Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
What major tournament have the eldar been "sweeping"?

They barely place top 5 most of the time, as far as I can recall...

I guess you haven't been paying much attention over the years.

Last two big tournaments I recall were adeptacon and the LVO, how did the eldar fare in those events? How many in the top ten? The eldar are a good codex, no doubt. But the hype the internet gives it says they can't be beaten. So, every flavor of the monther, and everybody who has always played them take them to the tournaments. They are then crushed by other good armies that no one believes is good because math (apparently)

In conclusion, if eldar are accounting for 20-30% of the armies in tournaments, and are supposedly so brokenly overpowered that it ruins the game, why do they rarely make it into the top 10 in almost every major tournament in the united states?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
What major tournament have the eldar been "sweeping"?

They barely place top 5 most of the time, as far as I can recall...

I guess you haven't been paying much attention over the years.

Last two big tournaments I recall were adeptacon and the LVO, how did the eldar fare in those events? How many in the top ten? The eldar are a good codex, no doubt. But the hype the internet gives it says they can't be beaten.

Keep in mind the new codex wasn't out for either of these events. However, at the Adepticon Champsionships, armies containing at least 1 Eldar detachment were in 9 of the 32 (out of ~220 players) that made it to the Finals and IIRC placed like 3rd and 5th (while the new Necrons, the other army people have accused of being over-hyped, also did very well with 4 finishers in the top 10). At the LVO, if you look at the top 32 again (out of ~220 players), there are 9 armies with an Eldar detachment and a 3rd place finish (note that the LVO also had modified Invisibility rules in place)

But (let's keep in mind) there were a HUGE number of eldar players. If they were really that broken, they would have won the things.

Let's not forget, the waveserpents were the keystone of almost every list there involving eldar. The drop in range and being one use only will validate a lot of cover dependent builds that would have just been a waste of time before. You will see a resurgence of medium to heavy armor and things like imperial guard heavy weapons teams behind defense lines. Because now the killing power of the eldar isn't guaranteed to out range them and remove their only real defense.

The meta shift will bring more varied builds in the armies already out there (including eldar themselves) and will actually allow more armies to compete. The next level of 40k will be surprising, and I believe, more well rounded.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
But (let's keep in mind) there were a HUGE number of eldar players. If they were really that broken, they would have won the things.

You can't be assured that anything will automatically win any event. Event specific rules, matchups, poor dice rolls, mirror match knockouts, extensive tailoring (leaving armies vulnerable to other threats that may place better than they otherwise would have), and any number of other things can conspire to hold something back. I'm not quite sure exactly how this worked at either event but its also possible to have a 1st place and 3rd place at many events determined by margin of victory rather than any differences in actual victories scored.

Just looking singularly at the top place doesn't tell you much. Looking at the overall rankings will tell you a lot more. If an army doesn't win the very top spot, but routinely places in the top 5 and typically comprises ~30% of the top 15% of placings, it's probably a pretty strong indication that the army is far more powerful than the vast majority of its contemporaries.

Let's not forget, the waveserpents were the keystone of almost every list there involving eldar. The drop in range and being one use only will validate a lot of cover dependent builds that would have just been a waste of time before. You will see a resurgence of medium to heavy armor and things like imperial guard heavy weapons teams behind defense lines. Because now the killing power of the eldar isn't guaranteed to out range them and remove their only real defense.

I don't think you'll see a resurgence in IG heavy weapons teams, they're still pretty crappy and there's still plenty out there that can remove them quite efficiently. The new Jetbikes take the place of the old Serpent quite effectively.

The meta shift will bring more varied builds in the armies already out there (including eldar themselves) and will actually allow more armies to compete. The next level of 40k will be surprising, and I believe, more well rounded.

We'll see, but changing horses midstream in terms of codex development paradigm is going to leave a good number of armies hanging out to dry for some time.

The numbers are actually meaningless without knowing how many Eldar players there were in total. 9/32 is very high -- 28% -- but, if they started as 180/220 that would be terrible. on the other hand, if they started as 18 out of 220, and 9 progressed that would be insane.

 Talys wrote:
The numbers are actually meaningless without knowing how many Eldar players there were in total. 9/32 is very high -- 28% -- but, if they started as 180/220 that would be terrible. on the other hand, if they started as 18 out of 220, and 9 progressed that would be insane.

Both events had ~30-40 armies with an Eldar detachment of some sort (not counting drops). So if we look at the LVO (since I've got their numbers open), armies with an Eldar detachment numbered 40 players out of 221 attendees, comprising ~18% of attendees, and ~28% of finalists, being represented in the finals at a rate ~56% above that which they appear in the general tournament.

WELLLLL..... forget Grav Centurions!

Next time I want to bring cheese I'm bringing a bunch of these in a CAD.

Ehhh, the 4+ armor save and lower base ballistic skill, and not,coming with Tigurius or Loth kind of kills it for me. No amps on top of that is kind of balanced out by the extra shot, but...

Long live Draigo Cent Star?

Ah! No amps! Good catch! Totally forgot that you need the amps for rerolls to wound/glance. Since nothing else has had a grav cannon apart from cents before, I forgot the cannon and amp were seperate things. That is huge when combined with the lower bs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It effectively makes them 2.4 times less effective against vehicles. (2/3 x 11/36) / (1/2 x 1/6).
1.6 times less effective against 2+ saves (2/3 x 35/36) / (1/2 x 5/6).
1.8 times less effective against 3+ saves (2/3 x 8/9) / (1/2 x 2/3)
And 2 times less effective against 4+ saves (2/3 x 3/4) / (1/2 x 1/2)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've changed my mind - they are still crazy good. Not as OP as wraithguard or cent star though.

Multiple D shots is just too good the wraiths. Let us not also forget that Guide is a Primaris. Enough shots are going to land that 6's are going to happen a lot of the time even without Guide. And other results on a 2+ are just gravy.

Yeah, enough is enough. I quit.

 Talys wrote:
Wow, those are neat buffs on the Canticles.

WHY did GW have to make the marshmallow man robot :\ I wonder if it's physically the same size as Thanatar Siege automata. It's my only resistance towards building a Cult force lol. I just can't do it.

It's the size of a Castellax. Thanatar is riptide sized.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tbh because they're not as good as either of those?

Keep in mind:

1) they are VERY BULKY. that means 3, max, in a drop pod. Wraithguard can have up to 10 in a Wave Serpent.

2) 1.5 torsion hits has about the same chances of killing a vehicle as a standard 2-melta marine squad drop. Higher range, but six wounds as opposed to ten, no bolters, I am not convinced.

3) BS3, 4+ armor on destroyers, they're slower. SM grav-bikes get 12" move, and grav destroyers have 2+ and more shots per point thanks to BS4 amps.

 Talys wrote:


Heavy Battle Servitors: Models with this special rule cannot make Run moves but can fire up to two weapons in each Shooting phase. Furthermore, models with this special rule count as stationary when firing Heavy or Salvo weapons, even if they moved int he previous Movement phase, and are allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Rapid Fire, Heavy, or Salvo weapons.

Salvo shoots the second number and full range when standing still so they always shoot 30" with 6 shots due to counting as stationary.

Wraith guard are bulky, max 6 in a serpent.

Ah right. Either way, point still stands: 4 D hits >>>> 1.5 Str 8 AP1 hits.

These things out of a drop pod are pretty tame, I'd be far more scared of 10 skiitari vanguard with 3 arc rifles.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
What major tournament have the eldar been "sweeping"?

They barely place top 5 most of the time, as far as I can recall...

The eldar have more 1st place wins in the ITC than any other army. Several of those are at comparatively large events like 30-50 people.

Still think WG are better. Much cheaper in points for roughly the same durability to small arms (less against special/heavy weapons), and again, Str D is far superior. It will penetrate any AV on a 2+, potentially negate invulnerable saves, and negates FNP and RP, the same can't be said for the Str 8 AP1 gun the mechanicus units have. Also, WG can get a dedicated transport that effectively negates their lack of range.

These new AdMech troops compare more closely to Necron Destroyers. Similar stats and weaponry.

Lord, they're ugly, though.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Still think WG are better. Much cheaper in points for roughly the same durability to small arms (less against special/heavy weapons), and again, Str D is far superior. It will penetrate any AV on a 2+, potentially negate invulnerable saves, and negates FNP and RP, the same can't be said for the Str 8 AP1 gun the mechanicus units have. Also, WG can get a dedicated transport that effectively negates their lack of range.

These new AdMech troops compare more closely to Necron Destroyers. Similar stats and weaponry.

I believe News said that formation gives them BS4, and Ignores Cover (Seriously... ignore cover?!) Sounds pretty awesome to me.

I would give up 12" Strength D for D3 damage and double the range in a heartbeat. Though the Heavy Grav Cannon sounds even better, to be honest -- at a 30" range. With the old Wraithguard, it was plenty killy enough. Killing something more than dead doesn't really get you bonus points.

Wraithguard can get a dedicated transport -- a wave serpent for 110 points. For 35 points drop pods give you and deep strike, and these guys can fire out of DS.

I think these guys are gonna be the new crazy. We shall see!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:
Lord, they're ugly, though.

I thought they were pretty cool! They certainly look nasty.

These things are awesome! They have a lot of options and some really nasty stuff. Also the models look great. As an elder player who fields scythe guard I would love to see these across the table.

I think they do a different job from scythe guard though who are specialised high-value-target destroyers who usually die the turn after they strike. These guys could do that job, maybe to a lesser degree but look like they could also sit in a gun line like guard can't.

So are we serious about these things being troops, because that's be pretty dope.

Stick 2 3 man units in drop pods for 36 grav shots T1 for the low cost of 400points.


This unit has "win" written all over it.

 Talys wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Still think WG are better. Much cheaper in points for roughly the same durability to small arms (less against special/heavy weapons), and again, Str D is far superior. It will penetrate any AV on a 2+, potentially negate invulnerable saves, and negates FNP and RP, the same can't be said for the Str 8 AP1 gun the mechanicus units have. Also, WG can get a dedicated transport that effectively negates their lack of range.

These new AdMech troops compare more closely to Necron Destroyers. Similar stats and weaponry.

I believe News said that formation gives them BS4, and Ignores Cover (Seriously... ignore cover?!) Sounds pretty awesome to me.

I would give up 12" Strength D for D3 damage and double the range in a heartbeat. Though the Heavy Grav Cannon sounds even better, to be honest -- at a 30" range. With the old Wraithguard, it was plenty killy enough. Killing something more than dead doesn't really get you bonus points.

Wraithguard can get a dedicated transport -- a wave serpent for 110 points. For 35 points drop pods give you and deep strike, and these guys can fire out of DS.

I think these guys are gonna be the new crazy. We shall see!

But don't the GravCannon ones only have a 4+ save? Still crazy good, but they are 55 points (more with the grav cannon?), and a single 42 point D-Scythe armed WG could wipe the entire squad with relative ease. Not saying the shiny new AdMech units aren't great, I just think that at each units' point cost, the WG are a better deal, as they can cause more damage against more unit types, and they don't require allies to make them over the top.

 Talys wrote:


I would give up 12" Strength D for D3 damage and double the range in a heartbeat.

Then you've never used D Weapons.

The Mechanicus + Drop Pods combo is a good illustration of the madness of the Allies system, which makes it literally impossible to balance armies. In this case, Skitarii are pretty obviously designed as a high damage output army balanced by short range and no transports. In fact the codex pretty much says so. They are not supposed to be an alpha-strike army. But the BB allies stuff means that this can easily be gotten around.

You see the same thing with Wraithguard and Webway Portals or Raiders and so forth.