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Hey,

Last night I was just browsing through the rulebook and came across something that left me wondering if it can be true. So sayeth the rulebook:

NO SPECIFIED MELEE WEAPON
If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

PISTOLS AS CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON
A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol's shooting profile are ignored.

So my dilemma is this: A tactical marine (at least in the DA book) is not listed as having a weapon with the Melee type. Frag & Krak grenades, a bolt pistol and a boltgun are the only wargear listed anywhere that I could find in the book. If we look at a tactical squad they clearly have no melee weapons and because the rulebook states that in this case they are being treated as being armed with a CC weapon such as a combat knife or similar. Because the bolt pistol is obviously a Pistol type weapon which happens to use the generic CC weapon profile in melee, the tactical marines therefore have 2 CC weapons and get a bonus attack. I see that the rule for pistols to use the generic profile becomes much more relevant in the case of Plasma pistols etc, because you won't have an S7 AP2 attack in CC.

Please, prove my reasoning wrong and give me peace of mind or prove me right and make sure I won't be cheated into not having all my attacks in melee.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

PISTOLS AS CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON
A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol's shooting profile are ignored.

Your answer was in your own question. The marine DOES have a CCW - his pistol. As such, he does not gain the free CCW. An elder guardian for example only has a shuriken catapult and thus would gain the CCW as described.

 Massaen wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

PISTOLS AS CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON
A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol's shooting profile are ignored.

Your answer was in your own question. The marine DOES have a CCW - his pistol. As such, he does not gain the free CCW. An elder guardian for example only has a shuriken catapult and thus would gain the CCW as described.

actually, the rule he quoted specifies the "melee" type. which a pistols normal profile will not show.

A pistol has the option to be used as a melee type weapon, as mentioned in the Pistols As Close Combat Weapons rule

as soon as you choose to use the pistol in combat, it becomes a melee weapon and you then don't qualify for the "single close combat weapon" above

 Massaen wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

PISTOLS AS CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON
A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol's shooting profile are ignored.

Your answer was in your own question. The marine DOES have a CCW - his pistol. As such, he does not gain the free CCW. An elder guardian for example only has a shuriken catapult and thus would gain the CCW as described.

But can the pistol have two types at once? If the marine is just standing idly at the tabletop he's listed as having 2 types of grenades, a pistol type weapon and a rapid fire type weapon. By my reasoning then because he doesn't have a weapon with the Melee type (the pistol is just a pistol now because the marine is not in CC) the marine must have a generic close combat weapon. At which point does the "extra" CCW disappear then? The rule concerning the use of pistols as close combat weapons could maybe be understood as only being there to strip pistols of all their extra properties in CC.

Also, if we're really getting into semantics here... the rule says that "A pistol CAN be used as a close combat weapon" and not that it MUST be used as a CCW. if you choose to not use your pistol as your CCW, what weapon are you using then? A generic CCW. AFAIK attacks can be split between weapons in any way you see fit if you have two different weapons (like Abaddon and Tyberos for example) so choosing not to use a certain weapon would reduce your attacks. I don't have my rulebook at work so I might be wrong about this one. You can't lose attacks by not using a certain weapon in cc so you'd still get to attack once and get your second attack because you have the pistol (that you're not using) as a second weapon.

This is not really the way I really want this to be played. Please tell me that I haven't broken the game any more, 40k doesn't really need much more issues.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
But can the pistol have two types at once? If the marine is just standing idly at the tabletop he's listed as having 2 types of grenades, a pistol type weapon and a rapid fire type weapon. By my reasoning then because he doesn't have a weapon with the Melee type (the pistol is just a pistol now because the marine is not in CC) the marine must have a generic close combat weapon. At which point does the "extra" CCW disappear then? The rule concerning the use of pistols as close combat weapons could maybe be understood as only being there to strip pistols of all their extra properties in CC.

Also, if we're really getting into semantics here... the rule says that "A pistol CAN be used as a close combat weapon" and not that it MUST be used as a CCW. if you choose to not use your pistol as your CCW, what weapon are you using then? A generic CCW. AFAIK attacks can be split between weapons in any way you see fit if you have two different weapons (like Abaddon and Tyberos for example) so choosing not to use a certain weapon would reduce your attacks. I don't have my rulebook at work so I might be wrong about this one. You can't lose attacks by not using a certain weapon in cc so you'd still get to attack once and get your second attack because you have the pistol (that you're not using) as a second weapon.

Again - you answer it yourself. If you choose not to use the pistol as a CCW then you can't benefit from 2 CCW and the bonus attack. If you choose (CAN) to use the pistol then you have a CCW and thus are not eligible for the 'free' one.

Attacks can't be split between weapons - you pick 1 to use. Some models may have exceptions to this but in 99% of cases you pick which weapon to use.

 Massaen wrote:


Attacks can't be split between weapons - you pick 1 to use. Some models may have exceptions to this but in 99% of cases you pick which weapon to use.

This is what I was trying to say. You choose to punch or stab the enemy instead of using the pistol (as a club?) and still get the bonus attack for HAVING a second CCW, not USING it.

Also, if marines don't really have combat knives or such then there are a lot of models that are not WYSIWYG. I have plenty of models with (ceremonial) knifes that I could imagine boing also used in CC. Also, why isn't a marine's power armoured fist counted as a CCW? Getting punched by that would be like getting hit by a brick wall. They also have 2 fists

Doesn't the profile for using a pistol in close combat include the me lee type? If it does then the pistol is the marines CCW, and as such can't claim the no weapon one

 statu wrote:
Doesn't the profile for using a pistol in close combat include the me lee type? If it does then the pistol is the marines CCW, and as such can't claim the no weapon one

It says that the pistol in CC has the generic CCW profile. What I'm really interested in is that do marines have a CCW (combat knife etc.) when not engaged in close combat? And if they do, what makes it vanish when enemies get too close?

Edit: here's how I reason this:

1. Marine is not engaged in close combat and therefore not using the bolt pistol's melee profile
2. Bolt pistol is a "pistol" type weapon now
3. Rulebook states that if you don't have a weapon with the "melee" type, you are treated as having one
4. Because the bolt pistol is a pistol and not melee because you are not in close combat, you therefore must have a CCW
5. In close combat you choose to use your other CCW and not the bolt pistol, even though they have identical profiles at the moment
6. You attack once with your generic CCW and get an extra attack for HAVING (not using) the bolt pistol which conveniently has a melee profile too.

At which point does the invisible CCW disappear?

The rulebook says pistols also count as a CCW.

CCWs are a melee type weapon.

Ta-dah

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

6. You attack once with your generic CCW and get an extra attack for HAVING (not using) the bolt pistol which conveniently has a melee profile too.

The problem is, you don't have a pistol with a melee profile unless you DO choose to use it in the combat.

Point 6 you are counting as having a CCW from the pistol whilst simultaneously claiming it isn't to get the free CCW. You can't do that as soon as you count the pistol as a CCW you lose your generic CCW as that is dependent on the pistol NOT being a CCW.

 CrownAxe wrote:
The rulebook says pistols also count as a CCW.

CCWs are a melee type weapon.

Ta-dah

I know, that's obvious and I quoted the relevant rules in my opening post and this is the way it should be played.

But does a marine have a close combat weapon when he is not in close combat? And if so, when and why does it magically disappear?

Edit: Also, I reckon that the Avatar of Khaine had some sort of disarming ability... if it works the way I remember, what weapon would you use if your bolt pistol gets disarmed and you can't use it? Your magically vanishing and reappearing CCW.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
The rulebook says pistols also count as a CCW.

CCWs are a melee type weapon.

Ta-dah

I know, that's obvious and I quoted the relevant rules in my opening post and this is the way it should be played.

But does a marine have a close combat weapon when he is not in close combat? And if so, when and why does it magically disappear?

It disappears the moment you count the pistol as a CCW...

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
The rulebook says pistols also count as a CCW.

CCWs are a melee type weapon.

Ta-dah

I know, that's obvious and I quoted the relevant rules in my opening post and this is the way it should be played.

But does a marine have a close combat weapon when he is not in close combat? And if so, when and why does it magically disappear?

It disappears the moment you count the pistol as a CCW...

So marines modeled with combat knives are WYSIWYG at one time and suddenly in close combat they are not?

I know that this is getting a bit silly but I'm still not entirely convinced that there is no way to argue this issue. Why does this quantum knife both exist and not exist at the same time? How does a marine attack when disarmed of the bolt pistol?

Its basically like having a pistol and a knife, sometimes on the model you see one and not the other. Sometimes you see both, but only the pistol or knife count as CCW.

a modeled knife is ornamental.

the CCW rule is only written to allow a unit with no melee weapon to fight in close combat

it doesn't have to be a knife. A "counts as" CCW for a space marine could probably his fist (yes, i know he has 2 fists lol)
if he uses his fist, he's not using his pistol. if he uses his pistol, he's not using his fist

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
The rulebook says pistols also count as a CCW.

CCWs are a melee type weapon.

Ta-dah

I know, that's obvious and I quoted the relevant rules in my opening post and this is the way it should be played.

But does a marine have a close combat weapon when he is not in close combat? And if so, when and why does it magically disappear?

It disappears the moment you count the pistol as a CCW...

So marines modeled with combat knives are WYSIWYG at one time and suddenly in close combat they are not?

I know that this is getting a bit silly but I'm still not entirely convinced that there is no way to argue this issue. Why does this quantum knife both exist and not exist at the same time? How does a marine attack when disarmed of the bolt pistol?

WYSIWYG only concerns itself with what a unit can actually take. There is no reason to model them with a combat knife in the first place because it doesn't actual represent anything in the SM's profile.

Righteousrob wrote:
Its basically like having a pistol and a knife, sometimes on the model you see one and not the other. Sometimes you see both, but only the pistol or knife count as CCW.

This is how I see it too and how I'd want it to be played. I don't think that anyone will ever try to pull this trick off against me so I don't think that it will be an issue.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 statu wrote:
Doesn't the profile for using a pistol in close combat include the me lee type? If it does then the pistol is the marines CCW, and as such can't claim the no weapon one

It says that the pistol in CC has the generic CCW profile. What I'm really interested in is that do marines have a CCW (combat knife etc.) when not engaged in close combat? And if they do, what makes it vanish when enemies get too close?

Edit: here's how I reason this:

1. Marine is not engaged in close combat and therefore not using the bolt pistol's melee profile
2. Bolt pistol is a "pistol" type weapon now
3. Rulebook states that if you don't have a weapon with the "melee" type, you are treated as having one
4. Because the bolt pistol is a pistol and not melee because you are not in close combat, you therefore must have a CCW
5. In close combat you choose to use your other CCW and not the bolt pistol, even though they have identical profiles at the moment
6. You attack once with your generic CCW and get an extra attack for HAVING (not using) the bolt pistol which conveniently has a melee profile too.

At which point does the invisible CCW disappear?

There was aquote I saw on another thread that I think is fairly apt here. "If you're having to push that hard to get the fart out, it's probably ."

I prefer to think of it as being in a quantum state. The pistol is both a melee weapon and not a melee weapon. If you choose to use it as a melee weapon then the model does not qualify as a model with no melee weapon, but if you do not choose to use it as a melee weapon then the model does qualify as a model with no melee weapon and gets one essentially for free for those attacks but you can never choose to attack with a weapon you don't have so you will never get bonus attacks.

 DJGietzen wrote:
I prefer to think of it as being in a quantum state. The pistol is both a melee weapon and not a melee weapon. If you choose to use it as a melee weapon then the model does not qualify as a model with no melee weapon, but if you do not choose to use it as a melee weapon then the model does qualify as a model with no melee weapon and gets one essentially for free for those attacks but you can never choose to attack with a weapon you don't have so you will never get bonus attacks.

Yeah, it's the Schrödinger's pistol. At least there is no animal cruelty involved with this thought experiment!

Seems that there is a big confusion here.

Yes if your models do not have a CCW then it count as having only 1 CCW and do not benefits from an additional attack.

How ever, Tactical Martines have a CCW weapon which is the bolt pistol. It does not mention anywhere that they have a CCW in addition to the BP and BG.

In addition, I don't understand why people arguing about "choosing" which CCW you are going to use in CC since the only one you have is the BP (using your models profile).

To end up the argument, no you do not have an extra attack in CC thank to the BP since you only have 1 CCW (which is the BP).

Ref. CSM have access to a CCW in addition to their regular load up for an additional 1 pts per models in order to have +1A in close combat. Why would they be offer to do so if they already have 2 attack each thanks to the BP?

The only purpose of the bolt pistole is to make tactical squads able to shoot and charge (cos BG is a rapid fire weapon).