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CaptainSuperglue wrote:
I agree, but in this case there is a conflict between the two, which is ignored by everyone because it makes sense to ignore it.

There is no conflict. From 'More Than One Weapon' in the Weapons section of the main rulebook:

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons. However, it's worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close cobat.

He's not trying to use the Melee profile of a pistol he shot in the Shooting phase/Overwatch. He still has two or more Melee weapons so he gets the +1 attack in close combat even though he shot with the pistol.

CaptainSuperglue wrote:

Parsalian wrote:
This is going to sound childish and whiny, but omg stop ignoring my comment, lol.

pistols are never that "attacking weapon" and therefore don't technically need a second profile. They have 1 profile which also labels them as "melee." This bonus attack is taken ON THE OTHER MELEE WEAPON'S STAT LINE.

I am sorry, I was not trying to be rude, I was worried I may be posting too much and didn't want to ruin the thread. I didn't exactly ignore you though, my point in the last post still applys to your reply, in that a weapon that can be used in more than one phase should have two profiles (BRB P41) and the pistol only has 1 profile. Therefore it cannot be used in both phases, you'd have to select which phase to use the single given profile in, unless you can find something that lets you use the same profile in two turns with a melee weapon.... which would apply to the RoC too... which gets us back on topic instead of talking about bolt pistols!

All good! I think one thing to keep in mind is that within my example at least, the Particle caster has only 1 profile, but in that profile it explicitly labels it as a pistol. Even when using the weapon, the profile remains in effect after it has been used (it would remain in effect until the turn ends) and therefore you still have that melee weapon equipped. You're not actually USING the pistol, you're simply gaining the benefit for HAVING it, which is all that's required for gaining the "two melee weapons" bonus.

The rules for pistol clearly state in the rulebook "Pistols are effectively Assault 1 weapons. A Pistol also counts as a ccw IN THE ASSAULT PHASE. (pg. 41 and 44)." Even if you're forced to choose which action you want to take per turn, the rules here clearly state that in different phases, you're gaining different special rules for having that weapon. In the assault phase, it counts as a ccw and therefore provides the benefit for two weapons even though you're not electing to attack with that profile (and likely can't if the rule in question for this thread is taken literally).

In the end, this means that if you shoot with a pistol in the shooting phase, you can still confer the +1 attack bonus while attacking with a different weapon since your combined weapon profiles have two melee weapons present.

Yeah and I doubt anyone would seriously play it that way, but you can't apply half a rule to one army and not apply it to others, even if it makes no sense to do so, and, this is as close to doing that as you can get. The melee weapon on a praetorian just disappears after being fired, leaving the necron with no ability RAW to attack back in close combat at all after overwatching, but the bolt pistol still 'counts as' a CCW for a marine, giving him a +1 attack.
If it doesn't make sense when applied to everyone, it probably isn't correct when applied to the few units like shining spears, praetorians and scorpians where the conflict takes place.

Gravmyr wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Well put, but where does it clearly state that the profile of the weapon has been changed or that the weapon in question ignores the other part of its profile?

When you choose which profile to use for the turn it ends that issue. If I choose the shooting profile and then you state that it still has melee then you are using the other profile which breaks the rules as I chose to use the shooting profile.

There is only one profile, where are you getting the other profile('s) from. The one profile has two lines as per the BRB Pg 41, and a player chooses which line from the profile to use in a given turn. The Weapon's profile still has Melee in it as part of one of its lines.

CaptainSuperglue wrote:
Yeah and I doubt anyone would seriously play it that way, but you can't apply half a rule to one army and not apply it to others, even if it makes no sense to do so, and, this is as close to doing that as you can get. The melee weapon on a praetorian just disappears after being fired, leaving the necron with no ability RAW to attack back in close combat at all after overwatching, but the bolt pistol still 'counts as' a CCW for a marine, giving him a +1 attack.
If it doesn't make sense when applied to everyone, it probably isn't correct when applied to the few units like shining spears, praetorians and scorpians where the conflict takes place.

Well that's why you might advocate for taking the Particle Caster and Voidblade instead of the rod. You can actually take advantage of the formation benefit in the shooting phase, plus you can shoot and assault and even benefit from having additional attacks...so basically RAW means that going w/ Particle Casters + Voidblades is the only thing that currently makes sense.

CaptainSuperglue wrote:
The melee weapon on a praetorian just disappears after being fired, leaving the necron with no ability RAW to attack back in close combat at all after overwatching, but the bolt pistol still 'counts as' a CCW for a marine, giving him a +1 attack.

The Melee profile on the Rod of Covenant does not 'disappear' if the Triarch Praetorian decides to shoot with the Rod. It still has a Melee profile, it just can't use that profile.

The bottom line is GW has a number of rules between BRB and codices that completely conflict. Compounding this is their apparent disregard for checking over these discrepancies before publishing new content. Case in point are the rods of covenant, why make them assault 1, it completely begs a debate over the page 41 rule in the BRB. If that rule is intended to do what it plainly says, and it's not a typo, the shooting profile of a duel profile weapon should never be assault x, since if you shoot it assaulting with it is rendered moot. Make them rapid fire, or heavy 1 with a special rule that says they can still move and shoot. Something that doesn't cause the mind to immediately connect shooting with them and then assaulting with them - thus making the discovery of the rule on page 41 of the BRB that much harder to swallow.

This issue does not just affect Rods it affects many other split profile weapons. Gauntlets of Ultramar are the exact same way in that they have a line for shooting and a line for melee in their profile.

Then Sm players using Marn Cal shot before charging he cannot use the Melee line in the profile and loses the Power fist attacks.

While I have not seen the new Craftworld Codex I know there are many weapons used by the Eldar that are affected in the same way.

Orock wrote:It says that you cannot use that weapon any other way for the rest of the turn, that means you discard ALLLLL stats of it. It will be base str and ap -. It works the same way with the burnas.Weither you want to accept it is irrelivent. You cant benefit from the higher str on the stat line because you used it as a gun.

It never says that. At all. Period. It only says "you can choose which to use", not "once a weapon uses one of its profiles it cannot be used any other way", or "you choose which one to use".

blaktoof wrote:pistols do not have a dual profile of (shooting) then (generic ccwpn or +1 attack as an additional weapon) they are just 1 profile with a special rule that gives a bonus attack in assault.

This is incorrect. Pistols are considered to be a CCW in the Assault Phase. In fact it says this twice. This is the same whether being the BP/Chainsword of the Assault Marine, or the Bolt Pistol of the Tactical or Devastator Marine. Instead of cluttering up every single Pistol Profile with a second profile, it is condensed in the Pistol Type. This is not exclusive to those who wish to just add an Attack.

So Tacticals who fire their Pistols than Charge are in the same boat as Rodtorians, having a dual-profile weapon they've already shot with that turn.

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:pistols do not have a dual profile of (shooting) then (generic ccwpn or +1 attack as an additional weapon) they are just 1 profile with a special rule that gives a bonus attack in assault.

This is incorrect. Pistols are considered to be a CCW in the Assault Phase. In fact it says this twice. This is the same whether being the BP/Chainsword of the Assault Marine, or the Bolt Pistol of the Tactical or Devastator Marine. Instead of cluttering up every single Pistol Profile with a second profile, it is condensed in the Pistol Type. This is not exclusive to those who wish to just add an Attack.

So Tacticals who fire their Pistols than Charge are in the same boat as Rodtorians, having a dual-profile weapon they've already shot with that turn.

Again, read above, this is not the same thing. Pistol + [insert other weapon here] falls into its own category, since you're going to use the second melee weapon as your attacking weapon for assault. The pistol's benefit is solely in the bonus attack which adds to the second weapons total attack count. You're not attacking a second time in the same turn with the pistol. You've attacked only once and then attacked with a DIFFERENT melee weapon. This does not break the rule for "once per turn" but you still gain the benefit listed since it explicitly lists it as a ccw.

Parsalian wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Orock wrote:It says that you cannot use that weapon any other way for the rest of the turn, that means you discard ALLLLL stats of it. It will be base str and ap -. It works the same way with the burnas.Weither you want to accept it is irrelivent. You cant benefit from the higher str on the stat line because you used it as a gun.

It never says that. At all. Period. It only says "you can choose which to use", not "once a weapon uses one of its profiles it cannot be used any other way", or "you choose which one to use".

blaktoof wrote:pistols do not have a dual profile of (shooting) then (generic ccwpn or +1 attack as an additional weapon) they are just 1 profile with a special rule that gives a bonus attack in assault.

This is incorrect. Pistols are considered to be a CCW in the Assault Phase. In fact it says this twice. This is the same whether being the BP/Chainsword of the Assault Marine, or the Bolt Pistol of the Tactical or Devastator Marine. Instead of cluttering up every single Pistol Profile with a second profile, it is condensed in the Pistol Type. This is not exclusive to those who wish to just add an Attack.

So Tacticals who fire their Pistols than Charge are in the same boat as Rodtorians, having a dual-profile weapon they've already shot with that turn.

Again, read above, this is not the same thing. Pistol + [insert other weapon here] falls into its own category, since you're going to use the second melee weapon as your attacking weapon for assault. The pistol's benefit is solely in the bonus attack which adds to the second weapons total attack count. You're not attacking a second time in the same turn with the pistol. You've attacked only once and then attacked with a DIFFERENT melee weapon. This does not break the rule for "once per turn" but you still gain the benefit listed since it explicitly lists it as a ccw.

Tactical marines have no "normal" ccw. So when they charge having fired their pistol, what do they attack with?

my apologies, I conflated both of those statements. You're correct. For the Tactical marines, they'd fall into this ruling of having no more available weapons with which to attack. But for the Bolt Pistol/Chain sword combo for which I intended to reply, they can still attack.

Parsalian wrote:
my apologies, I conflated both of those statements. You're correct. For the Tactical marines, they'd fall into this ruling of having no more available weapons with which to attack. But for the Bolt Pistol/Chain sword combo for which I intended to reply, they can still attack.

This would only apply, though, if one insists that the multiple profile rule states a weapon can only use one profile per turn.

But the rule is not explicit in stating this. It is an assumption made by people putting their own view on it, or those who choose to limit themselves or others.

Charistoph wrote:

Parsalian wrote:
my apologies, I conflated both of those statements. You're correct. For the Tactical marines, they'd fall into this ruling of having no more available weapons with which to attack. But for the Bolt Pistol/Chain sword combo for which I intended to reply, they can still attack.

This would only apply, though, if one insists that the multiple profile rule states a weapon can only use one profile per turn.

But the rule is not explicit in stating this. It is an assumption made by people putting their own view on it, or those who choose to limit themselves or others.

Okay well to reiterate something I said before, I don't personally agree with it, but RAW states that you must choose one profile to use per turn. I don't remember the specific word-for-word explanation, but RAW also states that you can't use a weapon twice in a turn. This overlap leads to the dilemma that if a weapon has two profiles, you choose one and won't be able to use the other even though you still count as having both profiles. This is why pistols allow you to gain the benefit of multiple ccws even after firing.

Neither of those things are "personal views" or an attempt to "limit" anyone. It's simply RAW.

Parsalian wrote:
Okay well to reiterate something I said before, I don't personally agree with it, but RAW states that you must choose one profile to use per turn. I don't remember the specific word-for-word explanation, but RAW also states that you can't use a weapon twice in a turn. This overlap leads to the dilemma that if a weapon has two profiles, you choose one and won't be able to use the other even though you still count as having both profiles. This is why pistols allow you to gain the benefit of multiple ccws even after firing.

Neither of those things are "personal views" or an attempt to "limit" anyone. It's simply RAW.

Here is the paragraph:
"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon’s profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

Not once in the bolded section is a quantitative value used. In fact, I could put quantitative values, singular or plural, in the bolded section, and while it would change the meaning, it would not change the flow of the sentence. The only limitation here is one you the player decide to make.

Now, the Shooting Sequence simply states:
"First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with. The selected weapon cannot be one that the unit has shot with during this phase."

So, you cannot Shoot the same weapon twice in the same Phase. But if I use my Deathmarks to counter-Deep Strike and fire on a target, they can still fire Overwatch if they get charged.

For the Assault Phase, the only limitation is under More Than One Weapon in the Weapons section:
"If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

So the only actual quantitative rules that give a specific limit are those involved with Phases, and nothing to do with Turns. There is an assumption that can be made, but it can be read many different ways, and is not specific.

This argument was already discussed, and unless I completely misunderstood, I thought that it was more or less stated that this isn't correct. Again, I'm no expert, nor do I know the rules any better than most, but I'd rather not go in circles over and over.

No no no no

If you get to do something "each turn" you cant assume that you can do it more than once each turn. That would break the game in a lot of other examples.
Grimoire of true names can be be used during the movement phase. Whats to say i cant use it 5 times during the phase? Common sense! And not breaking the game.

As for having comments ignored. I've twice pointed out that RAW any weapon with the melee type cannot be used outside of close combat!

And people are still arguing that you do or dont get to attack in close combat. If you ignore that, why not ignore the need for a ccw to attack?

 jokerkd wrote:
No no no no

If you get to do something "each turn" you cant assume that you can do it more than once each turn. That would break the game in a lot of other examples.
Grimoire of true names can be be used during the movement phase. Whats to say i cant use it 5 times during the phase? Common sense! And not breaking the game.

The Grimiore has a timing when it occurs, yes?

When is the timing for choosing the profile of a Weapon? When it asks for one.

And there is no limit as to how many profiles can be chosen each turn.

Seriously why do people think you need to have a close combat weapon to make melee attacks????

SERIOUSLY! Some people are assuming this with no real basis. If there's rule that states please give the page number.

 Silent_Tempest wrote:
Seriously why do people think you need to have a close combat weapon to make melee attacks????

SERIOUSLY! Some people are assuming this with no real basis. If there's rule that states please give the page number.

Let me ask you this. Assume we both have models (with SM statlines) in melee. One model each. Mine has a melee weapon, yours has no weapon (and for sake of this experiment does not have the "free ccw").

At the same Initiative step we both get our 1 attack. We both roll to hit comparing WS, we both hit. I roll To Wound, using the Strength of my weapon vs your Toughness. What strength do you use to roll To Wound? Remember, the rules for assault say to use the strength of the weapon.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Silent_Tempest wrote:
Seriously why do people think you need to have a close combat weapon to make melee attacks????

SERIOUSLY! Some people are assuming this with no real basis. If there's rule that states please give the page number.

Let me ask you this. Assume we both have models (with SM statlines) in melee. One model each. Mine has a melee weapon, yours has no weapon (and for sake of this experiment does not have the "free ccw").

At the same Initiative step we both get our 1 attack. We both roll to hit comparing WS, we both hit. I roll To Wound, using the Strength of my weapon vs your Toughness. What strength do you use to roll To Wound? Remember, the rules for assault say to use the strength of the weapon.

Reading page 50 "Rolling to wound" I see no mention of a weapon requirement. It does say "use the attacker's strength".

What are some examples of actual units with no melee weapon and no free ccw ?

Charistoph wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
No no no no

If you get to do something "each turn" you cant assume that you can do it more than once each turn. That would break the game in a lot of other examples.
Grimoire of true names can be be used during the movement phase. Whats to say i cant use it 5 times during the phase? Common sense! And not breaking the game.

The Grimiore has a timing when it occurs, yes?

When is the timing for choosing the profile of a Weapon? When it asks for one.

And there is no limit as to how many profiles can be chosen each turn.

Yes there is. Choose which line to use each turn only permits one each turn. When in the turn depends on when you need to.
The timing for the grimoire is only different in that you have a whole phase to use it, not a whole turn. If there is no limit on how many times you can choose profiles, then the same argument applies to me giving every unit in my army a 3++ in one phase

 jokerkd wrote:
Yes there is. Choose which line to use each turn only permits one each turn.

If that is what it said, than you would be correct.

Only, it doesn't say "choose which line to use each turn", just "choose which to use each turn". No number is mentioned or used. The addition of "line", "one", or "profile", has been constantly used as "proof" for this. And if adding words was a way to prove a theory, than I can also add my own to say, "choose which lines to use each turn". So, proven wrong in the same way.

 jokerkd wrote:
The timing for the grimoire is only different in that you have a whole phase to use it, not a whole turn. If there is no limit on how many times you can choose profiles, then the same argument applies to me giving every unit in my army a 3++ in one phase.

Except that choosing a weapon profile and line do occur at specific times. Nothing in that paragraph states that the choice of Weapon Profile line lasts the duration of the turn and alternate lines cannot be chosen.

The bottom line is GW has a number of rules between BRB and codices that completely conflict. Compounding this is their apparent disregard for checking over these discrepancies before publishing new content. Case in point are the rods of covenant, why make them assault 1, it completely begs a debate over the page 41 rule in the BRB. If that rule is intended to do what it plainly says, and it's not a typo, the shooting profile of a duel profile weapon should never be assault x, since if you shoot it assaulting with it is rendered moot. Make them rapid fire, or heavy 1 with a special rule that says they can still move and shoot. Something that doesn't cause the mind to immediately connect shooting with them and then assaulting with them - thus making the discovery of the rule on page 41 of the BRB that much harder to swallow.

Charistoph wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Yes there is. Choose which line to use each turn only permits one each turn.

If that is what it said, than you would be correct.

Only, it doesn't say "choose which line to use each turn", just "choose which to use each turn". No number is mentioned or used. The addition of "line", "one", or "profile", has been constantly used as "proof" for this. And if adding words was a way to prove a theory, than I can also add my own to say, "choose which lines to use each turn". So, proven wrong in the same way.

there will be a separate line in the weapon’s profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn.

Yeah i dont know where everyone gets the words "line" and "profile" from........

Peteralmo, they are assault weapons because they can assault after shooting. They do get to attack but without the strength and ap of the rod. It's been explained that either choosing which line to use means you count as only having that line, or it counts as having both and therefore can never shoot because the melee type rule forbids it

Whilst I agree RaW you can't use the Rod in shooting and assault in the same turn due to a poorly worded rule. Applying this rule causes many huge issues. Firstly it stops the unit from being /able to resolve its close combat attacks (as it can't use its melee weapon, but still has a melee weapon so doesn't get a free one). This causes problems for a whole host of weapons (scorpion claws, singing spears, dread CCWs with built in storm bolters/flamers etc), it also breaks the game. As pistols no longer work (they have a special rule allowing them to count as a CCW, a CCW has a profile so as soon as they count as a CCW they gain two profiles and are hit by this rule). For all these reasons we should ignore the RaW here just like we do for say D Weapons or the Psychic Phase.

Fling, I would like to point out an issue with your three examples (Scorp claw, spear and DCCW).
Scorpions come with pistol/sword. the claw replaces the pistol, so you still have the sword to attack with.
Farseers/Warlocks replace their witchblade for the spear, so they still have a pistol (unless they swap it for a relic weapon, but even then they would have either a pistol or melee weapon).
Dread CCW with built-in weapons are two different weapons. This is why you can destroy either the CCW or the built-in weapon.

Not important to the topic on hand, but...


Also I disagree with your interpretation regarding pistols. All pistols have a single profile (unless they have the option to fire different ammunition). I don't know of any pistol that has a shooting and melee profile. As such you can never choose which profile to use - in the shooting phase you have a single profile. Once you get into assault you no longer have a pistol - it is treated as a ccw instead. As such in the assault phase you have a weapon with a single profile.

As a flip side Fling you could just read all those things as short hand. When the book says choose a line to use for the turn as use the line for everything. When it says psychic units read units with models that have..... See how that actually makes the game work as I believe most people are playing it without actually changing the wording? This would also clear up the No Specified Melee Weapon that people seem to be hung up on as you couldn't use that line to say they had a melee weapon.

 Happyjew wrote:
Fling, I would like to point out an issue with your three examples (Scorp claw, spear and DCCW).
Scorpions come with pistol/sword. the claw replaces the pistol, so you still have the sword to attack with.
Farseers/Warlocks replace their witchblade for the spear, so they still have a pistol (unless they swap it for a relic weapon, but even then they would have either a pistol or melee weapon).
Dread CCW with built-in weapons are two different weapons. This is why you can destroy either the CCW or the built-in weapon.

Not important to the topic on hand, but...


Also I disagree with your interpretation regarding pistols. All pistols have a single profile (unless they have the option to fire different ammunition). I don't know of any pistol that has a shooting and melee profile. As such you can never choose which profile to use - in the shooting phase you have a single profile. Once you get into assault you no longer have a pistol - it is treated as a ccw instead. As such in the assault phase you have a weapon with a single profile.

Does it say treated as a CCW instead? Or counts as a CCW and has the CCW profile (whilst never being told it loses it's pistol profile).