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 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
wow, never realized that Drop Pods actually had Deep Strike Reserve rule, just thought half had to go in reserve.

This sort of mitigates the rule somewhat, but not if you go first and all the dreads/pods are destroyed by opponent on Turn 1.Not that difficult to do, especially since you'll probably only have 1 or 2 dreads actually arrive.

Each Dread and pod makes for a separate target. Drop in your own deployment done and get some cover. Possibly disembark behind the pods to stay out of LOS.

kind of sucks though, having to hide your dreads just so you don't auto lose.
Still think the RW/DW combo will be best option.

 Brillow80 wrote:
Greenwing Command squads got a boost in that any can take from the speical weapons list.

Give them grav-guns with a Sacred Standard (relentless, counter-attack) to unlock the Salvo 3 max range.

Mix and match gear/transports/IC for some sick sick stuff:
Apothecary and/or SS for 3++ or Azreal for 2+/4++ tank
Slot in Lions Blade Detachment for full Ballistics on overwatch...that is a freaking nasty unit for counter charge.
Double up the Demi-companies for double the fun with free pods...(probably not feasible points wise)
Prescience librarian to twin link!?

DW Command squad Apoth went down to the cost of 1 MB, I didn't notice that before.

Banner costs as much as bikes for the whole squad does in C:SM so while you can embark in a transport with this setup I think its slightly worse than a C:SM command squad on bikes.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Can someone explain to me why if you take Venerable Dreadnought with the Deathwing Strike Force that you couldn't just drop them turn 1 and not auto-lose?

because the formation rule dictates that ALL units must start in Deep Strike Reserve so nothing will appear until Turn 2.

Obviously, just ally this formation with a Skyhammer Annihilation Force that drops on Turn 1.

Not the formation, the Strike Force. The strike force does not arrive as one.

no, but the earliest it can arrive is Turn 2, even Drop pod dreads.

why? Nothing in the Strike Force says anything about ignoring Drop Pod Assault, which would put half the pods in on turn one. What you are saying is only true of the formation.

Deathwing Strike Force

Summoned to War

All units in the detachment must start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. emphasis mine

doesn't matter if you have drop Pods, the rule indicates that all units must start in deep Strike Reserve. Not sure what makes you see that any differently.

Drop pods ALWAYS start in Deep Strike Reserve. This changes nothing. They still gain the effect of Drop Pod Assault and half come in turn one.

That's how I read it. Sure it can't be PURE Terminators without losing, but you probably weren't doing that anyway. The army itself is at least MUCH more, well, less terrible.

Whilst I am sympathetic to those who want to play nothing but DW terminator squads and now can only do so via Unbound, I think overall DW got better - as long as you use them in concert with other formations.

Basic DW squads got cheaper, they can run and shoot when they deep strike so they don't get murdered by plasma blasts, they don't scatter at all if they DS within 12" of that Ravenwing formation, and DWKs got ap3 so their maces are less inflatable.

Plus with the ridonk durability of that RW formation, it's pretty easy to plonk a couple of bike squads on the table, turbo-boost them into the enemy's face, laugh when they try to shoot the bikes, then have fun with a bunch of pinpoint accuracy deep strikes full of twin-linked terminator death.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Whilst I am sympathetic to those who want to play nothing but DW terminator squads and now can only do so via Unbound, I think overall DW got better - as long as you use them in concert with other formations.

Basic DW squads got cheaper, they can run and shoot when they deep strike so they don't get murdered by plasma blasts, they don't scatter at all if they DS within 12" of that Ravenwing formation, and DWKs got ap3 so their maces are less inflatable.

Plus with the ridonk durability of that RW formation, it's pretty easy to plonk a couple of bike squads on the table, turbo-boost them into the enemy's face, laugh when they try to shoot the bikes, then have fun with a bunch of pinpoint accuracy deep strikes full of twin-linked terminator death.

Exactly. Deathwing and Ravenwing are meant to work together. Can't really fault GW for making the Dark Angels more in keeping with their background. Who DOESN'T want a load of T5 Astartes in their army?!

So what are DA power build going to now? I see 3 possible ones:

1) Strongest combo. That is a no brainer, there are so many interactions now between the 2 detachments that is almost silly. This is most assuredly our first power build.

2) White scars alike list. We now have grav on bikes, so we can try to make a biker list really similar with a few key differences:
a) Our bikes cost a bit more
b) Our bikes have no skilled rider or +1HoW.
c) We got black knights
d) We reroll jink.
e) Sammy Tax costs 50 more but is better than Khan tax.
f) Darkshrouds are gold with rerollable 2+ jink.
g) All our bikes are teleport homers.
h) We overwatch at BS2.
All considered the full RW build is doable and is a balanced alternative to a WS build.

3) Lion's blade. This is a parking lot list, similar to the SM one. Key differences are no tactical doctrines, full BS overwatch and poddable grav command squads (with counterattack and full BS on grav overwatch). If assault keeps increasing in importance, this again will become a balanced alternative to SM full companies.

So, deathwing only get twin linked if they are in the detachment, and ravenwing only get their bonuses in the detachment?

so if you want to take a cad, all your stuff you used to have got nerfed in the deathwing department, and are the same in the ravenwing one.

So dual wing is the way to go?

Edit: the lions blade is worse than the gladius; chapter tactics on top of the doctrines beats full BS overwatch, especially since most power armies don't really assault anymore.

That, and marines can take pod gravs too... Though I suppose the dark Angels one will get 5 extra shots, while the marine one will reroll ones.

My opinion, at least.

Vengeful Strike (twin-linked) is not tied to the special detachment, all models in Terminator armour have it.

Ravenwing get re-roll jink all the time, too, not just in their special detachment.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Edit: the lions blade is worse than the gladius; chapter tactics on top of the doctrines beats full BS overwatch, especially since most power armies don't really assault anymore.

That's my opinion too. Will be interesting to see after SW, Orks, Demons, CSM, DE and Tyranids has been redone what will be the new situation on assault armies. After all we are starting to see some interesting effects around, like ignore overwatch (which would be bad...).

Also, i think i'm in love with the 3 landspeeder + DShroud formation. Get an heavy bolter on each speeder and you have a 245 point unit with 9 HP, rerollable 2+ cover in front (3+ on speeders) with BS 5 21 shots S5 AP4 and interceptor. If you are in the lion's blade those same 21 shots are going at full BS overwatch on any ravenwing assaulter in 24.

Spoletta wrote:
Also, i think i'm in love with the 3 landspeeder + DShroud formation. Get an heavy bolter on each speeder and you have a 245 point unit with 9 HP, rerollable 2+ cover in front (3+ on speeders) with BS 5 21 shots S5 AP4 and interceptor. If you are in the lion's blade those same 21 shots are going at full BS overwatch on any ravenwing assaulter in 24.

Make them Typhoons - it'll cost more, but that way you get MLs for Interceptor on your opponents turn, then you can use the Heavy Bolters on your own.

Honestly i like seeing all three wings working together it's really cool and fluffy.

I'm so glad the DA have been given a boost it looks like it's time for me too strip my DA and have a re-paint sesh to get ready to play!!

Spoletta wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Edit: the lions blade is worse than the gladius; chapter tactics on top of the doctrines beats full BS overwatch, especially since most power armies don't really assault anymore.

That's my opinion too. Will be interesting to see after SW, Orks, Demons, CSM, DE and Tyranids has been redone what will be the new situation on assault armies. After all we are starting to see some interesting effects around, like ignore overwatch (which would be bad...).

Also, i think i'm in love with the 3 landspeeder + DShroud formation. Get an heavy bolter on each speeder and you have a 245 point unit with 9 HP, rerollable 2+ cover in front (3+ on speeders) with BS 5 21 shots S5 AP4 and interceptor. If you are in the lion's blade those same 21 shots are going at full BS overwatch on any ravenwing assaulter in 24.

No grim resolve so no over watch at full BS. STill its a quite nifty formation

The formation gives Grim Resolve.

Edit: And the unit gets scout from the DShroud. Looking better and better.

Squared it away with our local group and we've allowed rw to have other characters and given the rw rule, we also allowed bob and other terminator characters to unlock dw as troops, house-rule edition strikes again, and since I run the tournaments were going to test it in the upcoming one, if it is op we will just keep it as the book states.

Not a rumour but I suggest others talk to their groups and see what they are happy with.

 Formosa wrote:
Squared it away with our local group and we've allowed rw to have other characters and given the rw rule, we also allowed bob and other terminator characters to unlock dw as troops, house-rule edition strikes again, and since I run the tournaments were going to test it in the upcoming one, if it is op we will just keep it as the book states.

Not a rumour but I suggest others talk to their groups and see what they are happy with.

I guess this goes without saying, but remember to remove the deathwing rule from those chars getting a bike.

Apart from that i don't think it will be OP.

CAD played with unlocks will be in line with pre necron codices. RW + DW will be in line with post necron stuff.

Spoletta wrote:
I guess this goes without saying, but remember to remove the deathwing rule from those chars getting a bike.

Apart from that i don't think it will be OP.

Seems to me that might be an easy house rule to implement (and maybe GW might even FAQ it this way) - Characters equipped with a bike must replace the Deathwing special rule with the Ravenwing special rule.

tedurur wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Edit: the lions blade is worse than the gladius; chapter tactics on top of the doctrines beats full BS overwatch, especially since most power armies don't really assault anymore.

That's my opinion too. Will be interesting to see after SW, Orks, Demons, CSM, DE and Tyranids has been redone what will be the new situation on assault armies. After all we are starting to see some interesting effects around, like ignore overwatch (which would be bad...).

Also, i think i'm in love with the 3 landspeeder + DShroud formation. Get an heavy bolter on each speeder and you have a 245 point unit with 9 HP, rerollable 2+ cover in front (3+ on speeders) with BS 5 21 shots S5 AP4 and interceptor. If you are in the lion's blade those same 21 shots are going at full BS overwatch on any ravenwing assaulter in 24.

No grim resolve so no over watch at full BS. STill its a quite nifty formation

Look again at the formation special rules.

Spoletta wrote:
The formation gives Grim Resolve.

Edit: And the unit gets scout from the DShroud. Looking better and better.

Missed that. Its indeed looking nice

 Death By Monkeys wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I guess this goes without saying, but remember to remove the deathwing rule from those chars getting a bike.

Apart from that i don't think it will be OP.

Seems to me that might be an easy house rule to implement (and maybe GW might even FAQ it this way) - Characters equipped with a bike must replace the Deathwing special rule with the Ravenwing special rule.

I missed that but bloody good points, I could be a gw writer with my level of English!

 Death By Monkeys wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I guess this goes without saying, but remember to remove the deathwing rule from those chars getting a bike.

Apart from that i don't think it will be OP.

Seems to me that might be an easy house rule to implement (and maybe GW might even FAQ it this way) - Characters equipped with a bike must replace the Deathwing special rule with the Ravenwing special rule.

And why exectly should they lose Deathwing rule? Interrogator-Chaplains and Librarainas are all in Inner Circle anyway.

Cause the codex is built around the concept that a model is either one or the other. The fact that there are models which are both could easily break some rules.
Also, you are giving out for free: fearless, hatred (csm), deepstrike and a nice lot of synergies.

Not to mention that i would immediately exploit it by deepstriking a bike guy together with the termie, so i could put him in front and jink away all incoming hits. Yes i can do it anyway once they are on land, but at least let's make it a bit difficult no?

I mean it would remove their counter in the form of Iontides. Oh too bad, all the S8Ap2 you scored on my clumped intercepted termies were jinked away, and the ones that passed were on a T5 model. Your marker drones and pathfinders should really learn to intercept next time.

Feerless and Hatred should remain, look ant Sammael, I agree with deepstriking part, but to deepstrike they should have terminator armour also, so I don't see a big issue.

In the DW detachment you don't need termi armor to deep strike. Only the formation requires termie armors.

After further digesting this book, it isn't going to roll over Eldar or Tau, but it will put the hurt on most other armies. Necrons and Ravenwing are the new armies from hell in terms of how much fire they can soak up.

To be honest, I don't really think the Lions Blade formation is that good, and especially not compared to it's C:SM counter part. If you are looking for a competitive build, it's ravenwing with an allied sky hammer formation. If they ever get to FAQing the ravenwing special rule for other HQ units, then a straight ravenwing build will actually work nicely. Needs to have access to psykers for some psychic defense and invisibility to compete with the big boys.

Overall, I am mildly pleased. I think a lot of opportunities were missed, but overall the codex improved.

Looking at the leaked rules, I'm a bit sad there's no Scout formation. So I can't take Deathwing and just add Scouts to make this work, I take it? Unless I use the Marine formation.

 Commissar Merces wrote:
After further digesting this book, it isn't going to roll over Eldar or Tau, but it will put the hurt on most other armies. Necrons and Ravenwing are the new armies from hell in terms of how much fire they can soak up.

To be honest, I don't really think the Lions Blade formation is that good, and especially not compared to it's C:SM counter part. If you are looking for a competitive build, it's ravenwing with an allied sky hammer formation. If they ever get to FAQing the ravenwing special rule for other HQ units, then a straight ravenwing build will actually work nicely. Needs to have access to psykers for some psychic defense and invisibility to compete with the big boys.

Overall, I am mildly pleased. I think a lot of opportunities were missed, but overall the codex improved.

In the world of 3 detachments I see raven wing detachment with the 3 speeder plus darkshroud formation and either a space marine detachment or death wing assault.
The bikes all scout and turbo boost turn one with jink and full bs shooting for the turn.
The darkshroud unit scouts and stays within 6in of the unit for stealth (2+ reroll jink) and immunity to overwatch for any unit within 6in and then insane combined overwatch at bs2, 24in range and interceptor with ML spam.
Bikes are set for a turn 2 charge and deliver scatter less death wing assault that can move and fire and has a shield wall for t5 marines. Everything with bs2-3 or full bs for overwatch.

 tydrace wrote:
Looking at the leaked rules, I'm a bit sad there's no Scout formation. So I can't take Deathwing and just add Scouts to make this work, I take it? Unless I use the Marine formation.

Look again - Your scout formation is even better since you don't have to bring 3 units. It's called the 10th Company Support formation and contains 1-5 Scout units. And you can bring that as often as you want.

Easiest way out, point wise, is allying in inquisition.
But i'd really suggest to just include one RW attack formation, more survivable and definitely more useful. 95 points and you get 2 12" teleport homers with rerollable jink.

nekooni wrote:

 tydrace wrote:
Looking at the leaked rules, I'm a bit sad there's no Scout formation. So I can't take Deathwing and just add Scouts to make this work, I take it? Unless I use the Marine formation.

Look again - Your scout formation is even better since you don't have to bring 3 units. It's called the 10th Company Support formation and contains 1-5 Scout units. And you can bring that as often as you want.

I did, but we have no scout formation. We can take scouts as 10th Company Support in a Lion's Blade, but then you need a Demi-Company. I'm looking for a way to use scouts along with just a Deathwing Redemption Force or Deathwing Strike Force. (Best option I'm seeing so far is allying in some Raven Guard scouts, sure you need three squads but they do get Shrouded on Turn 1, which can mean survival).

gungo wrote:

 Commissar Merces wrote:
After further digesting this book, it isn't going to roll over Eldar or Tau, but it will put the hurt on most other armies. Necrons and Ravenwing are the new armies from hell in terms of how much fire they can soak up.

To be honest, I don't really think the Lions Blade formation is that good, and especially not compared to it's C:SM counter part. If you are looking for a competitive build, it's ravenwing with an allied sky hammer formation. If they ever get to FAQing the ravenwing special rule for other HQ units, then a straight ravenwing build will actually work nicely. Needs to have access to psykers for some psychic defense and invisibility to compete with the big boys.

Overall, I am mildly pleased. I think a lot of opportunities were missed, but overall the codex improved.

In the world of 3 detachments I see raven wing detachment with the 3 speeder plus darkshroud formation and either a space marine detachment or death wing assault.
The bikes all scout and turbo boost turn one with jink and full bs shooting for the turn.
The darkshroud unit scouts and stays within 6in of the unit for stealth (2+ reroll jink) and immunity to overwatch for any unit within 6in and then insane combined overwatch at bs2, 24in range and interceptor with ML spam.
Bikes are set for a turn 2 charge and deliver scatter less death wing assault that can move and fire and has a shield wall for t5 marines. Everything with bs2-3 or full bs for overwatch.

Where are you getting the 2+ from? Ravenwing bikes are not skilled riders so have a 4+ standard and the dark shroud only gives stealth if I am not mistaken.

Skyhammer formation can be taken on its own correct? You wouldn't need three detachments, just two.