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Played vs a beautiful Vostroyan gunline. Lots of infantry, weapons, couple of Leman Russ, vet sqds with plasma in chimera.

My list (currently Unbound)

5 harlies, neuro/caress on master, 2 kisses, 1 embrace, in starweaver
path of heroes. (solitaire w rose, seer w mask and lvl 2, jester)
Spiritseer
5 guard w cannons
Wave serpent, TL scatter, shuricannon, spirit stone
5 wraithblades
wraithlord, scatter, brightlance
wraithknight, suncannon, scatter

I was way behind in VPs due to not really holding the objectives but caught up in the end to win the battle leaving a single Vostroyan alive on the tabletop.

So, how did the Eldar fare?

Wraithknight.....yes, even with the suncannon, this guy is sick. Rampaged through the Vostroyan lines destroying both leman russes in assault, plus a command sqd, regular sqd and hvy weapons sqd. Also killed an entire sqd with the suncannon in 1 round of shooting. Lost 1 wound.
so no D weapons and this guy still wrecked shop. Will only bring him out occasionally from now on.

wraithguard.... I think people are just overconcerned with these guys. Yes, D Table is scary, and yes, they wrecked a chimera, but once out of the wave serpent, they can be taken down relatively easily. In all reality, they would have wrecked the chimera in the last edition too. Ended up losing 3 plus the spiritseer to return fire and then babysat an objective the rest of the game.

wraithblades...these guys went bezerk, oh my. The 4+ invuln saved their asses over and over. They chomped through a beat up sqd, then a command sqd, then both mortar platoons, and then finally the warlord himself. Just lopping off limbs with their axes. Lost 3 guys. I won't underestimate them in the future.

wraithlord...didn't do too much but did survive after losing an initial wound. Too much other stuff in Guardsmen faces to finish him off.

harlequin sqd....lost the starweaver and 3/5 early to make them fairly useless, even though I was holding the warlord trait that would have allowed them an extra turn of fighting at end. didn't get cahnce to really use them although they performed admirably in an earlier game vs an assassin force.

Shadow seer....love pyschic shriek with mask of secrets. She is dangerous.

Jester...killed a few Guardsmen but didn't get them to fail Ld tests. I need to figure out how to use him better.

Solitaire....got into combat early, killing off a vet sqd and a second sqd before finally succumbing to volume of fire (took a lot of fire to bring him down). I love this character....he makes people react which is solid in it's own right.

So a good outing, but definitely seeing the hate for the wraithknight.....but not seeing the issue with wraithguard. They will kill their first target, but you shouldn't allow them to kill a second.

My next step is to get the force Bound as quick as possible, probably adding more harlequins and dropping the wraithknight (so Eldar would be allied with addition of a small unit of Rangers)

I'll upload a few pictures shortly

The big problem with the Eldar Dex is that the wraithknight, in any incarnation at any points level, brings about the "uncompetitive apocalypse."

I have played almost exactly this matchup, but the wraithknight forced me, then my opponent, had to get meaner and meaner.

My list is now an absolutely brutal wall with Paskisher/Battlecannon tank star, fully kitted 5x Lascannon platoon with divination psykers and priests and ablative conscripts in front with an aegis line... Eventually, when you get to the point where Pask and Pals can drill a wraithknight with one full prescience'd salvo, and the Lascannons can turn on Ignores Cover to pop open a WS for a single Battlecannon to wipe the Wraithguard inside, the guard start coming out on top.

Did either player have fun? Well..no, and eventually we agreed to a bit of a nuclear disarmament. But you can't take anything but the most razor-competitive guard list if your opponent wants to run one wraithknight. Because there's maybe two things in a guard list that can take it out before it makes it's points back.

Wraith blades have never been complained about. Specifically the problematic Eldar units are Scatterbikes, WS-mounted D-scythe Wraithguard, and wraithknights of all builds. Those three will hammer down any non-competitive build almost single handedly.

I know wraithblades haven't been accused of cheese, actually the opposite where it's indicated they are pretty worthless. I just disagree with that position.

My list is now an absolutely brutal wall with Paskisher/Battlecannon tank star, fully kitted 5x Lascannon platoon with divination psykers and priests and ablative conscripts in front with an aegis line... Eventually, when you get to the point where Pask and Pals can drill a wraithknight with one full prescience'd salvo, and the Lascannons can turn on Ignores Cover to pop open a WS for a single Battlecannon to wipe the Wraithguard inside, the guard start coming out on top.

Isn't this the moment the eldar player starts to use invisibility on his WK

Two paths really jump out at me:

-Go the competitive route - not sure the optimal build, but you're one Wraithguard(/blade) unit from Spirit Host. If you thought the Wraiths did well, add BattleFocus. Alternately, two troops make it bound. Winderider Bikes x2 maxxing out ScatterLasers in place of the Troup, you're Bound. And mean. Not a fan, personally.

-Tone it down. At those points, a WK is always going to wreck face. The other Wraiths look both fun and fluffy.

To go bound:
-Harlequins - I use Falchu's Jest (I don't like the Voidweaver, but love my Skyweavers, even if they're overcosted). You could drop the Solitaire and StarWeaver for a Cast of Players. I don't like that formation, but Crusader would do wonders for your Wraithblades. Helps everything else too.

Craftworlders: Get two CWE Troops. Even if you don't usually do CAD, being able to when you want to is a good idea.
Troop Options:
-Rangers. Hide in cover. Might take out a Heavy or Special weapon from time to time. Expect nothing but tree huggers (sit around in terrain, generally doing little), and you'll love them.
-Guardians. Defenders obviously. Back/midfield campers. One Heavy (I prefer Bright lance, although EML can be fun, if overpriced). In cover, takes a little more than a stiff breaze to take them out. In the back/mid field, they'll have to commit something to do it, exposing themselves to your heavy hitters, and not hutting your heavy hitters. Takes potshots with Heavy weapons. Anything with good T and armor save is going to take a little damage if they come close, but consider their Shuriken Catapults as sidearms.

You'll want at least one of the above. Don't abandon the backfield if you want a balanced list. Either could double up.

Honorable Mention - Dire Avengers. Reasonable elitist small arms. You're missing small arms. Expect them not to handle incoming fire, but does decent damage to MEQ and good damage to TEQ. MEQ prices for GEQ survivability, though. Short range synergizes with your list.

I'd avoid Bikes. Doesn't fit your list thematically. Just not you.

Avoid Storm Guardians. Just don't. There might be uses (Warhost + Avatar maybe?), but know other Eldar troops before considering it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other notes -

Wraith Hate:
- The Wraithguard hate is mostly Scytheguard. They were stupid and stupidly good last book. They are even more stupidly good now. Some people are afraid of Wraithcannon Wraithguard, but most people aren't. They're more expensive but stronger Melta equivalents. Without a delivery method (in-codex). Serpent works, but you pay a reasonable cost for what it does when transporting Wraiths.
- Now, Wraithcannons from a WWP is another matter. Basically a better Melta Pod for a *lot* more points. The real problem, though is Scythes + WWP. For good reason. Deletes anything. Shaodfield Archon with Majority Toughness 6 is stupidly good.

Stick to no DE detachment and no Scythes, and your Guard are fine.

-Wraithknight, in any configuration, is crazy. Its a mini titan. Even pointed appropriately, it's a beast that runs the game his way. Your opponent doesn't really get to make decisions. Just not fun. And wouldn't be even if you paid what you should. Now consider how undercosted he is.
One can be played, but requires massive toning down of most lists (yours is fine). But consider what your opponent thinks.

Harlequins:
-It hurts to see a 5man in a starweaver. You could fit in a sixth for just the cost of one more body (I'm always a fan of more Harlies! I love the pics, but was dissapointed to not see them...).

My Death Jester has yet to break a squad. It should be awesome when it happens, but he rarely performs. He's fun, though, and he's part of Heroes Path, so I'd keep taking him.

here are my harlequins



I didn't have a 6th painted so had to go with 5.

As for the force, I do have rangers (I just dropped them to fit into the 1500pt limit we used). and they would have done a better job holding objectives. I would like to add a guardian sqd at some point, but they will probably end up not doing a lot unless my opponents deep strike. Could go 2 x 5 rangers as I have these already.

I could easily do the spirit host as that is my main force...have 20 guard of different configuration, 2 lords, 1 knight...so plenty of options.

As for harlies, I'm still debating which way to go first...I may just go Cegorach's Jest and Heroes path initially as I have the bikes and Void weaver ready to be painted (plus 6th harlie) but want to get up to 3 harlie sqds ASAP. I plan on converting one of the bikes to a harlie champion and use him as an Autarch with banshee mask.

I love the bright colours. Very nice!

Makumba wrote:

My list is now an absolutely brutal wall with Paskisher/Battlecannon tank star, fully kitted 5x Lascannon platoon with divination psykers and priests and ablative conscripts in front with an aegis line... Eventually, when you get to the point where Pask and Pals can drill a wraithknight with one full prescience'd salvo, and the Lascannons can turn on Ignores Cover to pop open a WS for a single Battlecannon to wipe the Wraithguard inside, the guard start coming out on top.

Isn't this the moment the eldar player starts to use invisibility on his WK

He's tried. It's only worked one round of one game. Twice he's actually failed to get invisibility at all (it is only a 50% chance with his ML3 Farseer) and once he got it, and it just meant I dropped pask and pals attacks on the council unit for a round. It's not easy to hide those jebikes out of line of sight where a Battlecannon can't see even one, and the fact that you get to place the template anywhere on the base of the target model (those bikes have big bases) means they have trouble dealing with pie plates. Sure, you can jink, but 10 wounds that will ID your farseer, somethings going through.

That game, the knight did make it to the conscript line and I believe he did end up winning by maelstrom objectives, but it was close enough that it was decided by "D3 Victory point" rolls.

Invisibility is a much tougher power to use when you're casting it on a unit that does not contain the psyker, because then he's got to figure out some other way to survive.

If the Bikes are not super clumped up, a battlecannon often won't be hitting more than two or three, if the Eldar player left them clumped up such that you can score 10 wounds, they probably made a mistake. Then of course the template can scatter, they may be getting a cover save being partially in/behind terrain, etc.

I cant believe how your Axeguard managed to munch through 3 squads. How is that even possible? Was it because the Guard failed LD and then you swept them?

Because Axeguard have very low number of attacks, so they can get bogged down easily.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I cant believe how your Axeguard managed to munch through 3 squads. How is that even possible? Was it because the Guard failed LD and then you swept them?

Because Axeguard have very low number of attacks, so they can get bogged down easily.

they have 3 attacks each on the charge, hitting on 3's killing on 2's (instant death on 2 wound hvy weapon teams)

Battle cannons might not be huge against 27ppm Scatter Bikers, but against 50+ppm Seer Councils that used most of their dice on protecting a WK, it can do some work. If you hit 3, that's wounding on 2s, offering a 4+ jink/cover... More than 1 dead. Average hit on a decent sized unit should be way more than 3.

A battle cannon might not do it alone, but a Seer Council with no defensive powers up are 50+ppm Marines. A Seer Council with defensive powers up should mean its not Invis'ing other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Oh, and I came back to say - beautiful army!)

 Vaktathi wrote:
If the Bikes are not super clumped up, a battlecannon often won't be hitting more than two or three, if the Eldar player left them clumped up such that you can score 10 wounds, they probably made a mistake. Then of course the template can scatter, they may be getting a cover save being partially in/behind terrain, etc.

Sorry, Pask And Pals is Pask and 2 LRBT's. The ten wounds came from two battlecannons, not one, and I had prescience on the squad, making scatter less of a problem. I usually run at least two ML2 Divination prim psykers with my guard list, because I find one of the biggest strengths of IG is how gnarly force multipliers get applied to large units. Want to kill something really dead? Try 150 rending lasguns shots. Divination is particularly nasty when comboed with orders. Oh, we got a bunch of dark eldar transports coming at us? Here, your five lascannons now have twin-linked, splitfire and Ignores Cover, do it boys.

He got cover from jinking but failed I think the third LOS and the farseer ate it. My point is, these things happen in games. People talk about scatterbikes like they're angels who can dance on the head of a pin, when in reality their board footprint is pretty dang big especially if they're trying to avoid blasts. I did get a solid opportunity to nuke them, but it was because he was trying to make sure the WK was both advancing and invisible. They were slightly bunched because we were actually using terrain, which I guess people don't like because it means their "mathematical certainty" mathammer doesn't work as well.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
If the Bikes are not super clumped up, a battlecannon often won't be hitting more than two or three, if the Eldar player left them clumped up such that you can score 10 wounds, they probably made a mistake. Then of course the template can scatter, they may be getting a cover save being partially in/behind terrain, etc.

Sorry, Pask And Pals is Pask and 2 LRBT's. The ten wounds came from two battlecannons, not one, and I had prescience on the squad, making scatter less of a problem.

Ah ok, I missed that, that would make more sense.

bullyboy wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I cant believe how your Axeguard managed to munch through 3 squads. How is that even possible? Was it because the Guard failed LD and then you swept them?

Because Axeguard have very low number of attacks, so they can get bogged down easily.

they have 3 attacks each on the charge, hitting on 3's killing on 2's (instant death on 2 wound hvy weapon teams)

So did the new codex give them 2 attacks base instead of 1?

Rage, IIRC.

and as a side note, the suncannon wraithknight wasn't amazing because of stomp or FNP, the single biggest change that made him a beast was the ability to split fire. Adding a 15pt scatterlaser to shoot at your charge target while blasting another unit with the suncannon is just pure beastly. Best change by far.

Bharring wrote:
Battle cannons might not be huge against 27ppm Scatter Bikers, but against 50+ppm Seer Councils that used most of their dice on protecting a WK, it can do some work. If you hit 3, that's wounding on 2s, offering a 4+ jink/cover... More than 1 dead. Average hit on a decent sized unit should be way more than 3.

A battle cannon might not do it alone, but a Seer Council with no defensive powers up are 50+ppm Marines. A Seer Council with defensive powers up should mean its not Invis'ing other things.

/quote]

bikes have big bases the avarge should be one bike, besides since when do eldar armies protect WK from melee IG ?no idea why he runs a seer councile when he could just take muliple seers.

People talk about scatterbikes like they're angels who can dance on the head of a pin, when in reality their board footprint is pretty dang big especially if they're trying to avoid blasts.

Against anything with less then 30" or more range they do just that. go in to range shot , then avoid your return fire. Also how do the lemmans survive vs eldar to get shoting off in the first place. If the tank death star hide behind LoS blockers it won't be shoting for 2-3 turns and WK can always avoid it. If it deploys where fire lines are clear the WKs blow it up. But that is not even the problem the pask with two russes and two casters means multi CAD, so no ally and what is even a bigger problem it costs a lot more then a single WK.

Take multiple Farseers?

Two from a CAD is possible, but how do you keep them alive? Probably Windriders. Not wasted, sure. But you're capped at 2 farseers. 50% chance of Invis, 50% chance of Fortune. 25% chance of getting neither (or both). And manifesting both reliably will probably take most (all) of your dice.

Alternately, a Seer Council. 2 Farseers right there. Same odds on powers, but easier to manifest. A lot more dice. Still, you can only get so many powers off. You're either protecting the Council well, something else well, or both minimally.

Sure, you can do both. At about 800pts minimum. With diminishing returns.

Even with large bases, how are you only getting one with a *large blast*? Even before factoring in crowding, it might be a large base, but the gap between said bases is, at most, 2". And spread out, scattering is more likely to hit nearly as much as a direct hit. I just don't see it hitting 1 or fewer of a unit, even with large bases.

Eldar have some super scary antitank shooting, sure. But in this case, its Seers plus Wraiths, without DE. Short of a WWP, Wraithguard might be able to blow up that LR on turn 2 *if* they can flat out into your line turn 1 and somehow survive. Seems unlikely. WK is your bigger threat.

As for shooting (OP used Suncannon, which does about as much as a Lasgun to a LR, but we'll assume optimum - 2xWraithcannons), the WK punches way above its points, but not that way. WK shooting LRs assuming 5+ cover:
2x(2/3)(1/6) = 2/9 outright dead LR, independent of remaining HP
2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 16/27 "regular" d3-style pens.

So the WK is probably killing less than 1 LR per round in shooting.

WK is criminally undercoated, but isn't going to wipe out Pask + Pals in one round of shooting. More likely it'll be about 4-5.

Makumba wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Battle cannons might not be huge against 27ppm Scatter Bikers, but against 50+ppm Seer Councils that used most of their dice on protecting a WK, it can do some work. If you hit 3, that's wounding on 2s, offering a 4+ jink/cover... More than 1 dead. Average hit on a decent sized unit should be way more than 3.

A battle cannon might not do it alone, but a Seer Council with no defensive powers up are 50+ppm Marines. A Seer Council with defensive powers up should mean its not Invis'ing other things.

/quote]

bikes have big bases the avarge should be one bike, besides since when do eldar armies protect WK from melee IG ?no idea why he runs a seer councile when he could just take muliple seers.

People talk about scatterbikes like they're angels who can dance on the head of a pin, when in reality their board footprint is pretty dang big especially if they're trying to avoid blasts.

Against anything with less then 30" or more range they do just that. go in to range shot , then avoid your return fire. Also how do the lemmans survive vs eldar to get shoting off in the first place. If the tank death star hide behind LoS blockers it won't be shoting for 2-3 turns and WK can always avoid it. If it deploys where fire lines are clear the WKs blow it up. But that is not even the problem the pask with two russes and two casters means multi CAD, so no ally and what is even a bigger problem it costs a lot more then a single WK.

1) Camo netting+aegis line or a ruin. They've got plenty of range, and Pask can afford to wait for something to come within 24". The Wraithcannons will fail to destroy a Russ in 3+ cover about 80% of the time. He'll sometimes score a six but the loss of a Battlecannon is pretty inconsequential. It takes the Lascannons in my platoon (with Prescience and Ignores Cover from orders) on average 3 turns to kill him, and it takes him 5 turns on average to kill one Russ. He's got to try to close to melee, and I've got a conscript bubble wrap and a 24" kill radius with two things that can get him: Pask and Pals and the Renfing divination power applied to FRFSRF lasguns. And with 3 ml2 psykers I've got that pretty darn reliably.

2) I'm not sure why my setup requires multiple cads in your mind. Guard psykers do not take up an Hq slot. Considering how bonkers Divination is when applied to guard tank squadrons and platoons I'm surprised more people don't get 3.

3) my point isn't that they aren't mobile, it's that they've got a huge footprint. You can't always move and play them perfectly balancing offense and defense like people claim. They're a solid unit for sure and I feel they'll definitely skew the meta towards stuff that can fight them but they're not unstoppable.