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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 04:24:23
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Fixture of Dakka
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Jehan-reznor wrote:Talys and jah-joshua yes we know you don't mind the prices, and it that it is great value to you. But the fact of the matter, the amount of people that consider it great value is shrinking, with so many other kickstarter and game systems (Start Wars Armada and x-wing, imperial assault will surely get an upswing after the movie release in December). The gaming world stage is changing, If GW doesn't change their modus operandi others will swing in and claim dominance. I'm happy that people find other games entertaining, I really am. I am likewise happy for people who enjoy golf and baseball, despite that I can't stand either, and I hope their sports and games that I have no interest in thrive. Yet, some people have a venomous attitude towards GW, when their only crime is that they have a different vision of what a product and game should be (for example, a playable model collection, rather than a competitive tabletop sport). It seems some people don't understand how anyone could possibly enjoy 40k as a game or 40k modelling as a hobby, or feel that 40k miniatures, despite their high price, are still the nest value in collectible scifi armies. You know, things that are an opinion and a matter of personal taste. But the part that gets me the most is that some people like to argue GW and their products suck and yet they complain that GW's prices are way too high. I find this duality hilarious, because if you believe this, what does it matter how cheap or expensive their product is, if it sucks? I mean, I wouldn't play a bad video game regardless of price, so why would I spend a zillion hours on a hobby I didn't like? I likewise don't understand the attraction to bad free rules, or even GOOD free rules. I mean, I want the company to succeed, and if they just write rules for free, where is the revenue derived from? What is the incentive to write new stuff, draw new pretty diagrams, and paint new artwork? To me, half the codex of fluff is half the value of the book; I get it that some people think that half is wasted paper. So they should either suck it up, or play another game! At least I'm defending something I like. I can't imagine bothering to give my time to debate a subject on a game I didn't like or didn't feel or would never return to. If I have no intention of playing or collecting 40k, what do I care what robot pope costs, or if the latest codex is printed in 2 years or 10, or whether a $200 limited edition book is insane? Certainly, I could never imagine in my wildest dreams coming back *every week* on every new release to criticize the same company H.B.M.C. wrote: Talys wrote:Though no doubt it is only in the alternate reality pocket dimension in which I live. Admitting you live in an alternate dimension is the first step towards phasing back into reality. I was just stating observable science -- just as the earth is a spheroid , I exist in a special transdimensional reality.  It must be so, because how else is it that our group keeps on having a blast playing 40k year after year? To me, 40k has always been the ultimate nerd pastime, lol.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 04:33:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 04:44:42
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Fresh-Faced New User
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lol its because they think people like you keep gw afloat and if you would all just disappear, gw would die already. then more people could play their games or gw would be bought up by another company that was kind and gentle and loved its players and kept prices for models low and their 2000 point csm army would finally be good again.
Btw talys if you didn't have so many nice models painted on your gallery i would have thought you were just bsing lol, but cheers bro, your models are pretty smokin'. if i could paint like that and i had a good group of friends to play with, my gaming life would be so different.
as it is i think the hardest part is to find good friends to play with. there are so many people i've met in game stores that are total donkey-caves that it is just easier to play a competitive game where your goal is to just demolish the person than to play for fun.
but whatever man, i still like 40k! tried wmh, just can't get into the models, so i sold my circle stuff, traded them for a tyranid army, and even though it ende dup being a total douche trade i'm glad it happened coz now i play orks, and have so much more fun than i ever did in hordes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 04:48:15
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Talys, I think you are missing the point in some respect.
10 years ago GW published 40K as a wargame that could be played competitively. GW ran numerous tournaments including major national competitions. The rules were explicitly structured for play balance in force selection. (Not very well, but that does not affect the intention of the designers.)
The reason why some people are bitter is because they liked that situation despite its faults. It created for them a fun hobby, which GW have stripped away and ruined in various ways over the past 10 years making it much more expensive and harder to play either competitively or casually.
You may say it is fair enough for GW to change their game. I am sure you will understand, though, why the people who have been ejected are angry about it.
The new situation is good news for people who like an ever-changing variety of models and rules. We will see if it is good news for GW when the mid-year financial statement comes out in July.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 04:56:49
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Ghastly Grave Guard
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Talys, which stores do you go to for a discount? I live in Burlington, Ontario and don't know of any nearby who offer that much...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 05:00:04
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Fixture of Dakka
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Fair enough, kilkrazy. For me, I guess if I were in that situation, I would just give up 40k and play a different game. Perhaps champion that game, instead of coming back each week to bemoan how the latest kit or book from GW is overpriced and of poor quality Personally, I NEVER found 40k to be particularly well balanced or inexpensive (and I started in the late 80s...). I mean, if GW ever balanced 40k, we'd lose half the topics of our conversations when we got together to play. But yes, relatively speaking, 40k is definitely a more expensive game than it was a decade ago to "keep up with", especially if you're the type that wants to buy all the books. If you loved 40k despite its faults, not being able to afford the new hyper-release-cycle 40k would suck. As you say, time will tell whether it all works out for GW or if they are forced to strategize anew. Automatically Appended Next Post: Lord Corellia wrote:Talys, which stores do you go to for a discount? I live in Burlington, Ontario and don't know of any nearby who offer that much... I'm on the west coast. :( My 3 favorite stores (I try to share the love a bit!) are Imperial Hobbies, Pastime Hobbies, and Game Stars.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/06/01 05:21:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 05:14:28
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1
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Talys wrote:Yet, some people have a venomous attitude towards GW, when their only crime is that they have a different vision of what a product and game should be (for example, a playable model collection, rather than a competitive tabletop sport).
GWs crimes include at least trying to steal artwork from a freelancer who they hired years ago, lying to a judge and failing to come forward with relevant evidence when asked, filing frivolous lawsuits and all kinds of IP and other legal bullying.
As well there is their very clear attempts to put FLGSs out of business when a new GW store opens across the street. Outright bullying in their trade terms and the generally gakky way they treat all their trade partners.
The attitude the management had that their own employees are their biggest threat is kind of terrifying, that says a lot about how poorly they treat their front line staff.
There are all the embargos forcing absurd regional pricing on people.
Don't for a moment think you can write off the negativity, hell even the real hate, people have for GW as simply not liking the focus on models over rules.
Talys wrote:I likewise don't understand the attraction to bad free rules, or even GOOD free rules. I mean, I want the company to succeed, and if they just write rules for free, where is the revenue derived from? What is the incentive to write new stuff, draw new pretty diagrams, and paint new artwork? To me, half the codex of fluff is half the value of the book; I get it that some people think that half is wasted paper. So they should either suck it up, or play another game!.
You clearly lack a basic understanding of how free rules and good rules drive sales. The irony is that a model company should understand this perfectly but GW don't.
Corvus Belli's online rules don't have all the art and fluff, if you want those you buy the books. In my experience almost everyone does anyway but it lowers the barrier of entry and allows people to try before they buy.
Good rules then encourages people to buy when they try.
And the best part is when players don't have to fret over rules like in 40k they can let their creativity lead the way. There is no hesitation about if a fluffy all jump pack list will be unfun to play because you'll be at a disadvantage. No one complains if you love a model like the wraithknight and bring 4 of them.
If you're still not convinced just look at CBs growth. In the same years GW has has been cutting costs to the bone Corvus Belli was growing 75% year on year.
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Fafnir wrote:Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 05:28:47
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Fixture of Dakka
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@jonolikespie - not to dismiss your points, bud, but I gotta get modelling on my latest BA tactical squad, so I must keep it brief
Your points are not without merit, though I still don't see why anyone would waste their valuable time repeatedly attacking the same company on the same things week after week. It's just mind-boggling to me. I think Kilkrazy's point is more apt, though, as what you've described might deter stores from selling GW, but less so individuals from buying GW.
As a parallel, Walmart treats its employees horribly, yet is one of the largest retailers in the USA. Apple treats its app vendors like gak, yet it remains one of the most popular mobile platforms.
It's not that I don't understand how the "free" model works, I just don't agree that it makes any sense. I own Corvus Belli (yes, all the rulebook versions). But I can't imagine downloading them and theorizing whether it would be a good game before I bought it. Much more likely, I'd ask the guy at the FLGS what he thought, and I'd ask what other players thought, maybe I'd read a review online -- and then I'd just buy the book. I can't even imagine reading a rulebook without the context of the fluff. To me, the value of that really is zero.
However, I do see that a rulebook UPDATE for free would be valuable, especially if it were minor changes only.
Anyways, sorry, man, gotta go -- too much time on forums tonight... will chat with you another time!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 06:29:36
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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jah-joshua wrote:sorry, mate, i don't think i am being wilfully blind, or a White Knight...
I wasn't referring to you.
There is every reason to be snarky. It's part of my charm.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 08:13:55
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Calculating Commissar
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Talys wrote:
1. A single person making all the decisions has way less overhead than a large company doing a lot of stuff. Why does the lone programmer cost less per hour than someone with less skill at Accenture? Why does a solo homebuilder/contractor cost less than a large construction company? Why does an independent electrician cost less per hour than the big company that wires up the condo building? There are economies of scale, yes. But generally speaking, a 1-man show is much more efficient than a large corporation with many mouths to feed. The 1-man show can win out on everything except the basis of scale and certainty. If the one guy gets hit by a bus or wins a lottery, that line of products has a good chance of ending.
That's maybe how it works in plumbing because of the low overheads, but not in manufacturing. GW, with it's hundreds of employees and in-house everything can do everything for a much lower unit cost than a one-man band that likely has to outsource some design work, master casting, mould making, production, bases, packaging and then pays full whack on everything else.
GW has in-house casting, design, moulding, production, packaging and distribution.
If GW was expensive because it was big, then wouldn't it just split into smaller companies?
2. Size of catalog has EVERYTHING to do with detail quality, production quality and price:
- It's MUCH harder to make a hundred plus new models a year designed by a team of people over 30+ years to be consistent in theme, continuity, and quality, than a couple of models each year designed by 1 guy.
- As you use molds, they degrade. The more times you use it, the poorer the cast. So small run companies (like Forge World) will have fewer mold lines and better casts than mass produced product.
- A large catalog is really expensive to produce, stock and distribute. The easiest way to save on prices is to have fewer SKUs, and sell more of a smaller number of sets.
Again, not how it works. It's much easier to produce 100+ new guys when you've got a 30 year back catalog to work from, especially since you can take the armatures or digital files for the bulk of them (space marines) and modify them. Do you think it's a co-incident all the Marine parts are interchangeable or is it likely they all use the same stock torsos?
GW also has a team of folk, so the little guy has no advantage there.
Moulds degrade, sure, depending on the complexity of the model, but good casters will reject the mould and get a new one made when they need it. Since GW can do it in house whilst most smaller shops have to send them away, GW saves costs and turnaround. The mould maker will also want a profit, and there's shipping overheads, nether of which GW has to deal with when getting moulds made up by Dave in the next room.
Large catalogs are expensive to maintain, and inventory has a cost (which is why GW is driving down the SKU count - they need to have less stock sitting on shelves). But there are many one-man bands, particularly in historicals, who easily have as many SKU's as GW does. Look at what Tumbling Dice or Hasslefree stock, or West Wind (though there#s 6 of them). For a bigger operation, have a look at the Foundry catalog and be stunned at how small the GW collection is.
Warlord Games are producing nearly as much new stuff as GW does on a monthly basis, whilst being much smaller (There's only about 10 of them).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/11 09:11:06
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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Herzlos wrote:
Warlord Games are producing nearly as much new stuff as GW does on a monthly basis, whilst being much smaller (There's only about 10 of them).
Warlord are an interesting comparison. I think it's great what they do, altho it's not necessarily to my tastes, but the price of their terminator box set is hardly any different to the Space Hulk I've just finished painting.
their historicals make GW look overpriced, but they are a low overhead company, with 50 employees. GW is a high-overhead company, with a network of shops, many in expensive locations, and they are, unfortunately, publicly owned, which encourages a short-term mindset - it's a known problem with British businesses.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 09:14:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 09:22:08
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Calculating Commissar
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Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:Herzlos wrote:
Warlord Games are producing nearly as much new stuff as GW does on a monthly basis, whilst being much smaller (There's only about 10 of them).
Warlord are an interesting comparison. I think it's great what they do, altho it's not necessarily to my tastes, but the price of their terminator box set is hardly any different to the Space Hulk I've just finished painting.
Yeah the Terminator game is costly on a per mini basis compared to the historics, but remember they are also paying license fees on it. Ditto with the Judge Dredd game; it's a bit expensive, but then it's all metal minis under license.
their historicals make GW look overpriced, but they are a low overhead company, with 50 employees. GW is a high-overhead company, with a network of shops, many in expensive locations, and they are, unfortunately, publicly owned, which encourages a short-term mindset - it's a known problem with British businesses.
I don't think Warlord has 50 employees, last time I visited they had about 4 industrial estate units and maybe 10, so maybe they've grown to 15-20.
Anyway, you're missing how economies of scale should work. Sure GW has expensive stores in expensive locations, and an expensive HQ, but they should be a smaller percentage of GW's costs than Warlords set up is to Warlord.
The fact that GW's stores cost them almost all of their profit is because of the way they are run, and not an occupational hazard of stores. Stores should make you money rather than losing it.
Warlord also don't do plastics in-house, I think they use Renedra. So they likely pay at least twice as much per sprue than GW does (giving Renedra a 50% profit margin), and they don't ship as many orders, so are probably in a lower shipping tier than GW, so will pay more there too. They also don't machine their own moulds (again, Renedra does it for them, with a 50% profit margin).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 09:34:24
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Been Around the Block
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Well, I am pretty new to Warhammer 40,000. My boyfriend introduced me to it, and I've been mostly playing with his friends. I've played a couple of their other games too, but I have to say that the one that attracts me the most is Warhammer. I'm not very good at painting yet, but I am getting better! Fidgeting with all the Orky bits is just wonderful fun. In the last 8 or so months, I've spent maybe $600 on models, and mostly I just steal my boyfriend's supplies! When it comes right down to the math, Warhammer is less than $80 a month, and we get a lot of fun out of it. I mean, geez, I spend more than that on one trip to the grocery store. When I read through a few pages of this thread I saw that this was all about paint that went up a quarter (?), but when I looked online, they're still the same price, $5 here in Canada. I don't know how you guys can make such a big to-do over that, even if it did. Now I guess I wasn't into this way back when it was really cheap, but looking at the prices today as someone new to the game (and the painting!), it really doesn't seem that expensive. We play once, sometimes twice a week, and I think the amount of money each of us puts in the kitty for pizza, wings, chips, popcorn, and drinks is more than the amount of money I spend at the hobby shop. When I compare it to the amount of money I spend on good old fashioned books, it's tiny. But I do really enjoy reading. I'm not a rich person by any stretch. I am a professional photographer, mostly weddings, and I don't make bundles of money. Still, it seems Warhammer 40,000 is just not as horribly expensive as you all seem to make it. Am I doing something wrong? lol. To put it into context, how much do you guys think is "normal" to spend on a game each month, anyways? Anyways, my boyfriend no longer has a choice. He's has to practice Warhammer with me when I want to, so that I can get better and actually win without people cheating and throwing the game!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 09:37:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 09:35:53
Subject: Re:GW price increase June 1
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Mighty Kithkar
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Talys wrote: Korraz wrote:Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a store that gives 25% off, though. In fact, around here the best a store can do is 10% off, or GW will stop supplying them.
But, you live in Austria. In the EU (and Canada/US) that is not legal. But in Europe, you can buy GW stuff off the Internet at 25% off, can't you?
Oh, you are completely right. They cannot forbid you from giving a 25% or higher discount.
What they can do however is to give you the advice to not to. Should you not heed this advice, it could happen that new product fails to reach you, on occasion. Not on purpose, of course, mistakes happen, we just didn't have enough to supply everyone. This might happen with increasing frequency. Then we might decide to end our contract with you for numerous reasons, none of which will be the fact that you undercut the GW up the street.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 09:52:04
Subject: Re:GW price increase June 1
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Combat Jumping Ragik
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Sidstyler wrote:
Also kind of a weird stance to take when you make such a big deal out of supporting the company, and your friends employed at said company. Buying retail supports GW more than buying online at a discount, and buying directly from GW's website supports them the most as they take all the profit from it. But whatever.
Had to be done
My one LGS doesn't offer a discount, they have a rewards program that equates to about 10%. I could go to discountgamesinc.com for my PP models and get 30% off but I'd rather support the local store because I can afford to. Now for my GW stuff I go to the other LGS who offers 20% off (doesn't carry much PP) but even then it's hard to keep up when I need 3 boxes of grave guard at 41.25 each to make a unit. I make it a point to support my LGS but I don't then demand more discounts.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: For me, GW has long passed the point of being worth my time and money. Though I still like 40k and would rather see it become something I would once again like to put my time and money in.
I'm starting to agree with you.
GW keeps pricing people out. For a while I stayed, I bought less often, but I bought. I KNOW this is an expensive hobby I KNOW if I want a cheap hobby to look elsewhere but I don't like cheap hobbies, I'm a PC gamer who wanted a kickass machine, I could have built one better than the XBONE/PS4 for cheaper but I didn't want better, I wanted amaze-balls 4k@60fps and was willing to pay for it. I'm a hockey goalie and if you don't know what that costs, well one of my gloves ranges between $200-$500. That's ONE GLOVE, not even a set.
So I was used to and OK with paying GW prices but it's at the tipping point and it comes at a critical moment. I'm a fantasy player and the price hikes at the same time as the insanely uncertain future of fantasy is just pushing me further away. I look at GW prices and look at PP prices or Wyrd prices or FFG with xwing or armada and I just can't justify paying GW prices anymore when there are so many competitors who are so much cheaper and I'm not alone. My local fantasy scene is down to like 4 players regularly (8 semi-regularly) and the local 40k scene is down to maybe 10 from like 30, yet the WM/H scene has grown to well over 30 in the same amount of time. GW may be big dog, they will likely stay there for a while, but they cannot keep on this course now that there's competition & competition that's growing fast.
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Trade rules: lower rep trades ships 1st. - I ship within 2 business days, if it will be longer I will contact you & explain. - I will NOT lie on customs forms, it's a felony, do not ask me to mark sales as "gifts". Free shipping applies to contiguous US states. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 10:28:08
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Calculating Commissar
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Vyxen wrote: When it comes right down to the math, Warhammer is less than $80 a month, and we get a lot of fun out of it. I mean, geez, I spend more than that on one trip to the grocery store.
...
To put it into context, how much do you guys think is "normal" to spend on a game each month, anyways?
To put it into some perspective, I've just started getting into the War Of The Roses (English Civil War circa 1450), using Perry miniatures. That $80 got me 118 multi-part plastic mini's, or an entire army of a pretty decent size. Throw in another $10 for MDF bases. It'll take me a couple of months to get them from sprue to tabletop.
The reason I use this example? The mini's are comparible scale to Warhammer (lots of folk use them as Bretonnians/Empire), in the same material, by the same sculptors, with a similar number of options. Yet the price is completely different.
Now, I love Warhammer too (I've got a large Dwarf force), but compared to other games in the wargaming hobby it's just so much more expensive.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 10:30:33
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:Herzlos wrote:
Warlord Games are producing nearly as much new stuff as GW does on a monthly basis, whilst being much smaller (There's only about 10 of them).
Warlord are an interesting comparison. I think it's great what they do, altho it's not necessarily to my tastes, but the price of their terminator box set is hardly any different to the Space Hulk I've just finished painting.
their historicals make GW look overpriced, but they are a low overhead company, with 50 employees. GW is a high-overhead company, with a network of shops, many in expensive locations, and they are, unfortunately, publicly owned, which encourages a short-term mindset - it's a known problem with British businesses.
Thing is, being a high overhead company (which I totally agree with, it's the main source of their issues and the reason why at this point they couldn't change even if they wanted to) is totally GW's fault, probably as a result of being run by a greedy former taxman for the last 20 ish years, rather than someone with a little more relevant knowledge and experience.
It isn't a problem inherent to the model making industry, unlike other industries which may rely on low margin, high turnover approach as standard, it's just a symptom of bad management prioritising total control over efficiency and flexibility.
As for the price of Terminator vs Space Hulk, would you agree that, rather than Terminator being notably expensive, that Space Hulk is at least in the ball park of what boxed mini games cost? The top end, sure, but not as far out of whack as some of their other products. Automatically Appended Next Post: jah-joshua wrote: Azreal13 wrote:So much fallacy so little time.
There's quite a bit here, and I'd normally multi quote and respond to each point, but it's late and I'm tired, so..
Whoever said the thing about the legality of GW refusing to supply third parties who deep discount? Don't be so naive. They don't refuse to supply on those grounds, they find some other reason, manufacture one if needed. I think one could even argue they've made wholesale changes to their Trade Terms in order to get the result they want. I can't decide against employing a woman on the grounds that she is female, or not attractive, or any other gender reason. I simply declare I don't feel she'd be a good fit in the company and unless I'm an utter moron and spew the real reason everywhere, no one can prove any different.
Secondly, the point several have made about "prices aren't important, I don't pay RRP." For heavens sake, basic maths people! 20% discount on £50 is still a greater total than 20% discount on £45, just because you've convinced yourselves that you've somehow mitigated the cost doesn't mean you're unaffected.
Incidentally, these are price rises on products that are produced, designed and manufactured for approx 1/4 of RRP. Double the traditional retail mark up. These are also prices that, in the main, are derived from petrochemicals, when the price of crude is at a decently low price, and lower than it has been than over the last several years. In addition to all this, this is a price rise when UK inflation is in the negative for the first time in over half a century.
There is no justification for the rise outside of GW's inefficiencies, inadequacies or greed, all masked under the guise of giving Malibu Stacey a new hat.
Finally, GW IS NOT A HOBBY!
feeling a little bit condescending and dismissive today, Az??
that post seems a bit harsh...
Highlighted part should have been your first clue, but it is natural to demonise people with opposing views to your own I guess.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 10:33:59
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 10:37:22
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Calculating Commissar
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Azreal13 wrote:
As for the price of Terminator vs Space Hulk, would you agree that, rather than Terminator being notably expensive, that Space Hulk is at least in the ball park of what boxed mini games cost? The top end, sure, but not as far out of whack as some of their other products.
Definitely. Retail* for Space Hulk is a big higher than most games, but it's not outlandish (I paid about the same Super Dungeon Explore).
I think we can all agree that GW's starter box sets are usually good value for money (Assasinorium and dreadfleet excepted), it's just everything else that seems expensive.
*Of course, making it a limited release meant the 3rd party prices were insane, making it seem even worse. £70/£75 for a giant boxed game isn't too far out there, but £140 is nuts.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 10:39:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 11:52:51
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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I'll just pop in to say a few things that have been mentioned already but bear repeating:
Games Workshop products are roughly equal on a per-model basis to its competitor warmachine and some others, but on the whole since you need more models to play the game that still results in Games Workshop being more expensive. This makes it harder to access, and less popular than perhaps it should be. They could make them cheaper, sure. They could also give everything away for free. And don't take that the wrong way---I'm not saying it'd kill them to lower their prices, but I really don't know if lowering their prices would actually solve their problems.
In my opinion, after all of the costs that Games Workshop seems to have cut in recent years, and the fact that almost everything they sell has a near-infinite shelf life, the only way I can imagine they're losing money is in all of the production of new content they've been doing. Plastic isn't cheap, but both creating a detailed miniature, breaking it down into a sprue in a way that's practical, and then creating a new mold for it may not be the cheapest thing to do. And since they seem to be going at it faster and harder than they ever have before, this may all just be one big investment, in which case, hats off to Games Workshop, because I am completely on board with that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 12:10:36
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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The final report before the accelerated release schedule really kicked off had the cost of sales at ~24% IIRC. This report was also the first to include all the development and design costs as part of the cost of sales rather than a separate item in the financials.
The most recent report showed a mild increase in cost of sales as a percentage (~26% IIRC) and as that percentage is expressed as a fraction of their revenue, which fell, but in actual fact the difference in actual cash is only a few thousand pounds.
So, no, GW aren't spending any notable amount more on making product now than they were under the old release scheme.
Plastic is also very cheap, but I assume you mean that the production of plastic kits isn't cheap, which is a thought that kind of hangs over from years ago. A HIPS kit still requires the most up front investment to produce, but one also has to reconcile that with the fact that GW owns all their own equipment and staff, so they are paying the least it is possible to do so in order to make them. One only has to look at the recent increase in single mini plastic clam packs to understand how cheap plastic production must be for GW now, even at their prices, the volume of those model's sales is not going to be huge, players need perhaps two at most of many, and collectors no real compelling reason to buy more than one, yet GW obviously feel the returns are sufficient to justify he investment.
GW are currently struggling with a combination of falling sales and a dearth of things left to cut from the variable costs, the increased production doesn't seem to be a significant factor at all.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 12:12:53
Subject: Re:GW price increase June 1
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Stoic Grail Knight
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The points inflation is really having a significant impact on the accessibility to the game as well. What we've seen with the most recent releases having formations that offer the next step in the continuum- giving units free upgrades to units, therreby allowing you to cram even more things into the same list.
Both 3rd and 7th edition 40k are the same mid-size battle game, except the army for 7th is probably about twice as big for the same points limit. Are you really getting that much more enrichment from dumping the extra models on the table? I would hazard a guess that most of us really aren't, so we're stuck paying more and more money for the same game. And I don't think that's a pill a lot of people want to swallow anymore.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 12:15:37
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Herzlos wrote:Vyxen wrote: When it comes right down to the math, Warhammer is less than $80 a month, and we get a lot of fun out of it. I mean, geez, I spend more than that on one trip to the grocery store.
...
To put it into context, how much do you guys think is "normal" to spend on a game each month, anyways?
To put it into some perspective, I've just started getting into the War Of The Roses (English Civil War circa 1450), using Perry miniatures. That $80 got me 118 multi-part plastic mini's, or an entire army of a pretty decent size. Throw in another $10 for MDF bases. It'll take me a couple of months to get them from sprue to tabletop.
The reason I use this example? The mini's are comparible scale to Warhammer (lots of folk use them as Bretonnians/Empire), in the same material, by the same sculptors, with a similar number of options. Yet the price is completely different.
Now, I love Warhammer too (I've got a large Dwarf force), but compared to other games in the wargaming hobby it's just so much more expensive.
To give another perspective, I gave up 40K when 6th edition came along, partly because of the direction the rules were going and partly due to cost. If I wanted just to continue playing the game I would have to buy new rules and two codexes for my two armies, this would have cost £110 without any money spent on new unit models. So it came to the point that I could get more fun and variety from more games for less money by not continually paying to maintain my 40K stuff on the new GW upgrade cycle.
With the release of the new Assault Marines, you can now buy about 100 Perry Bros plastic historicals for the same as only 10 space marines. You can make entire large historical armies for the price of a sub-1000 point 40K "army". People still say it is good value for money.
That is one viewpoint and mine is different. They are both personal, of course.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 13:04:13
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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Talys wrote:There are many optional adornments like belt accessories (pistols, pouches, grenades, knives, etc), banners, pelts, auspex or iron halo -- some have a game function, others are cosmetic.
It is one of my pet peeves for people to list these add-ons as value added. Disclaimer: I am a modeller first. I convert heavily. I USE THE EXTRA STUFF THEY GIVE ME.
Even so: I have HEAPS of unused pistols, pouches, grenades knives. IMHO, these things are almost entirely worthless, and they make up 30% of the "value added" bits provided. In their virgin form they are too large to fit on the model without making your model look like he's carrying a load of luggage. The pouches in particular barely fit on between the torso and the figure's arms. Holstered pistols are gigantic and awkwardly bulky. Whenever I use them, I have to shave down the pouch about 30% to get a better fit. I have not seen ANYONE use the knives. They sheathed knives are scaled so when glued to the waist they are only slightly smaller than a sword. Marines carrying 2 handers won't use the regular knives, and sgts usually have a ccw/pistol loadout.
My biggest beef is with the included tabbards. I haven't figured out a way to glue this on without it looking like the Marine has a piece of bent steel plating glued to his crotch. These all get chucked into the bitz box... The models where the tabbards are attached to the torso is the better way of doing it.
Things like weapons and in-game options: I understand GW's logic behind the moar weapons moar monies approach, but the additions are getting ridiculous. Soon we'll have portable vortex generators( tm) and twin-linked tempest bovine launchers( tm). All included in the base kit to justify the $10 price increase. Since these are necessary for the customer to use the product as the unit it represents... it's represented the move from "pay to play", to "pay more to play".
Things like alternate heads, shoulderpads, chestplates, purity seals, banner tops: I like and use these, but I have mixed feelings about them making them a "must buy" part of the kit. They don't give enough of the good gubbins for the heavy converters (specialty pieces usually 1 per kit) and give too many gubbins for players who don't care. I think that these would be best moved onto a "conversion sprue" and let modellers buy as many as they want. Right now, the only ways to stock enough parts for conversions is 1: Trade for the sought after bits... (Good luck! They are sought after!) 2. Try your luck with a bits reseller... 3. Buy kits as necessary to get the parts!!!! It took me ages to get enough studded shoulders to complete my MKVI squads. In 4th ed... the only way to get a second assault cannon was pretty much to buy a terminator kit. Nobody I knew had one for trade because everyone used them! Need to trade for thunderhammers? Out of luck... everyone uses their thunderhammers.
I posted a few years ago that GW could have easily controlled prices by selling base kits and conversion kits separately. This could have the bonus of making the base kit cheaper than it is now, but the combined kit more expensive than it is now. e.g. buy a rhino, and then buy an "artillery upgrade" which comes with the whirlwind and vindicator sprues. It would also break the expensive purchases into separate chunks re-enabling impulse buying.
Those skitarii walkers... Kind of wanted to buy. The new Talos? Kind of wanted to buy. The price point stops any impulse buying right in its tracks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 13:15:04
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Posts with Authority
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Sidstyler wrote:
But it's five whole squid! Do you know how much fried calamari you can make with that?
You obviously missed the Tyranid infiltrator.... those 5 Squid are the unit....
The Auld Grump
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Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 13:54:29
Subject: Re:GW price increase June 1
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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As always, my problem is twofold: 1) The rules for 40k are, as far as gaming rules go, pretty bad. There's a lot of unclear things (see YMDC) and lots of "RAI vs. RAW" arguments that all but require deciding before the game how to handle things. This in itself isn't bad as it does allow creativity (I play Warmachine and I sometimes do lament how things that should work a certain way don't because reasons), but not when the rules are $85 and a Codex (assuming you don't buy the supplements and extras) is $50; that's a lot of money for rules that need to be "interpreted" and can differ from game to game depending on how your opponent interprets it, and cause conflicts if I feel that the rule means X and my opponent feels the rule means Y. 2) I played during the end of 2nd edition and the start of 3rd edition, so I've seen the game grow from being roughly company level to what it is now, while prices have skyrocketed. This is probably the worst part because you need a lot and it costs a lot, so you are double-dipping (compare to many historical games where if you need a lot the figures are cheap, or smaller games where you don't need a lot and the figures are more expensive) which just feels like you're being taken advantage of. GW doesn't help with their lousy boxing schemes such as putting 5 models in a box, providing extra crap that won't get used but making you buy a second box to get the all the parts you want (e.g. 4 of the same heavy weapon for a Devastator squad) or making it very costly to field a full unit (e..g Assault Marines, Sternguard) while at the same time the rules making it so you want to field that full unit by making the half unit extremely lackluster. Again, from a playing perspective that makes you feel like you're getting cheated, because while a collector (for example Talys or jah, not to single them out) might be okay with 5 Assault Marines they can customize, but a gamer wants the most bang for their buck and usually that's 10 with specific options that often aren't provided in one box deliberately to get you to buy multiple boxes. Again, if the boxes were reasonably priced this wouldn't be as big a deal but at the price point they are, it feels like robbery. $41 for a box of Space Marines isn't that terrible, but when I realize that I want 10 and the box only has 5, now I have to spend $82 because reasons. That's harder to swallow. That's always been my issue. It's the nickle and diming and deliberately not including options to get you to buy another box that pisses me off because it inflates the cost of already-expensive figures for no reason other than they can get away with doing it. If I wanted a fluffy Space Marine army, it would probably cost twice as much as it should because of that kind of gak. I don't deny that I might enjoy 40k, but it's not worth putting that much money into it on the change I might and still knowing that the company treats me like a rube.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/01 13:59:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 14:57:35
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Dakka Veteran
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Talys wrote:Jehan-reznor wrote:Talys and jah-joshua yes we know you don't mind the prices, and it that it is great value to you.
But the fact of the matter, the amount of people that consider it great value is shrinking, with so many other kickstarter and game systems (Start Wars Armada and x-wing, imperial assault will surely get an upswing after the movie release in December). The gaming world stage is changing, If GW doesn't change their modus operandi others will swing in and claim dominance.
I'm happy that people find other games entertaining, I really am. I am likewise happy for people who enjoy golf and baseball, despite that I can't stand either, and I hope their sports and games that I have no interest in thrive. Yet, some people have a venomous attitude towards GW, when their only crime is that they have a different vision of what a product and game should be (for example, a playable model collection, rather than a competitive tabletop sport).
It seems some people don't understand how anyone could possibly enjoy 40k as a game or 40k modelling as a hobby, or feel that 40k miniatures, despite their high price, are still the nest value in collectible scifi armies. You know, things that are an opinion and a matter of personal taste.
But the part that gets me the most is that some people like to argue GW and their products suck and yet they complain that GW's prices are way too high. I find this duality hilarious, because if you believe this, what does it matter how cheap or expensive their product is, if it sucks? I mean, I wouldn't play a bad video game regardless of price, so why would I spend a zillion hours on a hobby I didn't like?
I likewise don't understand the attraction to bad free rules, or even GOOD free rules. I mean, I want the company to succeed, and if they just write rules for free, where is the revenue derived from? What is the incentive to write new stuff, draw new pretty diagrams, and paint new artwork? To me, half the codex of fluff is half the value of the book; I get it that some people think that half is wasted paper. So they should either suck it up, or play another game!
At least I'm defending something I like. I can't imagine bothering to give my time to debate a subject on a game I didn't like or didn't feel or would never return to. If I have no intention of playing or collecting 40k, what do I care what robot pope costs, or if the latest codex is printed in 2 years or 10, or whether a $200 limited edition book is insane? Certainly, I could never imagine in my wildest dreams coming back *every week* on every new release to criticize the same company
H.B.M.C. wrote: Talys wrote:Though no doubt it is only in the alternate reality pocket dimension in which I live.
Admitting you live in an alternate dimension is the first step towards phasing back into reality.
I was just stating observable science -- just as the earth is a spheroid , I exist in a special transdimensional reality.  It must be so, because how else is it that our group keeps on having a blast playing 40k year after year? To me, 40k has always been the ultimate nerd pastime, lol.
While I disagree with you on a number of your ideas/opinions - aloe me to comment on just one of them. Spartan games had every single one of their core game rules - as well as their army specific rules free. They have been for some time. While they may not get revenue from those rules/army downloads - they constantly revise and tweak them in order to balance the game. I dare say their firestorm games are THE MOST balanced games out there rivaling dropzone commander. In fact there was a large recent update to the rules to include a new batch of guys they put out - and we are expecting even more to be added as they add more to there games with very little power creep.
I am not going to say that I hate 40k. I have a sizable custom space marine army that is all in heresy army and vehicles. Be that as it may - I have not played in a long time due to the price increase and the overwhelming power creep of certain items.
It's a little unfair to judge a company if they give out free things and then say that they will have no motivation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 15:03:38
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Preacher of the Emperor
At a Place, Making Dolls Great Again
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Make Dolls Great Again
Clover/Trump 2016
For the United Shelves of America! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 15:09:15
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon
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I can understand raising the paint and sprays prices if GW's vendor(s) raised their costs. GW is at the mercy of their vendor... GW's vendor may even have them over a barrel. I can't imagine paint being something that GW can just shop around for. It's more likely that we should be pissed at GW's vendor and not GW.
The tools I speculate went up in price because they're not selling and GW is predicting a loss on them. Stock items are taxable assets (here in NA anyway). They can try to recoup this potential loss by increasing the price a little albeit at the cost of moving less product, but I speculate that the whole reason they're not selling is because the price point was too damn high to begin with. I'm betting they've shot themselves in the foot with this one. Additionally, they're destroying any future potential for re-releasing updated tools. If they've established a product to have a list price of $X then re-release the same item with a significantly cheaper price will give the impression that the newer version is poor quality.
As for the the Aegis line, I speculate that the mold needed replaced and those things aren't cheap. Lets face it, the Aegis line was one hell of a popular kit. The same could be true for the original RoBG.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 15:22:07
Subject: Re:GW price increase June 1
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Been Around the Block
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You know I've been thinking about this more and more with GW prices, other games, over the years and prices of things in general. I will 100% claim that GW prices in general are high, and there is some cases where their prices for kits like witch elves and certain other things are totally absurd too.
I've also been around since GW good old days that is the mid 80s and early 90s, and I gotta say looking back outside of those special models that had character, stuff like jes goodwin and marauder empire and dwarves, there is a lot of stuff that is total trash vs today too. There is quite a few minis I can look back at that retain high quality and charm, but there is many which just do not hold up even if some have style to them, I think this is where GW really shines today, we are at a point where their multi part plastic kits that are CAD designed are imo better than metal.
One thing about metal was back then, it surpassed plastic but today that is not so much the case other than a few failcast sculpts. There is so much bling in kits that when painted up to a mid or high standard you would be hard pressed to tell the difference anyway. Secondly there is the fact that while GW's quality control has obviously dropped ( not just fc but metal and plastic over the years ) the chance for miscasts with plastic is far rarer then what I have personally experienced with metal and what exists with fc.
Looking at many different miniature companies since the 90s, I will also say and this really has nothing to do with love or fanboyism with GW, it's just my personal feelings...that nobody has really come close to fb and 40k for style and background and overall armies. I'm fully aware and have been for years of other mini games and every time I see people talking about them or plugging them ( usually because said people lack funds to stick with GW modern prices and yes I understand this too ) time and again the instant first impression I have is "these all look the same boring generic sci fi minis that anyone could think up", really I have yet to see a single sci fi mini game that would cause me to be swayed to spend even 100 bucks for an entire army they look that boring and generic to me.
I almost...almost bought one of those dwarf lord dungeon whatever games but that was only because I missed selling my advanced heroquest and warhammer quest boxes, then I looked at the minis and they were terrible. I think perhaps reaper dark heaven was the only other line of minis I ever purchased that I thought were worth painting and quality figures. Of course we are living in times of worldwide economy and again I fully understand there is many people who cannot afford GW and their increasing prices, and I have many negative opinions over their prices in terms of getting new people into their games, it's not that easy looking back at their 80s and 90s prices, then again looking at their kits I think they are outstanding today, my two major gripes though is that they need to tone down some of the "toy" looking weird kits that are newer IE stuff like the helldrake and also while I love the detail they can cram on plastic, there is stuff that should be considered more like if they are going to use such fine detail plastic make better contact joints so those tiny bits have more stability, an example would be many of the blood drops hanging on the blood angels and chains that we see on the bloodthirster and the undead legion monster guys those, which is possibly worse than the bloodthirsters contact points.
Don't get me wrong here either I fully sympathize with many who want to have multiple armies and the new stuff, and the increasing prices makes this really tough especially when building competitive lists. I also have to look at some of it and say how many really are building these slowly ? I don't think the average person really goes out and blows 500-800 on a full 2000-3000 point army, I think building a 500-1000 point army is still very doable for most people that can afford general hobbies today like video games and so on, and with wise shopping there is other factors like buying bits it you hunt around and buying these in stages or extra bodies and so on to make use of extra bits we have, I've been doing that recently and it's working out quite well.
Looking at their prices for anyone getting into GW on a serious level, it's quite brutal that much is true when you factor in paints a starter or a rulebook, army book and so on it's yea....something needs to be done there. I actually think GW will go bankrupt before they raise prices so high that only die hards are left, for example if a box of tactical marines was 100 I think even the die hards would drop too, 50 I think is high but still reasonable, 70+ I would have serious problems. However you can be sure almost any starter box is going to have marines and there will be tons of them dirt cheap on ebay, with the quality of their starter boxes these days I think it's totally fine to start armies from these, they sure ain't nothing like 2nd ed starter marines those things were horrible, and their plastics will continue to get better and better so there is options still.
Guys I used to sell about 1500 usd steady on ebay in the good old days selling junk now I'm lucky to sell 150-200 a month for extra income, but it still mostly supports my GW addiction and I'm far from rich but even 60-80 a month spending money GW is still doable, I was looking at video games and I know why I skipped ps3 and onward...the prices even there are getting higher and higher, I ain't spending 350-450 on a console and then 60 on a game plus tax. Hell I could continue to build mid range pc's every 5-6 years and download all the games that will play much nicer more options on a pc than on a console today, long gone are the days of mainstream consoles costing 150-200 after 2 years. Then I look at other hobbies or like parents who would want to get their kids into lego or hockey and stuff, EVERYTHING is really expensive and we are in a crappy economy so there is this to factor into also. Don't even get me started on food prices...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 15:29:00
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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oni wrote:The tools I speculate went up in price because they're not selling and GW is predicting a loss on them. Stock items are taxable assets (here in NA anyway). They can try to recoup this potential loss by increasing the price a little albeit at the cost of moving less product, but I speculate that the whole reason they're not selling is because the price point was too damn high to begin with. I'm betting they've shot themselves in the foot with this one. Additionally, they're destroying any future potential for re-releasing updated tools. If they've established a product to have a list price of $X then re-release the same item with a significantly cheaper price will give the impression that the newer version is poor quality.
The items need to be seen as value-added. None of the posters here are claiming that GW is producing stuff of poor quality... only that it fails in terms of the feeling of "value". Remember when White Dwarf used to come with preview models? They could package the tools together with a knick-knack to be used as an objective. It could be an antenna, wizard familiar, scenic base insert or something. Something to tie it back into the game-world and set it apart from the hardware store variety other than the exorbitant price.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 17:29:42
Subject: GW price increase June 1
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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon
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keezus wrote: oni wrote:The tools I speculate went up in price because they're not selling and GW is predicting a loss on them. Stock items are taxable assets (here in NA anyway). They can try to recoup this potential loss by increasing the price a little albeit at the cost of moving less product, but I speculate that the whole reason they're not selling is because the price point was too damn high to begin with. I'm betting they've shot themselves in the foot with this one. Additionally, they're destroying any future potential for re-releasing updated tools. If they've established a product to have a list price of $X then re-release the same item with a significantly cheaper price will give the impression that the newer version is poor quality.
The items need to be seen as value-added. None of the posters here are claiming that GW is producing stuff of poor quality... only that it fails in terms of the feeling of "value". Remember when White Dwarf used to come with preview models? They could package the tools together with a knick-knack to be used as an objective. It could be an antenna, wizard familiar, scenic base insert or something. Something to tie it back into the game-world and set it apart from the hardware store variety other than the exorbitant price.
I can get behind that idea. The Hobby Starter Set is nice and has added value ( http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Citadel-Hobby-Starter-Set-US), but I'm not going to purchase this set every time I need some new clippers. It's kind of like cable companies bundling tv+phone+internet. I don't want the phone, but I must have to have it because it's bundled and there to artificially inflate the price. I suppose the question is; what value can be added to such disgustingly over priced items that would make them tempting to purchase not once, but again and again?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 17:30:57
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