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Well lets take a look at our fast attack... spore mines... yup. Not really a unit. Just kind of where they stuck them.

Sky slashers... You mean flying rippers. Should just be an upgrade to rippers, not a different unit in a different slot that only exists to sell FW models.

Moving the tyrgon and trygon prime puts usable things in the fast attack. Plus trygons are by the fluuf big ravenors. Also, they would be fast attack because of their tunnels providing fast placement for all of reserves.


The answer to venoms is not to weaken them but to provide us with other tools. They are the vehicle to foot slog with. We have builds that don't rely on foot slogging and thats when they get swapped out for other things.

MMORPGs are notorious for this kind of balancing. Something is being relied on, make it undesirable.

The actual solution is to find out why it's being relied on and address that issue. If it even IS an issue. SM have high saves and diverse weapons. Nicrons are the most durable. Nids have cover. Cover from bubble wrapping their units. Cover from shrouded. Cover. It's the thing we have to stick around. It's not an issue that we use it to the max. It's what we have instead of maximum ranged attacks and high armor. Something that boosts that cover or provides it in the open ground is a no brainer.

Spoletta wrote:I know that what i suggested is quite punishing for the venoms, but it is intended.
Nids right now depend on flyrants and venoms, what we are trying to do right now is eliminate that dependency.
That means nerfing Flyrants, buffing pretty much the whole codex and in the end being able to nerf the venoms without screwing the army.
Let's face it, venoms are OP. For what they bring in terms of strength multiplier they are too much of a bargain. If the codex would be modified with all the buffs we are suggesting here but without at the same time nerfing the one model that allowed such a mess of an army to be semi competitive then we are getting close to Newdar.
All the points cost have been revised, we can now afford to pay more for our shroud bubble or just accept our losses.

Another point, do we need to take a look at the nid powers? They don't need much, i would just propose the following:

Dominion increases SiTW range
The Horror add "The target unit cannot fire overwatch"
Psychic shriek increase nova to 9"
Maybe bring Warp lance to AP1, makes it a bit more reliable form of AV.

I'm not convinced the Venom is too good for its cost. It is very true that Nids were dependent on Flyrants and Venomthropes(usually Malanthrope) for cover. I'm not convinced Venomthropes need to be dropped down, I did when I thought they had a 4+AS, but with a 5+ they are easily killed by anthing with ignores cover, and even with a 2+ or 3+ cover save its 2 T4 wounds, easily accomplished.

IMO what is important is balancing the rest of the codex while bringing Flyrants down a peg. I feel 4+AS with Wings is a good way to accomplish that.

As for bringing the rest of the dex up, we've got cheaper upgrades and lower base cost MCs to help with that.

Also, we have to keep in mind the goal balance point. We don't need nids to keep up with the current competetive Meta, as they no longer would exist under this Errata, the balance point is quite a bit lower.

Lance845 wrote:Well lets take a look at our fast attack... spore mines... yup. Not really a unit. Just kind of where they stuck them.

Sky slashers... You mean flying rippers. Should just be an upgrade to rippers, not a different unit in a different slot that only exists to sell FW models.

Moving the tyrgon and trygon prime puts usable things in the fast attack. Plus trygons are by the fluuf big ravenors. Also, they would be fast attack because of their tunnels providing fast placement for all of reserves.


The answer to venoms is not to weaken them but to provide us with other tools. They are the vehicle to foot slog with. We have builds that don't rely on foot slogging and thats when they get swapped out for other things.

MMORPGs are notorious for this kind of balancing. Something is being relied on, make it undesirable.

The actual solution is to find out why it's being relied on and address that issue. If it even IS an issue. SM have high saves and diverse weapons. Nicrons are the most durable. Nids have cover. Cover from bubble wrapping their units. Cover from shrouded. Cover. It's the thing we have to stick around. It's not an issue that we use it to the max. It's what we have instead of maximum ranged attacks and high armor. Something that boosts that cover or provides it in the open ground is a no brainer.

I'm still not convinced Venomthropes are as auto take as you believe they are, and I've already done quite a bit to make other units desirable.

Having units that could be merely upgrades is not a new thing, and I was trying to keep the internal structure of the codex the same. Only one errata, BA, moved a unit to a different slot.

I understand Trygons are giang Ravagers, but they are also Ground MCs, which is basically HQ and Heavy support for all armies. Sure, the Riptide a Jetpack MC is Elite, and I could definitely argue that it should be bumped to Heavy Support instead.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
6-4-15 Change To

Hive Tyrant: 120pts
May take any of the following.... Wings: 80pts
*A Hive Tyrant with Wings has its Armor Save reduced to a 4+.

Ok if you all think that the venoms are good as they are then ok.

One thing though we can agree on, can we rule out in some way the abomination that is the venom in a box?

First, I agree on Trygons as FA, and possibly adding a rule similar to the Skitaari dunestrider rule (+3" to all movement).

Second, a flyrant with a 4+ is just free "slay the warlord" to anyone with a quad gun. If space marines can have a 2+/3++ t5 biker captain/CM who also makes bikers trips, for the same cost pre-weapons as a 4+ flyrant, that is imbalance to me. Also, considering that you've been handing flakk missiles to other armies like candy this feels like a ham-fisted solution to the tyranids one-trick-pony.

Third thing to consider is to actually give a benefit to synapse besides " your army won't commit seppukku". It used to give EW to everything in range. My thought, rather than free army wide EW would be to give them something similar to what GMC have, so instead of losing all of your warriors to any battle cannon fired at them, you lose 1/3, with most taking a would or two.

Idea #4 would be to return GMC status to trygons and make them LoW, with a slight stat buff. Something like WS4 BS3 S8 T8 W6 I5 A6 Sv3+ Ld10. Give bio pulse haywire. 300ish for standard, 25pts to upgrade to Prime. Replace the gakky talons with something, maybe shred on them. Add in a upgrade 'hyper-cardio systems' that actually let it run d6" and charge, as long as it didn't shoot they turn.

StarHunter25 wrote:
First, I agree on Trygons as FA, and possibly adding a rule similar to the Skitaari dunestrider rule (+3" to all movement).

Second, a flyrant with a 4+ is just free "slay the warlord" to anyone with a quad gun. If space marines can have a 2+/3++ t5 biker captain/CM who also makes bikers trips, for the same cost pre-weapons as a 4+ flyrant, that is imbalance to me. Also, considering that you've been handing flakk missiles to other armies like candy this feels like a ham-fisted solution to the tyranids one-trick-pony.

Third thing to consider is to actually give a benefit to synapse besides " your army won't commit seppukku". It used to give EW to everything in range. My thought, rather than free army wide EW would be to give them something similar to what GMC have, so instead of losing all of your warriors to any battle cannon fired at them, you lose 1/3, with most taking a would or two.

Idea #4 would be to return GMC status to trygons and make them LoW, with a slight stat buff. Something like WS4 BS3 S8 T8 W6 I5 A6 Sv3+ Ld10. Give bio pulse haywire. 300ish for standard, 25pts to upgrade to Prime. Replace the gakky talons with something, maybe shred on them. Add in a upgrade 'hyper-cardio systems' that actually let it run d6" and charge, as long as it didn't shoot they turn.

That would be totally overpowered.

 Zagman wrote:
I do disagree about Flyrant durability. A T6 3+AS FMC with 4W is incredibly durable and when spammed results in something most opponents cannot address. Lowing durability is a perfectly acceptable way of balancing a model's damage output. They do bring a lot of destruction, but if opponents have a more viable way to make them Jink or damage them that destruction is balanced out by a reduced longevity or temporarily reduced efficiency. The Tyrant may be one of the more survivable models the Nids had, hell it was the most, and one of the most damaging as well. Now, Nids have access to a myriad of cheaper ground MCs, as well as having other models balanced more appropriately. I don't mind if the Flyrant can dish out damage, but when they can be spammed and dish out damage while being ridiculously durable thanks to being a T6 FMC with a 3+, that is what hurts. I don't mind the damage out put of a Dakkafex, because being a ground MC the Dakkafex can be countered and killed. Its the durability of the Flyrant that causes lots of issues and why spamming them to overwhelm your opponents ability to deal Skyfire damage is IMO the most problematic, not that they have good damage output for cost.

I think a lot of the flyrant's perceived durability comes from lots of armies just not taking any form of anti-air anymore. In all of the more recent batreps I've seen that have flyrants in them, the other army never has any form of anti-air. I also rarely see anyone take things like Stormravens that cost the same number of points, and should be able to take out a flyrant (without 2+ cover) on the turn they arrive. Also things like Onager Dunecrawlers taken in a group of three, two of them with the icarus array should be able to handle flyrants pretty easily, though again I haven't seen any batreps with this combination around yet.

Another thing to note is that despite triple flyrants being all over the LVO (I think it was?) I didn't hear much talk of them winning a disproportionate amount of games.

Spoletta wrote:Ok if you all think that the venoms are good as they are then ok.

One thing though we can agree on, can we rule out in some way the abomination that is the venom in a box?

Yeah, the Venomthrope in a Bastion is a PITA, but it is completely immobile. Its just like status effects from ICs measured from Vehicles as well. Don't know the best way to address this or if I need to at all. Is castled Nids really that big of an issue? Its not like they are putting and protecting huge ranged threats in there. I guess I've not run into this on the table. Sure its a bigger bubble, but its imobile, and how much can Nids castle around it? Its effective for what, 1-2 turns?

StarHunter25 wrote:First, I agree on Trygons as FA, and possibly adding a rule similar to the Skitaari dunestrider rule (+3" to all movement).

Second, a flyrant with a 4+ is just free "slay the warlord" to anyone with a quad gun. If space marines can have a 2+/3++ t5 biker captain/CM who also makes bikers trips, for the same cost pre-weapons as a 4+ flyrant, that is imbalance to me. Also, considering that you've been handing flakk missiles to other armies like candy this feels like a ham-fisted solution to the tyranids one-trick-pony.

Third thing to consider is to actually give a benefit to synapse besides " your army won't commit seppukku". It used to give EW to everything in range. My thought, rather than free army wide EW would be to give them something similar to what GMC have, so instead of losing all of your warriors to any battle cannon fired at them, you lose 1/3, with most taking a would or two.

Idea #4 would be to return GMC status to trygons and make them LoW, with a slight stat buff. Something like WS4 BS3 S8 T8 W6 I5 A6 Sv3+ Ld10. Give bio pulse haywire. 300ish for standard, 25pts to upgrade to Prime. Replace the gakky talons with something, maybe shred on them. Add in a upgrade 'hyper-cardio systems' that actually let it run d6" and charge, as long as it didn't shoot they turn.

The Trygon and Trygon Prime as FA wouldn't be terrible. I don't know if I want to that much FOC Slot swapping. If was doing a full rewrite they would be there along with condensed profiles for Shrikes and Rippers, etc.

I am not willing to make the Trygon a GMC, that is a major rewrite. I started by making the Wraithknight an MC, but was quickly convinced to move it back and just balance it as is. For the Trygons, fixing their tunnel really went a long way towards utilty and base cost they aren't bad now. I'd rather just leave them. Its 7th, access to dual CAD or formations isn't hard, FOC slot is less problematic as before.

You missed the Errata and where I mentioned that FMCs can now deploy in Swooping mode, so that is not a free Slay the Warlord. Granted, while Swooping it can always be seen. Yes, SM can put down a tough beatstick IC, but it isn't T6, and isntly a FMC requireing 6s to hit. That is the big difference. Quad Gun is now 4*.888*.666 = 2.4Wounds, 1.2 Wounds after 4+ Jink. That actually seems pretty balanced now.

I didn't not give Flakk missile out like candy, they are still a cost. And each shot, whcih is costly to come by, at BS4 is .44 Wounds, .22 Wounds if the Tyrant Jinks. What I have done is make the Hive Tyrant balanced. It still isn't an easy Slay the Warlord unless your opponent really put a lot into Skyfire. PentaRant is now more balanced. Also, don't forget your Flyrant has access to more powers, it could be rolling out Biomancy now, etc. or be rocking FNP. If you want a truly durable Tyrand you've got a Walkrant(at a very reasonalbe price) with full Tyrant Guard near a Venomthrope. There is now a price for the Flyrant, before it was one of the strongest units in the game, and putting five on the table overloaded anyone's AA capabilities. Now, at 4+AS they are significantly more balanced. DPs also got the same treatment, winds and Warpforged/PA are now mutually exllusive so standard AA weapons now can actually hurt FMCs barring the Blood Thirster.

Spoletta wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
First, I agree on Trygons as FA, and possibly adding a rule similar to the Skitaari dunestrider rule (+3" to all movement).

Second, a flyrant with a 4+ is just free "slay the warlord" to anyone with a quad gun. If space marines can have a 2+/3++ t5 biker captain/CM who also makes bikers trips, for the same cost pre-weapons as a 4+ flyrant, that is imbalance to me. Also, considering that you've been handing flakk missiles to other armies like candy this feels like a ham-fisted solution to the tyranids one-trick-pony.

Third thing to consider is to actually give a benefit to synapse besides " your army won't commit seppukku". It used to give EW to everything in range. My thought, rather than free army wide EW would be to give them something similar to what GMC have, so instead of losing all of your warriors to any battle cannon fired at them, you lose 1/3, with most taking a would or two.

Idea #4 would be to return GMC status to trygons and make them LoW, with a slight stat buff. Something like WS4 BS3 S8 T8 W6 I5 A6 Sv3+ Ld10. Give bio pulse haywire. 300ish for standard, 25pts to upgrade to Prime. Replace the gakky talons with something, maybe shred on them. Add in a upgrade 'hyper-cardio systems' that actually let it run d6" and charge, as long as it didn't shoot they turn.

That would be totally overpowered.

I agree, that GMC would be a nightmare to balance. Moving things to GMC is out of the question IMO.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
I do disagree about Flyrant durability. A T6 3+AS FMC with 4W is incredibly durable and when spammed results in something most opponents cannot address. Lowing durability is a perfectly acceptable way of balancing a model's damage output. They do bring a lot of destruction, but if opponents have a more viable way to make them Jink or damage them that destruction is balanced out by a reduced longevity or temporarily reduced efficiency. The Tyrant may be one of the more survivable models the Nids had, hell it was the most, and one of the most damaging as well. Now, Nids have access to a myriad of cheaper ground MCs, as well as having other models balanced more appropriately. I don't mind if the Flyrant can dish out damage, but when they can be spammed and dish out damage while being ridiculously durable thanks to being a T6 FMC with a 3+, that is what hurts. I don't mind the damage out put of a Dakkafex, because being a ground MC the Dakkafex can be countered and killed. Its the durability of the Flyrant that causes lots of issues and why spamming them to overwhelm your opponents ability to deal Skyfire damage is IMO the most problematic, not that they have good damage output for cost.

I think a lot of the flyrant's perceived durability comes from lots of armies just not taking any form of anti-air anymore. In all of the more recent batreps I've seen that have flyrants in them, the other army never has any form of anti-air. I also rarely see anyone take things like Stormravens that cost the same number of points, and should be able to take out a flyrant (without 2+ cover) on the turn they arrive. Also things like Onager Dunecrawlers taken in a group of three, two of them with the icarus array should be able to handle flyrants pretty easily, though again I haven't seen any batreps with this combination around yet.

I agree somewhat. A big problem is many armies did not have any form of cost effctive AA. Even a Quadgun at BS4 was only .8Wounds/Turn against a Flyrant. To over the course of a game it would kill 1, what about the other 4? Well, just how much AA would it take. With a 3+ it would take 27 S7 AP4 Skyfire Missiles. Now a Quadgun does 2.4 Wounds, 1.2 if the Flyrant Jinks. Now it takes 9 BS4 S7 AP4 Skyfire Missiles to kill a Flyrant, 18 BS4 shots if the Flyrant Jinks. AA now has a reasonable chance to hurt a Flyrant or make it Jink. A Jinking Flyrant really does take down its very good, durable, and mobile firepower quite well.

As it stood, no army could really field enough AA to take out more than one for two Flyrants. And the cost of fielding that much AA nuetered them against other armies.

The Hive Tyrant wasn't very durable on the ground, but in the air it was one of the more durable models in the game, and it had great firepower and was a Psyker.

And its not like a Nids player won't target the AA that can hurt Flyrants. The lack of AA in most armies was a sing of how horribly overcosted or underperforming AA was. Who fields Flakk missiles when most FMCs havea 4+AS? Etc.


Triple Flyrants may not have at BAO, but when these Errata are factored in likely all of those competetiive lists would either not have been possible or would have costed signicantly more, or had their capabilities decreased. In that environment, where everything else at the top comes down, unmodified Flyrants jump up as kind of the hill. Tripple Flyrants may not have stomped the BAO, but against Errated armies they will be problematic. AT 4+ AS, they will still be a very good unit, but signicantly more balanced. Not to mention the rest of the Nid codex got better to support them so its not Codex: Flyrant.

 Zagman wrote:

I agree somewhat. A big problem is many armies did not have any form of cost effctive AA. Even a Quadgun at BS4 was only .8Wounds/Turn against a Flyrant. To over the course of a game it would kill 1, what about the other 4? Well, just how much AA would it take. With a 3+ it would take 27 S7 AP4 Skyfire Missiles. Now a Quadgun does 2.4 Wounds, 1.2 if the Flyrant Jinks. Now it takes 9 BS4 S7 AP4 Skyfire Missiles to kill a Flyrant, 18 BS4 shots if the Flyrant Jinks. AA now has a reasonable chance to hurt a Flyrant or make it Jink. A Jinking Flyrant really does take down its very good, durable, and mobile firepower quite well.

As it stood, no army could really field enough AA to take out more than one for two Flyrants. And the cost of fielding that much AA nuetered them against other armies.

The Hive Tyrant wasn't very durable on the ground, but in the air it was one of the more durable models in the game, and it had great firepower and was a Psyker.

And its not like a Nids player won't target the AA that can hurt Flyrants. The lack of AA in most armies was a sing of how horribly overcosted or underperforming AA was. Who fields Flakk missiles when most FMCs havea 4+AS? Etc.

There's also a few more things to consider though, as hammer and anvil can put a pretty big gap between the 18" range flyrant and the AA that it wants to get at. I completely agree that lots of armies lack adequate AA for things like triple/penta flyrants, cron air, buffed up daemon princes etc. Even nids lack adequate AA if someone decides to not take flyrant lists. But that 4+ armor save vs a dunecrawlers gatling rocket launcher that has Heavy 5, Skyfire, Ignores Cover, and S6 AP4 at 48" range seems pretty terrifying. That's before the dunecrawler shoots its other two weapons. And the dunecrawler costs 125 points...

Edit- Still working on through reading through all the other Errata that you've done Zag, so if I say something derpy or complain about something that's already fixed let me know haha
Edit2 - Just realized after re-reading the BRB errata that all armies would have access to all psychic schools, which also would color my opinion of flyrant durability (I don't think anyone wants to go back to the old iron arm insanely durable flyrants)

A few thoughts from me on the Orks, some opinions and some questions:

- Flash Gitz really need to be out of the Heavy Support slot. I think Elites would be better for them by far. As it is, even with the changes, I couldn't see myself taking them over mek guns or lootas

- I saw that you addressed the cybork body malarky, but I'm wondering what you think about stikkbomb chukkas? As it is, every unit that could go in a transport with that upgrade already has assault grenades...

- It's a small thing, but it always irked me that you couldn't take shootas instead of choppa/slugga on kommandos. Considering their frequent role in my games as cover/objective campers, or outflanking harassers, shootas would be a big boon to the unit, and to me it feels even a bit more thematic (they'z actin more like the beakies, roit?)

Aside from that, I quite like the new mob rule, and most of these rebalancings are pretty alright. Sad to see the bikers get a price hike though...

Cytharai wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

I agree somewhat. A big problem is many armies did not have any form of cost effctive AA. Even a Quadgun at BS4 was only .8Wounds/Turn against a Flyrant. To over the course of a game it would kill 1, what about the other 4? Well, just how much AA would it take. With a 3+ it would take 27 S7 AP4 Skyfire Missiles. Now a Quadgun does 2.4 Wounds, 1.2 if the Flyrant Jinks. Now it takes 9 BS4 S7 AP4 Skyfire Missiles to kill a Flyrant, 18 BS4 shots if the Flyrant Jinks. AA now has a reasonable chance to hurt a Flyrant or make it Jink. A Jinking Flyrant really does take down its very good, durable, and mobile firepower quite well.

As it stood, no army could really field enough AA to take out more than one for two Flyrants. And the cost of fielding that much AA nuetered them against other armies.

The Hive Tyrant wasn't very durable on the ground, but in the air it was one of the more durable models in the game, and it had great firepower and was a Psyker.

And its not like a Nids player won't target the AA that can hurt Flyrants. The lack of AA in most armies was a sing of how horribly overcosted or underperforming AA was. Who fields Flakk missiles when most FMCs havea 4+AS? Etc.

There's also a few more things to consider though, as hammer and anvil can put a pretty big gap between the 18" range flyrant and the AA that it wants to get at. I completely agree that lots of armies lack adequate AA for things like triple/penta flyrants, cron air, buffed up daemon princes etc. Even nids lack adequate AA if someone decides to not take flyrant lists. But that 4+ armor save vs a dunecrawlers gatling rocket launcher that has Heavy 5, Skyfire, Ignores Cover, and S6 AP4 at 48" range seems pretty terrifying. That's before the dunecrawler shoots its other two weapons. And the dunecrawler costs 125 points...

Edit- Still working on through reading through all the other Errata that you've done Zag, so if I say something derpy or complain about something that's already fixed let me know haha
Edit2 - Just realized after re-reading the BRB errata that all armies would have access to all psychic schools, which also would color my opinion of flyrant durability (I don't think anyone wants to go back to the old iron arm insanely durable flyrants)

That unit sounds nasty. I haven't gottena chance to look at the AdMech stuff too much yet and haven't seen them on the table either. But, looking at the Dunecrawler Icarus weapons profiles Heavy 5 is a bit much. But, as it snap shots against anything that is not a Flyer, FMC, and against AV12 Flyers it is virtually worthless with Snap Shot. Honestly, looking at their other options I can't really see that exactly loadout being picked unless the person was tailoring their list to fight Nids. Each Dunecrawler averages 1.6 wounds per turn, meaning even if they did have that loadout, there is still a good chance the Tyranid Player has a chance to silence them. Are they a pretty hard counter yes, but a very specific one we aren't likely to see in the average list. They aren't as bad as Grav Cents vs Wratihknights even as far as hard counters go. Good thing the WalkRant is virtually immune to that unit! I'll look at them closer when I errata AdMech, but IMO that counter isn't likely to see that much table time unless its one unit as dedicated AA. And then the Nid player can just reserve its Flyrants and enter the baord in two of the three deployment types and put the hurt on them, soak one turn of casualties, then take them out the next. Heck a single Paroxysm handles the threat etc.

No worries, its a lot of matieral to go through. But assume, that the most competetivie build, units, and possiblly combinations from every Dex have been taken down a notch, two, or three.

Yes, Flyrants do have access to Biomancy, good thing they only have a 4+AS now. Granted for an army, the Powers of the Hive Mind are still pretty solid.

Jambles wrote:A few thoughts from me on the Orks, some opinions and some questions:

- Flash Gitz really need to be out of the Heavy Support slot. I think Elites would be better for them by far. As it is, even with the changes, I couldn't see myself taking them over mek guns or lootas

- I saw that you addressed the cybork body malarky, but I'm wondering what you think about stikkbomb chukkas? As it is, every unit that could go in a transport with that upgrade already has assault grenades...

- It's a small thing, but it always irked me that you couldn't take shootas instead of choppa/slugga on kommandos. Considering their frequent role in my games as cover/objective campers, or outflanking harassers, shootas would be a big boon to the unit, and to me it feels even a bit more thematic (they'z actin more like the beakies, roit?)

Aside from that, I quite like the new mob rule, and most of these rebalancings are pretty alright. Sad to see the bikers get a price hike though...

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't want to do too much FOC Slot changing if I could avoid it. I think for their cost Flash Gitz are much more balanced against the rest of the dex. I mean compared to Mek Guns that balancing worked both ways. Not striving for perfect, but I feel they are close at that price point.

Didn't think too much about Stikkbob Chukkas, I'll have to give them another once over. Main goal is not to rewrite too much, just alter things like points cost to achieve balance where possible so most things Errated aren't used past the list building stage. Some exception, Cyborg, Boss Pole, Mob Rule, Walker HP. But, I don't want to rewrite an entire codex, I want most reference material in the main book outside of list building to stand if possible.

I mean that would be a nice option for Kommandos, but I don't know if I really want to add that option for them. I've avoided changing what items units have access too where possible. I'm not terribly opposed to the idea, but in the grand scheme of balance it seems pretty minor.

Let me know what you feel I adjusted too far, or not enough. Ideally start from most important to least important. Even addressing the 10% too good units and 10% too bad units accross the board would have a major balancing effect.

I'm pretty sure the Icarus array is the most common loadout for the dunecrawlers at the moment, at the moment it serves as the only anti air you need for the army (48" range for all of its guns). It also has enough dakka to not particularly be worried about skyfire. Each one puts out 8 shots that are at least S6, most being AP4, one shot being AP2. Pop your BS +3 skitarii army-wide boost and you get to re-roll all the 6's since you're now BS 7. Not particularly amazing vs ground units, but for 375 points you basically never have to worry about air units causing you problems.

Not trying to derail on this particular example, it's just the one that sprang to mind. I'm also particularly interested in Nid tweaks cause I hate playing spam/mono build armies, but am wary to lose access to something that actually serves a purpose in its current form. And when not taken in numbers over 2 isn't particularly difficult to deal with.

Will see about playtesting some of these changes though

 Cytharai wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Icarus array is the most common loadout for the dunecrawlers at the moment, at the moment it serves as the only anti air you need for the army (48" range for all of its guns). It also has enough dakka to not particularly be worried about skyfire. Each one puts out 8 shots that are at least S6, most being AP4, one shot being AP2. Pop your BS +3 skitarii army-wide boost and you get to re-roll all the 6's since you're now BS 7. Not particularly amazing vs ground units, but for 375 points you basically never have to worry about air units causing you problems.

Not trying to derail on this particular example, it's just the one that sprang to mind. I'm also particularly interested in Nid tweaks cause I hate playing spam/mono build armies, but am wary to lose access to something that actually serves a purpose in its current form. And when not taken in numbers over 2 isn't particularly difficult to deal with.

Will see about playtesting some of these changes though

Thanks for pointing that out. Like I said, I am not that familiar with the AdMech stuff yet, and I will be balancing them at some point and looking for a lot of input when I do it. Without access to a Drop Pod taxi service I have a feeling that they'll won't require too much work.

They are amazing AA, but I doubt we'd be seeing that many of them in armies and it is one hard counter, one that I have yet to Errata, and by far the best AA unit for cost out of any dex that I am aware of. That one specific hard counter doesn't make Flyrants underpowered, or underdurable. And in regards to the vast majority of the units in the game and available AA for almost all armies a Flyrant with a 4+ is balanced. This may just be a specific example of a hard counter and not indicative of poor balance, like listing Grav Cents as proof that the Wraithknihgt isn't durable enough ie using a hard counter. We are also discounting strategies like deploying in Glide out of LoS, or DSing or entering from Reserves and attempting to Alphastrike their AA. There are options available, even FNP makes a huge difference, 48" isn't the whole table either, just close.

I'll definitely keep it in mind.

If you wouldn't mind, write a couple of lists using the Errata, just just rewrites of existing lists, try and build new ones and let me know what your thoughts are. Look at units you haven't considered, or different strategies, etc.

I appreciate what you are doing here. As GW continues to demonstrate hilarious levels of incompetence when writing rules it is a matter of time before we as players start accepting some fix along these lines. That being said, I have a few minor tweaks. Orks and Tyranids are my main armies, I play at a relatively high level with those armies, I am a prolific player with a wide variety of experience against a wide range of opponents.

*Note* I think most of what you are doing is generally good, and so if I don't mention something you can pretend I mentioned it and said "good job"

 Zagman wrote:
Big Mek
A Big Mek may replace his Slugga with one of the following... Kustom Force Field: 40pts
Mega Armour: 30pts
A Big Mek in Mega Armor may take one of the following.... Kustom Force Field: 40pts

The Teleport Blasta is overcosted. I think it should be 5 points. It is a 12" blast weapon on a BS:2 unit.

 Zagman wrote:
Burna Boyz: 70pts, 14pts/model

Its an improvement, but to run Burna Boyz they need to end up in a Battlewagon. Make the battlewagon a dedicated transport option for Burna Boyz. Also allowing them to either take a Nob or for a Mek to take a boss pole would make them much more usable.

 Zagman wrote:
Trukk
Ramshackle: Replace "Roll a D6 each time a Trukk suffers a penetrating hit. On the roll of a 5 or 6, the Trukk only suffers a glancing hit instead."

Not near enough. Ramshackle is stupid now, and only slightly less stupid as you've modified it. There are lots of approaches to make Ramshackle work. Here are a few ideas I have, I encourage you to pick one, and tweak it to work for you.
1) Ramshackle: If an "Explodes" result is rolled against a Trukk it is reduced to an "Imobilized" result.
2) Ramshackle: A Trukk has a 5++.
3) Ramshackle: When rolling on the Pen table, a Trukk reduces the roll by 2.
4) Ramshackle: Pentrating results against a Trukk instead count as 2 glances, and do not get a roll on the penn table.

 Zagman wrote:
Deffkoptas: 60pts, 30pts/model
May include up to three additional Deffkoptas…30 pts/model

With the changes you have made, there is basically no reason to ever consider taking a Deff Kopta. Right now they work as single unit objective scorers or as a quasi nob biker. By making the min squad size 2, you eliminate the 1st reason, and by fixing the points cost of nob bikers you eliminate the second reason. IF you want to make the min squad size 2, then you've got to fix their leadership. I would make them fearless. If you don't like that, make them leadership 9.

Basically, I think it should be your goal to not make a unit completely nonviable compared to other options in the codex, and your current changes to deffkoptas have that effect. I'm not entirely sure why you think Deffkoptas and Warbuggies need a squad size of 2, but if you make that change Deff Koptas become completely nonviable without some other offsetting change.

 Zagman wrote:
Heavy Support
Unit Composition: 2 Mek Gunz, 4 Gretchin
Mek Gunz: 40pts, 20pts/model
Any Mek Gun can replace its Kannon with one of the following... Zzap Gun: Free; Bubblechukka: Free; Smasha-Gun: Free; Lobba: 5pts; Kustom Mega-Kannon: 10pts; Traktor Kannon: 10pts;

That fixes one aspect of Mek Gunz. But doesn't address other problems with them.
Range: Most mek gunz are 36". They don't really have range to do what they are supposed to do (Long range fire support). Especially when you consider that Gretin are really, really short, and have to be able to draw line of sight to any target to shoot the gun. Upping the Range to 48" would fix this. Alternatively not requiring the Gretchin to draw line of sight would help with this as well, because you have more options for deployment.
Leadership: I almost always run a Mek in my Mek Gunz. I know, crazy right? The problem is I can't take a Mek as a part of a squad of Mek guns, I have to take it as a HQ selection, and that doubles the kill points of my Mek Gun unit. Allow mek gunz to take a Mek or Runt Herd, and you would fix this.

 Zagman wrote:
Flash Gitz: 90pts, 18pts/model

Flash Gitz should be Elites (WTF, GW?).
The biggest problem with flash gitz isn't their points cost, it is the fact that they don't have access to a 4+ armor save. If you reduce the price to 18 points, and give the ability to add 'eavy armor at 4 ppm that works. Alternatively, don't adjust their points, and give them 'eavy armor by default.

 Zagman wrote:
Instinctive Behavior

As long as this remains unchanged, many builds (Tyranid Hoard), and units (TFex) will remain pretty much unviable. It is a rule created to make you feel back for taking those units. I do not think this rule adds anything positive to the game in its current form, and I would either remove it, or rework it dramatically. If you want to rework it this is what I suggest:
Instinctive Behavior - Feed - Must attempt to charge the nearest non-vehicle target.
Instinctive Behavior - Lurk - Cannot charge.
Instinctive Behavior - Hunt - Must Shoot at the nearest target.

It is still a mess because of how poorly GW assigned those roles to units. (Crone is Feed? WTF? Lictor is Lurk? Why?)

 Zagman wrote:
Monsterous Bio-cannons

The Heavy Venom Cannon should be Heavy 3 instead of Blast.
I think you should be able to take two STC's or two HVC's. I don't know why you can't. The net result is a unit build that doesn't fill a clear role in an army.

 Zagman wrote:
Biomorphs

Acid Blood. Do away with the initiative test. 10 points.
Toxin Sacs. the Poison (4+) extends to Devourers

 Zagman wrote:
Rupture Cannon: Change To
Range: 48" Str: 10 AP:3 Heavy 3

Lets think this thing over. I'm not sure the AP is the problem here. I think of the Rupture Cannon as long ranged anti-mech. In its current form it is utterly useless. Nobody would ever take it unless they were trying to nerf themselves. However, tweaking the AP slightly doesn't fix it. Consider the
Barbed Heirodule's guns.
2 x Biocannon S10 AP3 assault: 6.
The Barbed Heirodule is able to provide significant anti-mech because it gets 12 shots. Even though it is only BS:3 like the TFex, it gets 6 times as many shots for a little over twice the price.
I think for 195 points the Rupture Cannon TFex should get this:
S10 AP:- Heavy 6.
There is certainly the argument for adding the AP:3, but I think it is more important to make sure the thing hits more than once per turn, and might even have the chance to pop a rhino.

 Zagman wrote:

Hive Guard Brood: 50pts, 50pt/model
The Unit may take any of the following biomorphs... Toxin Sacs: 2pts/model; Adrenal Glands: 2pts/mod

These guys need more work to make them viable. More BS, More AP, or more shots. Something. Also they should have tank hunter.

 Zagman wrote:
Trygon: 170pts; Trygon Prime: 200pts

Their gun should either be Haywire or plasma (S7 AP2). I get how you are trying to carve them out a role as a monolith / drop pod. But it costs so much to be basically a transport / deployment device. Giving it an ability to contribute to the game in other ways would make sense.

Tyrannocyte
Add "The Tyrannocyte cannot be used to Transport Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures."
May replace all five Deathspitters with one of the following... Five Barbed Stranglers: 50ts; Five Venom Cannons: 50pts

If you are going to make these changes you should also specify that it chooses targets like an MC not a vehicle. Closest unit from the base gets all 5 guns shot at it. Otherwise the BS and VC upgrades a horrifically over priced. I know that many people interpret the rules to be this already, but there are also many that don't.

Maleceptor

This is currently the worst unit available to any codex. The rules for it make it essentially worthless. It is killing itself roughly as fast as it is killing other things, and it is very pricey. The best way to use it is to never attempt its psychic power, and instead only walk it up the table like a zoenthrope with a worse save, and likely no warp blast. If that is what the thing does it should be costed accordingly (65 points). However, I think it would be fine to fix it's psychic power as well. Make it not a psychic power, but instead a normal shooting attack that can be shot 3 times at different targets with the precision shot rule. It would still probably need a points reduction, but at least then it has a purpose

Zoenthrope

Make it generate 2 warp charges per model (Like Seer council) even though it is a brotherhood of psychers. That way units of more than 1 make sense again.

Neurothrope

BS: 9.

ETA, oops, forgot this one:

Hive Tyrant: 120pts
May take any of the following.... Wings: 80pts
*A Hive Tyrant with Wings has its Armor Save reduced to a 4+.

I see what you are trying to do here, but that isn't going to work. There are way, way, way, way too much AP:4 in the game to give Winged Tyrants a 4+ save. I feel like unmodified Flying Hive tyrants are glass cannons already, but if you reduce their armor save it makes them basically unusable at that price point. I don't think you should touch the armor save. But if you feel like you have to, then you need to up it to 6 wounds. Honestly at its current price point it would make more sense for it to be 5 wounds to begin with.

The net result of these proposed changes is that you would never ever see another Flying Hive Tyrant, and much like the Deff Kopta, I think the focus should be on keeping units from becoming completely non-viable.

Can't speak for tyranids, but the above poster knows his gak with regards to Orks.

Adding battlewagons to burna boyz for example, or runtherds to mek guns goes perhaps slightly beyond the scope of your "minimal tweaks" philosophy Zagman, but it is very much the sort of changes that these units need to be worthwhile.

Removing runtherds from guns in particular is a change I was utterly bewildered by.

Wow, thanks for the feedback. It's late and I need sleep, but I'll definitely be looking at these tweaks in the near future and will respond in detail later.


One thing I've been looking at doing for Orks is adding Battlewagons as a Dedicated Transport option for "Elite" Ork units relieving some of the pressure on the Heavy Support slot.

Thoughts?

 Zagman wrote:
Wow, thanks for the feedback. It's late and I need sleep, but I'll definitely be looking at these tweaks in the near future and will respond in detail later.


One thing I've been looking at doing for Orks is adding Battlewagons as a Dedicated Transport option for "Elite" Ork units relieving some of the pressure on the Heavy Support slot.

Thoughts?

I think it is generally a good idea. Its already there for Nobz and MANZ. Burnas need it. Tankbustas could really be helped by it. It makes sense for basically all elites.

I don't know a lot about orks, but i'll try to reply to the nids comments.

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Instinctive Behavior

As long as this remains unchanged, many builds (Tyranid Hoard), and units (TFex) will remain pretty much unviable. It is a rule created to make you feel back for taking those units. I do not think this rule adds anything positive to the game in its current form, and I would either remove it, or rework it dramatically. If you want to rework it this is what I suggest:
Instinctive Behavior - Feed - Must attempt to charge the nearest non-vehicle target.
Instinctive Behavior - Lurk - Cannot charge.
Instinctive Behavior - Hunt - Must Shoot at the nearest target.

It is still a mess because of how poorly GW assigned those roles to units. (Crone is Feed? WTF? Lictor is Lurk? Why?)

True, but with Primes massively reduced in cost and Shrikes/warrior slightly reduced then this is possible. Still the Lictors have no reason to be synapse dependent, neither gameplay nor fluff wise.

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Monsterous Bio-cannons

The Heavy Venom Cannon should be Heavy 3 instead of Blast.
I think you should be able to take two STC's or two HVC's. I don't know why you can't. The net result is a unit build that doesn't fill a clear role in an army.

Agree, but it should be assault 3. It doesn't make any difference, but the nid codex has no heavy weapons. I like to respect codex traits.

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Biomorphs

Acid Blood. Do away with the initiative test. 10 points.
Toxin Sacs. the Poison (4+) extends to Devourers

Acid blood needs some love i'm with you on that.
Toxin sacs are fine, Zag already reduced the cost.

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Rupture Cannon: Change To
Range: 48" Str: 10 AP:3 Heavy 3

Lets think this thing over. I'm not sure the AP is the problem here. I think of the Rupture Cannon as long ranged anti-mech. In its current form it is utterly useless. Nobody would ever take it unless they were trying to nerf themselves. However, tweaking the AP slightly doesn't fix it. Consider the
Barbed Heirodule's guns.
2 x Biocannon S10 AP3 assault: 6.
The Barbed Heirodule is able to provide significant anti-mech because it gets 12 shots. Even though it is only BS:3 like the TFex, it gets 6 times as many shots for a little over twice the price.
I think for 195 points the Rupture Cannon TFex should get this:
S10 AP:- Heavy 6.
There is certainly the argument for adding the AP:3, but I think it is more important to make sure the thing hits more than once per turn, and might even have the chance to pop a rhino.

Zag increased the number of shots to 3 and reduced TFex cost. I'd make it 4 shots, but even with 3 it should be in a much better position.

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Hive Guard Brood: 50pts, 50pt/model
The Unit may take any of the following biomorphs... Toxin Sacs: 2pts/model; Adrenal Glands: 2pts/mod

These guys need more work to make them viable. More BS, More AP, or more shots. Something. Also they should have tank hunter.

BS4 T6 2W 3+ model that fires S8 AP4 Ignore cover ignore LOS is worth 50 points. Theyr big problem is being elites in a nid codex.

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Trygon: 170pts; Trygon Prime: 200pts

Their gun should either be Haywire or plasma (S7 AP2). I get how you are trying to carve them out a role as a monolith / drop pod. But it costs so much to be basically a transport / deployment device. Giving it an ability to contribute to the game in other ways would make sense.

I don't agree. For 170 points you are getting a good package. Nice transport, some shooting and good melee. For 30 points more you get a synapse, a SiTW bubble in the middle of enemy army and more shooting.

tag8833 wrote:

Tyrannocyte
Add "The Tyrannocyte cannot be used to Transport Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures."
May replace all five Deathspitters with one of the following... Five Barbed Stranglers: 50ts; Five Venom Cannons: 50pts

If you are going to make these changes you should also specify that it chooses targets like an MC not a vehicle. Closest unit from the base gets all 5 guns shot at it. Otherwise the BS and VC upgrades a horrifically over priced. I know that many people interpret the rules to be this already, but there are also many that don't.

Would still be overpriced, honestly that's one change i don't understand.

tag8833 wrote:

Maleceptor

This is currently the worst unit available to any codex. The rules for it make it essentially worthless. It is killing itself roughly as fast as it is killing other things, and it is very pricey. The best way to use it is to never attempt its psychic power, and instead only walk it up the table like a zoenthrope with a worse save, and likely no warp blast. If that is what the thing does it should be costed accordingly (65 points). However, I think it would be fine to fix it's psychic power as well. Make it not a psychic power, but instead a normal shooting attack that can be shot 3 times at different targets with the precision shot rule. It would still probably need a points reduction, but at least then it has a purpose

What? We have something called maleceptor? Oh that's right, i think i remember something...

tag8833 wrote:

Zoenthrope

Make it generate 2 warp charges per model (Like Seer council) even though it is a brotherhood of psychers. That way units of more than 1 make sense again.

Not sure Eldar do that in the new codex.

tag8833 wrote:

Neurothrope

BS: 9.

Interesting bit. I like this (maybe 6 though, 9 seems a bit much).

tag8833 wrote:

ETA, oops, forgot this one:

Hive Tyrant: 120pts
May take any of the following.... Wings: 80pts
*A Hive Tyrant with Wings has its Armor Save reduced to a 4+.

I see what you are trying to do here, but that isn't going to work. There are way, way, way, way too much AP:4 in the game to give Winged Tyrants a 4+ save. I feel like unmodified Flying Hive tyrants are glass cannons already, but if you reduce their armor save it makes them basically unusable at that price point. I don't think you should touch the armor save. But if you feel like you have to, then you need to up it to 6 wounds. Honestly at its current price point it would make more sense for it to be 5 wounds to begin with.

The net result of these proposed changes is that you would never ever see another Flying Hive Tyrant, and much like the Deff Kopta, I think the focus should be on keeping units from becoming completely non-viable.

Spoletta wrote:
I don't know a lot about orks, but i'll try to reply to the nids comments.

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Instinctive Behavior

.....

True, but with Primes massively reduced in cost and Shrikes/warrior slightly reduced then this is possible. Still the Lictors have no reason to be synapse dependent, neither gameplay nor fluff wise.

Even if I accept your premise that Tyranid units should generally need babysitters, and if we make the babysitters cheaper, a Tyranid army can be built that includes enough of them. The rule would still need a change. The leadership test is always forgotten in game, and having to roll on a table makes it stupidly unwieldy.

Spoletta wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Rupture Cannon: Change To
Range: 48" Str: 10 AP:3 Heavy 3

....

Zag increased the number of shots to 3 and reduced TFex cost. I'd make it 4 shots, but even with 3 it should be in a much better position.

So it is your position that a 195 point dedicated anti tank unit should generally take 3 turns to kill a rhino?

Spoletta wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Hive Guard Brood: 50pts, 50pt/model
The Unit may take any of the following biomorphs... Toxin Sacs: 2pts/model; Adrenal Glands: 2pts/mod

These guys need more work to make them viable. More BS, More AP, or more shots. Something. Also they should have tank hunter.

BS4 T6 2W 3+ model that fires S8 AP4 Ignore cover ignore LOS is worth 50 points. Theyr big problem is being elites in a nid codex.

So basically you agree that the BS needs a boost and would prefer to boost the BS rather than the AP or number of shots? Sure. Fine. A boost to any of those things coupled with that points reduction is fine.

Spoletta wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Trygon: 170pts; Trygon Prime: 200pts

Their gun should either be Haywire or plasma (S7 AP2). I get how you are trying to carve them out a role as a monolith / drop pod. But it costs so much to be basically a transport / deployment device. Giving it an ability to contribute to the game in other ways would make sense.

I don't agree. For 170 points you are getting a good package. Nice transport, some shooting and good melee. For 30 points more you get a synapse, a SiTW bubble in the middle of enemy army and more shooting.

So I ask myself, "Would I ever take this unit outside a gimmick list" The answer is no. A close combat unit that deep strikes essentially only gets to contribute starting on turn 3, 4, or 5 depending how lucky you roll. Beyond that it isn't that good in CC. Certainly not able to make back its points except in the most generous of situations. Lets say you want to keep this guy as a CC unit that is massively overcosted. The best way to do that is make it so that he always arrives on turn 1.

Spoletta wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Zoenthrope

Make it generate 2 warp charges per model (Like Seer council) even though it is a brotherhood of psychers. That way units of more than 1 make sense again.

Not sure Eldar do that in the new codex.

They do. It is called the Seer council.

Spoletta wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

ETA, oops, forgot this one:

Hive Tyrant: 120pts
May take any of the following.... Wings: 80pts
*A Hive Tyrant with Wings has its Armor Save reduced to a 4+.

I see what you are trying to do here, but that isn't going to work. There are way, way, way, way too much AP:4 in the game to give Winged Tyrants a 4+ save. I feel like unmodified Flying Hive tyrants are glass cannons already, but if you reduce their armor save it makes them basically unusable at that price point. I don't think you should touch the armor save. But if you feel like you have to, then you need to up it to 6 wounds. Honestly at its current price point it would make more sense for it to be 5 wounds to begin with.

The net result of these proposed changes is that you would never ever see another Flying Hive Tyrant, and much like the Deff Kopta, I think the focus should be on keeping units from becoming completely non-viable.

There is no doubt that something must be done to the Flyrant. Either it is 4+ save (like all other FMC) or it is R5 (like all other FMC). If you can make a tournament worthy list by just spamming as much flyrants as possible then there is something wrong.

A few things. 5 Flyrants lists isn't a terribly effective tournament build. I'm a competitive tournament player, and I have never taken more than 3 flyrants, and I have never placed below a 5 flyrant army. It is a stupid build. An unfun build. A rock paper scissors build akin to 5 imperial knights, but it is not a tourney winning build. I think the price hike for the Flyrant, and the price adjustment for the other HQ selections is a good solution. It is overcorrecting making it a 4+ armor save. If you want to weaken it, a better way would be to reduce it to T5. However, if you do that, and keep the price hikes you would rarely see them.

Another option if the goal is to fix army comp through codex FAQ's is to make the Wings a Relic that can only be taken once per army. But Since the flyrant makes up 95% of Tyranid anti-tank, that would mean that you need make the Rupture Cannon TFex, Hive Guard, and the Trygons a viable anti-tank unit. I don't think the end result of your changes should be that Tyranids lose 100% of the time to Rhino rush or Venom spam, or trukk rush or any other meched build.

ETA: Making HVC a Assault 3 gun would make Harpies a useful anti-tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I want to chime in on the Venomthrope discussion as well. The Venom doesn't do what it is supposed to do. It isn't nearly survivable enough to provide support to the Tyranid army beyond deployment. That is why the Malanthropes is taken 100% of the time over the Venomthropes, and at events where Malanthropes aren't allowed Tyranids run exclusively flying circus / null deployment builds. My 1st thought would be to make Venmos T5 and give them a 3+ armor save, and possibly a small points reduction.

If you don't like that suggestion, you might consider making the Venom either an IC or a Character that can be joined to a unit. Think Ork Meks. If you could take the venom in a unit of Gants it would go a long way towards making is a viable unit, and therefore making Walking tyranids a viable build.

tag8833 wrote:
I appreciate what you are doing here. As GW continues to demonstrate hilarious levels of incompetence when writing rules it is a matter of time before we as players start accepting some fix along these lines. That being said, I have a few minor tweaks. Orks and Tyranids are my main armies, I play at a relatively high level with those armies, I am a prolific player with a wide variety of experience against a wide range of opponents.

*Note* I think most of what you are doing is generally good, and so if I don't mention something you can pretend I mentioned it and said "good job"

Thanks, considering you left the vast majority I'll assume you approve of most of the changes.

The Teleport Blasta is overcosted. I think it should be 5 points. It is a 12" blast weapon on a BS:2 unit.
I agree it is overcosted, but certainly not 5pts. Granted it isn't on a poor balaistic skill, but it is S8, AP2, and has ID on a 6. 10-15pts is what I was considering. Honestly just forgot to include it.

Its an improvement, but to run Burna Boyz they need to end up in a Battlewagon. Make the battlewagon a dedicated transport option for Burna Boyz. Also allowing them to either take a Nob or for a Mek to take a boss pole would make them much more usable.
I'm thinking all "Elite" Orks need to have access to Battle Wagons as dedicated Transports, relieve some of the pressure form the Heavy Support Slot.

Not near enough. Ramshackle is stupid now, and only slightly less stupid as you've modified it. There are lots of approaches to make Ramshackle work. Here are a few ideas I have, I encourage you to pick one, and tweak it to work for you.
1) Ramshackle: If an "Explodes" result is rolled against a Trukk it is reduced to an "Imobilized" result.
2) Ramshackle: A Trukk has a 5++.
3) Ramshackle: When rolling on the Pen table, a Trukk reduces the roll by 2.
4) Ramshackle: Pentrating results against a Trukk instead count as 2 glances, and do not get a roll on the penn table.
I simply wanted to make it better, but didn't want to write an entirely new rule. Maybe it should have just been a 4+. I kind of like the old flavorful Ramshacks, but I don't want to add another table and random rolling.

May include up to three additional Deffkoptas…30 pts/model

With the changes you have made, there is basically no reason to ever consider taking a Deff Kopta. Right now they work as single unit objective scorers or as a quasi nob biker. By making the min squad size 2, you eliminate the 1st reason, and by fixing the points cost of nob bikers you eliminate the second reason. IF you want to make the min squad size 2, then you've got to fix their leadership. I would make them fearless. If you don't like that, make them leadership 9.

Basically, I think it should be your goal to not make a unit completely nonviable compared to other options in the codex, and your current changes to deffkoptas have that effect. I'm not entirely sure why you think Deffkoptas and Warbuggies need a squad size of 2, but if you make that change Deff Koptas become completely nonviable without some other offsetting change.
I think we Disagree that the unit is completely nonviable. The goal was to reduce the number of units in game that are fielded at 40pts or less. 60pts for 4W at T5 with a 4+AS Scouting Jetbikes that averages 1.1 S8AP3 hits per turn and are usable as a harassment unit in assault is not bad. IMO the major problem is the Low LD which is a 58% chance to make, but they won't be under 25% so its a 58% chance to regroup. Snap firing doesn't hurt them terrible as they are only BS2 and Twinlinked most of the time. With Scout they usually won't flee off the board with a 3d6" if they do fail Morale. I don't see them as nonviable, convince me that they are.

That fixes one aspect of Mek Gunz. But doesn't address other problems with them.
Range: Most mek gunz are 36". They don't really have range to do what they are supposed to do (Long range fire support). Especially when you consider that Gretin are really, really short, and have to be able to draw line of sight to any target to shoot the gun. Upping the Range to 48" would fix this. Alternatively not requiring the Gretchin to draw line of sight would help with this as well, because you have more options for deployment.
Leadership: I almost always run a Mek in my Mek Gunz. I know, crazy right? The problem is I can't take a Mek as a part of a squad of Mek guns, I have to take it as a HQ selection, and that doubles the kill points of my Mek Gun unit. Allow mek gunz to take a Mek or Runt Herd, and you would fix this.
36" range is still effecting and controll a large portion of the board, even deployed along your board edge, even in Hammer and Anvil they can threaten all but the back 12" of your opponent's zone. Barrage limits the height of the Gretchin as being an issue for most of the guns. Its midly annoying but fixing that is beyond the scope of this Errata. Now, including a Runtherd for 5pts... that may just be doable... P.S. Taking a Mek as the free HQ slot does not double your kill points, its not an IC and joins the unit for all purposes so you've been playing that wrong. Only taking a Big Mek as a HQ slot would count as a KP. Also, check out my Purge the Alien Modificaiton that is in the main Errata, it makes KPs a bit different and much more balanced.

Flash Gitz should be Elites (WTF, GW?).
The biggest problem with flash gitz isn't their points cost, it is the fact that they don't have access to a 4+ armor save. If you reduce the price to 18 points, and give the ability to add 'eavy armor at 4 ppm that works. Alternatively, don't adjust their points, and give them 'eavy armor by default.
Maybe they should be Elites. I'm really trying to keep FOC swaps to a minimum and only if it makes an army function correctly. 18ppm is 18% lower than their original cost of 22ppm, its definitely closer. I could add the Heavy Armor upgrade for 4pts... that wouldn't be terrible.

As long as this remains unchanged, many builds (Tyranid Hoard), and units (TFex) will remain pretty much unviable. It is a rule created to make you feel back for taking those units. I do not think this rule adds anything positive to the game in its current form, and I would either remove it, or rework it dramatically. If you want to rework it this is what I suggest:
Instinctive Behavior - Feed - Must attempt to charge the nearest non-vehicle target.
Instinctive Behavior - Lurk - Cannot charge.
Instinctive Behavior - Hunt - Must Shoot at the nearest target.

It is still a mess because of how poorly GW assigned those roles to units. (Crone is Feed? WTF? Lictor is Lurk? Why?)
I agree that Iinstinctive Behavior isn't great and is annoying to use. But addressing this rule, when IMO, it isn't a major balance problem, is beyond the scope of what I'm trying to do. With better Synapse it should be better. I was considering making it simply...
Feed: Devour
Hunt: Prowl
Lurk: Seek Cover
Just eliminate the the randomly random table of random for each one and make those the default results. Thoughts?


The Heavy Venom Cannon should be Heavy 3 instead of Blast.
I think you should be able to take two STC's or two HVC's. I don't know why you can't. The net result is a unit build that doesn't fill a clear role in an army.
Completely agree, that restriction should be removed.

Acid Blood. Do away with the initiative test. 10 points. Agree
Toxin Sacs. the Poison (4+) extends to Devourers They got cheaper, so no.

Rupture Cannon
Lets think this thing over. I'm not sure the AP is the problem here. I think of the Rupture Cannon as long ranged anti-mech. In its current form it is utterly useless. Nobody would ever take it unless they were trying to nerf themselves. However, tweaking the AP slightly doesn't fix it. Consider the
Barbed Heirodule's guns.
2 x Biocannon S10 AP3 assault: 6.
The Barbed Heirodule is able to provide significant anti-mech because it gets 12 shots. Even though it is only BS:3 like the TFex, it gets 6 times as many shots for a little over twice the price.
I think for 195 points the Rupture Cannon TFex should get this:
S10 AP:- Heavy 6.
There is certainly the argument for adding the AP:3, but I think it is more important to make sure the thing hits more than once per turn, and might even have the chance to pop a rhino.
I already dropped the cost of the TFex, increased its number off shots on the Rupture Cannon by 50%, and dropped its AP to 3. It is now 161% as cost effective per shot and the shots are more effective. And it still 2+AS T6 6W MC that can take anything but a dedicated CC unit in assault.Maybe the upgrade can drop in cost by 10pts, but IMO thats about it.

The Barbed Heirodule is an absolute monster, 12 S10 AP3 Shots is kind of crazy, good thing it on a 565pt? model. For comparison the BH is 47pts/shot while the TFex is now 65pts/shot. 6 Shots at two different targets vs 3 shots at three different targets. And that is 6W at T8 with FNP at a 3+ vs 18W at T6 with a 2+. I'm thinking those aren't terrible comparisons.

Hive Guard
These guys need more work to make them viable. More BS, More AP, or more shots. Something. Also they should have tank hunter.
50pts for 2 S8 shots that don't need line of sight and ignore cover on a durable T6 platform isn't bad. They are costed better than before so balance is better. Their biggest issue is being elite.

Trygon
Their gun should either be Haywire or plasma (S7 AP2). I get how you are trying to carve them out a role as a monolith / drop pod. But it costs so much to be basically a transport / deployment device. Giving it an ability to contribute to the game in other ways would make sense.
170pts for a T6 W6 MC with Fleet and a shooting attack isn't bad at all. It got 20/30pts cheaper and its Subterranean Assault ability now works as it should. Significantly better with these changes.

Tyranocyte
If you are going to make these changes you should also specify that it chooses targets like an MC not a vehicle. Closest unit from the base gets all 5 guns shot at it. Otherwise the BS and VC upgrades a horrifically over priced. I know that many people interpret the rules to be this already, but there are also many that don't.

Yeah, they are a mess, I need to do some work for them. I've read them as can shoot all five at the closest target or it needs to be clarified. I'll probably revert the cost and clarify 45 degree line of sight for each weapon, like vehicle rules for a hull mounted weapon.

Maleceptor

This is currently the worst unit available to any codex. The rules for it make it essentially worthless. It is killing itself roughly as fast as it is killing other things, and it is very pricey. The best way to use it is to never attempt its psychic power, and instead only walk it up the table like a zoenthrope with a worse save, and likely no warp blast. If that is what the thing does it should be costed accordingly (65 points). However, I think it would be fine to fix it's psychic power as well. Make it not a psychic power, but instead a normal shooting attack that can be shot 3 times at different targets with the precision shot rule. It would still probably need a points reduction, but at least then it has a purpose

I'm not even familiar with thier rules... just familiarized myself. I don't quite understand what you are saying here. It is a 5W T6 MC with ML2, an invunerable save, a cool specialist power that it can use multiple times if it wishes, oh and it is a Synapse Creature. I can't tell if you are serious with your 65pt suggestion, it would make it essentially the best unit in the whole game. I mean I value Mastery levels on MCs at 35pts a piece, that is 70pts of its cost right there, esepcially as I opened up Psychic access. Its cost looks good for what it is and what it can do. Yeah, the 4+ hurts a bit, but it is far from the worst unit in any codex, not even close.

Zoenthrope

Make it generate 2 warp charges per model (Like Seer council) even though it is a brotherhood of psychers. That way units of more than 1 make sense again.
I intended for them to generate 1 WC per Zoanthrope like the new Seer Coucil does.

Neurothrope

BS: 9.
Not really familiar with it.

ETA, oops, forgot this one:

Hive Tyrant: 120pts
May take any of the following.... Wings: 80pts
*A Hive Tyrant with Wings has its Armor Save reduced to a 4+.

I see what you are trying to do here, but that isn't going to work. There are way, way, way, way too much AP:4 in the game to give Winged Tyrants a 4+ save. I feel like unmodified Flying Hive tyrants are glass cannons already, but if you reduce their armor save it makes them basically unusable at that price point. I don't think you should touch the armor save. But if you feel like you have to, then you need to up it to 6 wounds. Honestly at its current price point it would make more sense for it to be 5 wounds to begin with.

The net result of these proposed changes is that you would never ever see another Flying Hive Tyrant, and much like the Deff Kopta, I think the focus should be on keeping units from becoming completely non-viable.

I think you need to re-examine the situation. When I decreased the save for Winded DPs and Tyrants I also made it so FMCs can start the game Swooping. That is huge, they are still a very viable unit, hell, they will still be stand outs with increased Psychic access. Sure, they cost 10pts more and have a 4+ AS now and can always be seen while Swooping, but now they can start the game in Swooping mode, so they do not risk being Alphastriked before getting airborne and they have a much wider Psychic access. Considering they were one of the better units int he game, some kind of net nerf was required, just like all the other standout units in the game got and its fair treatment compared to other FMCs.

 Zagman wrote:
Thanks, considering you left the vast majority I'll assume you approve of most of the changes.
Absolutely. good job overall.

The Teleport Blasta is overcosted. I think it should be 5 points. It is a 12" blast weapon on a BS:2 unit.
I agree it is overcosted, but certainly not 5pts. Granted it isn't on a poor balaistic skill, but it is S8, AP2, and has ID on a 6. 10-15pts is what I was considering. Honestly just forgot to include it.
My thinking was that the range makes it threatening to the user as well as a weapon that probably gets shot a total of once per game.

Not near enough. Ramshackle is stupid now, and only slightly less stupid as you've modified it. There are lots of approaches to make Ramshackle work. Here are a few ideas I have, I encourage you to pick one, and tweak it to work for you.
1) Ramshackle: If an "Explodes" result is rolled against a Trukk it is reduced to an "Imobilized" result.
2) Ramshackle: A Trukk has a 5++.
3) Ramshackle: When rolling on the Pen table, a Trukk reduces the roll by 2.
4) Ramshackle: Pentrating results against a Trukk instead count as 2 glances, and do not get a roll on the penn table.
I simply wanted to make it better, but didn't want to write an entirely new rule. Maybe it should have just been a 4+. I kind of like the old flavorful Ramshacks, but I don't want to add another table and random rolling.
I would make it a 2+ if I wanted to solve it that way.

May include up to three additional Deffkoptas…30 pts/model

With the changes you have made, there is basically no reason to ever consider taking a Deff Kopta. Right now they work as single unit objective scorers or as a quasi nob biker. By making the min squad size 2, you eliminate the 1st reason, and by fixing the points cost of nob bikers you eliminate the second reason. IF you want to make the min squad size 2, then you've got to fix their leadership. I would make them fearless. If you don't like that, make them leadership 9.

Basically, I think it should be your goal to not make a unit completely nonviable compared to other options in the codex, and your current changes to deffkoptas have that effect. I'm not entirely sure why you think Deffkoptas and Warbuggies need a squad size of 2, but if you make that change Deff Koptas become completely nonviable without some other offsetting change.
I think we Disagree that the unit is completely nonviable. The goal was to reduce the number of units in game that are fielded at 40pts or less. 60pts for 4W at T5 with a 4+AS Scouting Jetbikes that averages 1.1 S8AP3 hits per turn and are usable as a harassment unit in assault is not bad. IMO the major problem is the Low LD which is a 58% chance to make, but they won't be under 25% so its a 58% chance to regroup. Snap firing doesn't hurt them terrible as they are only BS2 and Twinlinked most of the time. With Scout they usually won't flee off the board with a 3d6" if they do fail Morale. I don't see them as nonviable, convince me that they are.
The Deffkopta is marginally overcosted to begin with. 1 Twin Linked BS:2 shot. Compare that to what 30 points of Tau gets you, or 30 points of Eldar, or 30 points of most other armies. Even 30 points of Lootas or Flashgitz get you significantly more firepower, and 30 points worth of Warbikers isn't even close. It isn't a viable unit as a damage doing unit at its current price point. Therefore, you would never ever see it in an Ork army except for 1 thing. It is fast, and can hold an objective. So you want to essentially double the points for holding an objective. What you've done is made the price of a min squad of deff koptas the same as a min squad of Warbikers. Warbikers are better for those points, and they are better as the squad grows as well because they can take a character.



That fixes one aspect of Mek Gunz. But doesn't address other problems with them.
Range: Most mek gunz are 36". They don't really have range to do what they are supposed to do (Long range fire support). Especially when you consider that Gretin are really, really short, and have to be able to draw line of sight to any target to shoot the gun. Upping the Range to 48" would fix this. Alternatively not requiring the Gretchin to draw line of sight would help with this as well, because you have more options for deployment.
Leadership: I almost always run a Mek in my Mek Gunz. I know, crazy right? The problem is I can't take a Mek as a part of a squad of Mek guns, I have to take it as a HQ selection, and that doubles the kill points of my Mek Gun unit. Allow mek gunz to take a Mek or Runt Herd, and you would fix this.
36" range is still effecting and controll a large portion of the board, even deployed along your board edge, even in Hammer and Anvil they can threaten all but the back 12" of your opponent's zone. Barrage limits the height of the Gretchin as being an issue for most of the guns. Its midly annoying but fixing that is beyond the scope of this Errata. Now, including a Runtherd for 5pts... that may just be doable... P.S. Taking a Mek as the free HQ slot does not double your kill points, its not an IC and joins the unit for all purposes so you've been playing that wrong. Only taking a Big Mek as a HQ slot would count as a KP. Also, check out my Purge the Alien Modificaiton that is in the main Errata, it makes KPs a bit different and much more balanced.
Barrage is only available to lobbas, and they don't need changes because they work as is. Other mek guns, while it feels like 36" gives them a good enough range and board control, orks can't deploy them at the edge of their deployment edge because more than other armies orks are a close combat army and needs that space for their assault units. Also, depending on the Terrain Gretchin are generally going to fail to have line of sight for 36" in any direction. It is easy as an opponent to exploit the gretchin line of sight, and that is why most Mek guns aren't viable. Adding range allows you more flexibility to deploy further back in a position that isn't as restricted as far as LOS.




As long as this remains unchanged, many builds (Tyranid Hoard), and units (TFex) will remain pretty much unviable. It is a rule created to make you feel back for taking those units. I do not think this rule adds anything positive to the game in its current form, and I would either remove it, or rework it dramatically. If you want to rework it this is what I suggest:
Instinctive Behavior - Feed - Must attempt to charge the nearest non-vehicle target.
Instinctive Behavior - Lurk - Cannot charge.
Instinctive Behavior - Hunt - Must Shoot at the nearest target.

It is still a mess because of how poorly GW assigned those roles to units. (Crone is Feed? WTF? Lictor is Lurk? Why?)
I agree that Iinstinctive Behavior isn't great and is annoying to use. But addressing this rule, when IMO, it isn't a major balance problem, is beyond the scope of what I'm trying to do. With better Synapse it should be better. I was considering making it simply...
Feed: Devour
Hunt: Prowl
Lurk: Seek Cover
Just eliminate the the randomly random table of random for each one and make those the default results. Thoughts?
Its better than nothing. I think it is a balance problem because of how it invalidates build and units.


Rupture Cannon
Lets think this thing over. I'm not sure the AP is the problem here. I think of the Rupture Cannon as long ranged anti-mech. In its current form it is utterly useless. Nobody would ever take it unless they were trying to nerf themselves. However, tweaking the AP slightly doesn't fix it. Consider the
Barbed Heirodule's guns.
2 x Biocannon S10 AP3 assault: 6.
The Barbed Heirodule is able to provide significant anti-mech because it gets 12 shots. Even though it is only BS:3 like the TFex, it gets 6 times as many shots for a little over twice the price.
I think for 195 points the Rupture Cannon TFex should get this:
S10 AP:- Heavy 6.
There is certainly the argument for adding the AP:3, but I think it is more important to make sure the thing hits more than once per turn, and might even have the chance to pop a rhino.
I already dropped the cost of the TFex, increased its number off shots on the Rupture Cannon by 50%, and dropped its AP to 3. It is now 161% as cost effective per shot and the shots are more effective. And it still 2+AS T6 6W MC that can take anything but a dedicated CC unit in assault.Maybe the upgrade can drop in cost by 10pts, but IMO thats about it.

The Barbed Heirodule is an absolute monster, 12 S10 AP3 Shots is kind of crazy, good thing it on a 565pt? model. For comparison the BH is 47pts/shot while the TFex is now 65pts/shot. 6 Shots at two different targets vs 3 shots at three different targets. And that is 6W at T8 with FNP at a 3+ vs 18W at T6 with a 2+. I'm thinking those aren't terrible comparisons.
The flaw in your logic is that assume that a rupture cannon TFex was in the neighborhood of correctly costed to begin with. It wasn't even close. It wouldn't have made sense to take a Rupture cannon if it was free before.

The TFex is a big lunk of an MC. It is slow (BH is fast). It has low damage output in CC (BH has high). It needs a baby sitter, or to hide in terrain because of instinctive behavior (BH doesn't). It has low BS (BH makes up for this in number of shots). The army has no ability to buff it except for giving it cover saves, and theoretically FNP (BH get this by default). Because of all of these things, it was absurdly costed before, and your changes aren't near enough to make anyone include it in an army unless they are looking to nerf themselves.

You are a Tau player. Ask yourself this, would I Include a Rupture cannon Tfex in my Tau lists?



Hive Guard
These guys need more work to make them viable. More BS, More AP, or more shots. Something. Also they should have tank hunter.
50pts for 2 S8 shots that don't need line of sight and ignore cover on a durable T6 platform isn't bad. They are costed better than before so balance is better. Their biggest issue is being elite.
Definitely better than before. Still not good. What role does this unit fill? Anti-Tank? 3 of them can't kill a rhino. They are below average at anti-tank, and terrible at most other things. Not enough quantity or quality. Got to improve one.
Same question as the Rupture Cannon Tfex. Is there another army that would consider taking this unit?


Trygon
Their gun should either be Haywire or plasma (S7 AP2). I get how you are trying to carve them out a role as a monolith / drop pod. But it costs so much to be basically a transport / deployment device. Giving it an ability to contribute to the game in other ways would make sense.
170pts for a T6 W6 MC with Fleet and a shooting attack isn't bad at all. It got 20/30pts cheaper and its Subterranean Assault ability now works as it should. Significantly better with these changes.
Better but not good. I think you give a much higher respect to a S6 T6 MC with a 3+ armor than it is worth. It loses wounds at twice the speed of a Riptide. So a 6 wound Trygon is equivalent to a 3 wound riptide as far as survivability. It is slightly better in CC, but because it Lacks an Invul, it isn't much better, and the shooting profile is pitiful.

Maleceptor

This is currently the worst unit available to any codex. The rules for it make it essentially worthless. It is killing itself roughly as fast as it is killing other things, and it is very pricey. The best way to use it is to never attempt its psychic power, and instead only walk it up the table like a zoenthrope with a worse save, and likely no warp blast. If that is what the thing does it should be costed accordingly (65 points). However, I think it would be fine to fix it's psychic power as well. Make it not a psychic power, but instead a normal shooting attack that can be shot 3 times at different targets with the precision shot rule. It would still probably need a points reduction, but at least then it has a purpose
I'm not even familiar with thier rules... just familiarized myself. I don't quite understand what you are saying here. It is a 5W T6 MC with ML2, an invunerable save, a cool specialist power that it can use multiple times if it wishes, oh and it is a Synapse Creature. I can't tell if you are serious with your 65pt suggestion, it would make it essentially the best unit in the whole game. I mean I value Mastery levels on MCs at 35pts a piece, that is 70pts of its cost right there, esepcially as I opened up Psychic access. Its cost looks good for what it is and what it can do. Yeah, the 4+ hurts a bit, but it is far from the worst unit in any codex, not even close.
For every hull point it does to a vehicle, it takes 0.44 wounds from perils, and that's assuming you are willing to let it eat all of your warp charges. It has a 4+ armor save. It is as survivable as a 1.6 wound riptide. It is worse in CC than a Riptide. It does have 2 ML, but it only gets to roll for one power, and that power has to come off of the Tyranid psychic Tree. I arrived at 65 by starting at a Zoenthrope. Zoenthrope has same mastry level, similar survivability, Not as good in CC, but it has a better psychic power, and a 3+ invul. I figured it is 15 points better than a Zoenthrope. It does have synapse, and I guess that bring some value so 75 points.

I'm not sure where you get this Idea that a S6 T6 5W MC with WS:3 is good. Tac Marines will Krak Grenade it to death in CC. Lots of things can kill it in shooting. Where are the other similar MC's that you see on the tabletop? How well do they do?

Zoenthrope

Make it generate 2 warp charges per model (Like Seer council) even though it is a brotherhood of psychers. That way units of more than 1 make sense again.
I intended for them to generate 1 WC per Zoanthrope like the new Seer Coucil does.
Fair as long as a solo one still gets 2.

Neurothrope

BS: 9.
Not really familiar with it.
Its a 75 point zoenthrope that has psychic Scream. You've got to take at least 3 zoeys to upgrade one to a neurothrope. The problem is the psychic scream is meant to generate warp charges for the Warp Blast, but it doesn't work in practice because there are so many points of failure. Giving it a BS of 9 eliminates one of the many points of failure, and also makes it marginally more effective at Warp Lance.


ETA, oops, forgot this one:

Hive Tyrant: 120pts
May take any of the following.... Wings: 80pts
*A Hive Tyrant with Wings has its Armor Save reduced to a 4+.

I see what you are trying to do here, but that isn't going to work. There are way, way, way, way too much AP:4 in the game to give Winged Tyrants a 4+ save. I feel like unmodified Flying Hive tyrants are glass cannons already, but if you reduce their armor save it makes them basically unusable at that price point. I don't think you should touch the armor save. But if you feel like you have to, then you need to up it to 6 wounds. Honestly at its current price point it would make more sense for it to be 5 wounds to begin with.

The net result of these proposed changes is that you would never ever see another Flying Hive Tyrant, and much like the Deff Kopta, I think the focus should be on keeping units from becoming completely non-viable.

I think you need to re-examine the situation. When I decreased the save for Winded DPs and Tyrants I also made it so FMCs can start the game Swooping. That is huge, they are still a very viable unit, hell, they will still be stand outs with increased Psychic access. Sure, they cost 10pts more and have a 4+ AS now and can always be seen while Swooping, but now they can start the game in Swooping mode, so they do not risk being Alphastriked before getting airborne and they have a much wider Psychic access. Considering they were one of the better units int he game, some kind of net nerf was required, just like all the other standout units in the game got and its fair treatment compared to other FMCs.
The problem with this is that so much in the game is AP4, and the thing only has 4 wounds. That means every time someone says "I'm going to shoot a heavy bolter at you, do you want to jink?", the answer basically becomes "yes." and that lowers the damage output significantly, and completely eliminates the ability to use the thorax flamer which is one of the Tyranid's primary anti-tank weapons. So you've created an overcosted glass cannon that has limited damage output. I just don't see why I would even include it in an army rather than a Crone which would then be more survivable (5 wounds), and is roughly 60% the points, so I can take more of them, and have a chance to actually use their flame template. I completely understand the urge to nerf the Flyrant. But you nerfed it into oblivion, it no longer has a role to fill in the army unless you are trying to nerf yourself.

Here is an interesting question. If we did a 1 on 1 between a HYMP broadside without skyfire and a Dakkaflyrant using your proposed FAQ for both. Who would win? Because the the Broadside is less than 1/2 of the points. Does that seem right? Try it again with a min squad of Space marine devastators with heavy bolters. Does that seem right?

I'll probably drop the Teleport Blasta to 10pts.

I'll adjust Ramshakle to a 4+

I disagree the for 30pts the Deffkopta is marginally overcosted. It gives you .55 S8 AP3 hits per turn, T5, 2W, 4+AS, Jetbike, and Scout.
Eldar gives me 27[ts for a Scattbike..... 2.7 S5 AP6 hits per turn, T4, 1W, 4+AS, EJB, LD8
Tau give me 22pts for a Naked Crisis Suit or 37pts for 1 S4 AP4 Hit per turn, T4, 2W, 3+AS, Jetpack, LD8 Or

60pts for 2x Deffkoptas gives my 1.1 S8 AP3 htis per turn, T5, 4Ws, 4+AS, Jetbike and Scout
52pts for 1 Dual MP Crisis gives 2 S7 AP4 hits per turn, T4, 2W, 3+AS, Jetpack, LD8

Sure, 30pts gives you 2x Lootas, so 4 S7 AP4 Shots gives 1.33 S7 AP4 Hits, T4, 2W, 6+AS, Infantry with a Heavy weapon.

3 Warbikers vs 2 Deffkoptas
3 Warbikers have T5 3W 4+AS LD7 5 hits at S5AP5 at 18" range.
2 Deffkoptas ahve T5 4W 4+AS LD7 3.33 hits at S5AP5 at 36" range or 1.1 hits at S8AP3 at 24" range. And they Scout.
Warbikers have to test on LD sooner and are less durable, although they are more durable against S10. Warbikers bring more CC to the table and the ability to get a 3+cover if they don't shoot.

Where Warbikers are much better is their ability to take a Character and attach an IC. I'm not really seeing how overcosted Deffkoptas are. Also, if the only viable strategy for a unit is to be taken at minimum its not a well balanced unit IMO.

Did you not see that I'm looking to add a Runtherd? I agreed with this point and it is a core rules issue I'm not willing to address.

Instinctive Behavior doesn't invalidate builds its been a big part of Nids for a long time, I may have loathed it in 5th with my Nids and build armies that effectively ignored it, but still, it sucks.

I did improve the TFex with Rupture Cannon by 61%(not including AP improvement) in effectiveness. That is a huge improvement. Your comparison ignores that it is three separate units for almost the same cost. It is still a durable MC with solid CC ability and Ranged S10, which is quite rare in and of itself.
Yes, I am a Tau player right now, I have been a Nids player, a Daemons Player, an Eldar player, a Blood Angels Player, a Grey Knights player, a Necron Player, etc... Against a lot of firepower or with a 5+ cover save the TFex is more durable than a Riptide, less mobile, fearless(huge), greatly improved CC, and ranged S10. Compared to my new IA Riptide it costs less, has one fewer shots, no blast options, but is S10, somewhat shorter range, doesn't kill itself, is fearless, and competent in CC. With a 5+ cover save it is significantly more durable than a Riptide and is not vulnerable to being swept. I'd definitely swap one of my Tides to put a TFex in my backfield, itd definitely protect my tides and give me some ranged 10 which would be nice to have. And its certainly better at wounding a Wratihkngiht at range than the Riptides are or it'd be really nice to scare those T5 DPs when the touchdown getting ready to sweep my backfield. Of course I wouldn't have access to Synapse which I overlooked in this example. By the way, an IA Riptide also takes 3 turns to kill a Rhino(1.33) HP/Turn at range while the TFex needs 2(1.5HP/turn).

Heavy 2 S8 AP4 Ignores Cover and Line of Sight. That is pretty big. And 200pts of Hive Guard deal 2.66 HP/turn to a Rhino meaning they are more poitns effective at popping light AV than a Riptides and TFexes. And they can do it without line of sight or cover reducing their effectiveness. That is also 8 T6 wounds too, but its max 3 per squad so 150pts deals only 2HP/Turn what an HBCTide that risked and succeeded on its Nova does/turn.

I know what a T6 3+ MC is worth, obviously better than GW as I basically gave them all a points drop of ~20+pts. It only wounds at twice the speed against AP4+, a lot faster with AP3, and the same against Ap3, Good thing it has 6 wounds, can get cover to equal resiliancy against low AP, and doesn't actively try and kill itself like an HBCtide. And it is cheaper. And has quite a few of S5 shots too and very good CC against anything that isn't a top tier melee unit.

So T6 5W 4+/5++ is similar survivability compared to T4 2W 3++. Run the math on that one. S4 AP5 need 12 hits to kill a Zoanthrope, 60 hits to kill the Malanthrope. S8AP3 3 hits to kill a Zoanthrope, 7.5 to kill a Malanthrope. Your Riptide comparison is extremly biased and doesn't factor in the wide range of weapons available. You seem to keep missing that all Psychers have access to all power trees, so that Malanthrope can get better powers. Its an MC in CC. Has a power that has many Niche uses,. 75pts is wildly low. IMO 185-195pts seems about right. It is far away from the worst unit in the game. Where is your .44 wounds from perils coming from every turn? Run the math on that one please. Tac marines would do ok against a Malantrhope. 10 of them deals 1.66 wounds/turn with Krak while the Malanthrop deals 1.24 back. The Malanthrope is not a dedicated CC unit, but doesn't fair that badly either.

Zoanthropes will generate 1WC per thrope.


Your Flyrant examples are all over the board. Firstly, you discount completely the Master Levels of the Hive Tyrant. And equalish points of HYMP 210pts deals ~3wounds to the Hive Tyrant if it doesn't Jink. This is actually a pretty hard counter. A Tyrant only deals 1.25 wounds/turn Back. But, this is a bad comparision and not a very far one.
Marine Devs with HBs deals only .66 wounds/turn if the Flyrant doesnt Jink. The Flyrant kills 2.5 back. Even two full Dev Squads isn't fairing very well and loses that matchup due to attrition. And of course the Flyrant is likley to be the first in range and strike first. Anymore virtulaly meaningless vaacuum comparision we need to do?
Your Crone comparison doesn't factor in the T6 of the Hive Tyrant. Or the MLs. This is the best comparison. Against S5 the flyrant is 150% as durable, against S6 133% as durable against S5 125% as durable compared to the Hive Crone having 125% as many wounds and vulnerable to S10 ID... Compared to the cost difference and damage difference, and Synapse, and Masterlevels these models are fairly balanced agaisnt each other.

You definitely responded to my feedback. Adding a runtherd to Mek guns, upping ramshackle, and fixing the telporta blasta are all good things. I'm not sure we will ever see Eye-to-Eye on some of the other things. I'm going to try to pitch different approaches that might get you where you want to go with your nerfs and buffs. In some cases I'm pitching multiple solutions with the idea that you would only pick one of them.

I wonder if some of our disagreement is based on the missions we run. Most events I go to run progressive missions based on objectives. I'm going to Texas Wargamescon in a couple weeks. They run ITC missions, and most events I attend run missions that progressive or more. That is bad for units like flyrants, and good for units like Riptides, and solo Deff Koptas. We also use Mysterious objectives which helps you kill flyrants quite a bit.


Flyrants.


Deff Koptas.


Meganobz.


Rupture Cannon TFex:


Hive Guard:


Maleceptor:


Trygon

I got to agree with the last one.
Trygons are fine in their revised form, but they really need for some reliability in the tunnel process.
I'd say that them auto entering turn 2 would make them good, fluffy (they come from underground, not from the sky, it's a much more manageable process), and with a definite role.
They would become a nid cool variant of a transport.

Also, Tag read the general errata related to these posts, you'll see that all psykers have access to all disciplines.
This may help the Malanthrope.

I would also like to hear your opinion on the tail biomorphs, what i suggested was:

Bone tails from 15 to 10
Thresher Scythe from 10 to 5 and replace rend with shred
Prehensile pincer from 10 to 5
Toxin spike gains ID on 6 and stays at 10

Since we are taking on the Malanthrope then i guess that it's also time for his venomous cousin. His roll is clear and he is efficient at it. He just needs a recosting. 125 maybe?

Spoletta wrote:
Also, Tag read the general errata related to these posts, you'll see that all psykers have access to all disciplines.
This may help the Malanthrope. Maleceptor

Oh, Geez. I read it, but missed that part, or didn't think it applied to Tyranids. Wowzer. That makes a huge difference. Part of the costing of Tyranids psychers is based on their psychic power tree having many powers that are basically useless, and others like Warp Lance that are good, but require too many warp charges. Zoeys probably need to be a brood of 2 min, or have a points boost of some sort. Otherwise armies will spam single zoeys. Flyrants... I don't know. They become wildly random. If they roll Iron Arm.... Precog... They will never roll again on the Tyranid tree. The melee flyrant will be back in a big way. This completely changes the flyrant debate. It changes it so fundamentally, that I don't think any of us can really understand the full ramifications. With the ability to roll on any psychic tree, I doubt we will ever see a dakkaflyrant again.

Spoletta wrote:
Bone tails from 15 to 10
Thresher Scythe from 10 to 5 and replace rend with shred
Prehensile pincer from 10 to 5
Toxin spike gains ID on 6 and stays at 10

I like your ideas here. However, the biggest problem with tails is that they aren't usable because they get forgotten, and swing at a different initiative, and add paperwork. I would rather see the Tail add +1 Attack, and some minor special rule. Bone Tails = +1 attack, and Tank Hunter. Thresher Scythe, +1 Attack, master crafted. Prehensile, -1 attack to a model in base. Toxin Spike: +1 Attack, Poison 6+ That last one doesn't work because of rerolls, but I'll think of something better. But then you could leave the points alone.

Spoletta wrote:
Since we are taking on the Malanthrope Maleceptor then i guess that it's also time for his venomous cousin. His roll is clear and he is efficient at it. He just needs a recosting. 125 maybe?

I'm not sure about the Toxicrine. If it weren't for that 4+ armor save, and his S of 5, I think he would be perfect the way he is. I generally agree that there is always a points cost that corresponds to any set of abilities, but the Toxicrine is really good against infantry and MC's, and so very, very bad against vehicles. So his points value would kind of depend on your opponent. I could see dropping him to 145 or 150, but I think 125 is too low. I rarely see the on the table. I don't own one myself, and I think these are related to the model being so awful, and untransportable, and a pain to play. I kinda think the rules are OK. My suggestion. Give him Flesh Hooks (assault Grenades), and then leave him alone. If we ever get a model for it that isn't 12" wide, I'll bet it will see table time.

tag8833 wrote:
You definitely responded to my feedback. Adding a runtherd to Mek guns, upping ramshackle, and fixing the telporta blasta are all good things. I'm not sure we will ever see Eye-to-Eye on some of the other things. I'm going to try to pitch different approaches that might get you where you want to go with your nerfs and buffs. In some cases I'm pitching multiple solutions with the idea that you would only pick one of them.

I wonder if some of our disagreement is based on the missions we run. Most events I go to run progressive missions based on objectives. I'm going to Texas Wargamescon in a couple weeks. They run ITC missions, and most events I attend run missions that progressive or more. That is bad for units like flyrants, and good for units like Riptides, and solo Deff Koptas. We also use Mysterious objectives which helps you kill flyrants quite a bit.

I've played with lots of different mission scenarios from BAO/ITC to a lot of NOVA in 7th. I think a bigger issue is games not finishing, stealing objectives is only reliable when you know the game is about to end due to time. I've won and lost games I shouldn't have because of it. It is a major problem and with 6th/7th's bloated and scaletasitc problems games are not finishing on times and tournaments are not reducing the points value to compensate.


Flyrants.

Spoiler:

You are right that the flyrant mainly gets owned by Tau, Sicarins, Knights, and quad guns. Heavy bolter marines become 3 times as effective against it, but it still isn't a great counter.

However, I still think you are barking up the wrong tree. The problem isn't the survivability of Flyrants. I took 3 to LVO. I lost all 3 in 3 of my 6 games. I even lost my warlord once to a perils followed by a roll of 1 and a failed leadership test. Over 6 games I lost a total of 12 flyrants, and 2 of my games I tabled my opponents by turn 4. They help you kill them via perils, grounding, and needing to land to score objectives. Mysterious objectives are rough for them, because units can often get skyfire.

Solution: Dropping their BS by 1 would be a better solution to nerf the flyrant than a lower armor save. That coupled with your points increase would make them pretty mediocre compared to other tyranid options.

You really need to read my general errata like I"ve pointed you at for multiple posts. Tyranids are not stuck on only the tyranid powers tree. This really changes things. And there was a major problem with the survivability of Flyrants outside of Alphastriking them when they were on the ground. Your antecedoatal evidence doesn't help much. T6 4W 3+AS Jink and a FMC with 2MLs to work with is huge. Mysterious Objectives are gak, and a worthless unnecessary and game slowing addition.

Deff Koptas.

Spoiler:

Still clueless why you think they need a nerf. I really think some gametime would clear this up for you. You keep mentioning that they scout. The main usage for this is a deff kopta deathstar, but you can do something similar with Zhardnark anyways. Deff Koptas are fairly fragile, and don't generally want to scout. Generally they want to outflank and jump on an objective. The biggest problem with them is their leadership value. You didn't like my suggestion of upping their leadership value.
Solution 1: For mob rule checks, they always get to take hits instead of run away, even if they have less than 10 models
Solution 2: You could give them free boss poles.

Scout is a useful ability, outflank is granted by Scout. Only every fielding a unit as a minimum of 1 is a problem, units should have more use. I've used examples showing DeffKoptas are fairly well balanced internally and externally. Viewing them as only an objective grabber and shoehorned into that singular role is a problem.

Meganobz.

Spoiler:

I know this one hasn't been address, but Meganobz would take a nerf from your mob rule changes. They have low leadership. They are pricey, and there are so many hard counters to them out there. I like your tweak to Ghaz, and that gives them a place, but it would be nice if you addressed their leadership problems a bit.
Solution: For mob rule checks, they always get to take hits instead of run away, even if they have less than 10 models

It would be a relatively minor nerf, one that can be rectified with a Bosspole. And with a Bosspole they are likely better, I don't really feel like running the math but I'm guessing you didn't think about the Bosspole. Rethink your stance on this one.

Rupture Cannon TFex:

Spoiler:

We've compared this to a riptide a few times. Next time we play I will gladly let you run as many 195 point 3 shot Rupture Cannon Tfexes in place of riptides as you would like. Lets take a look at the riptide and see if we can come up with a solution there:
Solution 1: They can upgrade their Stinger Salvo to a fleshborer hive in addition to a rupture cannon. This gives them an equivalent to SMS.
Solution 2: They can choose not to shoot and get a 4D6 run move.
Solution 3: Up the BS to 4.
Solution 4: Give the rupture cannon 3 modes. Assault 10 S7 AP-, Assault 3 S10, AP:3, and Assault 1 S9 AP:3 Large blast, ordinance.
Solution 5: In CC, the TFex has a 4++.
I'm not sure any of these make the TFex a viable alternative to the anti-tank of the Flyrant or Barbed Heirodule, and I feel like that is the main purpose of the Rupture cannon, anti-tank, but there might be some usage for it if you tweak it in one of those fashions. Also if you fix the Heavy Venom Cannon so that it is assault 3 rather than blast, maybe Harpies, and Carnifexes become a viable anti-tank option

161% capability for cost with a better AP. And the Riptides you keep using for comparison got worse. That is a massive improvement. Maybe its not perfect, but it is as far as I'm willing to go right now.

Hive Guard:

Spoiler:

In the previous codex they had a higher BS. That drop in BS hurt them quite a bit. It also hurt them that the amount of shooting in the game skyrocketed since that codex. Going back to the old codex power level feels too powerful for you so I offer the following.
Solution 1: They gain Melta. That means if they are within 12" they have a pretty reliable odd of taking a hull point off of a vehicle.
Solution 2: Drop their Toughness and points. When I run Hive guard the ignore LOS doesn't really matter, because they are basically always the least threatening part of my army. Nobody ever shoots at them until everything else is dead. So their survivability isn't terribly important. Make them T4 with a 4+, but only cost 35 points.
Solution 3: Give them some rule where hits can do additional damage. I suggest Tesla. Rolls to hit of 6 give you 2 more hits.
Solution 4: Extend their range to 48"

I already showed the math on how effective they are against light AV. They are 9% cheaper now, that is a solid improvement.

Maleceptor:

Spoiler:

One important note is that Tyranid Psychers can only roll on the Tyranid Psychic power tree.

I did the math on the maleceptor's power a long time ago. I misremembered it, and thought it was only a 44% chance to take a wound from perils for each hull point it is even worse.
Here is the math:
Using 5 dice, The Maleceptor requires 5 shots (psychic power casting attempts) to statistically take a hull point off of a vehicle, and that is 25 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has 65% chance of taking a wound from perils.
If you roll 4 dice instead of 5, it takes 6 shots to take a hull point off a vehicle, and only 24 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has a 53% chance of taking a wound.

Using 5 dice, It requires 2.5 shots to statistically kill a Necron Warrior (LD 10). 12.5 warp dice, and has a 33% chance of taking a wound.
If you roll 4 dice instead of 5, it takes 3 shots to statistically kill a Necron Warrior, and only 12 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has a 26% chance of taking a wound.

Solution: Let this unit roll on psychic powers other than the Tyranid Tree.

Again, I repeatedly asked you to read my general Errata and told you about psychic asses. I'm discounting your argument.

Trygon

Spoiler:

I can see a way to build a gimicky list around this guy the way you've altered him. It is not a tournament list, because it depends on a 3+ roll for reserves. My favorite solution would be to alter the shooting to bring it more in line with the fluff, but I have other ideas.
Solution #1: A Trygon gives you a reserve modified akin to the Autarch.
Solution #2: A Trygon always comes in on turn 2.
Solution #3: A Trygon can roll to come in starting turn 1.
Solution #4: On the turn a Trygon arrives from reserves, he has a 2+ armor save, or shrouded, or some other survivability buff

They Trygon has gotten significantly cheaper(11% for the Trygon and 13% for the Trygon Prime) and its special ability now functions correctly. That is already a huge improvement.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
I got to agree with the last one.
Trygons are fine in their revised form, but they really need for some reliability in the tunnel process.
I'd say that them auto entering turn 2 would make them good, fluffy (they come from underground, not from the sky, it's a much more manageable process), and with a definite role.
They would become a nid cool variant of a transport.

Also, Tag read the general errata related to these posts, you'll see that all psykers have access to all disciplines.
This may help the Malanthrope.

I would also like to hear your opinion on the tail biomorphs, what i suggested was:

Bone tails from 15 to 10
Thresher Scythe from 10 to 5 and replace rend with shred
Prehensile pincer from 10 to 5
Toxin spike gains ID on 6 and stays at 10

Since we are taking on the Malanthrope then i guess that it's also time for his venomous cousin. His roll is clear and he is efficient at it. He just needs a recosting. 125 maybe?

The Trygon has already been buffed massively and its special functions correctly. I've considered making it auto arrive Turn 2... but am not sure about it. IMO it has recieved enough balancing for our purposes but its not off the table.


I liked your repricing idea for the tails and am planning on it. I don't feel I should rewrite the rules for them, but the cost decrease is needed and I'm planning on doing it. Just haven't had the time to list it for every unit.

The Malanthrope... It was horribly undercosted. I already talked about it earlier and just need to make an entry. It will likely cost 115-125pts. Compared to the new Prime(85pts) it needs to be significantly more costly that it currently is. Or it should of had a 4+ AS, or some combination of the above. It simply was too durable for its cost and the massive buffs it brings an army compared to a Venomthrope.

Zag could you use non-blue text for replies. My eyes.... they burn

Oh and now that I remembered it, I was thinking of the torrent for pyrovores. Maybe make it torrent (6") like the FW riptide? Then it leaves acid spray as the go-to long range torrent.

 Cytharai wrote:
Zag could you use non-blue text for replies. My eyes.... they burn

Oh and now that I remembered it, I was thinking of the torrent for pyrovores. Maybe make it torrent (6") like the FW riptide? Then it leaves acid spray as the go-to long range torrent.

Sorry, maybe its my monitor or my eyes but I find it less harsh than a lot of other colors. I'll pick something else next time around.

Hmm.... The Pyrovores are a S4 AP5 Torrent, Acid Spray is a S6 AP4 Torrent. They kind of fulfill the same role, but the S6 and AP4 is pretty big and they are in different FOC locations... I don't know.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SD2Ymb2WnufJwVGX3iwW62N49FcmTWNPZlzirsVf_5s/edit?usp=sharing

Just for a bit easier viewing, points down are blue, points up are red

 Cytharai wrote:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SD2Ymb2WnufJwVGX3iwW62N49FcmTWNPZlzirsVf_5s/edit?usp=sharing

Just for a bit easier viewing, points down are blue, points up are red

That definitely makes for some easier reading. Though I think you got the Biomorphs wrong, Regeneration is definitely not more expensive. Thanks!

 Zagman wrote:
That definitely makes for some easier reading. Though I think you got the Biomorphs wrong, Regeneration is definitely not more expensive. Thanks!

Yep derped on adrenal glands and regen color coding lol. Should be corrected now

Something on topic though, 50 points for barbed stranglers and venom cannons on tyrannocytes seems a bit pricy. 125 points for the pod gets it up to wave serpent price, or alternatively a biovore brood of 3. The 5 large blasts is pretty terrifying at first, but being able to negate it through unit positioning (since the pod can't choose its target) and the pod being relatively fragile makes it a pretty hefty investment for something that's going to get one or two turns of shooting.