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I'm wondering what the likely rank(s) would be for an Officer of the Fleet in an Imperial Guard Company Command ?

My speculation is that it wouldn't be Captains through Admirals, because it's too low ball.

But at the same time, any old junior officer sounds unlikely too Because -

- The Officer of the Fleet would be the in-your-face face of the Imperial Navy in the Imperial Guard. Immersed in , and living cheek-by-jowl with the Guard, but not a part of it. So , for that reason alone, some considerable status would be preferable?

- For the same reason, while his job may be coordinating two bureaucracies and relaying orders, it is two different bureaucracies, and relaying orders can APPEAR like GIVING orders. So if he is not of sufficient status, Captains through Admirals might tend to get their feathers ruffled.

So my speculation is that the likely rank is Flag Lieutenant through Commander ?

with, possibly, it being used as a kind of sinecure for pensioners still in good health, but you don't , for whatever reason , want to put them in direct charge of things So, maybe, in that case , a few old Captains and Commodores ?

What do you think / know ?

________________________________

Since I'm already here, and the subject is the Imperial Navy ----

The few images I have seen of the Imperial Navy symbol are pretty crude and simple. The thingie in the middle looks like a automobile steering wheel . Maybe it's a stylized representation of a sun, a planet, a solar system ?
Anyone know what it is supposed to be ? Maybe there are some better images of it around ?

 KesaAnna wrote:
So my speculation is that the likely rank is Flag Lieutenant through Commander ?

with, possibly, it being used as a kind of sinecure for pensioners still in good health, but you don't , for whatever reason , want to put them in direct charge of things So, maybe, in that case , a few old Captains and Commodores ?

That does sound likely. No ship Captain is going to leave his ship to stand on the ground next to a groundpounder Colonel, much less an Admiral leave his fleet. But it has to be someone with a few years of command under his belt so the infantry takes him seriously. If it's a small fleet group supporting an invasion the senior Captain might have his XO or third serve as liason. Big fleets with an Admiral should have high-ranked command staff serving the Admiral directly so in that case it could be someone with higher grade who isn't directly commanding a ship. These might not be pensioners waiting to die but Admirals in the making who have moved up to the staff of a famous Admiral to get more experience in seeing the big picture.

 KesaAnna wrote:
But at the same time, any old junior officer sounds unlikely too Because -

- The Officer of the Fleet would be the in-your-face face of the Imperial Navy in the Imperial Guard. Immersed in , and living cheek-by-jowl with the Guard, but not a part of it. So , for that reason alone, some considerable status would be preferable?

- For the same reason, while his job may be coordinating two bureaucracies and relaying orders, it is two different bureaucracies, and relaying orders can APPEAR like GIVING orders. So if he is not of sufficient status, Captains through Admirals might tend to get their feathers ruffled.

I honestly think those sort of liaisons will be sipping brandy in a bunker somewhere far far behind the lines, anyone close enough to the front lines to be in any danger of being killed is going to be Lieutenant Junior Grade Nobody McNobody of the house of DeSposable. For a sense of scale Andy Chambers gave the crew of an Imperial *Light* Cruiser at 9,000-12,000 men, any officer of any seniority on any ship of the line is unlikely to set foot in a dirtside warzone without a couple of dozen armsmen in escort.

 Gashrog wrote:
I honestly think those sort of liaisons will be sipping brandy in a bunker somewhere far far behind the lines, anyone close enough to the front lines to be in any danger of being killed is going to be Lieutenant Junior Grade Nobody McNobody of the house of DeSposable.

Captain Kirk: All right men, this is a dangerous mission and it's likely one of us will be killed. The landing party will consist of myself, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Ah crap.

I would also like to posit that since a Company is going to be led by at least a Captain of the Imperial Guard, it would make most sense for the Coy OC to outrank the Naval attaché in their hierarchical equivalent if it's the Coy OC who's supposed to be calling the shots as to what support he wants the Navy Officer to provide and how. In the contemporary real world, a Naval Lieutenant is usually equivalent to an Army Captain (depending on country of course), so going off that, I'd say the Naval Officer would be a Sub-Lieutenant/Ensign. But maybe your Guard Officer would rather have a friend/relative working alongside them, especially older higher-ranking and well-connected Officers, in which case the ranks could be equivalent or the Navy Officer superior as they can trust each other to cooperate and get the job done.

I'm going to chip in here from my military experience. Typically, in an artillery unit, FOs (Forward Observers) are a junior officer, typically Lieutenant-grade. Same goes with JTACs (Joint Terminal Air Controllers), although I've seen the US military have NCOs as JTACs in some formations (Marines). I'd haphazard that the Imperial Navy wouldn't be too different, with a junior officer filling the role as an FO.

With regards to rank and positions, remember that even if the FO is the same rank as the coy OC (two Lieutenants or two Captains), the FO falls under the coy OC's command under the ORBAT, and thus defers to the OC's command. Conversely, the OC has to defer to the FO's better judgment when it comes to fire missions, because that's the FO's specialty, and its from an entirely different service that the fire mission is being requested from.

An IG company command squad is also not at all highly ranked. Important Imperial Navy officers would probably only be attached at regimental level.

Also, the officer of the fleet,and the Imperial navy by extension, are independent of the guard. So like Enigwolf said, the officer is probably a low grade commissioned officer, Lt. or possibly even Lt. Commander, but be high ranking enough to fit in the command structure. He is in charge of the support roles the orbital navy plays on the battle field, so he has to have enough command experience to facilitate that role. It is my understanding that warrant officers and 2nd lieutenants are little more than equerries and adjunct staff to higher ranking officers. but i could be wrong.

Enigwolf wrote: coy OC

Sturmtruppen wrote:Coy OC

Pardon me a second, Coy - is this a military shorthand for company, or..?

Furyou Miko wrote:

Enigwolf wrote: coy OC

Sturmtruppen wrote:Coy OC

Pardon me a second, Coy - is this a military shorthand for company, or..?

Yes, sorry. Coy is frequently used as a shorthand for company.

GKTiberius wrote:Also, the officer of the fleet,and the Imperial navy by extension, are independent of the guard. So like Enigwolf said, the officer is probably a low grade commissioned officer, Lt. or possibly even Lt. Commander, but be high ranking enough to fit in the command structure. He is in charge of the support roles the orbital navy plays on the battle field, so he has to have enough command experience to facilitate that role. It is my understanding that warrant officers and 2nd lieutenants are little more than equerries and adjunct staff to higher ranking officers. but i could be wrong.

Assuming that 40k IG armies are still pretty similar in structure to modern Western armies, 2nd Lieutenants can serve as 2IC's/Deputies to battalion staff officers, or as platoon commanders on the ground. Typically, officers see a rotation between command and staff roles during their career in order to expose them to the different facets of a military force. I'd reckon that a 1st Lieutenant would be attached at the company level for FO duties, while a Lt. Commander or Commander would be attached at the Battalion and Regimental level as fleet liaisons.

Keep in mind that the OotF is coordinating on behalf of the company commander, he's not just making up his decisions.

There are always charts that indicate "equivalent" ranks between the enlisted and officer ranks of various branches of a national military, I don't see why the Imperium would be any different.

Here's a guide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_comparative_military_ranks

And for Imperial ranks, see Lexicanum - Guard ranks here, Navy ranks here.

I can't remember exactly where it was mentioned, but I recall something to the effect that in cases where there were similar ranks that the Imperial Guard were considered to be superior to Navy ranks.

For example: If there was a military campaign with Navy and Guard elements, led by a High Admiral and a Lord General respectively, the Lord General would be the officer to assume command over the entire campaign. Even in cases where the Admiral might seriously outrank the General in terms of equivalency.

Probably because a Navy Officer is not intended to lead or command ground-forces in combat. Naval assets are there to support a ground force, and thus the Admiral's role is subordinate to the Lord General's, as it is the Lord General who is ultimately responsible for the mission they are being sent on.

If it was a purely Naval mission, the IG would not even be present.,

Ok I don't buy this. How can you claim that the same battle that contains chapter masters, draigo, inquisitors, or daemon princes isn't important enough to have an admiral come lead some troops?

Because Admirals command ships, not ground troops.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Because Admirals command ships, not ground troops.

They do if an inquisitor tells him to.

Of course logically I agree with you in that it would be pragmatic to send a junior / slightly seasoned officer in order to preserve the higher ranking officers experience for their professional field.

When has logic prevailed in the grim dark that is warhammer?

My personal belief? The officer of the fleet's rank can vary based off of the rank of the ground commander he is attending.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Because Admirals command ships, not ground troops.

They do if an inquisitor tells him to.

Of course logically I agree with you in that it would be pragmatic to send a junior / slightly seasoned officer in order to preserve the higher ranking officers experience for their professional field.

When has logic prevailed in the grim dark that is warhammer?

My personal belief? The officer of the fleet's rank can vary based off of the rank of the ground commander he is attending.

Inquisitors aren't retards. Even an inquisitor can be executed for wasting the Emperor's assets. The Imperium is not logical, but neither is it stupid. You can be pretty sure an admiral never leaves his ship (most Imperial Navy personnel have never set foot on a planet), he would be utterly useless commanding ground troops and it makes no sense to second an admiral to an IG regiment. There is nothing an admiral could do in such a position that a lieutenant also could not do. Besides, such a request would most likely see the admiral being highly uncooperative. It would probably take a lot of overwhelming force to convince one to leave his precious flagship.

Actually the Imperium is very logical. Brutally so. They make the best decisions given the utterly gakky situation the galaxy is in.

40k wouldn't be fixed if someone with logic and level headed decision making came along, those people exist and they've made the best of a very bad situation.

Admirals have no training or experience fighting ground combats. They fight in space, and when ground pounders tell them to bombard specific ground coordinates they do it. Thats all the experience they have in ground warfare.

The OotF is almost certainly an aviator and a junior officer (O-1 to O-3. Aside from the trip in the only interaction guard meat bags have with the fleet is via tactical aviation. In BFG terms he'd be an ordnance pilot, in 40k parlance a thunderbolt, marauder, lighting, etc pilot. I say that because his in game effect is interdicting reserves, which is primarily a tacair job, so it's extremely likely that he is a tacair guy so that he can speak the language to the guys he's calling in. Having it be some plasma reactor engineering officer or something would be pretty pointless and you can bet your ass the IN isn't going to put a captain or a commander on the ground to call in CAS for some imminently replaceable guardsmen. So he's almost definitely a junior officer, and was probably grounded for some reason, flight violation, health issue, fooling around with too navy female crew, whatever. Or it could be that since the campaigns last years it's just a dude who got shot down and now is tagging along with the infantry company that rescued him. I think that's the coolest approach, personally

 Silverthorne wrote:
The OotF is almost certainly an aviator and a junior officer (O-1 to O-3. Aside from the trip in the only interaction guard meat bags have with the fleet is via tactical aviation. In BFG terms he'd be an ordnance pilot, in 40k parlance a thunderbolt, marauder, lighting, etc pilot. I say that because his in game effect is interdicting reserves, which is primarily a tacair job, so it's extremely likely that he is a tacair guy so that he can speak the language to the guys he's calling in.y

I partially agree with this, only in terms of that if it's in the sense of using Naval aviation elements as we see in the 40k rules. However, we also have seen in lore and in books that Fleet officers attached to the HQ elements of Guard companies and regiments are also the ones who call down orbital bombardments, which we don't see in tabletop because we have the Master of Ordnance for that, which brings me to my next point...

 Silverthorne wrote:
So he's almost definitely a junior officer, and was probably grounded for some reason, flight violation, health issue, fooling around with too navy female crew, whatever. Or it could be that since the campaigns last years it's just a dude who got shot down and now is tagging along with the infantry company that rescued him. I think that's the coolest approach, personally

Uhm, no. JTACs and FOs are very specialized fields that requires the ability to think as a ground-pounder and as a support element, and very high marks on theory (being able to correct for wind, etc.) as well as attention to detail.

Gee, I figured folks would find this question so dull or so obscure , or so obscure and dull , that it would die.

I'm learnin all kinds of interesting stuff !

 KesaAnna wrote:
Gee, I figured folks would find this question so dull or so obscure , or so obscure and dull , that it would die.

I'm learnin all kinds of interesting stuff !

I've served in the Army before, in a HQ element no less, with cadre-mates who went on to be JTACs and FOs so this is a question very close to my heart.

I'm building a near - all female company of the 252nd Kauravan Conservator Regiment, and I found this non- GW female figure who, with minor cosmetic changes, would pass rather well as an Officer of the Fleet.
Now she's a figure of particular interest to me because it's precisely the sort of thing that most seems to interest me ; bureaucracies, logistics, guys with ink pens on battlefields.
Like, sure I like tanks , but I really salivate over field kitchens and combat bridging equipment, communications and command vehicles.
In my private fluff , she's primarily ( still ) in the job because she likes the job. She likes being in the Navy, but she sorta also gets to be in the Guard. Coordinating air strikes is interesting , she gets to save someones bacon therebye sometimes , there's a feeling of being at the center of things, but without the pressure of trying to climb the career ladder to get a ship, and then the pressure of being in command of a ship. Coordinating an air strike that brings a @#$%& storm down on the enemies head is power enough.

Sounds pretty cool.

My guess is the OotF is probably a specialized position solely dedicated to providing artillery support. Each ship has a couple that they send down with the troops they are assigned to support and this guy is the one who sends up the call for bombardment and air support. So he's both specially trained and at the same time isn't a vital officer position that could potentially get killed.

'cept that the OotF isn't into booms at all, all he does is manage reserves.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Because Admirals command ships, not ground troops.

They do if an inquisitor tells him to.

Of course logically I agree with you in that it would be pragmatic to send a junior / slightly seasoned officer in order to preserve the higher ranking officers experience for their professional field.

When has logic prevailed in the grim dark that is warhammer?

My personal belief? The officer of the fleet's rank can vary based off of the rank of the ground commander he is attending.

No, no they don't. Not since the Heresy has the Navy and Imperial Army (Guard) been allowed to be linked together in such a way. This prevents a single commander who falls to Chaos to have a standing ground army *and* the ability to transport them off a planet. This way, if an Admiral turns traitor, they have no means to actually capture a planet. They can certainly engage in space battles and piracy, but lack the means to seize a world. By the same token, a Lord General who betrays the Imperium is stuck on the ground, and is subject to a loyalist Admiral flying up and just bombing the gak out of him and his forces from orbit.

"Divided, we stand" is a slogan for the Imperium, referencing the way in which its bureaucratic systems, in just about every aspect of it, watch every other for signs of heresy.

The OoTF is just for adjusting Reserves rolls, which to me implies that he's relaying orbital reconnaissance data or coordinating dropships to ferry troops down from orbit. Both jobs for a specialized junior officer, I would think, and one whose primary expertise is in logistics rather than any sort of naval or ground combat.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
'cept that the OotF isn't into booms at all, all he does is manage reserves.

Ahh right. Mixed up names.