Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Zagman wrote:

Meganobz.

Spoiler:

I know this one hasn't been address, but Meganobz would take a nerf from your mob rule changes. They have low leadership. They are pricey, and there are so many hard counters to them out there. I like your tweak to Ghaz, and that gives them a place, but it would be nice if you addressed their leadership problems a bit.
Solution: For mob rule checks, they always get to take hits instead of run away, even if they have less than 10 models

It would be a relatively minor nerf, one that can be rectified with a Bosspole. And with a Bosspole they are likely better, I don't really feel like running the math but I'm guessing you didn't think about the Bosspole. Rethink your stance on this one.

Meganobz are a unit that is only valuable once it gets into assault. They are super slow lacking the ability to run, so they are always inside transports. Every time the transport is killed around them they must take a pinning test. Odds of Failing that pinning test is 41.66. I did account for the bosspole. Adding the bosspole to the unit means they can reroll that test. That means they have a 17.37% chance of becoming essentially irrelevant because any enemy within range when the vehicle popped has an opportunity to move out of range.

In addition they will fail a leadership and run away 17.37% generally after losing one model. A single failed leadership test will take them effectively out of the game. Keep in mind that the minimum investment in this unit is 155 points.

When you account for the number of times the transport get alpha struck, you have a unit that is hugely unreliable. Your "minor" nerf has made it somewhere between 17.37% and 34% less reliable. I wouldn't be surprised if the result is Meganobz only getting taken when accompanied by Ghaz in large point games. You mention a 9% price drop for Hive Guard making them effective even though they are still 33% less powerful than they were in the 5th edition Tyranid codex. A 17.37% nerf to MANZ still seems "Relatively minor"?

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Meganobz.

Spoiler:

I know this one hasn't been address, but Meganobz would take a nerf from your mob rule changes. They have low leadership. They are pricey, and there are so many hard counters to them out there. I like your tweak to Ghaz, and that gives them a place, but it would be nice if you addressed their leadership problems a bit.
Solution: For mob rule checks, they always get to take hits instead of run away, even if they have less than 10 models

It would be a relatively minor nerf, one that can be rectified with a Bosspole. And with a Bosspole they are likely better, I don't really feel like running the math but I'm guessing you didn't think about the Bosspole. Rethink your stance on this one.

Meganobz are a unit that is only valuable once it gets into assault. They are super slow lacking the ability to run, so they are always inside transports. Every time the transport is killed around them they must take a pinning test. Odds of Failing that pinning test is 41.66. I did account for the bosspole. Adding the bosspole to the unit means they can reroll that test. That means they have a 17.37% chance of becoming essentially irrelevant because any enemy within range when the vehicle popped has an opportunity to move out of range.

In addition they will fail a leadership and run away 17.37% generally after losing one model. A single failed leadership test will take them effectively out of the game. Keep in mind that the minimum investment in this unit is 155 points.

When you account for the number of times the transport get alpha struck, you have a unit that is hugely unreliable. Your "minor" nerf has made it somewhere between 17.37% and 34% less reliable. I wouldn't be surprised if the result is Meganobz only getting taken when accompanied by Ghaz in large point games. You mention a 9% price drop for Hive Guard making them effective even though they are still 33% less powerful than they were in the 5th edition Tyranid codex. A 17.37% nerf to MANZ still seems "Relatively minor"?

What are you rambling on about?

New Mob Rule(Dependent on Bosspole)
LD7 58% chance of success, 83% after Bosspole Reroll.

Old Boss Rule(Dependent on Boss Nob being alive and Bosspole)
LD7 58% chance of success, 72% after Mob Rule, 81% chance after Bosspole Reroll. In CC it becomes 90%

When an IC with LD>7 their morale becomes significantly better, though it allows them to potentially lose combat under the new Mob Rules more often. Also, passing due to the Old Mob Rule results in an average of 1.75 wounds vs the 1 of the new Mob Rule and Boss Pole barring CC.

Last time I checked 83%>81%... A 2.5% boost to LD in that situation is hardly a 17% nerf.

Now, I had been considering a 5pt discount for Meganobz, but strongly disagree without your math and your "17% nerf".

Hive guard.... Though I fielding them I forgot about BS4. What was their old cost? They may need another 5pt drop.

At 8 or more models that percentage goes up and a BW could hold 10.

 Zagman wrote:
Last time I checked 83%>81%... A 2.5% boost to LD in that situation is hardly a 17% nerf.

GAC. Can't do math tonight. You are correct. I had them passing 95% with current mob rule, but your math is right, mine was wrong.

 Zagman wrote:
Hive guard.... Though I fielding them I forgot about BS4. What was their old cost? They may need another 5pt drop.

In the 5th ed codex I'm pretty sure they were 50 PPM. Same stats you have except 1 higher BS.

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Last time I checked 83%>81%... A 2.5% boost to LD in that situation is hardly a 17% nerf.

GAC. Can't do math tonight. You are correct. I had them passing 95% with current mob rule, but your math is right, mine was wrong.

 Zagman wrote:
Hive guard.... Though I fielding them I forgot about BS4. What was their old cost? They may need another 5pt drop.

In the 5th ed codex I'm pretty sure they were 50 PPM. Same stats you have except 1 higher BS.

No worries. Can't believe how many times Ibe made simple mistakes, haha. I'm still leaning towards 35ppm after my Terminater changes which seems fair.

Hive Guard, I'll have to dig out a 5th Ed Codex, but if they were 50ppm and Bs4 they'll get another 5pt discount for sure.

I'm still not sold on the "Nids get all Psy powers" stuff, mainly for two reasons:

1) Fluff wise it makes no sense that a nid harnesses warp.
2) It would make balancing our psy models quite hard. I believe that revamping the nid powers would be enough.

Thanks for starting this thread!!!!!!
My opinion:
-Bosspole: Auto hit d3 S4 AP6 = pass test
-Mek Tools: keep RAW.
-KFF: Keep points.
-Add portable voidshield option 100pts
-Consider keeping all stats points etc for dorkanauts. Add "superheavy walker." Add "assault vehicle."
-kanz. 3HP. Kan klaw = PK. Move to elite.
-ddreads 4hp. Cheaper riggers.
-better / funnier psychic powers. Add discipline.
-waagh affects warpcharge/perils/manifestation chances
-allow zagstruks stormboyz to assault from deepstrike. Lose ere we go if so.

Spoletta wrote:I'm still not sold on the "Nids get all Psy powers" stuff, mainly for two reasons:

1) Fluff wise it makes no sense that a nid harnesses warp.
2) It would make balancing our psy models quite hard. I believe that revamping the nid powers would be enough.

GW made them Psykers and they have a strong Psychic presence already. Its not about fluff, but a a level playing field. I'd much rather do a large rewrite of all the powers and Psykers in general, but this and tweaking the worst powers is enough. There is still a good amount of utility for Nids to use their power list, doesn't create super melee monsters like Biomancy, or open up Invis etc but its options, and as long as those optoins don't have anything majorly broken left its just fine to open up access.

doktor_g wrote:Thanks for starting this thread!!!!!!
My opinion:
-Bosspole: Auto hit d3 S4 AP6 = pass test
-Mek Tools: keep RAW.
-KFF: Keep points.
-Add portable voidshield option 100pts
-Consider keeping all stats points etc for dorkanauts. Add "superheavy walker." Add "assault vehicle."
-kanz. 3HP. Kan klaw = PK. Move to elite.
-ddreads 4hp. Cheaper riggers.
-better / funnier psychic powers. Add discipline.
-waagh affects warpcharge/perils/manifestation chances
-allow zagstruks stormboyz to assault from deepstrike. Lose ere we go if so.

You are welcome!

I've been tempted to do that for the boss pole. Make it a d3 wounds at AP6 but be an auto pass. Fixes ld issues for any unit that can have one, doesn't fix units that dont' get them.
Stacking Meck tools is still problem. Its not one attempt, its one success. So haveing more than one Mek just helps ensure you'll be successful.
Revert back to 50pt KFFs?? Since it switched to per model I don't think that is necessary at all. 40pts seems fair.
I'm trying to not move FOC slots as much as possible, though Kans probably need a bit more love, I feel as if the changes is enough to really give them a boost.
I could have dropped the price of Riggers.
I didn't want to rewrite that much. Per my main Errata, Weirdboyz now have access to all powers short of Malefic.
I didn't want to rewrite too many rules, I already rewrote Bosspole, Cyborg, and Mob Rule. The goal was the ligthest touch to have a desired effect.
Now a bad suggestion about Zagstruks, but again I'm trying not to change anything too major or rewrite rules write new ones.

 Zagman wrote:
I'd much rather do a large rewrite of all the powers and Psykers in general, but this and tweaking the worst powers is enough. There is still a good amount of utility for Nids to use their power list, doesn't create super melee monsters like Biomancy, or open up Invis etc but its options, and as long as those optoins don't have anything majorly broken left its just fine to open up access.

I definitely support the idea here. Here are some thoughts on how to apply this to Tyranids that keep the Tyranid powers in play, and head off some potential problems.

I'm assuming that psychers that come with predefined psychic powers still have those, and thus if they roll on another tree, they give up the primaris. If that isn't right, I'll tweak this.

1. Zoey's. If you made Warp Blast / Lance Warp Charge 1, and you reduced zoeys to Mastery Level 1 or Mastery Level (# of zoeys in Brood), they would be a little more in line with fluff, and less likely to create exploitable spamming of psychic powers.

2. The Swarmlord. If he chooses to go with the Tyranid tree, I think he should know all tyranid psychic powers. He has no shooting, but at least this way he is guaranteed to have access to Wrap Lance, and catalyst, and he has an incentive to stick with the Tyranid tree.

3. Tyrants. I propose that you make Wings and Mastery Levels mutually exclusive. So in order to Take Wings a Tyrant gives up psychic abilities. In exchange, I propose you give the Flyrant back its 3+ armor save, and reduce the cost of wings a bit. I think this heads off problems with psychic powers and also creates a situation where a heavily nerfed Dakka Flyrant is still available as an anti-tank option. I feel like this is a great solution because it fixes some of the unreliable/glass cannon issues Flyrants currently have. They tend to take a wound from perils, and then another from grounding. At the same time it is a significant nerf to the damage output.

4. The Broodlord. ML2. This somewhat justifies his price point, and is also a useful tweak to genestealers making them a substantially more versatile unit. Also offsets the fact that his default power is "The Horror", and in most situations that power is useless.
How to fix "The Horror"


5. Tervigon. Access to a 25 point upgrade to become ML 2. This makes it a bit more versatile and attractive. I'd be tempted to drop its base points by that, because the other HQ choices got better, and the 30 gant tax is pretty sever for making him a troop.

6. Nurothrope. He is a zoenthrope upgrade character. If you take one he adds 1 mastery level to you squad and +2 warp dice instead of +1 for the ordinary Zoey.

7. Maleceptor. Either Get rid of psychic overload, or fix it.
Here is my suggestion to fix it:

Something that I was pondering with the Trygon. Maybe make the tunnel itself kind of like a transport/drop pod where you could assign a unit of infantry to it at the start of the game. The infantry assigned to it comes through the turn the Trygon deploys (possibly too strong), or automatically comes through the hole the turn after the Trygon arrives. Might make up a bit for the fact that you could have a specific unit that you want to effectively deepstrike via the tunnel, but due to reserves rolls comes in the turn before the Trygon, forcing them to footslog across the table.

The opening up Psychic access needs some clarification. If a unit has preset powers and has no option to roll, it does not gain the ability to roll for powers. If it has preset powers and the ability to roll it can roll on any tree. For instance many GK squads have preset powers, they retain these. Only those units ie Librarians that are allowed to roll for powers get to roll on any tree. Another example is the Broodlord, he knows one power and that is it. Zoanthropes know Warp Blast in addition to another power, if they choose Hive Mind they'll also gain the Primaris, if they choose another tree they will lose out on the Primaris power.

I'm thinking Zoanthropes will have ML equal to number of Zoanthropes in the brood. Losing Zoanthropes loses powers and ML.

IMO the Broodlord doesn't really need buffs to be worth his points. He is T5 S5 3W 4 Attacks, Rending, Fleet, Infiltrate, and Move through Cover, and generates a WC, all for 60pts. That is solid. The problem was Genestealers cost for durability, not the Broodlord.

The Terivgon is a solid unit. 6W T6 MC with ML1 and generates units. I think some of this is wishlisting. And MC MLs are worth 35pts.

Maleceptors will have Psychic Overlord in addition to what it rolls, that is already a big boost. Makes it essentially one of the most versatile Psykers for Tyranids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:
Something that I was pondering with the Trygon. Maybe make the tunnel itself kind of like a transport/drop pod where you could assign a unit of infantry to it at the start of the game. The infantry assigned to it comes through the turn the Trygon deploys (possibly too strong), or automatically comes through the hole the turn after the Trygon arrives. Might make up a bit for the fact that you could have a specific unit that you want to effectively deepstrike via the tunnel, but due to reserves rolls comes in the turn before the Trygon, forcing them to footslog across the table.

You must have been reading my mind. This is exactly the solution that I came up with on my long drive yesturday.

Kind of like the Escort ability of Stormtalons. Assign one infantry unit to the Trygon, it arrives on the same turn as the Trygon no matter when the Trygon arrives. They are rolled together for reserves.

tag8833 wrote:

2. The Swarmlord. If he chooses to go with the Tyranid tree, I think he should know all tyranid psychic powers. He has no shooting, but at least this way he is guaranteed to have access to Wrap Lance, and catalyst, and he has an incentive to stick with the Tyranid tree.

3. Tyrants. I propose that you make Wings and Mastery Levels mutually exclusive. So in order to Take Wings a Tyrant gives up psychic abilities. In exchange, I propose you give the Flyrant back its 3+ armor save, and reduce the cost of wings a bit. I think this heads off problems with psychic powers and also creates a situation where a heavily nerfed Dakka Flyrant is still available as an anti-tank option. I feel like this is a great solution because it fixes some of the unreliable/glass cannon issues Flyrants currently have. They tend to take a wound from perils, and then another from grounding. At the same time it is a significant nerf to the damage output.

[/spoiler]

I'm really liking those.

Also, i still believe that the following should happen to make nid powers a bit more appetible:

Dominion increases SiTW range
The Horror add "The target unit cannot fire overwatch"
Psychic shriek increase nova to 9"
Maybe bring Warp lance to AP1, makes it a bit more reliable form of AV.

 Zagman wrote:
I'm thinking Zoanthropes will have ML equal to number of Zoanthropes in the brood.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

I think the additional book keeping for the gaining and losing powers might be a bit much. If you're running multiple broods that's a lot of gaining and losing powers (a-la daemons) that I think is a bit tedious. Getting additional warp charges for larger broods is a pretty good fix as it stands IMO.

 Cytharai wrote:
Something that I was pondering with the Trygon. Maybe make the tunnel itself kind of like a transport/drop pod where you could assign a unit of infantry to it at the start of the game. The infantry assigned to it comes through the turn the Trygon deploys (possibly too strong), or automatically comes through the hole the turn after the Trygon arrives. Might make up a bit for the fact that you could have a specific unit that you want to effectively deepstrike via the tunnel, but due to reserves rolls comes in the turn before the Trygon, forcing them to footslog across the table.

You must have been reading my mind. This is exactly the solution that I came up with on my long drive yesturday.

Kind of like the Escort ability of Stormtalons. Assign one infantry unit to the Trygon, it arrives on the same turn as the Trygon no matter when the Trygon arrives. They are rolled together for reserves.

Yeah that's always been my biggest detractor of trying a Trygon delivery system list. There's just too much of a chance the thing you REALLY want coming through the tunnel not co-operating

Tyrannocyte
If you are going to make these changes you should also specify that it chooses targets like an MC not a vehicle. Closest unit from the base gets all 5 guns shot at it. Otherwise the BS and VC upgrades a horrifically over priced. I know that many people interpret the rules to be this already, but there are also many that don't.

Yeah, they are a mess, I need to do some work for them. I've read them as can shoot all five at the closest target or it needs to be clarified. I'll probably revert the cost and clarify 45 degree line of sight for each weapon, like vehicle rules for a hull mounted weapon.

Just as an aside for Tyrannocytes, giving them hull-mounted weapon esque guns allows them to fire at most 3, though most often they will be shooting 2 guns. Check the image
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2015/1/18/679561_sm-Tyrannocyte%20Top.JPG

Spoletta wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

2. The Swarmlord. If he chooses to go with the Tyranid tree, I think he should know all tyranid psychic powers. He has no shooting, but at least this way he is guaranteed to have access to Wrap Lance, and catalyst, and he has an incentive to stick with the Tyranid tree.

3. Tyrants. I propose that you make Wings and Mastery Levels mutually exclusive. So in order to Take Wings a Tyrant gives up psychic abilities. In exchange, I propose you give the Flyrant back its 3+ armor save, and reduce the cost of wings a bit. I think this heads off problems with psychic powers and also creates a situation where a heavily nerfed Dakka Flyrant is still available as an anti-tank option. I feel like this is a great solution because it fixes some of the unreliable/glass cannon issues Flyrants currently have. They tend to take a wound from perils, and then another from grounding. At the same time it is a significant nerf to the damage output.

[/spoiler]

I'm really liking those.

Also, i still believe that the following should happen to make nid powers a bit more appetible:

Dominion increases SiTW range
The Horror add "The target unit cannot fire overwatch"
Psychic shriek increase nova to 9"
Maybe bring Warp lance to AP1, makes it a bit more reliable form of AV.

I don't feel it is right taking ML away from Flyrants. I don't feel right shourt of a Prime bieng Hq that they shouldn't be led by a powerful presence. I don't think the Swarmlord having all Tyranid powers is out of scope at all. I may add that in.

I already fixed Dominion, reread SiTW. It affects synapse range. Anything that increases Synapse range increases SiTW range as well.
That would be interesting for Horror.
Maybe a larger NOVA range is necesary... I don't know.
Warp lance already deals an HP on a 2+ and pens anything in the game on a 3+ or better. That isn't bad at all. It is WC2, but with broods producing more WCs it still feels ok.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
I'm thinking Zoanthropes will have ML equal to number of Zoanthropes in the brood.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

I think the additional book keeping for the gaining and losing powers might be a bit much. If you're running multiple broods that's a lot of gaining and losing powers (a-la daemons) that I think is a bit tedious. Getting additional warp charges for larger broods is a pretty good fix as it stands IMO.

 Cytharai wrote:
Something that I was pondering with the Trygon. Maybe make the tunnel itself kind of like a transport/drop pod where you could assign a unit of infantry to it at the start of the game. The infantry assigned to it comes through the turn the Trygon deploys (possibly too strong), or automatically comes through the hole the turn after the Trygon arrives. Might make up a bit for the fact that you could have a specific unit that you want to effectively deepstrike via the tunnel, but due to reserves rolls comes in the turn before the Trygon, forcing them to footslog across the table.

You must have been reading my mind. This is exactly the solution that I came up with on my long drive yesturday.

Kind of like the Escort ability of Stormtalons. Assign one infantry unit to the Trygon, it arrives on the same turn as the Trygon no matter when the Trygon arrives. They are rolled together for reserves.

Yeah that's always been my biggest detractor of trying a Trygon delivery system list. There's just too much of a chance the thing you REALLY want coming through the tunnel not co-operating

Tyrannocyte
If you are going to make these changes you should also specify that it chooses targets like an MC not a vehicle. Closest unit from the base gets all 5 guns shot at it. Otherwise the BS and VC upgrades a horrifically over priced. I know that many people interpret the rules to be this already, but there are also many that don't.

Yeah, they are a mess, I need to do some work for them. I've read them as can shoot all five at the closest target or it needs to be clarified. I'll probably revert the cost and clarify 45 degree line of sight for each weapon, like vehicle rules for a hull mounted weapon.

Just as an aside for Tyrannocytes, giving them hull-mounted weapon esque guns allows them to fire at most 3, though most often they will be shooting 2 guns. Check the image
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2015/1/18/679561_sm-Tyrannocyte%20Top.JPG

I agree about the bookkeeping. I was on the fence, but I think just one WC per Zoanthrope would be fine.

I'm going to make that change for Trygons.

I will be fixing the Tyrannocyte. I'm ok with letting them fire all of them so long as they are Hull Mounted. Just need to fairly price them, IMO stock pricing wasn't terrible if the function like that.

 Zagman wrote:
I'm thinking Zoanthropes will have ML equal to number of Zoanthropes in the brood. Losing Zoanthropes loses powers and ML.

I think this is the right way to go. I don't think the book keeping is problematic. The only question is the Role for the Nuerothrope.

 Zagman wrote:
IMO the Broodlord doesn't really need buffs to be worth his points. He is T5 S5 3W 4 Attacks, Rending, Fleet, Infiltrate, and Move through Cover, and generates a WC, all for 60pts. That is solid. The problem was Genestealers cost for durability, not the Broodlord.

Why would I take 1 instead of additional Genestealers? Genestealers get you more attacks and more wounds on a point for point basis. Taking more squads gets you msu. Taking larger squads lets you congaline to a venomthrope.

 Zagman wrote:
The Terivgon is a solid unit. 6W T6 MC with ML1 and generates units. I think some of this is wishlisting. And MC MLs are worth 35pts.

How many Tervigons do you see today? The only time I bring mine out is when I'm looking to nerf myself. If I really want to tank a game I just bring both Tervigons. My initial interpretation was that you were reducing the power level of everything so that the Tervigon would become useful, but with the exception of Flyrants, Gargoyles, and Mawlocs you are buffing everything. I don't think the Tervigon will be very balanced compared to other codex options that all have a better damage output on a point for point basis.

Also, you are nerfing summoning, I assumed that would apply to termagants generated by the tervigon as well, right?

ETA: 35 points for a ML on an MC isn't a good rule. A ML on a FMC is way, way more valuable than a ML on a walking MC. So 35 points per ML on a Winged Demon Prince might or might not be fair, but it is less valuable to a Tervigon. Also the Tervigon isn't an IC, that is why I used the same price as a ML to a space marine libby. Space marine libbys can make better use of many powers via being an IC, while a Tervigon can make better use of some powers via being a MC. I figured it was a wash.

tag8833 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
I'm thinking Zoanthropes will have ML equal to number of Zoanthropes in the brood. Losing Zoanthropes loses powers and ML.

I think this is the right way to go. I don't think the book keeping is problematic. The only question is the Role for the Nuerothrope.

Yeah, I tend towards trying to simplify 40k, which means that additional book keeping is something I shy away from. I think Neurothropes are still pretty solid in that they unlock spirit leech.

How would you feel about given all MCs a 12" move by default, similar to GMCs? At the moment I think the "MC" creature type is pretty undervalued in comparison to gargantuan, flying and jump unit types.

I don't believe it would buff any powerhouse MCs even further because all the best ones are JMC or FMC so it would only benefit the rest of the field which is generally lacklustre.

I disagree, we would have to increase all the costs of actual MC by 30-50 points.

They are fine as they are, i don't find them undervalued (if costed accordingly).

Spoletta wrote:
They are fine as they are, i don't find them undervalued (if costed accordingly).

Can you give me some examples of MCs you think are costed correctly? I don't believe they are and that is why we only tend to see JMCs and FMCs being used in the majority of competitive lists.

A rule along the lines of the Tryanid Hierodule may be more appropriate instead;

- An MC can either move (if not gliding or jumping) twice and shoot 1 weapon, or move once and shoot 2 weapons

Thoughts?

Riptides, Dread Knights, Winged DP, Blood Thirsters, Great Unclean Ones, Flyrants, Wraith Knights (when they were MC's), Telos, and cronos are the MCs that see regular play. I've seen Dimacharons, but I think that is mainly because people haven't figured out it's weaknesses yet. More important than being fast is being survivable. TMC's just aren't very survivable.

They are supposed to be highly survivable, but the current meta is S7 from tau. S6 and rending from Eldar, S6 for Tyranids, Posion from DE, and Grav / S8 from SM, and big tarpits from Demons. So in many cases TMC's die about like a squad of space marines with an equivalent number of wounds. Zagman is trying to reduce the amount of high S shooting in the game. If he succeeds we might see normal TMC's again. Personally, I think the base TMC should change to T7 to accomdate the new age of High Strength shooting, but Zagman isn't comfortable with that type of wholesale change, so we will have to settle for a bit of a price decrease for now from him.

I expect the new Tyranid Codex from GW later this year. I imagine it will address the general uselessness of TMC's. Now that everyone bought flyrants GW will probably nerf them into oblivion like they did Tervigons and Hive Guard, and pick a new hotness.

Riptides - JMC
Dread Knights - JMC
Winged DP - FMC
Blood Thirsters - FMC
Great Unclean Ones - MC
Flyrants - FMC
Wraith Knights - JMC
Telos - is this FW? not sure
Cronos - MC

see the theme here is that the good MCs are mobile ones. pretty much everything else is not considered worth taking. I suppose the issue of getting slow units into combat is a game wide one - however MCs have no way of getting around this because they cannot be joined by an IC (i.e Gate of Infinity shenanigans)

Yeah, you can add Wraithlords to the slow MC's that don't see the tabletop too. Similar durability to last editions wraithknight, but too slow to provide any CC threats or move around for objective contesting

I would never give MC 12" movement. IMO I'd rather drop SH/GC movement down to 9" actually to close that gap. GW seems to think movement values must be in 6" intervals... The MC is a great unit type, it is just GW gave GMCs everything and charged them almost nothing for it. Free FNP(150% durability in most cases), 12" move, Poison Resistance, ID resistance, Stomp, and most GMCs aren't paying what they should for a lot of these abilities.

I've already given most of the ground MCs some kind of buff(cost reduction) while most of those "good" MCs now cost more.


GW keeps making faster and faster units and better and better guns, but the core of the game is still moving 6" or buying a transport. This gap is causing serious issues especially coupled with Maelstrom.


I would not expect GW to fix TMCs int he new dex, they failed to cost MCs appropriately for the last couple of editions and have a habbit of undervalueing wings and overvalueing a ground MC chassis. Don't expect this to change anytime soon.

Haha yeah, I feel like the consensus around the GW offices is that "T6 W6 AS3+... that's a tough mother!". And just forget about the fact that they threw in a bunch of high strength low ap shooting -_-

It all depends on the cost.
The Haruspex at 135 would be taken. It is a significant investment in terms of firepower to get rid of it.

If i can force a target that requires you to focus fire with a good chunk of your army for a total cost that is 7.2% of my army then it's ok.

Things don't necessarily need to remove enemy models to be useful in a game.

Edit: The problem is not in the high strength, an haruspex survives 6 missilesides firing at it. The problem is grav, which IMHO is a design mistake.

Spoletta wrote:
It all depends on the cost.
The Haruspex at 135 would be taken. It is a significant investment in terms of firepower to get rid of it.

If i can force a target that requires you to focus fire with a good chunk of your army for a total cost that is 7.2% of my army then it's ok.

Things don't necessarily need to remove enemy models to be useful in a game.

Edit: The problem is not in the high strength, an haruspex survives 6 missilesides firing at it. The problem is grav, which IMHO is a design mistake.

It takes 5 unbuffed missiles sides. Also a Riptide beats it in close combat. For 5 points more than a Dread Knight you are getting a slow MC that loses to most other MC's in close combat, and has a fraction of the damage output. I'm still not seeing it.

A dread knight does everything a Haruspex does better and cheaper. Why would I ever look at a Haruspex as a good usage of points in that context?

Spoletta wrote:
It all depends on the cost.
The Haruspex at 135 would be taken. It is a significant investment in terms of firepower to get rid of it.

If i can force a target that requires you to focus fire with a good chunk of your army for a total cost that is 7.2% of my army then it's ok.

Things don't necessarily need to remove enemy models to be useful in a game.

Edit: The problem is not in the high strength, an haruspex survives 6 missilesides firing at it. The problem is grav, which IMHO is a design mistake.

Grav is a major design mistake. Internally and externally. The Salvo and giving to relentless platforms was just insulting.

Spoletta wrote:
It all depends on the cost.
The Haruspex at 135 would be taken. It is a significant investment in terms of firepower to get rid of it.

If i can force a target that requires you to focus fire with a good chunk of your army for a total cost that is 7.2% of my army then it's ok.

Things don't necessarily need to remove enemy models to be useful in a game.

Edit: The problem is not in the high strength, an haruspex survives 6 missilesides firing at it. The problem is grav, which IMHO is a design mistake.

Even at 135 points the Haruspex wouldn't get taken - walking melee MCs with no shooting or force multipliers just don't have enough use in games even with the errata from Zagman taken into account.

Look at the FW giant chaos spawn for example, I've never seen it used in any of the battle reports I've read on dakka despite it being a super cheap MC at a fairly uncontested slot (chaos daemons heavy support) and only 80 points.

For reference, in comparison to the Haruspex it's stats are;

Pros
+1 WS
+D6 attacks resulting +2 attacks on average
Rage
+3 LD

Cons
-1 W
- 1 SV
- 1 S & Armourbane
- Acid blood
- Grasping tongue

tag8833 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
It all depends on the cost.
The Haruspex at 135 would be taken. It is a significant investment in terms of firepower to get rid of it.

If i can force a target that requires you to focus fire with a good chunk of your army for a total cost that is 7.2% of my army then it's ok.

Things don't necessarily need to remove enemy models to be useful in a game.

Edit: The problem is not in the high strength, an haruspex survives 6 missilesides firing at it. The problem is grav, which IMHO is a design mistake.

It takes 5 unbuffed missiles sides. Also a Riptide beats it in close combat. For 5 points more than a Dread Knight you are getting a slow MC that loses to most other MC's in close combat, and has a fraction of the damage output. I'm still not seeing it.

A dread knight does everything a Haruspex does better and cheaper. Why would I ever look at a Haruspex as a good usage of points in that context?

You are way off saying a a Riptide bests it in close Combat.

Riptide has 3 attacks, hits on 4s, wounds on 4. .75 Wounds
Haruspex has 3 attacks, hits on 3s, wounds on 3, and generates additional attacks. .88 Wounds through 5++ 1.14 Wounds after additional attacks.

Meaning on average the Haruspex heals more wounds than it receives. The Haruspex is Fearless and averages winning combat, with a Higher initiative it also is likely to seep the Riptide. The Haruspex wins even if we assume the Riptide gets its NovaShield every round.

The riptide is the worst CC MC in the game and a Haruspex (a dedicated CC MC) barely beats it, what odds are there of it actually causing enough wounds to force a sweep? If a riptide has FNP then even with additional attacks it only causes 0.76 wounds!

It is all moot anyway as a Haruspex would never catch a riptide to get into CC in the first place

tag8833 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
It all depends on the cost.
The Haruspex at 135 would be taken. It is a significant investment in terms of firepower to get rid of it.

If i can force a target that requires you to focus fire with a good chunk of your army for a total cost that is 7.2% of my army then it's ok.

Things don't necessarily need to remove enemy models to be useful in a game.

Edit: The problem is not in the high strength, an haruspex survives 6 missilesides firing at it. The problem is grav, which IMHO is a design mistake.

It takes 5 unbuffed missiles sides. Also a Riptide beats it in close combat. For 5 points more than a Dread Knight you are getting a slow MC that loses to most other MC's in close combat, and has a fraction of the damage output. I'm still not seeing it.

A dread knight does everything a Haruspex does better and cheaper. Why would I ever look at a Haruspex as a good usage of points in that context?

Actually it takes exactly 6.
48 missiles, 24 at S7 and 24 at S5. TL BS 3 means 18 hits for each. 12 Wounds from S7 and another 6 from S5. 18 wounds at 3+ is exactly 6 wounds...or i'm mistaking something and the Haruspex is 5W?

The fact that it gets owned in meele doesn't mean that the concept of slow walking meele MC is wrong, just that the stats are.