can thus fill a category themselves.

Categories:


Something tough: the unit is AV 13, or has 4 or more hull points, or is t6 or higher with 4 wounds, or t7 or higher with 3wounds, or has at least 5 wounds worth of 2+ armor.

Something in the sky: the unit must be a flyer/fmc, or has an attack with the skyfire rule (a fortification gun counts,) or has another offensive ability that can affect flyers without snap-shooting. (e.g. Swooping hawks.)

Something in the back: a model in the unit has 36" or longer range when shooting, and is not a flyer.

Something choppy: the unit has at least one melee only ability, or a special melee weapon in the squad.

Something quick: the entire unit can move at least 9" in the movement phase, and cannot swoop or zoom.

Something for later: the unit will be held in reserve until at least turn 2.

Something normal: the unit is a troop choice that cannot move more than 6" in the movement phase.

Something strong: the unit has at least one s8 melee attack or shot.

Something numerous: the unit is at least 10 models and is at maximum squad size.


If you have the time and expertise, please try to make 1850 lists as decent as you can while meeting these categories, so I can see if any armies have a problem meeting all of them in that point value, or if there are still crazy spammy lists available. Remember that one unit can never fill more than a single category.

Also an already known issue is that this rules out knights as a standalone army. I'm not totally convinced I see that as an issue though. If that is the only casualty here, I'd take that as a win for the design.

So please, make with any lists to test it or helpful comments. You can leave off comments about the complication level of the format, as I was thinking about it as an alternative to the Australian community comp, which is 20 pages of comp rules!

I'm finding this difficult to do with Daemons - its very constraining, as many of the options can only be filled by a very limited set of units. Maybe thats what you're intending. Do you need to fulfill ALL of them, or just as many as you can?

This format forces Daemon players to use a combination of 4 soulgrinders+daemon princes/Greater Daemons:
Something Tough: Greater Daemons or Soulgrinders
Something in the Sky: Bloodthirster, Fateweaver, Lord of Change, Daemon Princes
Something in the back: Soul Grinders or Skull Cannons
Something Strong: Greater Daemon, Daemon Prince or Soulgrinder
Something numerous: Forces me to use either 20 models or 9+IC as there are no 10 size full squads, unlike many other armies.




Lets try a list....
Something tough: Lord of Change ML3, Exalted Reward, Lesser Reward - (295)

Something in the sky: Fateweaver (300)

Something in the back: Soulgrinder, Slaanesh, Torrent (170)

Something choppy: 7 Screamers (175)

Something quick: 5 Furies (35)

Something for later: 11 Horrors, Instrument (109)

Something normal: 11 Horrors (99)

Something strong: Soulgrinder, Slaanesh, Torrent (170)

Something numerous: 8 Screamers (200) + Tzeentch Herald, Disc, ML3, Exalted Reward (150), Tzeentch Herald, Disc, Exalted Locus ML3 (145)


Not too bad actually. I'd prefer not to take the Soulgrinders/LOC, but they're not actually bad units at all. This gets to a respectable 17 Warp Charges so I can summon whatever else I need. A little bit of playing with squad sizes & rewards is probably required but I think it would go alright. As long as I bought 2 soulgrinders.

I've seen ideas like this bandied around before. Usually the main issue is like as Trasvi said, it affects some armies a lot more than others.

I also do actually resent being force to bring a flier, I hate fliers.

Yeah.. you'll find that many armies can incidentally fill many roles, and/or some armies that struggle to find a decent model to take in particular slots.


I do like this idea a lot better than some of the other formats being bandied around (highlander) but its not without a few issues.
If you want to test it out, I'd just take some current tournament armies and see how well they fit your rules / how few changes would be needed to satisfy them. I think the tournament eldar lists being talked about tick most of the boxes with little worry.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I've seen ideas like this bandied around before. Usually the main issue is like as Trasvi said, it affects some armies a lot more than others.

I also do actually resent being force to bring a flier, I hate fliers.

Yeah I think I'll go ahead and edit that bit to just allow a skyfire or otherwise anti-air unit to qualify.


@travsi

Can you tell me how may points it takes you to meet the req's and be battle forged at bare minimum?
So far I'm seeing some pretty consistent numbers on that front.

Also I'll take the fact that I wasn't immediately flamed out of the thread as a good sign.

What exactly is the point of these restrictions? Most of them don't really have any significant effect on the game (for example, paying for a single token melee weapon on one squad in your army is never going to matter) so you're just adding more hoops to jump through before you can play your army. Similarly, how many armies really have no squads with STR 8+ weapons of any kind? That kind of always-met requirement is just wasted time.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Something tough: the unit is AV 13, or has 4 or more hull points, or is t6 or higher with 4 wounds, or t7 or higher with 3wounds, or has at least 5 wounds worth of 2+ armor.

Elysian drop troops literally can not meet this requirement. The army list has no AV 13 vehicles or models with more than T3 or a 2+ save.

Something choppy: the unit has at least one melee only ability, or a special melee weapon in the squad.

Tau can't do this, at least by the intent of the rule. The only melee weapons in the codex are on ethereals, and they'll never be used in melee. So what this really means for a Tau army is "you must take a shooting buff that sits in the back all game but technically has a sword".

(Technically I suppose Farsight has a sword, but you shouldn't make a specific unique character mandatory.)

You can leave off comments about the complication level of the format, as I was thinking about it as an alternative to the Australian community comp, which is 20 pages of comp rules!

But that intent doesn't make your complexity immune to criticism. Community comp is a really stupid system, and the solution is to throw it out entirely. Then any proposed comp system needs to be evaluated on its own merits, without any reference to something that should never have existed.

niv-mizzet wrote:
@travsi

Can you tell me how may points it takes you to meet the req's and be battle forged at bare minimum?
So far I'm seeing some pretty consistent numbers on that front.

Also I'll take the fact that I wasn't immediately flamed out of the thread as a good sign.

At an absolute minimum, taking the cheapest possible units I can....


Something tough: Soulgrinder, Khorne (135)

Something in the sky: Daemon Prince, Khorne, Wings (200) (if you change this to only skyfire required, take a Vengeance Weapon Battery for 75 and a Herald of Nurgle for 45)

Something in the back: Skull Cannon (125)

Something choppy: Does this mean they must have an ability/weapon, or simply that they lack ranged attacks? Does smash count? 3 Screamers (75)

Something quick: 5 Furies (35)

Something for later: 3 Nurglings (45)

Something normal: 3 Nurglings (45)

Something strong: Soulgrinder, Khorne, (135)

Something numerous: 20 Furies (125)

Total: 920. 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 3 FA, 3 HS

(Note: This is an absurdly terrible army and would get beaten up by 500pts of anything with any thought put in to it)

@ peregrine. If you can't speak without coming across as condescending and/or rude, I won't be responding to you. Good day.

@travsi
Thanks for doing that bit of testing. My main intent is that people who already play something tac-ish won't be affected very much, while some edge lists and spam lists will be forced to take a few units that don't work with the rest of their army.

Also so far, my tau, nid, and de buddies have all managed to fill all the categories and get battle forged with about 6-800 points. Similar to yours, the actual list at that point value is terrible, but once they added on to bring it to 1850, they said they found it quite okay.

I'm more concerned that for some armies the restrictions are unnecessarily onerous, while for others they are almost completely meaningless. I managed to get an alright Daemons army only because Soul Grinders are decent: but as they (or something more expensive) were my only choices to fill 3 of the slots, working around them is a hassle.
For other armies which are a bit more diverse in their choices, working around that would be pretty easy:

Lets look at Zagman's Tau list - I'm building a Tau list quite similar to this, and its quite powerful for Tau at 1850:

1850 Farsight Enclave with Allied Tau

Primary Combined Arms Detachment: Farsight Enclaves
HQ
164 Commander(?) +2xMissile Pod(?) +Velocity Tracker(?) +Target Lock(?) +2xMarkerDrone(?)

Troops
246 Crisis Team
82 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +2xMissile Pod(?) +Target Lock(?) +2xMarkerDrone(?)
82 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +2xMissile Pod(?) +Target Lock(?) +2xMarkerDrone(?)
82 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +2xMissile Pod(?) +Target Lock(?) +2xMarkerDrone(?)

177 Crisis Team
67 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +2xBurst Cannon(?) +2xGunDrone(?)
67 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +2xBurst Cannon(?) +2xGunDrone(?)
43 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +2xBurst Cannon(?)

106 Crisis Team
53 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +2xFusion Blaster(?)
53 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +2xFusion Blaster(?)

106 Crisis Team
53 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +Fusion Blaster(?) +Fusion Blaster(?)
53 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +Fusion Blaster(?) +Fusion Blaster(?)

43 Crisis Team
43 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +Twinlinked Missile Pod(?)

43 Crisis Team
43 Suit(?) +Bonding Knife(?) +Twinlinked Missile Pod(?)

Elite
265 Riptide(?) +Heavy Burst Cannon +Twinlinked Fusion Blaster +Velocity Tracker(?) +Stimulant Injector(?) +Earth Caste Pilot Array(?)
235 Riptide(?) +Heavy Burst Cannon +Twinlinked Fusion Blaster +Velocity Tracker(?) +Stimulant Injector(?)
190 Riptide(?) +Ion Accelerator(?) +Twinlinked Fusion Blaster +Early Warning Override(?)

Primary Detachment Total 1575

Allied Detachment: Tau Empire
HQ
220 Allied Commander(?) +Drone Controller(?) +Vectored Retro Thrusters(?) +Stimulant Injector(?) +Shield Generator(?) +Iridium Battlesuit(?) +Onager Guantlet(?) +Puretide Engram Neurochip(?) +Command and Control Node(?) +Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite(?) +Neuroweb System Jammer(?)

Troops
54 Allied Fire Warrior Team x6

Allied Tau Empire Detachment Total 274pts
Army Total: 1849/1850

In this army we have:
Something tough: Riptide
Something in the sky: Riptide w/VT
Something in the back: Missile Crisis on its own
Something choppy: Riptide (smash)
Something quick: ??
Something for later: Fusion Crisis
Something normal: Fire Warriors
Something strong: Fusion Crisis
Something numerous: Crisis w/ Marker Drones + Commander w/ Marker Drones

I'm assuming a vehicle can count as a quick unit? In that case this army drops one Crisis Suit and takes a Piranha; if not, drop a few drones and take a minimum squad of Vespids.
Done. And this is an army that placed 5th at NOVA

Vanilla marines can make a number of viable lists with this format. Not that it’s surprising, as the army is quintessentially TAC. My first thought was a drop pod list

Something tough: Ironclad dread
Something in the sky: Stormtalon
Something in the back: Tac squad w/HB (or other heavy weapon)
Something choppy: Another Ironclad. (if we can’t take the same type of unit for multiple categories, an assault squad with a power weapon on the sarge)
Something quick:Land speeder (either guns, or a LSS for objective grabbing)
Something for later: Any second wave drop pod
Something normal: Tac squad
Something strong: HQ w/fist. or more dreads
Something numerous: Tac squad, or 10 man sternguard

Deliberately trying to break this with wraithkinght spam I made a list that can have 4 wraithknights in it.

Windrider host
Farseer on jetbike - 115
Warlock on jetbike with spear - 55
3 Jetbikes - 51
3 Jetbikes - 51
3 Jetbikes - 51
Vyper - 40

Aspect host
5 Dire Avengers - 75
10 Dire Avengers - 140
5 Swooping hawks - 90

4 x Wraith constructs
Wraithknight - 295
Wraithknight - 295
Wraithknight - 295
Wraithknight - 295

Total 1848pts

Something tough: Wraithknight #1
Something in the sky: Swooping hawks
Something in the back: Wraithknight #2
Something choppy: Warlock
Something quick: Wraithknight #3
Something for later: Whatever other squad that I feel like putting in reserve
Something normal: 5 man avenger squad
Something strong: Wraithknight #4
Something numerous: 10 man avenger squad

If the warlock isn't choppy enough stick the quick knight into the choppy slot with a sword and any of the windrider host can fill the quick slot.

I feel reasonably happy with what I've seen so far and what I've made personally.

It doesn't cut out much, but that's sort of the intent. It only stops the edgiest of edge lists by draining some precious points away from lists that want to make massive deathstars, almost all flyers, or all armor values etc. most lists should (and do) seem mostly unaffected. I definitely did not want any army to be heavily restricted to where it feels like you aren't the one building the army anymore.

It does seem like daemons are a little tight, but I think they are slowly being changed from codex daemons to the 4 daemonkin codices, which are CSM+daemon sandwiches. With the CSM in the same book, I'd bet they'd feel a lot less restricted.

@trav
Yeah vehicles can count for quick, and smash can be choppy.

@rofl
Well that's better than fitting 5! I'm betting that if a tourney ever used this system, they'd also still have the ever-present superheavy LoW limit.

niv-mizzet wrote:
@ peregrine. If you can't speak without coming across as condescending and/or rude, I won't be responding to you. Good day.

UR NOT NICE!!!!!!!

I guess this just demonstrates that you're not honestly interested in improving your system, you just want people to tell you how great it is.

To be honest that was pretty tame by Peregrine's standards, probably the best your going to get.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I feel reasonably happy with what I've seen so far and what I've made personally.

It doesn't cut out much, but that's sort of the intent. It only stops the edgiest of edge lists by draining some precious points away from lists that want to make massive deathstars, almost all flyers, or all armor values etc. most lists should (and do) seem mostly unaffected. I definitely did not want any army to be heavily restricted to where it feels like you aren't the one building the army anymore.

It does seem like daemons are a little tight, but I think they are slowly being changed from codex daemons to the 4 daemonkin codices, which are CSM+daemon sandwiches. With the CSM in the same book, I'd bet they'd feel a lot less restricted.

If you're OK with a bunch of Top 16 lists at major tourneys passing your 'comp' system, what is the point of it?
Serpent Spam from last edition eldar would pass; scatterbike/wraithknight spam from this edition would pass. The only real struggle is if you have a 500pt+ deathstar - which already is a bad investment for a lot of tourneys anyway as MSU are on the upswing.

It seems like the system only adversely affects armies which had it bad to start with. Some armies have really good models which can fulfill half the boxes in there, and they can field almost an identical army to before without any stress. Knights/Wraithknights/Riptides cross off Tough / In the Back / Strong / Choppy / Later / Quick / Skyfire without any worries, you're going to have 2+ of them no matter what, and jetbikes/waveserpents/crisis suits fill the other spots out handily. Other armies who are already having a tough time because they don't have good units which fill multiple of those abilities just get forced to diversify further.