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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/04 09:57:04
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Well. You have the facts: people are biased. You can't do much about it except take a stand, enjoy being right, and moving on.
...like every other conflict with biased people.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/04 14:01:53
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Three Color Minimum
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Someone else being biased does not make you right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/04 21:22:37
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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Warpsolution wrote:Well. You have the facts: people are biased. You can't do much about it except take a stand, enjoy being right, and moving on.
...like every other conflict with biased people.
I have mentioned to people at my local store the reason why skaven do so well in tournaments is because restricted army composition tends to favor skaven. They wouldn't listen. I mean if i've only ever played regular games with no special rules then somebody could use a crap ton of warlocks or witch elves or various other ridiculousness. I even saw a mostly 1+ or 2+ armor save empire army with cannons, steam tank (one or two) demigryphs, knights and that sort of thing. Guy took first place above the supposedly best player in michigan which played with skaven. This was a tournament with unrestricted rules and a guy totally used harpies to railroad my abomination. This was the first time i saw that and it seemed awesome. Course i hear in other tournaments that sort of move isn't allowed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/05 10:21:33
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Agreed. I never said anything of the sort.
If, however, I was confident in one party's adherence to logic and reason, and the opposing party held on to their view due to some bias...I don't really need to hear their actual arguments. I'm pretty sure I know which one has the right idea.
When you're talking about the internal balance in Warhammer, you're talking about numbers. And when you're talking about numbers, your opinion better not be colored by personal experience. That's just fact.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/05 22:57:38
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
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I laugh every time I see someone say the Tomb Kings book sucks or ask why Skaven are OP. My friend and I broke the TK book on release day. He's lost one game with them. If you aren't running stat boosted Tomb Guard (princes/king) and Stalkers/Necro Knights, you're doing it wrong.
On Skaven: censor bearers, plague monks with furnace, a bell, A-Bomb, doom wheel, an engineer w/rocket, storm vermin w/storm banner, and clanrats. Do you see any slaves? No. And my friend hasn't ever lost with that list. The only time I've lost with it was my first game of 8th where I screwed up a couple point based rules after I sent the other player running for cover and I just missed out on a kill. It's filthy. You're all bloody welcome.
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Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/06 04:40:46
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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timetowaste85 wrote:I laugh every time I see someone say the Tomb Kings book sucks or ask why Skaven are OP. My friend and I broke the TK book on release day. He's lost one game with them. If you aren't running stat boosted Tomb Guard (princes/king) and Stalkers/Necro Knights, you're doing it wrong.
On Skaven: censor bearers, plague monks with furnace, a bell, A-Bomb, doom wheel, an engineer w/rocket, storm vermin w/storm banner, and clanrats. Do you see any slaves? No. And my friend hasn't ever lost with that list. The only time I've lost with it was my first game of 8th where I screwed up a couple point based rules after I sent the other player running for cover and I just missed out on a kill. It's filthy. You're all bloody welcome.
How recently have you played skaven? This could be a big deal. Also cannons snipe the bell seer pretty hard. If you take him as your general on a bell you deserve to lose him. Would also like to see how you handle the faster monsters like daemon princes that can fly.
Also find it odd you would take shooting with the storm banner since that tends to ruin it pretty hard. I've had a storm banner last for like 5-8 player turns. Imagine how badly that'd hurt your doomwheel's shooting.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/06 04:46:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/06 05:34:52
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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timetowaste85 wrote:I laugh every time I see someone say the Tomb Kings book sucks or ask why Skaven are OP. My friend and I broke the TK book on release day. He's lost one game with them. If you aren't running stat boosted Tomb Guard (princes/king) and Stalkers/Necro Knights, you're doing it wrong.
On Skaven: censor bearers, plague monks with furnace, a bell, A-Bomb, doom wheel, an engineer w/rocket, storm vermin w/storm banner, and clanrats. Do you see any slaves? No. And my friend hasn't ever lost with that list. The only time I've lost with it was my first game of 8th where I screwed up a couple point based rules after I sent the other player running for cover and I just missed out on a kill. It's filthy. You're all bloody welcome.
While I too laugh when people put down other armies and call out other armies for being OP, Skaven just don't have it anymore. Back when people didn't know how to play against Skaven, they were incredibly " OP." Now that more and more people know how to deal with them, they just aren't that tough anymore. People finally started to realize that our magic is pretty one-sided (Sure, we can split the lores, but you really want to put your general within 12" of an enemy unit to get off those plague spells?) and that our toys are the only things keeping us from just throwing T3 S3 rat bodies at you until we lose or make it a draw from basic points denial.
Any list under someone who actually knows how to play the game and takes advantage of the rules can be outrageously filthy, just like your friend with the "underpowered" Tomb Kings that everyone thinks are so weak compared to other armies.
Really the only things that I personally feel keep Skaven in the game are dreaded 13th (which has lost its value once people went away from expensive infantry blocks), undercosted cannons (which, although may be unreliable, you still have a chance of rolling a 6 to wound with a S2 cannon), and the amazing Hellpit. But once those are dealt with, they're aren't that much of a threat really.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/06 20:31:29
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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@timetowaste85: while the "every army can be good" concept is something I'll heartily agree with, the "I/my friend ran list X and went undefeated" argument has no real traction, and always seems to provoke petty arguments.
@flamingkillamajig: you've had the Stormbanner last for 5+ turns. Okay.
...who cares?
That is very unlikely. Sometimes, our dice rolls are bad. That is the case for all armies. There's nothing we can do about it, nothing we should, even if we were able, and has no place in such discussions.
...aside from all that, though, the banner is still awesome, even if it messes with your shooting.
I mean...you wonder "how you handle the faster monsters like Daemon Princes that can fly...", and then your next comment is about not taking the banner that grounds all flyers.
@sco0terkidx: agreed on most, if not all counts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/06 23:27:09
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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Warpsolution wrote:@timetowaste85: while the "every army can be good" concept is something I'll heartily agree with, the "I/my friend ran list X and went undefeated" argument has no real traction, and always seems to provoke petty arguments.
@flamingkillamajig: you've had the Stormbanner last for 5+ turns. Okay.
...who cares?
That is very unlikely. Sometimes, our dice rolls are bad. That is the case for all armies. There's nothing we can do about it, nothing we should, even if we were able, and has no place in such discussions.
...aside from all that, though, the banner is still awesome, even if it messes with your shooting.
I mean...you wonder "how you handle the faster monsters like Daemon Princes that can fly...", and then your next comment is about not taking the banner that grounds all flyers.
@sco0terkidx: agreed on most, if not all counts.
True enough but sometimes it only lasts a turn and then a player turn and then ends. Our general best defense against monsters is our cannons and our other shooting. If you take away our shooting their monsters will have free run of the board. Well unless you bog them down with slaves forever.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/08 00:30:30
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Here's another great thing about the Stormbanner: you don't have to use it.
If activating it would cripple your plans...don't! Worst case scenario, you waste 50pts. Not that big of a deal.
And you're not "taking away" our shooting. You're, on average, halving it.
I'd also point out that a Warlord with a halberd can score a wounds or two on a lot of Monsters. With a good foundation of static CR, that can be enough to make 'em sweat, too.
And then, of course, there's the simple fact that 6's always wound. Death Frenzy'd Slaves? Or perhaps Bless With Filth?
And the Abomination. And the Doomwheel.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/10 21:15:55
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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Slaves with bless with filth and death frenzy are nice provided an opponent lets you get both off. I've heard plague monks work better as they already have the frenzy and plenty of attacks as well as access to the plague banner for re-rolls to hit and to wound for one close combat phase. All you have to do with that is just bless with filth on them. If you have other options like plague or 13th it'll definitely make them have to pick what to stop.
I dunno about the storm banner. As one opponent used to put it it generally ends up hurting me more and they roll lucky and get their shots through. Ugh.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/11 04:33:11
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Any kind of "that item isn't good because I always roll bad for it" arguments are non-issues. That has nothing to do with how good if bad anything is. A Gutstar with four characters can lose to my Rat Dart, if the dice decide it. That doesn't make Rat Darts amazing. It just makes me very, very lucky they one time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/11 05:23:12
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Having the option for the rat dart in the first place is pretty cheese...
Let's face it, a 23 point unit that is an independent drop and is not restricted by special or rare unit caps? Pretty f'in AMAZING. 5 rat darts, 115 points, and you've forced your opponent to start dropping serious units and you're still deploying literal throwaway units!
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CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/11 12:04:17
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Sure, sure. Good chaff is good.
...but Dark and Glade Riders and Reavers are pretty amazing, too. 4 times the cost is still cheap, and that movement and capability means those points will actually, actively do something.
I can't see how it's cheesy. Or, at least, cheesier than any other good chaff.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/11 21:53:47
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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Makumba wrote:Speaking of easy to beat with skill, how does one beat skaven with a dwarf army ?
Same way the dwarves beat everything else.
Point a lot of cannons at it and shoot.
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Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/11 23:53:08
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Dwarfs don't have a lot of options in general. Basically, the only question you need to ask when building your list is "do I want a decent amount of shooting, or tons of it?"
The lamest, most boring and static tactic available to you is castling. If you pack your units so close together that the enemy literally can't fit between them, you force them into a heads-on assault. Something the Skaven are terrible at.
That's honestly why I like my Gutter Runners five strong. A nine model-footprint has often been too big for me to get them where I need them.
Just target the Skaven Weapon Teams and Rare choices with artillery, then let the waves of cheap troops break upon your line. Don't shoot into those Slave busses. I have no idea why everyone does that. They're worth crap points and they're not a threat.
Oh, and Quarrelers with great weapons. That is a scary unit for me to face. There's just no good way to deal with them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/13 05:07:08
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Bear in mind, those 10 Rat darts have a comparable cost to TWO minimum-size units of fast cavalry. So your opponent drops his fast cav... and then 8 other units before you're done with your rat darts.
And if your rat darts can keep his fast-cav from doing anything other than kill rat darts, you come out ahead.
Trust me, I play both Skaven and Dark Elves. Both have amazing chaff options, but between the two Skaven should win the deployment battle.
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CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/13 06:07:25
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Did dwarf get a fast cavelery unit in end times or WD, please tell me they did and it is not something FW, but from core.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/13 11:05:07
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Combat Jumping Ragik
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Makumba wrote:Did dwarf get a fast cavelery unit in end times or WD, please tell me they did and it is not something FW, but from core.
No. Dwarfs don't get cavalry. The closest they have is gyros.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/13 11:55:11
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Skaven win the deployment battle, yes. But chaff can do a lot more than that.
I lay down 10 Rat Darts while my opponent sets up their whole army. Okay. I get to see where those Reavers, 1-3 blocks of Infantry and Cavalry, and the big cold birds go.
Then, on my opponent's turn, they shoot and kill two or more Giant Rats in one of my Darts...and they panic, and run, panicking another two or three Darts along with them (Ld5...or 3), and probably some of the other units in my list.
They do the same thing on the second turn, and my chaff is basically gone.
When you stuff the board full of crap troops, there's just no way to avoids Panic tests. Most likely a lot of them.
Rat Darts are good. But they're hard to abuse in terms of taking them over and over again.
That's why I like units of 20 Slaves. For 19pts more, I get 14 extra wounds (and an obnoxiously high Panic threshold), and they don't panic anything but each other.
If I could choose between Giant Rats and some Elven fast cavalry...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/13 14:33:33
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
Livingston, United Kingdom
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One of the main reasons that people hate playing Skaven is all the times that you have to ask your Skaven opponent to repeat himself, because what he just announced sounded so insanely stupid. LD10 rerollable as a standard element, making them harder to break than Dwarves, since they are almost always Steadfast. The most dangerous magic items in the game (Doomrocket, etc). An auto-win spell (13th) that isn't even that hard for them to cast, thanks to Warpstone tokens. The storm banner, which affects the whole table regardless of game size. The ability to out-tarpit Undead, while shooting into combats with some of the most horrendous warmachines in the game. Numerous units that just don't follow normal rules, and as such are best defeated by using unfun railroading tactics with light cavalry, since god forbid you actually try to interact with them like normal units. Even their milder things, like the Bell or the Furnace, which come with so many insane special rules (and are, at random, either astoundingly powerful or have no effect) are a total pain to try and fight against.
Added to this you have to try and work out how the hell to actually resolve their rules. Can they cast Scorch into melee? It does say anywhere; does that override the normal restrictions? What spell type is it? How about weapon teams attached to a unit which tries to deploy in the tower? The whole game drags down unless you and your opponent have already played before, and hashed out a mutually acceptable understanding for how the rules are meant to actually function.
Now, I get that Skaven are not the most powerful race; in fact, I think that my win/loss ratio against my Skaven friend is in my favour, even using Tomb Kings. I find it harder to win against armies like Warriors of Chaos, who have fewer nutbar special rules but exceptional stats. But Skaven are noteworthy for how arduous it is to fight them. The game feels like a series of 'gotcha!' moments, with them unveiling things that run so contrary to usual expectations for rules and power level. These moments can be enraging, and make you really feel like your opponent isn't doing anything to earn his win, and thus can actually make you act more like a dick yourself. I was playing a huge game against a Chaos/Skaven alliance, and cast Flesh to Stone on my Swordmasters; hooray, T7 infantry! But then next turn my Skaven opponent randomly rolled for his Screaming Bell, and announced that every T7+ model on the table would take an auto-wound. Hooray! Such strategy! I got... animated, in one of my less glorious Warhammer moments. Even worse: I only actually lost a couple of dudes, thanks to Alarielle's hilarious OPness. This kind of thing comes up all the time when playing Skaven. Oh look, your 35pt magical item got a direct hit, and destroyed a whole 350pt infantry unit. Great. So on, so forth.
So I eagerly look forward to a Skaven rewrite, in the hope that any future book for them actually conforms to the damn game a little better, and doesn't promote a gameplay style of randomly activating loads of daft broken items simultaneously in order to see which one works. I mean, it isn't like Skaven actually have decent ways of winning without those insane items, monsters and spells, so I can see why they are taken, but it doesn't make it more fun to play against.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/13 14:35:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/13 17:01:41
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Charles Rampant wrote:One of the main reasons that people hate playing Skaven is all the times that you have to ask your Skaven opponent to repeat himself, because what he just announced sounded so insanely stupid. LD10 rerollable as a standard element, making them harder to break than Dwarves, since they are almost always Steadfast. The most dangerous magic items in the game (Doomrocket, etc). An auto-win spell (13th) that isn't even that hard for them to cast, thanks to Warpstone tokens. The storm banner, which affects the whole table regardless of game size. The ability to out-tarpit Undead, while shooting into combats with some of the most horrendous warmachines in the game. Numerous units that just don't follow normal rules, and as such are best defeated by using unfun railroading tactics with light cavalry, since god forbid you actually try to interact with them like normal units. Even their milder things, like the Bell or the Furnace, which come with so many insane special rules (and are, at random, either astoundingly powerful or have no effect) are a total pain to try and fight against.
Added to this you have to try and work out how the hell to actually resolve their rules. Can they cast Scorch into melee? It does say anywhere; does that override the normal restrictions? What spell type is it? How about weapon teams attached to a unit which tries to deploy in the tower? The whole game drags down unless you and your opponent have already played before, and hashed out a mutually acceptable understanding for how the rules are meant to actually function.
Now, I get that Skaven are not the most powerful race; in fact, I think that my win/loss ratio against my Skaven friend is in my favour, even using Tomb Kings. I find it harder to win against armies like Warriors of Chaos, who have fewer nutbar special rules but exceptional stats. But Skaven are noteworthy for how arduous it is to fight them. The game feels like a series of 'gotcha!' moments, with them unveiling things that run so contrary to usual expectations for rules and power level. These moments can be enraging, and make you really feel like your opponent isn't doing anything to earn his win, and thus can actually make you act more like a dick yourself. I was playing a huge game against a Chaos/Skaven alliance, and cast Flesh to Stone on my Swordmasters; hooray, T7 infantry! But then next turn my Skaven opponent randomly rolled for his Screaming Bell, and announced that every T7+ model on the table would take an auto-wound. Hooray! Such strategy! I got... animated, in one of my less glorious Warhammer moments. Even worse: I only actually lost a couple of dudes, thanks to Alarielle's hilarious OPness. This kind of thing comes up all the time when playing Skaven. Oh look, your 35pt magical item got a direct hit, and destroyed a whole 350pt infantry unit. Great. So on, so forth.
So I eagerly look forward to a Skaven rewrite, in the hope that any future book for them actually conforms to the damn game a little better, and doesn't promote a gameplay style of randomly activating loads of daft broken items simultaneously in order to see which one works. I mean, it isn't like Skaven actually have decent ways of winning without those insane items, monsters and spells, so I can see why they are taken, but it doesn't make it more fun to play against.
Are you saying you enjoy other lists that take advantage of other methods of gameplay? For example, complete avoidance elf lists? A "I purple sun your entire army and win" list? None of that is fun to play against. Every army can create a list that isn't fun to play against, and you're going to see those lists 90% of the time in competitive gameplay. Why? Because they win games. Not only do they win games, but they win games with such MINUSCULE effort. Sounds like a ton of fun, right?
Just because you had one game where you decided to neglect the fact that the screaming bell has the possibility of putting wounds on T7 or higher doesn't mean it's broken. The screaming bell is one of the most random units in warhammer and is only taken for fun excluding twin tower points-denial lists. You just sound like a poor sport who got the short end of the stick, which is where I think most of the crap-talk comes from.
While I can say that Skaven have a couple of powerful tools at their disposal, I will fully support and stand with the fact that nothing in the Skaven codex is broken, regardless of the dictionary-sized FAQ (Although I would like to agree on the new codex.. Just because it would be nice to be updated along with the other armies).
You don't like our storm banner? That sucks; we like not having our hell pits, cannons, and towers shot down with little effort (Ya know? The things we NEED to win games).
Hate our doomrocket/brass orb? Get over it; the odds of it working in our favor are completely dependent on the dice, as are other OP crap such as purple sun, dweller's, cannons, etc.
LD 10 re-rolling? It's almost like every other army can't get LD 9-10 re-rolling with little ease (Oh wait, they can). The only difference is that our LD 10 bricks are T3 S3 useless pieces of trash.
Dreaded 13th? Easy to go off? Are you kidding me? Any spell is easy to get off if you 6-dice it, which Skaven basically NEED to do in order to get the spell off.. and then it only works on INFANTRY that are OUT OF COMBAT.
There are a lot more things in other armies that are less fun to play against. People need to stop bashing Skaven for the same cheese they thought they had years ago, especially since other armies have access to more cheese.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/13 18:23:50
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
Livingston, United Kingdom
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You didn't understand the basic point of my post. I was careful not to say that Skaven were overpowered. What I said was that Skaven have an odd and gimmick based approach to winning, and which is irritating to play against since it mostly just involves things being triggered. This is the root of the issues with them. Any competitive list type is working a certain tactic, e.g. avoidance; you respond to those lists by working against their tactics. When playing Skaven, it often feels that you cannot do this, as the only tactic at work is 'activate random crap with strange rules'. It isn't a fair thing to say, but then neither is it particularly fair to avoid playing Dwarf players because you hate playing against a castle, right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/14 04:47:51
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Agreed. But Skaven players need those gimmicks to win, because their ELITE troops no better than most other armies' CORE troops. Without those gimmicks, Skaven just plain lose the game.
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CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/14 05:59:26
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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I always find it funny for all the Ld 10 re-rollable crap people talk about skaven they seem to forget all our hard hitting units don't benefit from it. In fact kill our fragile hard hitting units and suddenly we're mostly just str 3 and t 3 bodies doing a lot of jack. As has been said our important units are actually very few (abomination, grey seer, general and other rare choices). The bodies are just there for show but generally don't do a whole lot.
I love how one opponent complained about skaven being too good and then used a bell seer as his general. Basically a khorne cannon shot his general off the bell. I'd be surprised if he didn't lose soon after being denied his magic and his general.
Also as far as the screaming bell goes the only really good result it has is destroying buildings and destroying anything t7 or above. Everything else is just boosting crappy skaven that lose every combat anyway. The sad bit is you can't even use a fozzrik's folding fortress to protect it because it would just destroy the building most likely. Don't get me wrong the result where it hits everything t7 or above is awesome vs war machines and such across the whole board but if you face an opponent with no war machines then it's a total waste.
Also agreed on skaven being gimmicky. It's sad but we have a few really good things and then a load of crap that nobody cares about. It reminds me of when the slann were broken but basically held the whole lizardmen army together till they got a new book. What skaven need is a new book that allows our units to be useful again. I mean it'd be nice just to get some use out of our special choices. The other sad bit about our hard hitting units (at least in close combat) is our core gives up so much combat resolution. Your best thing to use against it is the plague monks to prevent combat resolution but it doesn't always help.
I suppose my beef with people complaining about skaven is they talk about double abomination without realizing that taking it would basically prevent a skaven player from having much else in rare choices esp. to handle potent monsters that kill monsters and other large targets. Without cannons a flying daemon prince will wreck your face. Just like 13th is good against elite infantry armies but against hordes or anything that doesn't fit the infantry profile (cavalry heavy lists, monstrous infantry, fast cavalry and more) it doesn't do much against. Also though some say our cannons are the best they will usually lose a cannon vs cannon fight and we're limited to two when under 3k points.
I suppose skaven aren't as bad these days as i used to think but they aren't nearly as ridiculous as some armies with their magical elf fast cavalry and other ridiculous crap. I've seen some pro players get owned by newer ones just because of dark elf warlocks.
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In other news i've been having some good luck with my chieftain spam tactic (just give each chieftain mundane gear that is cheap as dirt). I basically just give each chieftain a halberd so each costs 47 pts each. Still think skaven aren't OP as it took me loss after loss recently till i got a stable build again. Considering i used to have an average win/loss ratio till wood elves got re-released and end times i think it's kinda telling that skaven got decidedly weaker over time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/14 08:24:20
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
Livingston, United Kingdom
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My regular Skaven opponent has switched to using Rat Ogre core (using the special character) because he finds it more fun to actually win some combata. Also the horde of Rat Ogres gives him something to hide Thanquol behind.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/14 09:24:36
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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Oh absolutely. The skaven army is pretty much held together by rares and magic for the most part and few other things. Chieftain with halberd spam seems to work for me (15 WS 5 str 5 i6 attacks for 5 20 x 20 mm bases) but i'm thinking of using death frenzy on em in the future. Normally death frenzy doesn't do much since skaven still lose their melee battles even with death frenzied stormvermin and most hard hitting units (rat ogres, plague monks, censer bearers, etc.) are frenzied already and most generally have so few numbers that losing d6 models per turn would hurt significantly. Biggest problem is normally death frenzy drops from a unit immediately after a turn since skaven almost always lose every combat for any death frenzied unit. However chieftain with halberd spam should boost the 15 attacks i mentioned before into 25 attacks per 5 20x20 mm bases and you can use clanrats or similar to take the casualties. It's pretty freaking sick sounding in my opinion.
Basically you give the opponent's unit wither (-1 to toughness) or give yours death frenzy (+2 attacks version of frenzy) or bless with filth (poisoned close combat attacks) and then they become sick. Even crazier bit is if you wanted to you can give each chieftain poisoned attacks in the scavenge pile so if you give the 'bless with filth' they auto-wound on a 5 to hit. That's rather scary. I'd still rather have wither and death frenzy personally but it's not too shabby. Also dunno if i'd upgrade each chieftain with poisoned close combat attacks from scavenge pile for 15 pts each. It'd get pretty expensive after a while esp. if i'm not facing monsters.
I've also had some luck with a very weird load-out for a grey seer. I take a plague seer with arabyan carpet (flying carpet) and it generally handles the short range of the skaven spells. I only feel bad 9th is coming in a month and will probably change everything. It took me forever to figure out a good build after losing so much and now i'll have to figure something out all over again. That said i'm pretty sure a grey seer on a flying carpet would be terrible against an archer based army (esp. wood elves) and even stuff that could wipe out single characters pretty quick.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/14 09:31:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/14 13:18:43
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Charles Rampart has hit many a nail on the head. Skaven don't play like other armies, and their POTENTIAL for destruction versus the cost for said potential often leaves other players feeling like they got screwed. Even when the Skaven plans fail.
I remember playing against a Daemon list where he tabled me on turn 5, and I took out...nothing. Not one unit. Victory Points earned: zero. In five turns.
And at the end of said "game", he tells me "wow! I didn't think I was going to be able to pull off a win, there!"
I...wanted to punch him in the face.
And honestly? I hope they don't change the way Skaven work. With masses of crap troops and a a handful of tricks up their sleeves. That's the army.
I do wish the rules were clearer and easier and...well. Better.
"Gotcha'!"--that's the perfect word, Charles. I know that feeling. And it sucks.
My suggestion would be simple communication.
"...you know the bell could roll up the D3 Wounds to all T7 models, right?" That's all it takes.
I want to win games because I out-generaled my opponent. Not because I took advantage of a player's ignorance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/14 15:50:39
Subject: Re:Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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@ Charles Hippo Avatar.
A couple posts back you mentioned some really good typical reasons why people don't like playing against skaven. One of them was the Dreaded 13th, which i totally agree with you.
My most often player opponent is a skaven player - one of the things that we really liked about End Times magic was that the mechanics of d6 dice useable REALLY toned down the effectiveness of that and other "Six dice" uber spells. It made it so that my opponent doesn't feel douchey using it, but his opponents also aren't staring a 6 dice 13th to the face every turn either. Win Win. If he manages to roll 5-6 dice on his attempt and chokes down a token or so to pull it off, meh, i'm okay with that, as it's likely a 0-1 time per game event.
I just wanted to touch on that, i agree with most of your other points. I absolutely abhor the doom rocket, and it's ludicrously low point cost for what it does. Nothing fills me with more glee than when it achieves little or nothing due to abnormal distance die rolling.
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daedalus wrote:
I mean, it's Dakka. I thought snide arguments from emotion were what we did here.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/14 16:09:10
Subject: Why all the skaven hate/OP complaints?
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Calculating Commissar
pontiac, michigan; usa
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Personally i want to see weapons teams become more valid again. In fact last game all my rares did a whole lot of jack. Abomination was mostly a looming threat, the cannons did absolutely nothing and one misfired and blew up and the doomwheel did a bit but not too much. I suppose it helped me win one combat.
Really it was some spells and the chieftain spam that won me the game. After seeing chieftain spam in action i don't think i even want to use censer bearers again. Sure censers are cheaper and have fog attacks but they strike at i3, after the first fight if they don't win they're str 3 and hatred doesn't work anymore. Sure they'd be dead by the next turn of combat anyway unless you flanked but at least chieftain spam can deal with it. Another great thing is chieftain spam does all it's damage in 20x20 mm.
I still say skaven aren't OP. Some match-ups we have are really unfortunate for me to face. Without a screaming bell i dunno how i could handle war machines but if i did i'd probably need to screen the bell with rat ogres or something. Also it forces the seer to be static and it'd really suck if the seer just died. Make it a general at your own peril really.
Then there's the issue of all our special units mostly sucking. The sad bit is poisoned wind globes actually sound good but if you shoot them into a combat it gets randomized a lot. Honestly they wouldn't be bad but generally everything they'd be good against is just too fast so your only hope of using them well is having them everywhere the enemy could go with monsters and even then they're just too slow to keep up. Jezzails are pretty good but leadership and low wounds would hurt you bad. I do know a GW manager that has had good luck with a bunch of em but he gets it at discount and honestly i dunno why people don't just take advantage of forests or walls against them or their poor leadership or low wounds.
For me my big issue against my current skaven army would be facing wood elves. The only thing i could do against the shooting is magic mostly and my flying carpet seer would just be putting himself at risk. Really the only thing i can do against the wood elves is just move across the board and block any lanes of escape so as to force him into combats. Even then they have ambushers and that doesn't turn out so pretty. For all the hate or mild feelings they get i may use plagueclaw catapults just to stir up enemy panic outside of the general's and BSB's range. Sadly this would only do well against chaff mostly and few other things. It might be ok vs wood elfs as they are currently though.
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This all may be moot when 9th hits though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/14 16:12:17
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