Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No your rent example is still equals, there is just a ratio involed that is not stated(or ill-defined)

The rent you can afford is equal to your salary in a ratio(generally 5:2). I bring home 1700+ per month, i can afford a 602 per month rent and could afford up to 680.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The rent you can afford is equal to your salary in a ratio(generally 5:2). I.

Which is not the same as saying that the rent is equal to my salary. And that's the claim being made about the ML.

Nor do you have any way of determining that ratio from the original statement. For that, you have to look for further context. And in this case, the further context we are given is that psyker can continue to cast until he runs out of warp charges.

 Galef wrote:
It is hard to comprehend how a set number has been implied, yet no one can figure out what that is. -

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, to my mind the issue is actually just that the paragraph in question is a straight copy and paste from 6th edition, but lacks the part that came afterwards that added the actual limit. So I don't think it's a matter of having to figure out that number... I honestly don't think that number is supposed to apply in this edition. The current psychic rules are far more a throwback to 2nd edition, where psykers could just continue to cast until they ran out of either powers to cast or Force cards to cast them with. All that Mastery Level really did was determine how many powers you could choose.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, to my mind the issue is actually just that the paragraph in question is a straight copy and paste from 6th edition, but lacks the part that came afterwards that added the actual limit. So I don't think it's a matter of having to figure out that number... I honestly don't think that number is supposed to apply in this edition. The current psychic rules are far more a throwback to 2nd edition, where psykers could just continue to cast until they ran out of either powers to cast or Force cards to cast them with. All that Mastery Level really did was determine how many powers you could choose.

This. The Psychic phase rules have issues through out them without people making up further rules to cause more problems. When I first read that first paragraph I fully expected it to then state a 1 to 1 limit but it didn't. But the time you read all the rules it becomes clear that the paragraph in question is purely contextual and most likely copy and pasted from 6th. Much like the witchfires must roll to hit vs Psychic Shriek, the rules are complex enough they do not expect you to make up more...

If anything, GW definitely means you can cast as many powers as you want RAI. Otherwise things like the DA conclave would be fething terrible.

The conclave allows a single psyker to know up to 17 powers IIRC, why would Ezekiel be limited to casting 3 of those 17 powers? Nowhere in the conclave rules does it say anything about being able to cast as many powers as you want, so if we go off mastery level equals powers cast.....

That's not really a valid argument, Ezekiel will just about never have enough warp charges to cast all 17 powers anyways, let alone valid/viable targets.

A psyker can know every power in the game, doesn't mean he can cast them all in the same turn(more due to charges than anything else)

Full disclosure: I do play it as capable of casting all powers known. And each unit selection psyker as individuals even when grouped together.

With that many librarians I'd have 17 warp charges if I roll a 6. Even throwing 3 at a power (although 2 is semi-reliable since they go off on a 3+) would mean 5 powers. Even risking 4 charges to get a cast off would mean he should cast 4. I often just throw 2, and that's 8 powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Throw in that I can have an additional 2 librarians in my CAD, and we're up to 21 warp charges.

Does 'use each turn' not mean 'cast each turn? It definitely doesn't mean 'know each turn'.

"How many powers can my L1 psyker cast each turn?"
"Says it depends on your Mastery Level."
"Hmm, my Mastery Level is 1, so I guess I can cast all three..."

O.o

But your mastery level give you the amount of spells you know, a baseline for warp charge dice, and you aren't allowed to cast the same spell twice. Every one of those items are also based directly on your mastery level, which one of them should I use as the limiting factor?

Especially when later on it says I can cast as many spell as I want, so long as I have warp charge dice.

If you have a higher mastery level, you'll be generating more warp charges and will therefore be able to cast more powers.

In that regard, the number of powers you can cast each turn absolutely depends on your mastery level. It also depends on how well you roll when harnessing warp charges and which powers you choose to use (using high warp charge powers means you can cast fewer overall).

Ignoring the "it's how things were done in the past" associated with a prior and obsolete edition of the rules, there is nothing currently telling us to set the max number of powers equal to the mastery level.

I'm with Insaniak. I think this was a bad copy and paste job. Games Workshop doesn't do a good job of copy editing their publications.

 kingbobbito wrote:
With that many librarians I'd have 17 warp charges if I roll a 6. Even throwing 3 at a power (although 2 is semi-reliable since they go off on a 3+) would mean 5 powers. Even risking 4 charges to get a cast off would mean he should cast 4. I often just throw 2, and that's 8 powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Throw in that I can have an additional 2 librarians in my CAD, and we're up to 21 warp charges.

You do realize 8 an 17 are different numbers?

On a less joking point(yes that wss a joke), how does the conclave let Ezekiel know 17 powers? From your rolling a 6 i get that there are 11 mastery levels. Does Ezekiel become a ml11 psyker? And then where do the other powers come from?

Kriswall touched on the important point here. The dependance its stating does exist, a mastery level 1 psyker could only feasibly cast a maximum of 4 powers (domina liber daemonica grey knight librarian with psychic focus) yet if that same librarian's mastery level is increased, he has the ability to cast more. Thus, the number of powers a psyker can cast certainly does depend on his mastery level, its just not equal. Furthermore seeing as how you generate more warp charge as a result of being a more powerful psyker, the dependance is yet again existent and fairly clear.. If it didnt state that the powers able to cast depend on mastery level, the things that already naturally cause mastery level to determine powers able to cast would already be in place, naturally creating a dependency on mastery level to see how many powers can be cast.

Edit: it also might be helpful to remember that the rulebook is designed to familiarize a first time player with the game, and some sentences are probably there to loosely give players an idea of the way things work before they get more technical. A new player wouldnt know that mastery level has anything to do with number of powers able to be cast or generated unless he read further into the psychic rules and inferred it from the natural dependencies that exist

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
On a less joking point(yes that wss a joke), how does the conclave let Ezekiel know 17 powers? From your rolling a 6 i get that there are 11 mastery levels. Does Ezekiel become a ml11 psyker? And then where do the other powers come from?

The conclave is worded as such:

At the start of the Psychic phase, you can nominate one model from this Formation. If you do this, the nominated model has access to any psychic powers known by other models from this Formation within 12" until the end of the phase

So if I have 4 level 2 librarians (with 3 powers apiece, including primaris, if they pick one discipline and all pick different ones) and ezekiel (knowing 4), plus force, that comes out to 17 powers. It says nothing about changing mastery levels, only that he would know all the powers. The warp charges come from 4 level 2 and a level 3, so 11 warp charges before I roll. Why would they allow a model to know 17 powers and have a minimum of 12 warp charges that he can harness on a 3+ if they didn't want him to cast more than 3? For that matter, one of the ML 2 librarians can know all of the 17 powers, it doesn't have to be Ezekiel. Can a guy with 17 powers and 17 warp charges on cast two powers?

Keep in mind too that:

other models from this Formation within 12" of the nominated model cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase

Meaning that it'd only be possible to cast 3 powers total using 5 psykers if we limit it to 1 power cast per mastery level. Ezekiel doesn't become Mastery level 17 despite knowing 17 powers.

The way I have read it is that since "the number of...blah, blah" sentence is one of the very first "rules" sentences that comes in the Psychic Phase section, it logically sets the precedence that ML is key in determining powers. Since we should know nothing about the psychic phase prior to this sentence, most people would logically read it as "The number of powers a psyker can use depends on ML" i.e. ML3 = 3 powers can be used.

The confusion lies in when you read on, seeing the line about being able to cast as many powers as you have WC. If it was truly meant to override the # available to use, then why bother introducing the Psychic rules with the 'depends on' sentence? Both sections seem to contradict each other, classic GW.

For those arguing that since ML determines how many spells you know, which then equals how many powers you can cast, please see these 2 examples:

1) Eldar Farseer, ML3, that decided to take all Primaris powers (Prescience, Guide & Shriek). Clearly this Psyker only can cast 3 powers. He is ML3, and could not get psy-focus, thus only knows 3 powers. Easy, no dispute here, he can only ever use 3 powers

2) ML3 Librarian who rolls all on Divination. This psyker knows 5 powers, 3 from DIv + 1 Primaris, and has a Force weapon. Gaining the Primaris power by sticking with a single Discipline has NOTHING to do with your ML. Niether does having Force from a Force weapon.

So I put it to the group: If # of powers the Librarian can use depends on his ML, then the # is 3, because Force and Psychic focus were not gained by ML


---------------Just a reminder, I am not trying to be adversarial, I am just explaining my reasoning for HIWPI--------


-

Why create the restriction of the mastery level and powers able to cast being equal when the word equal is never used and the dependancy clearly exists already? Maybe that sentence is sinply intended to show players what a mastery level is, and what it does? Maybe its simply meant to explain that there is an advantage for a psyker to have more than one mastery level? Maybe all it's saying is "higher level psykers are more powerful because they have the ability to cast more spells through more power choices as well as higher individual warp charge." this is logically the same, if only more detailed, than the sentence "the amount of powers a psyker can cast depends on his mastery level." if i was explaining the game to a new player, regarding the psychic phase, that paragraph is a very logical start.

In my opinion there is zero reason to inject the dependence (powers=mastery level) because the dependance upon mastery level is inherent in the psychic phase mechanics. Dependent upon does not mean equal to. In 99 percent of situations involving the words "depends upon" the relationship is nowhere near equal. The only, literally only reason anyone would think that its attempting to express an equal dependence is because they played sixth edition where the dependence was equal.

If someone jumped into 40k at the advent of 7th, i seriously doubt they would come to the conclusion after reading the whole rulebook that powers cast=mastery level because there are no words stating that. Like i said earlier, the dependence is already there.

Galef - it is probably true yo say at a school the amount of pocket money a child gets is dependent on his father's salary. This in no way implies that there is a direct equivalence or that Salary is the only factor. So it is not surprising some lvl3 psykers will be able to manifest more powers than others. Lets return to your example the Farseer say is part of a Seer Council and rolls 6 dice for WC it is trivial for him to attempt all 3 powers. Lets assume the Libby rolls cleansing flame and Vortex in his powers and is say the only psyker on the field then rolls a 1 for WC dice. He will struggle to attempt to even manifest 2 powers. So we see the guy we thought could cast more in a turn in this scenario can actually cast less.

So unless you let me throw dice after I've used my power pool for psykers who have yet to attempt to cast powers to their ML number you cannot claim the ratio is 1:1. There is a dependency but no one actually plays that as equal to, some might say limited to which is an even further stretch.

Your personal HYWPI not only goes against RaW but seems counter to most likely RaI. The Ezekiel example above being one where it appears to strongly imply he can cast many more than 3 powers in a turn (or the formation is next to useless and just a massive drawback). But look at the Maleceptor he's ML2 yet has a power that tells us you can cast it 3 times, yet by your interpretation the 3rd attempt is useless as he runs out of attempts after 2...

I just cant get past this sentence: "The number of powers a psyker can use each turn DEPENDS on his ML" I don't think that I ever will. I would like to ignore it, since later the BRB says you can keep casting as long as you have WC, but I just cant reconcile both sections.

If this was the case then you could cast almost twice as many powers with 3 ML1 psykers than with 1 ML3 psyker

Side note: What is this DA formation everyone is referencing? The DA codex came out before Formaitons existed, so how can they have a Formation?

------------
Edit: I am legitimately interested in understanding this other viewpoint (especially since I seem outnumbered). Can someone explain how the dependency is involved? Specifically with a 40k example. Using the ML3 Librarian example, how can he cast more that 3 powers if it depends on his ML

King bobbito; thank you.

Galef: it is a can vs may issue. He can cast a number of powers depending on ml; ml then tells you how many powers he has. Depending on his ml he will have available an equal number of powers with a possible 1-3 bonus ones(force, primaris, and iirc chaos devotional primaris. Although that last one might prevent the nonchaos primaris, i don't recall exactly.)

The author seems to know when to use the term 'depends on' and 'equal to'. Whenever the author wanted a variable to equal to something it states it with the term 'equal to'. You only have to go 2 paragraphs down and you already have an example of a variable specified as equal to the ML. The first paragraph states that it depends on the ML and then the rest of the section decribes the parameters of how this dependency occurs, one of which is the amount of known powers equal to (yes it uses the term 'equal to' not 'depends on') ML none of which can be used more then once by the same model. And then of course warpcharges. Anyways, the author clearly doesn't interchange these terms with the use of American English but makes clear applicable use of the terms where needed.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
King bobbito; thank you.

Galef: it is a can vs may issue. He can cast a number of powers depending on ml; ml then tells you how many powers he has. Depending on his ml he will have available an equal number of powers with a possible 1-3 bonus ones(force, primaris, and iirc chaos devotional primaris. Although that last one might prevent the nonchaos primaris, i don't recall exactly.)

That...kinda helps. Maybe when I read it, I am jumping ahead, assuming GW doesn't write rules with probability in mind. "can" being an absolute limit and "may" being a probable outcome

So, the beginning sentence is a preface, not an actual rule? Let me see if I got this:

A psyker can cast a # of powers dependent on his ML. SInce his ML determines how many powers he KNOWS, he can cast that many. ...OK, I think I am lost again
-----------------------------------
I think I like Dcannon4life's response:

"How many powers can my L1 psyker cast each turn?"
"Says it depends on your Mastery Level."
"Hmm, my Mastery Level is 1, so I guess I can cast all three..."

WHAT!?!?!?!

 Galef wrote:
I just cant get past this sentence: "The number of powers a psyker can use each turn DEPENDS on his ML" I don't think that I ever will. I would like to ignore it, since later the BRB says you can keep casting as long as you have WC, but I just cant reconcile both sections.

If this was the case then you could cast almost twice as many powers with 3 ML1 psykers than with 1 ML3 psyker

Side note: What is this DA formation everyone is referencing? The DA codex came out before Formaitons existed, so how can they have a Formation?

------------
Edit: I am legitimately interested in understanding this other viewpoint (especially since I seem outnumbered). Can someone explain how the dependency is involved? Specifically with a 40k example. Using the ML3 Librarian example, how can he cast more that 3 powers if it depends on his ML

Your core issue seems to be that you're working under the false understanding that "depends on" is the same as "equal to". There have been numerous counter examples, yet you refuse to budge.

A 12 year old boy's weekly allowance depends on his father's annual salary. The boy's weekly salary is clearly not equal to his father's annual salary, but a dependency does exist. The weekly allowance might ALSO be dependent on other factors, so there may not be a direct correlation...

1. A 12 year old boy's weekly allowance depends on his father's annual salary.
AND
2. A 12 year old boy's weekly allowance depends on his mother's annual salary.
AND
3. A 12 year old boy's weekly allowance depends on how well behaved he was the prior week.

Compare to...
1. The number of powers a psyker can cast depends on his mastery level.
AND
2. The number of powers a psyker can cast depends on how many powers he knows.
AND
3. The number of powers a psyker can cast depends on how many warp charges he has access to.

You're misunderstanding what a dependency is. It's a relationship, but it's not an equality.

 Kriswall wrote:

You're misunderstanding what a dependency is. It's a relationship, but it's not an equality.

Best line posted in this thread. Exalted.

 Galef wrote:


Side note: What is this DA formation everyone is referencing? The DA codex came out before Formaitons existed, so how can they have a Formation?

It's a dataslate released last year called the Librarius Conclave.
Ezekiel + 3-5 DA librarians. It's not bad but is not very cost effective.

 Galef wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
King bobbito; thank you.

Galef: it is a can vs may issue. He can cast a number of powers depending on ml; ml then tells you how many powers he has. Depending on his ml he will have available an equal number of powers with a possible 1-3 bonus ones(force, primaris, and iirc chaos devotional primaris. Although that last one might prevent the nonchaos primaris, i don't recall exactly.)

That...kinda helps. Maybe when I read it, I am jumping ahead, assuming GW doesn't write rules with probability in mind. "can" being an absolute limit and "may" being a probable outcome

So, the beginning sentence is a preface, not an actual rule? Let me see if I got this:

A psyker can cast a # of powers dependent on his ML. SInce his ML determines how many powers he KNOWS, he can cast that many. ...OK, I think I am lost again
-----------------------------------
I think I like Dcannon4life's response:

"How many powers can my L1 psyker cast each turn?"
"Says it depends on your Mastery Level."
"Hmm, my Mastery Level is 1, so I guess I can cast all three..."

WHAT!?!?!?!

Again, that's just an example of someone having no idea what the word "depends" means.

Here's yet another example...

The number of coins I can hold depends on how many hands I have. Per your argument, I have two hands, so I can only ever carry two coins. This is clearly ludicrous. Let's say I can hold 10 coins per hand. If I have one hand, I can hold 10 coins. If I have two hands, I can hold 20 coins. The number of coins I can hold clearly depends on the number of hands I have available, but there is no equality.

 Kriswall wrote:

Compare to...
1. The number of powers a psyker can cast depends on his mastery level.
AND
2. The number of powers a psyker can cast depends on how many powers he knows.
AND
3. The number of powers a psyker can cast depends on how many warp charges he has access to.

You're misunderstanding what a dependency is. It's a relationship, but it's not an equality.

^^^This helps a bit. My misunderstanding seems to be centered around implying a set number when that number isn't there "yet". I assumed "equals to" because it mentions a number (so we are looking for a quantity), then mastery level. Mastery level later dictates how many powers you know, thus I correlated the 2 "numbers" together as the set limit. But what I am hearing is that bonuses such as Psychic focus, add to this "number"

Clearly a list with multiple psykers is not going to harness enough WC to cast all the powers they know, but a list with only 1 ML1-2 psyker would have spare dice if they cant attempt to use all there powers.

So the later rule that says a psyker can continue to cast as long as there are enough WC dice is the rule that "caps" the total number of powers. I can dig that.

I still think there is no reason to have written the introduction sentence in reference to ML. The whole section can work without that and would have avoided my (and plenty of others) confusion.


-

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm curious how you guys interpret the phrase "The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level."

The higher a psyker's level the more dice you get in your pool guaranteed. The more dice you have in your pool the greater the number of things you may spend that pool on. Reading the rules for psychic powers and treating 7th edition as if it was the only edition of the game I find it hard to believe any one would ever see it differently.

The number of cars Jim can purchase each year depends on his salary. While other factors may affect Jim's buying power, such as the cost of those cars, or the amount of money Jim makes from additional sources of income, it does not change the fact that the greater Jim's salary is the more buying power he has and therefore the 1st statement is true.

Its no different with Psykers.

DCannon4Life wrote:
Does 'use each turn' not mean 'cast each turn? It definitely doesn't mean 'know each turn'.

"How many powers can my L1 psyker cast each turn?"
"Says it depends on your Mastery Level."
"Hmm, my Mastery Level is 1, so I guess I can cast all three..."

O.o

"What score do I need to hit with a shooting attack?"
"Says it depends on your BS."
"Hmm, my BS is 1, so ..."


Once again, without the dependancy being defined, the statement about number of powers depending on ML is meaningless.

All we can do is refer to the rest of the section, which tells us that we can continue to cast until we run out of charges.

 insaniak wrote:

All we can do is refer to the rest of the section, which tells us that we can continue to cast until we run out of charges.

Bingo. The "dependence" on ML in 6th ed, clearly meant "equals". in 6th, a ML3 psyker could only cast 3 powers. By introducing the Psychic phase the way they did in 7th, they left room for confusion, until you read the section in its entirety.

"The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level." SHOULD have said: "The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on how many Warp Charge are available." That way you would know to read on to find the exact quantity, rather than associating the number of ML



-

 Galef wrote:
"The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level." SHOULD have said: "The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on how many Warp Charge are available." That way you would know to read on to find the exact quantity, rather than associating the number of ML

but that's still not accurate. If I have 3 warp charges available and my psyker knows 2 powers that requires 2 successes and a single power that requires 1 success the number of powers he can manifest will depend on which powers he manifests and how many dice I spend attempting to manifest each power.

 Galef wrote:
"The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on how many Warp Charge are available."

Perhaps even the following would've been sufficient:

"The psyker can use any number of psychic powers known to him."

The rest of the rules set up the limitations perfectly (ie: need warp charge, can't manifest twice).

The statement is totally true the ML does depend on how many powers you can cast when you total them all up and start spending warp charges.