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Made in us
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Given the way the meta has shifted, I feel guard has gotten better.

I feel we have a solid matchup vs Eldar, tau and daemons, if we run a lot of russes, wyverns, mech vets with plasma and vendettas with some skiitari dropping in with either plasma or haywire.

What do you folks think?



" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon






AV14 is a big help, sure, since I agree the meta is predominately S6-8 spam in the form of Scatbikes, Imperial Knights with Gatling Cannons, Flyrants, Fire Raptors and such, but there's still a lot there that isn't that great. Pask in a Punisher fits into that meta perfectly fine and is able to withstand being hit by the equivalent, but you're losing out on a lot of mobility and I think that keeps Guard from being any tier higher than they used to be. Adding Skitarii does help against Vehicles but again, not solid enough to bump them up a tier level.

More competitive, sure. Competitive enough to be considered something special, still no.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

I don't see how IG are more competitive now than they were before, they haven't gotten any better and competing armies certainly aren't worse.

AV14 is not that big a threat for most armies. There's more tools out there than ever for dealing with it. Commonly available Destroyer weapons, Gauss, increasingly available Haywire weapons, Grav weapons with tons of shots, increasingly available S10 weaponry, etc, all means AV14 has more to fear than ever before, and existing tools like meltaguns certainly haven't gone anywhere.

Wyverns are useful, but only against certain targets. Mechvets aren't anything new, they're just the only functional IG troops units left aside from Blobs really since they did nothing to improve the infantry aside from making support characters better and drastically increased the price of running them mechanized.

Adding Skitarii adds a boost, but that's not really making IG more competitive, that's just taking something that isn't IG.

There's nothing new in the IG field, and the tools to deal with IG have only gotten better.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't see how IG are more competitive now than they were before, they haven't gotten any better and competing armies certainly aren't worse.

AV14 is not that big a threat for most armies. There's more tools out there than ever for dealing with it. Commonly available Destroyer weapons, Gauss, increasingly available Haywire weapons, Grav weapons with tons of shots, increasingly available S10 weaponry, etc, all means AV14 has more to fear than ever before, and existing tools like meltaguns certainly haven't gone anywhere.

Wyverns are useful, but only against certain targets. Mechvets aren't anything new, they're just the only functional IG troops units left aside from Blobs really since they did nothing to improve the infantry aside from making support characters better and drastically increased the price of running them mechanized.

Adding Skitarii adds a boost, but that's not really making IG more competitive, that's just taking something that isn't IG.

There's nothing new in the IG field, and the tools to deal with IG have only gotten better.


The AV thing is a big problem. The most durable vehicles are the ones that have a save not the ones with a high AV. Land Raiders, Russes, Monoliths are all not that hard to deal. Especially when you consider their points cost. And you are right, there are new weapons that have made it easy to kill those vehicles now.

Meanwhile jinking skimmers last forever. Snap shooting is better than being a wreck.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Exactly. Saves matter far more than AV. That's evidenced by how well Knights do, as well as the Skimmer/non-Skimmer gap that GW had finally rid itself of in 5th came right back with 6th and 7th.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Why not move strategically behind terrain?



" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

No, Guard have not gotten any better.

We still lack mobility, moreso than any army. That's a big bad in an edition focussed on mobility.

Our High AV vehicles are getting easier and easier to deal with, without becoming cheaper or "better".

Our infantry are becoming increasingly outclassed by other, more mobile infantry. There's no comparison between a squad of Guardsmen with Guns and a trio of Scatter Bikes. Nothing at all. Scatter bikes completely annihilate EVERYTHING GUARD except Russes. For that, they have Fire Dragons and Wraith units in Serps. We suck a mighty fine pickle, right now.

If we had a "bike" unit that wasn't Rough Riders, we'd be somewhat more competitive.

I suppose the reason to NOT move around behind terrain, is that we want to shoot stuff? Stuff that's jump-shoot-jumping behind terrain? Stuff that moves so fast we can't get it into LOS?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/23 00:57:42


 
   
Made in us
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Move 25% obscured behind terrain.

You can still see your target, and with camo cloaks, you're getting pretty sweet cover.

Mobility? Turn one shove your chimeras up 12" at cruising speed, then flAt out 6.

Need backfield objectives? Punish enemy lines with barrage then parachute it some troops via vendetta/Valkyrie.



" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Why not move strategically behind terrain?
That's a rather gross oversimplification. Of course you will do so when you can.

Terrain isn't always available. There's lots of ways to bypass it (outflanking, drop pods, simple movement, Ignores Cover weapons/powers/orders/etc). It's also not like IG tanks are particularly fast and can't always hop from cover to cover. One might not be able to remain behind cover and engage the targets one needs to.



 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Move 25% obscured behind terrain.
Not always available where you need it.


You can still see your target, and with camo cloaks, you're getting pretty sweet cover.
Which is an additional cost and requires the above to be available when and where you need it.


Mobility? Turn one shove your chimeras up 12" at cruising speed, then flAt out 6.
And that's typically the best way to lose those chimeras and the infantry they're holding in most games. It's not simply a matter of inherent speed, but the ability to get them where they need to be and not have them simply die. Then of course we have things like Russ tanks that can't move very fast at all.

IG also have to contend with movement cutting down on firepower much more than other armies. Most vehicles in other armies aren't reliant on using multiple weapons the way many IG vehicles are, or have ways of mitigating that (e.g. being Fast). If a Wyvern or Hydra move, they lose more than half the value of their firepower for instance.

Need backfield objectives? Punish enemy lines with barrage then parachute it some troops via vendetta/Valkyrie.
Which is grossly oversimplifying how that normally works.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






All of the above is simple.

Just do it.



" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

I take it you don't play Guard much, huh?

Started off with Guard being more competitive, and now we've moved to, "Guard playerz muzt be stoopit, bee-caws they's not wiinninns. Itz Eeezee." What's the point of the thread, other than to say that?

All of the above. We're fragile anywhere within assault range. 6 Tactical Marines, with their wicked Krak Grenades, can wreck a Chimera in one round. 6 Bolt Pistols have a 50% chance to inflict 1+ HP. That doesn't even factor in a 33% chance to put a HP on with a Krak Grenade in the shooting phase. 6 Marines attacking in assault with Krak grenades inflict, on average, 2 HP. That's a pretty good chance that a Chimera is getting wrecked in a single turn, from basic grunts without dedicated AT weapons. More often than not, that Chimera is going down in a single round to 6 MEQ with Pistols and Grenades.

Once the boys are on the ground, life expectancy is painfully short. I mean, they're dead men walking.

Cover? Flamers. Assault. Ig-Co weapons of various flavours.


7th edition prevents us from having a guaranteed Objective in our deployment zone in many missions, because objectives are placed before deployment type is even generated. If we take sit'n'shoot units, they can be mostly ignored in many games simply because they have no objectives to control. Kill the stuff that can move out to claim objectives, ignore the stuff that can't move to get you. If we play a fully mobile force that moves faster than 6" a turn, we're reduced to snap shots at everything.

So we move forward "fast". We lose the advantage of most of our long range weaponry that we pay a premium for. We have to snap shot it, which cripples our offensive power. We do this, and expose ourselves more quickly to our greatest weakness, assault. So to achieve win conditions, we must play against our strength [sit back with long range firepower] and expose ourselves to our greatest weakness [assault], while intentionally weakening our offensive power.

To go grab objectives.

Yeah, super competitive.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/23 05:27:01


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Rushing objectives with mecha vets means dead mecha vets on next turn and opponent getting free firstblood. Most of the good armies are made to deal with stuff like knights or Mutli wound MC. a normal russ just dies too fast , even when it has cover and it is not always so.

But then again maybe we are getting trolled here.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





West Chester, PA

I've got to disagree with most of the folks here. The change to the vehicle damage table has been a massive buff to IG vehicles. Ap - can never explode, Ap 2 explodes vehicles 50% as often (effectively a 4+ save), Ap 1 explodes vehicles 33% less than in 6th (effectively a 5+ save). Leman Russ tanks received a massive price cut, the punisher, executioner, and eradicator are now very good choices.

Veterans are 10 points cheaper, probably the cheapest BS4 unit in the game, and can take 3 special weapons plus can get stealth, and all that in a troops choice. That's pretty freaking good.

The wyvern is OP for 65 points, without a doubt. I've stopped taking it in my casual games because it's too powerful, and slows down the game a lot.

Guard have access to the cheapest psykers in the game. Astropaths, primaris, and wyrdvanes stack your power pool and can eat perils rolls, who cares if you lose 2 wyrdvanes to a perils attack? You can then use those buffs on tank squadrons or infantry blobs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/23 14:19:19


"Bringer of death, speak your name, For you are my life, and the foe's death." - Litany of the Lasgun

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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




ton of haywire, D stuff, and armies are build to counter more resilient skimmers and knights. How does that help a chimera or anything else IG survive.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Florida

I think the most "competitive" guard builds at the moment are mostly relying on blob builds with little armor. Run blobs forward for board control and put orders on your earthshaker artilleries. We still have no answer to decurion builds and wraithnights. But i think most other armies suffer in that department as well.

Imperial Guard  
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 TheSilo wrote:
I've got to disagree with most of the folks here. The change to the vehicle damage table has been a massive buff to IG vehicles. Ap - can never explode, Ap 2 explodes vehicles 50% as often (effectively a 4+ save), Ap 1 explodes vehicles 33% less than in 6th (effectively a 5+ save). Leman Russ tanks received a massive price cut, the punisher, executioner, and eradicator are now very good choices.
It's not the damage table that IG has to worry about typically, it's HP loss. That situation is no different than in 6th. This change in the vehicle damage table also adversely effects IG, as it reduces the power of big heavy anti-tank guns to kill tanks (as IG often rely on) in favor of lighter multi-shot weapons and weapons that ignore AV to inflict HP damage. HP stripping weapons have exploded in both availability and capability. D weapons, Haywire, Gauss, multishot Grav weapons, etc.

And while some Russ variants got cheaper, the Ordnance russ tanks remain only semi-functional and largely overcosted, while the Executioner got borked such that it's likely to kill itself over a 6 turn game with typical kit without enemy assistance. Meanwhile, IG lost several armored units (Medusa, Colossus, Griffon), others that were overcosted (e.g. Hellhound variants) didn't get any help there (much like IG platoon units such as heavy weapons squads), and others got nerfs based on 5E performance ~5 or 6 weeks before 7E's release (chimera, manticore).

Veterans are 10 points cheaper, probably the cheapest BS4 unit in the game, and can take 3 special weapons plus can get stealth, and all that in a troops choice. That's pretty freaking good.
And their mandatory Chimera is 10pts more with fewer firing ports for their special weapons. For the most part they're the same as they were 6 years ago. Doctrines are a bit cheaper, but probably 90% of IG lists I see (in person, in battle reports, and in army list forums) don't use them.

The wyvern is OP for 65 points, without a doubt. I've stopped taking it in my casual games because it's too powerful, and slows down the game a lot.
Sure, but that also relies on you using your HS slots for it (which have all the units you need for long range anti-tank, anti-MC, anti-air, AV-14, etc), which often are needed for other tasks, which is why dual CAD is so necessary for competitive IG, and many tournaments do not allow dual CAD.


Guard have access to the cheapest psykers in the game. Astropaths, primaris, and wyrdvanes stack your power pool and can eat perils rolls, who cares if you lose 2 wyrdvanes to a perils attack? You can then use those buffs on tank squadrons or infantry blobs.
They're cheap, sure. They're also probably the easiest to kill and hardest to make best use of, and on the whole don't get as much out of psychic powers as my other armies get out of theirs (especially ones that affect the caster) due to their inherent nature. One will notice IG armies typically don't run lots of Psykers for a reason, as outside of like two or three powers they don't do much.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Yet another troll thread by everyone's favorite Dakka troll.

Go figure.


You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Vaktathi wrote:
 TheSilo wrote:
I've got to disagree with most of the folks here. The change to the vehicle damage table has been a massive buff to IG vehicles. Ap - can never explode, Ap 2 explodes vehicles 50% as often (effectively a 4+ save), Ap 1 explodes vehicles 33% less than in 6th (effectively a 5+ save). Leman Russ tanks received a massive price cut, the punisher, executioner, and eradicator are now very good choices.
It's not the damage table that IG has to worry about typically, it's HP loss. That situation is no different than in 6th. This change in the vehicle damage table also adversely effects IG, as it reduces the power of big heavy anti-tank guns to kill tanks (as IG often rely on) in favor of lighter multi-shot weapons and weapons that ignore AV to inflict HP damage. HP stripping weapons have exploded in both availability and capability. D weapons, Haywire, Gauss, multishot Grav weapons, etc.

And while some Russ variants got cheaper, the Ordnance russ tanks remain only semi-functional and largely overcosted, while the Executioner got borked such that it's likely to kill itself over a 6 turn game with typical kit without enemy assistance. Meanwhile, IG lost several armored units (Medusa, Colossus, Griffon), others that were overcosted (e.g. Hellhound variants) didn't get any help there (much like IG platoon units such as heavy weapons squads), and others got nerfs based on 5E performance ~5 or 6 weeks before 7E's release (chimera, manticore).

Veterans are 10 points cheaper, probably the cheapest BS4 unit in the game, and can take 3 special weapons plus can get stealth, and all that in a troops choice. That's pretty freaking good.
And their mandatory Chimera is 10pts more with fewer firing ports for their special weapons. For the most part they're the same as they were 6 years ago. Doctrines are a bit cheaper, but probably 90% of IG lists I see (in person, in battle reports, and in army list forums) don't use them.

The wyvern is OP for 65 points, without a doubt. I've stopped taking it in my casual games because it's too powerful, and slows down the game a lot.
Sure, but that also relies on you using your HS slots for it (which have all the units you need for long range anti-tank, anti-MC, anti-air, AV-14, etc), which often are needed for other tasks, which is why dual CAD is so necessary for competitive IG, and many tournaments do not allow dual CAD.


Guard have access to the cheapest psykers in the game. Astropaths, primaris, and wyrdvanes stack your power pool and can eat perils rolls, who cares if you lose 2 wyrdvanes to a perils attack? You can then use those buffs on tank squadrons or infantry blobs.
They're cheap, sure. They're also probably the easiest to kill and hardest to make best use of, and on the whole don't get as much out of psychic powers as my other armies get out of theirs (especially ones that affect the caster) due to their inherent nature. One will notice IG armies typically don't run lots of Psykers for a reason, as outside of like two or three powers they don't do much.


The IG book's design is complete crap. This is mostly because of the removal of units and the failure to address any of the problems with the previous codex. Also it is the internal balance that is completely atrocious. It is also worth adding that the codex's power level is low average, but this is mostly because it has so many holes in it. I think there are a lot of good unit options still in the book and that is what makes people confused about it. Some of the main problems right now are outside of the IG book problems.

Firepower for most units in the game has increased around the board. With the removal of most of our mobility, it forced us to rely basically foot blobs and mech armies to do the job of grabbing and holding objectives. Blobs are still too easy to kill because of the firepower increase without any significant price change to our guys. I think they thought that Bullgryns would be the solution to this as a mobile cover method to keeping troops alive. Bullgryns are way expensive and still easy to take out. And there is no defensive order either which would have also been helpful. Foot guard is still a weaker choice.

The other method Mech suffers from the previously mentioned AV/HP problem. Our 2 transports are overpriced and die before they get anywhere. I have found myself switching to Taurox now and simply charging into cover and hoping for the best verse using chimeras. -15 points AV 11 with a +4 cover save beats AV 12 every time. Never mind that side armor of both being 10. None of our stuff is really cheap enough that we can spam it like we need to offset these problems.

The other options in the book don't really help. Stromtroopers continue to be a huge disappointment. They are far too flimsy and expensive to serve as a reliable objective grabber. Besides their price, the lost of infiltrate and the reroll on deep strike really hurts their movement potential. Hellhounds are stupid pricey and weak. Scout Sentinels are a little better, but still too slow. Ratlings too pricey for what you get. The one option worth noting is Valkyrie veterans are kind of nice, but not being able to use them to score until potentially turn 3 doesn't make that a reasonable solution. (also being that guy for having so many flyers)

One of the most interesting thing I have noticed is that I still have rather great killing power. I can still usually remove enough of units by the end of the game that in straight points value I would be considered ahead. However, that just doesn't win games anymore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/23 17:31:05


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






Meh. Nobody buys Guard models at the moment -- during huge boxing days sales, almost every faction was cleaned out; Guard and Chaos being the exceptions. People were bought junk like Baal Predators before the Guard models moved. About the only thing that sold were Scions, and probably just for modelling.

Soooooo... they will probably get a Decurion formation with some special rule that will make them super-duper-awesome. And some unit that does ridiculous damage Maybe a flyer will squad up and will be buffed so that it does real damage and is nigh impossible to kill, and a tank squad will be able to blow up anything within 100" in one shot.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah and that helps a lot. end of 6th was already tough for IG, we had what a month of new codex to test and then came 7th to nerf all the new books. And now we can wait for a year plus for a new book, with zeroguarantee for the book to be any better. What if it is like the harli book? Wait another 2 years maybe for 8th or 9th edition?
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I had a really resounding success the other day with my Russes+platoon list against the new Eldar. The power of five Lascannons plus prescience plus ignores cover really took a chunk out of his forces and the Paskisher worked wonders as usual. Camo Netting plus an aegis line was a real easy way to survive the D weapons and it meant he couldn't shoot his way past the Conscript line to charge the platoon with his WK.

The WK managed to score one LRBT on a six but not before it'd more than proved itself worthwhile taking chunks out of Windrider units and forcing jinks.

As for mobility, 2 squads of Tempestus and a PCS in a chimera held my objective game together until the major threats were dead and I could move out with my army.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Guard is a very good Ally Army. But they must have Obsec.
They are especially good with mariines.
Even the new tanks might help, allowing flyers to be guranteed in.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




over there

I honestly believe that IG players should start pity parties like sisters and chaos do all the time...

The west is on its death spiral.

It was a good run. 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan






Austin, Texas.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:All of the above is simple.

Just do it.


I laughed.
Playing games with IG isnt as easy as move point shoot win like your suggesting.

Red__Thirst wrote:Yet another troll thread by everyone's favorite Dakka troll.

Go figure.



My thoughts precisely.


I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine. 
   
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
All of the above is simple.

Just do it.
What you're either unwilling or incapable of understanding is that all the things you listed an be done by every army in the game- those other armies just do it better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/23 22:39:04


 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




over there

 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
All of the above is simple.

Just do it.
What you're either unwilling or incapable of understanding is that every army in the game can do all the things listed above, the majority of them can just do it better then the Guard can.
Precisely.

The west is on its death spiral.

It was a good run. 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

The OP is going to use the simplest language and shortest statements with the most combative viewpoint to incite flames and generally result in getting his thread locked. He's done it multiple times before. Check his post history.

It's kinda sad, really.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/24 00:06:47


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