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 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Models cannot move through the space occupied by another model. How is getting on "top" of the Rhino?

The space on top of the rhino is not space occupied by the rhino.

Indeed. Now show permission to "hover" units in the air.

I'd be bricking it if a dreadnought was stood on top of my Rhino lol. Might get a bit cramped lol.

 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Models cannot move through the space occupied by another model. How is getting on "top" of the Rhino?

The space on top of the rhino is not space occupied by the rhino.

How does he move "up" on top of the Rhino if it is not terrain?

I need RaW on your allowance for vertical movement in this world of 2D


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Models cannot move through the space occupied by another model. How is getting on "top" of the Rhino?

The space on top of the rhino is not space occupied by the rhino.

Indeed. Now show permission to "hover" units in the air.

Wobbly Model Syndrome. It was legally (deployed is the only way to do this) in a position on top of a Rhino. The Rhino moves (Dreadnought cannot), where is the "actual" location of the Dreadnought now that the Rhino is gone?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Models cannot move through the space occupied by another model. How is getting on "top" of the Rhino?

The space on top of the rhino is not space occupied by the rhino.

How does he move "up" on top of the Rhino if it is not terrain?

I need RaW on your allowance for vertical movement in this world of 2D


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Models cannot move through the space occupied by another model. How is getting on "top" of the Rhino?

The space on top of the rhino is not space occupied by the rhino.

Indeed. Now show permission to "hover" units in the air.

Wobbly Model Syndrome. It was legally (deployed is the only way to do this) in a position on top of a Rhino. The Rhino moves (Dreadnought cannot), where is the "actual" location of the Dreadnought now that the Rhino is gone?

The Dread can not even deploy there since the rino is not terrain.

Models, within the context of the rules, deploy and move only through terrain.

 BlackTalos wrote:
How does he move "up" on top of the Rhino if it is not terrain?

I need RaW on your allowance for vertical movement in this world of 2D

I don't recall ever saying that the dreadnought could move up there.

I was merely questioning the claim that being on top of the rhino was the same as occupying the same space as it.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Wobbly Model Syndrome. It was legally (deployed is the only way to do this) in a position on top of a Rhino. The Rhino moves (Dreadnought cannot), where is the "actual" location of the Dreadnought now that the Rhino is gone?

Cite your permission to deploy him there. The only vertical movement allowed is through terrain.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious. Even if he pulls RAW it should've been clear that that's not legal. I mean I don't think there's a specific rule against urinating on the opponent's models but you wouldn't claim that as a legal move. I mean, unless you were really ticked off with someone trying something like this.

I suppose there could be a few reasons one might do this though:
1) You both agree to this as a house rule under TMIR, preferably before the game starts. If you did this though, prepare for things to get crazy and broken fast, but I suppose that's probably what you want if you're agreeing to stuff like this.
2) Wobbly Model Syndrome: You place it on the Rhino instead of weird terrain nearby but make it clear that that's where it's supposed to be and hold it there if it's being shot at or something. Don't know why one would put it there instead of flat terrain unless you're looking for an excuse to stack your figurines (which would be a bit odd, but okay) or the area is so saturated with friendly models that there's no flat terrain left (in which case, brace for template weapons!).
3) You put things on the Rhino to show that they're inside, which is close enough to sensible I suppose but really shouldn't be necessary unless your opponent keeps forgetting what's inside shooting at 'em. "For the last time Larry, it's 10 Tactical Marines with 8 Boltguns, a Plasma Gun and a Lascannon! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THIS?!"

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Dread can not even deploy there since the rino is not terrain.

Models, within the context of the rules, deploy and move only through terrain.

Move, agreed. Deploy, have you got restrictions on where to deploy?

My book says:
"models must either deploy within their deployment zone, (...) can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport (...) may not be deployed in impassable terrain. Note that models must be deployed fully within their deployment zone:"

So, within deployment zone, not in impassable terrain. On top of a Rhino is a permissible "within deployment zone" just as on top of Bastion is.
Some reading for you before you reply:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/617069.page#7240655

Fragile wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Wobbly Model Syndrome. It was legally (deployed is the only way to do this) in a position on top of a Rhino. The Rhino moves (Dreadnought cannot), where is the "actual" location of the Dreadnought now that the Rhino is gone?

Cite your permission to deploy him there. The only vertical movement allowed is through terrain.

"models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve". See above.

Cite restrictions deployment within your deployment zone.

As for movement, we use the rules for movement, and i agree "only vertical movement allowed is through terrain".

 BlackTalos wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Dread can not even deploy there since the rino is not terrain.

Models, within the context of the rules, deploy and move only through terrain.

Move, agreed. Deploy, have you got restrictions on where to deploy?

My book says:
"models must either deploy within their deployment zone, (...) can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport (...) may not be deployed in impassable terrain. Note that models must be deployed fully within their deployment zone:"

So, within deployment zone, not in impassable terrain. On top of a Rhino is a permissible "within deployment zone" just as on top of Bastion is.
Some reading for you before you reply:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/617069.page#7240655.

On top of a model is not "within deployment zone"

Isn't it?

If I'm in the kitchen, is the hat that's on my head also in the kitchen?

 insaniak wrote:
Isn't it?

If I'm in the kitchen, is the hat that's on my head also in the kitchen?

LOL, so true. Or this. If I'm in a room, are the pants I'm wearing also in a room?

 insaniak wrote:
Isn't it?

If I'm in the kitchen, is the hat that's on my head also in the kitchen?

In the context of the rules, being within the deployment zone means to be on terrain.

The Rhino is not terrain.

I don't understand why this question is still ongoing. The game has a rule that models may not move through other models. And since no plastic model can physically pass through the plastic of another model, this must be referring to the model's location on the horizontal plane. Otherwise the rule would be pointless, because a wall of infantry standing base to base could be passed over by another unit of non-jump infantry because they "went over the other unit, not through".

How is this even a thing?

If "riding" on models is legal how about I put a Land Raider on top of a rhino, on top of another rhino? They all would stack pretty easy. Move lowest rhino (and the rest of the stack) 12", then move the 2nd rhino (and the landraider on top) 12" more, and then move the land raider 6" more, and finally disembark my terminators in my opponents deployment zone for a turn 1 charge into whatever unit I "aimed" at.

A model cannot voluntarily leave the board. It is either on the board or in terrain. Hovering on top of another moving is not a legal place for either movement or deployment.

 Bill1138 wrote:
The game has a rule that models may not move through other models. And since no plastic model can physically pass through the plastic of another model, this must be referring to the model's location on the horizontal plane.

Yes and no. It's intended (IMO) to stop people from trying to move models through intervening models where there wouldn't actually be room for them to go. Obviously they don't think anyone is actually going to try pushing one model physically through another, but the assumption that, say, a marine would be able to push through between two other marines in front of him isn't an unreasonable one, and so they added this rule to make it clear that you can't do that.

Movement isn't really the issue, though. There are no rules that would allow a model to move over another model, so moving up onto the top of the rhino would require some very specific circumstance... like perhaps having the rhino sitting beside a ledge the same height as the rhino's roof, where a model could just walk from the ledge to the rhino.

Deployment is a different issue, and you'll find differing opinions on whether the rules actually have an issue with one model being deployed on another. Whether or not they should be able to do so tends to be less contentious.

 insaniak wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
The game has a rule that models may not move through other models. And since no plastic model can physically pass through the plastic of another model, this must be referring to the model's location on the horizontal plane.

Yes and no. It's intended (IMO) to stop people from trying to move models through intervening models where there wouldn't actually be room for them to go. Obviously they don't think anyone is actually going to try pushing one model physically through another, but the assumption that, say, a marine would be able to push through between two other marines in front of him isn't an unreasonable one, and so they added this rule to make it clear that you can't do that.

Movement isn't really the issue, though. There are no rules that would allow a model to move over another model, so moving up onto the top of the rhino would require some very specific circumstance... like perhaps having the rhino sitting beside a ledge the same height as the rhino's roof, where a model could just walk from the ledge to the rhino.

Deployment is a different issue, and you'll find differing opinions on whether the rules actually have an issue with one model being deployed on another. Whether or not they should be able to do so tends to be less contentious.

The top of a vehicle isn't a battlement. It isn't Terrain. It doesn't have levels. There are no rules in the game permitting a model to move onto it, even if a level of ruins is at an equal elevation to the top of the vehicle.

My point regarding moving or deployment is that there are no rules that state that this is permitted, and there are several whose implications are that it is not. Moving onto another model is the same thing as moving halfway through it. And if two models were permitted to deploy overlapping in such a way would mean that neither unit would be allowed to move for the rest of the game, being as any movement would be partially through the other unit.

 Bill1138 wrote:

My point regarding moving or deployment is that there are no rules that state that this is permitted, ....

For movement, no.

For deployment, that depends entirely on whether or not you consider standing on something in your deployment zone to count as being in the deployment zone.

 insaniak wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:

My point regarding moving or deployment is that there are no rules that state that this is permitted, ....

For movement, no.

For deployment, that depends entirely on whether or not you consider standing on something in your deployment zone to count as being in the deployment zone.

That wasn't my argument. Being in your deployment zone isn't the only requirement for deploying. It is possible to deploy illegally within your deployment zone. I might put an assassin in what was agreed to be Impassible Terrain, or I might deploy a Flier on the board that's not on a Skyshield Landing Pad. In both of these cases, the unit in question was solidly within my deployment zone, but not legally deployed.

If a unit is not allowed to be on another unit, then either deploying on it or moving through it are both out of the question. The top of a vehicle is not terrain. It is not a battlement. There are no rules allowing a model to deploy on a vehicle any more than there are rules allowing characters to deploy in a Monstrous Creature's arms.

If you're allowed to put something into your deployment zone, then you're allowed to put it anywhere in your deployment zone that a specific rule doesn't forbid.

 insaniak wrote:
If you're allowed to put something into your deployment zone, then you're allowed to put it anywhere in your deployment zone that a specific rule doesn't forbid.

Is there a rule in the book you can quote that supports that position of, "you can, so long as it doesn't say you can't"? The rule that describes where you're allowed to deploy only mentions terrain, open or otherwise. It does not permit you to deploy on something that is not terrain (aka another unit). There is a rule saying you may not move or pivot through another unit, friend or foe. There is no explicit rule permitting two units to start the game sharing the same space (in or on each other) apart from embarking within a transport.

BRB page 132,

Models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity. Units may not be deployed in impassable terrain. Note that models must be deployed fully within their deployment zone: you can't have part of a model inside the deployment zone and part of the model outside it.

BRB page 18

A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase, and can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around.

So if you argue that one unit may be deployed upon another, then both units are immobile until one of them is removed as a casualty, because any movement at all from either of them would be a violation of the rule on page 18.

 Bill1138 wrote:
Is there a rule in the book you can quote that supports that position of, "you can, so long as it doesn't say you can't"?

No, but that's not my position.

My position is that you can do the things the book says you can do, so long as it doesn't say you can't.

You're told you can put models in your deployment zone. So you can put models in your deployment zone. A model on top of another model in your deployment zone is in your deployment zone. A model on top of another model inside terrain is inside terrain.

Note that I don't think we are supposed to be able to put models on top of other models. This is just a side-effect of GW removing the rule from previous editions that counted other models as impassable terrain.

So if you argue that one unit may be deployed upon another, then both units are immobile until one of them is removed as a casualty, because any movement at all from either of them would be a violation of the rule on page 18.

The model on top could arguably move off, but yes, that's pretty much what I said in my first post in this thread.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Isn't it?

If I'm in the kitchen, is the hat that's on my head also in the kitchen?

In the context of the rules, being within the deployment zone means to be on terrain.

The Rhino is not terrain.

That is not the context of the rule. At all. It has as much in common as the interpretation that "anywhere on the table" requires the model to be physically placed upon the table surface. Which we know to be false

You have permission to place it fully in your deployment zone. COunter with a rules quote specifically denying this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Isn't it?

If I'm in the kitchen, is the hat that's on my head also in the kitchen?

In the context of the rules, being within the deployment zone means to be on terrain.

The Rhino is not terrain.

That is not the context of the rule. At all. It has as much in common as the interpretation that "anywhere on the table" requires the model to be physically placed upon the table surface. Which we know to be false

You have permission to place it fully in your deployment zone. COunter with a rules quote specifically denying this.

This.
Even though deployment on top of Rhinos is broken, it is still possible by RaW... But has absolutely no advantage gain for the game, so why bother doing it?

 insaniak wrote:
Movement isn't really the issue, though. There are no rules that would allow a model to move over another model, so moving up onto the top of the rhino would require some very specific circumstance... like perhaps having the rhino sitting beside a ledge the same height as the rhino's roof, where a model could just walk from the ledge to the rhino.

I would disagree with that circumstance. Either the model is on the edge of the ledge, or he's not. If he moves off the ledge "towards" the Rhino, his position would be on the ground, next to the ledge.
This because he has no Horizontal movement permission while "up in a building" other than permission to be in that terrain through the "Moving through terrain" rule.

TL: DR - permission to move "up or over any terrain" does not allow stepping onto a model from there. (IMHO)

How is deploying on, or moving onto a vehicle any different than doing so on a building without battlements?

 Bill1138 wrote:
How is deploying on, or moving onto a vehicle any different than doing so on a building without battlements?

Deploying onto a Vehicle is the same a Deploying onto a Battlement, you get to deploy "in your deployment zone". No restrictions about "where", oh, apart from "may not be deployed in impassable terrain", but that's about it....

Moving "onto battlement" is possible because the battlement are Difficult Terrain:

Battlements are treated as a separate piece of terrain from the building that they are on top of. They are difficult terrain.

You can disembark onto battlement, here's the Rule:"a unit inside the building can disembark onto the battlements, or vice-versa". Have you got any Rules about how to disembark onto the top of a Unit?

I doubt you'll find any, so no, moving "onto" a Vehicle is not permitted in the Rules. Moving "onto" Battlements uses the permission i've quoted above

 insaniak wrote:
The sad thing is that once upon a time, the dreadnought could have just gone in the rhino...

Remember the old Ork rules where you could pile infantry high on a vehicle but if they fell off when you moved it they were treated as falling off in game?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
How is deploying on, or moving onto a vehicle any different than doing so on a building without battlements?

Deploying onto a Vehicle is the same a Deploying onto a Battlement, you get to deploy "in your deployment zone". No restrictions about "where", oh, apart from "may not be deployed in impassable terrain", but that's about it....

Moving "onto battlement" is possible because the battlement are Difficult Terrain:

Battlements are treated as a separate piece of terrain from the building that they are on top of. They are difficult terrain.

You can disembark onto battlement, here's the Rule:"a unit inside the building can disembark onto the battlements, or vice-versa". Have you got any Rules about how to disembark onto the top of a Unit?

I doubt you'll find any, so no, moving "onto" a Vehicle is not permitted in the Rules. Moving "onto" Battlements uses the permission i've quoted above

I did say "without Battlements". The comment was to point out the absurdity of saying that vehicles essentially have battlements because the rules don't say that they don't.

My point was that occupying the space on top of a vehicle is no different than occupying the space on top of a building. The hang up is that some Buildings have Battlements which allow models to be deployed on them, while building without Battlements may not be deployed upon or moved into. Vehicles do NOT have Battlements. Not having Battlements means the top of it is impassable up until it is wrecked and becomes difficult Terrain.

Rules quote that a model is impassable terrain

THis was removed in 7th, so you may struggle wit hthis. So dont claim it.

 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Models cannot move through the space occupied by another model. How is getting on "top" of the Rhino?

The space on top of the rhino is not space occupied by the rhino.

But the unit would have to enter the Rhino's "space" to get on top...
Yeah, this is right around the kind of arguing of rules where you look at your opponent and say "Really? You really want to do this? Show where permission is given to do this in the rules."
We could then do away with those "bulky" rules for transport and hang the passengers on top of the Rhino.
Silly, silly, shenanigans.