Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So as I see list after list of jebikes, I'm beginning to question whether or not my love for guardians is misplaced. For what you get are they still a viable choice?

They are not as strong as scatt spam. However, they got buffed too. If you take the warhost, the HWP are free and they can all run 6" all the time. You probably need some tricks with them: gate, Baharroth for hit-and-run, buffs from a farseer or two, fortune, ...

They're cheap, durable (especially in cover with conceal Warlock), mobile and lethal at close range. All around nice unit...just not as nice as Windriders.

the main issue is that the rules don't reward you for holding an objective, just taking one. So scat bikes with their maneuverability can just grab objectives all day long, whereas Guardians would effectively hold an objective. That's a major flaw in the Tactical Objective system. It would be better if an objective could only be scored at the beginning of a turn, not immediately so that you would actually have to "hold" it. and perhaps you could continue to score it as long as you held it, forcing your opponent to try to remove you or just let you keep scoring a VP each turn.

In an absolutely optimized list, Jetbikes are probably better simply for the more extreme mobility, the higher Strength firepower, and the ability pull off MSU strategies more effectively because of those things. However, that doesn't mean Guardians are bad at all. I think they're really good, and less likely to make your opponent rage.

Since Guardians get so much from the Warhost, you almost certainly want to use them in that. Moving 12" all the time and having full firepower is great -- your threat ranges are still a bit low, but the sheer speed of your foot army will catch some by surprise. I guess you need to think of them more like a melee force that just so happens to strike from 12" away -- you'll be able to do damage from T2 onwards with regular guns, with the heavy weapons shooting all the time. In addition, the free points for heavy guns that the Guardian Warhost gives is just too good to pass up if you like Guardians at all.

bullyboy wrote:
the main issue is that the rules don't reward you for holding an objective, just taking one. So scat bikes with their maneuverability can just grab objectives all day long, whereas Guardians would effectively hold an objective. That's a major flaw in the Tactical Objective system. It would be better if an objective could only be scored at the beginning of a turn, not immediately so that you would actually have to "hold" it. and perhaps you could continue to score it as long as you held it, forcing your opponent to try to remove you or just let you keep scoring a VP each turn.

With maelstrom missions having guys in your lines definitly still pays off.

It enjoy using guardians, prior to the new dex I used to run 2x20 with an avatar, was it op not at all and my opponents could deal with it if need be. When the guardians got to unload on something it usually was gone off the table though.

This codex I think if you are running them it may as well be in the guardian battlehost, the free weapons are very nice. 3x10 seems ideal and I use left over guardians I own to man the old school d-cannons I have. Guardians short range does put a lot of people off but think of how many armies like to drop things right into your backfield, the sheer power they can deliver within 24" threat range in the battlehost does catch people off guard.

Whilst expensive, I think if you mount them up in Wave Serpents as part of the formations, they become quite an interesting proposition.
You can hover 11.5" away from enemy unit's to maximise the Preferred Enemy on the Vypers/War Walkers/Support Platforms.
All the while they are mobile, they can hold objectives, then if needs be, they can jump out and shuriken something to death and battle focus 6" into cover/onto an objective/behind the wave serpent.
I'm just putting together a 3rd unit of Defenders for a Battlehost to run with my existing war walker squadron/support batteries.
I'm planning on kitting out a storm host too, just to see whether they can make back their worth of free toys. I've got 11 storm guardians that used to run as part of a tri-flamer unit with a warlock back in the 4th book so I'm only 13 short

Storm guardians haven't been getting much love, but honestly, they're not looking terribly bad with the free fusion guns/flamers and power weapons. With 12 inch movement every turn in the warhost, they can get places quick enough, and they're cheap. 72 points for an 8-man unit with 5+ armor, 12 inches of movement, 2 flamers/FGs, 2 power swords, and the rest having pistols and chainswords? Sounds like a deal to me. For 40 more points, you can add another body to the unit, shrouded, a random psychic power, and a 12" S9 spear throw along with fleshbane melee attacks.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Storm guardians haven't been getting much love, but honestly, they're not looking terribly bad with the free fusion guns/flamers and power weapons. With 12 inch movement every turn in the warhost, they can get places quick enough, and they're cheap. 72 points for an 8-man unit with 5+ armor, 12 inches of movement, 2 flamers/FGs, 2 power swords, and the rest having pistols and chainswords? Sounds like a deal to me. For 40 more points, you can add another body to the unit, shrouded, a random psychic power, and a 12" S9 spear throw along with fleshbane melee attacks.

Or for 80 points, you get a unit that would gun them down before they do anything... I get that it's a great deal for 72 points. But it's still just 8 guardsmen when you open fire on them.
Storm Guardians are so squishy, they should be Dark Eldar, not Eldar.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Storm guardians haven't been getting much love, but honestly, they're not looking terribly bad with the free fusion guns/flamers and power weapons. With 12 inch movement every turn in the warhost, they can get places quick enough, and they're cheap. 72 points for an 8-man unit with 5+ armor, 12 inches of movement, 2 flamers/FGs, 2 power swords, and the rest having pistols and chainswords? Sounds like a deal to me. For 40 more points, you can add another body to the unit, shrouded, a random psychic power, and a 12" S9 spear throw along with fleshbane melee attacks.

Or for 80 points, you get a unit that would gun them down before they do anything... I get that it's a great deal for 72 points. But it's still just 8 guardsmen when you open fire on them.
Storm Guardians are so squishy, they should be Dark Eldar, not Eldar.

-Matt

What unit are you referring to? Regular guardians(90 pts) or ScatterBikes(81 pts)? Or something else?

I don't think regular guardians are that great at killing stuff either, due to their short range, even WITH a free gun platform. So, that being said, I'd rather have the smaller, cheaper storm guardian units that can be outfitted with fusion guns, flamers, and power swords for free. Can they be targetted and shot down? Sure they can. But if they are, that's something else in your army that ISN'T being shot at. The enemy is wasting their fire on a 72 point unit. If I have 3 units of them with dual fusion guns all charging across the board 12" per turn, by turn 2, any that survived turn 1 will likely be in fusion gun range of something, and will probably make up the points for any that were lost prior to that.

If, on the other hand, your opponent focuses on taking out all 3 units of storm guardians, they very well may be able to. But if using cover properly and such, it will require an inordinate amount of fire dirrected at them, which spares the rest of your army that fire. All 3 units are only 216 points all together, compared to the 270 points required by the regular guardians.

I'm not looking for storm guardians to win any MVP awards, but as a troops selection, I think they're versatile enough in the warhost formation to bring lots of different utility to the table. They can tie units up in melee, move fairly quickly on foot, hold objectives in cover, and crack transports.

If I were to field them in a tournament list where the tournament was playing Eternal War style missions, I'd field 1 unit of them with dual flamers and a warlock, and 2 units of them with dual fusion guns and warlocks with singing spears. I'd use the first unit to sit on an objective in my deployment zone as a counter-assault unit, probably with artillery support. The other 2 units would be a shrouded mobile strikeforce used to target enemy vehicles. They'd have 2 fusion guns plus the 12" S9 singing spear throw, and be capable of engaging occupants from destroyed transports in melee. Mine would be more expensive than stock, but that's primarily because I play psyker heavy anyhow. They'd also be a fair amount more surviveable.

I think the two best guardian builds are these:

1) guardian defender warhost static back line on fortification with avatar and 3 EML platforms. Give the avatar a quad gun. (465 pts + whatever the fortification)

2) avatar plus 24 stormies with 6 fusion guns and 6 power swords meat sheild up the middle. (411 pts)

Both are more than acceptable for the cost and the third option is 3 vanilla un-upgraded defender guardian squads in wave serpents. Dump and pump 60 str 4 shots onto their lawn. Anyone who is bothered about range doesn't have a clue how to use guardians, whoever heard of walking these guys from "a" to "b".. if you even try that you can't play eldar properly, and you make me cringe. Dump and pump is a drive by tactic that leaves no survivors, and hence has no losses. The extra run just makes this even more abusable.. i..e entering buildings after etc

You can't run into a building, per the embarking rules that require you to move into b2b during the movement phase.

Don't forget the avatar give furious charge and rage to units in 12" also, each storm guardian is now giving you 4 str4 attacks @ init5 on the way in. I like to give my stormers fusion gun and flamer in each squad. It may not be optimal, but it forces my opponent to worry about all three units, no matter what they have on the table.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
You can't run into a building, per the embarking rules that require you to move into b2b during the movement phase.

? .. where did you get that from.. ? Not any rules i've seen, or perhaps you are confused: I was talking about "disembarking" 6" (from the rear door of a wave serpent, which is the "move") shooting, then battle focus 6" into a building (or rubble at least) certainly legal!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Don't forget the avatar give furious charge and rage to units in 12" also, each storm guardian is now giving you 4 str4 attacks @ init5 on the way in.

Wow I had not given that "full" thought.. you're right... in that way stormies are probably the best (points wise) melee unit in the game.. 60 storm guardians... avatar.. Locks with conceal... half would make it

ConanMan wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
You can't run into a building, per the embarking rules that require you to move into b2b during the movement phase.

? .. where did you get that from.. ? Not any rules i've seen, or perhaps you are confused: I was talking about "disembarking" 6" (from the rear door of a wave serpent, which is the "move") shooting, then battle focus 6" into a building (or rubble at least) certainly legal!

I got it from the rules "embarking on transports" which must be done in the movement phase. Since the 6" battle focus move happens in the shooting phase, a unit cannot embark into the building. And before you mention that buildings aren't transports, they are treated as such for the embarking rules, per the rulebook in the section regarding "embarking in buildings".