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 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
In saying that painted armies are of course better to play with, every one agrees on that. But there is no reason to be upset that someone didn't spend their time on their stuff.

You don't see the contradiction here? If painted armies are clearly better to play with then not painting your army is saying "I don't care enough about your enjoyment of the game to paint my models". And I'd say that's a pretty good reason to criticize someone.

No not really. Its better to be picked up in a flash car than it is to be picked up in a crappy 2 door car, but I don't hold it against the person because by their choice or circumstance they don't have a flash modern car to pick me up in. The fact they took the time to pick me up is fine enough by me. Same with war gaming, if someone hasn't painted their army by choice or circumstance i'm not going to be upset, i'm still happy he took the time to have a game.

You are free to refuse the ride someone has offered because you are not pleased by their vehicle, but there is nothing wrong with accepting the ride either. Usually the latter would be seen as more sensible however and rightfully so.

To be insulted by the fact someone doesn't care for your enjoyment is pretty silly, especially because chances are they don't care about you in the first p[lace when deciding what to do with their time.

At the end of the day, if you play a bad game to merely look at painted things be (re)moved on the table, then maybe it's not worth playing the game in the first place regardless.

I can't really gripe about unpainted minis because then my main battle bro would think I was a jerk. He has had the same Space Wolf army for years. I've watched Sgt. Grey tuck his hot plasma pistol for under his barely primed arm so many times now it just wouldn't be right to paint him!

That and his skill with a brush is neglible thanks to a birth defect that left him kinda lame. We joke that he will seize up one day during a battle and fall on the table. There is also the very real danger of me painting his minis for him. I already had the honour of putting the brush to Njal. That was fun. Almost made me wanna join the pack!

As for myself, I just can't put an unpainted or half finished mini on the table or I feel bad. Not for the other guy, but for my poor nondescript soldiery!

Besides, everyone knows that paint gives you obvious in game benefits. I painted my dudes green and suddenly FnP!

 Dust wrote:
At my LGS there's been a very slight uptick in gray legions simply due to the current release schedule GW's been on. Harlequins, Eldar, new Knights, Skitarii, Ad Mech. Book releases and fresh models have been dropping fast and furious, so fast that not everyone's had a chance to keep up with painting.

That could be a good reason if you collect all those armies, most of us have 1-2, those of us that have more are probably working on back logged army projects.

The reason I like having fully painted games outside of enjoyment for myself is that it promotes our hobby, count how many people gather around to watch your game if the models are painted to a standard quality or higher. In order to promote our hobby pass the gaming with 'toys', we should do our best in all aspects of the hobby so that our 'models' are not 'toys'. Who knows, maybe one day our hobby will be aired on ESPN 2 like they did for video games tourney; they already have poker, I would think MTG isn't far behind as they already air that on a smaller network. Why couldn't 40k?

 Swastakowey wrote:
To be insulted by the fact someone doesn't care for your enjoyment is pretty silly, especially because chances are they don't care about you in the first p[lace when deciding what to do with their time.

And that's just absurd. Of course we should be insulted if another player doesn't care about our enjoyment of the game, because when you play a two-player game you're expected to make sure both players are having fun. We don't acknowledge that the rules lawyer who can't stop swearing at their opponent every time the dice go against them is "just enjoying the game their way", and we don't limit ourselves to being thankful that the guy who bathes once a year is generous enough to play a game with us. We judge those people for their bad behavior, and no reasonable person would question our right to do so. So why is refusing to paint your models any different?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
To be insulted by the fact someone doesn't care for your enjoyment is pretty silly, especially because chances are they don't care about you in the first p[lace when deciding what to do with their time.

And that's just absurd. Of course we should be insulted if another player doesn't care about our enjoyment of the game, because when you play a two-player game you're expected to make sure both players are having fun. We don't acknowledge that the rules lawyer who can't stop swearing at their opponent every time the dice go against them is "just enjoying the game their way", and we don't limit ourselves to being thankful that the guy who bathes once a year is generous enough to play a game with us. We judge those people for their bad behavior, and no reasonable person would question our right to do so. So why is refusing to paint your models any different?

True, bad wording. I meant dont care about your enjoyment of the game when they are at home, in their spare time, usually a fully capable adult with things to do and deciding if they should paint their models or not.

Not painting models is not bad behavior. It's not unhealthy. It's not vital.

All the examples you pointed out is actually bad/inappropriate behavior... in any situation. Not painting models is not close to any of those.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
I only have so much time to spend on my luxury hobbies, why waste it playing against someone who I'm clearly not going to enjoy the time with?

Which also begs the question, why should I use my very limited time on painting when I have the chance to actually get in a game with people I do enjoy spending time with?

It's very simple. Some people are into the modeling and painting side of things, which is great! I want to play games with my friends, so that's where the time gets spent in my hobby.

If you're not in it for modelling then why not ditch miniatures altogether?

Maybe because he enjoys the game?

It can be as enjoyable with counters without wasting money on unpainted miniatures.

The only person who gets to whine about my unprimed models is a person who does more conversion and kitbash work than I do. At my local clubs, that's nobody.

I'm gonna repost what I posted in the last one of these idiotic shaming competitions:

 j31c3n wrote:
I don't care if your army is just bases with unit types written on them in marker (yes, I've actually played against this guy). My army is heavily converted and sometimes takes a week for me to pose a single model (I work very long days). I sometimes put down unpainted models because I am so insanely judgemental about my own army, but no-one else's.

I do not care what state your army is in, I do not care what the board looks like. I've played on boards that were covered in a sheet of paper and area terrain was drawn onto it. It was still fun to me because we were rolling dice and having a good time. Anyone who is going to judge another player by the appearance of their army rather than their character and how enjoyable it is to play with them is just not a person I am interested in playing this game with. Life is too short to spend it associating with people with that kind of attitude.

Similarly, I take great pride in the fluff of my army and I write out little stories about each individual model and why they take the kit they choose and what all their little gubbins represent. I am very fond of how they fit into the universe as a whole. However, I don't care if you're playing My Little Pony Astartes or Hello Kitty Sororiitas, as long as you're a blast to play this game with. Be a good sport and you can play Eldar/Guardsman hybrids and Genestealer Orks and Chaos Tau for all I care.

^Exalted for truth. Nobody should judge another player solely on the condition of their models.

 Crablezworth wrote:
If ya got time to play, you got time to paint. I won't play against unpainted models.

You must have done really bad at maths in school

Ha, I created a thread similar to this some days ago and almost my entire 3500 point Chaos Army is painted except two oblits, a raptor squad and a regular tac squad. So frakkin excited to paint them but my brush got destroyed after I finished my Helbrute earlier this week so I have to get another one.

I have never played anybody with a painted army except my brother. He has an entirely painted 3600 Ultramarine force. But obviously I've played a lot more grey armies than painted ones and I'm utterly use to it. I just won't decline someone who has a grey army and the only things I look for in players is if he/she smells good and are they friendly, that's it. I'm always a bit disappointed to play a grey army but unfortunately, so so many people just don't have it in them to paint whether it be time or money keeping them from doing so.

Anyways, it doesn't matter how you're army looks when you play me, you'll die just the same. How you want to look upon your death is your choice, just die with the dishonor of being grey and boring

 TheNewBlood wrote:
^Exalted for truth. Nobody should judge another player solely on the condition of their models.

Whenever I play a game, I am just glad to be sharing a table with someone cool. Everything else is so secondary compared to that experience that I just do not care about it at all. Bring your WAAC list, bring your fluffy IG Rough Riders led by Space Teddy Roosevelt, I don't care. Let's roll some dice.

 Swastakowey wrote:
No not really. Its better to be picked up in a flash car than it is to be picked up in a crappy 2 door car.

Wait, what makes a 2 door car bad?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
No not really. Its better to be picked up in a flash car than it is to be picked up in a crappy 2 door car.

Wait, what makes a 2 door car bad?

Not just any two door car, a crappy one. Maybe some insects inside, no AC, food all over....ya know....crappy.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
No not really. Its better to be picked up in a flash car than it is to be picked up in a crappy 2 door car.

Wait, what makes a 2 door car bad?

I am over 6ft tall. Most 2 door cars means I can hardly fit. I own a RAV 4, the only 2 door car that actually lets me sit normally. I could say small car, but most of the time... whats the difference eh? I also put crappy in there just in case...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
No not really. Its better to be picked up in a flash car than it is to be picked up in a crappy 2 door car.

Wait, what makes a 2 door car bad? I have never had any trouble finding people who want to go for a cruise in my classic 2 door sports car

My car is a beater that wouldn't sell for $300.00. But you know what? It runs and it gets me from A to B and it rarely lets me down.

 j31c3n wrote:
Anyone who is going to judge another player by the appearance of their army rather than their character and how enjoyable it is to play with them is just not a person I am interested in playing this game with

Appearance of their army is part of how enjoyable it is to play with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
True, bad wording. I meant dont care about your enjoyment of the game when they are at home, in their spare time, usually a fully capable adult with things to do and deciding if they should paint their models or not.

Why does the time of the action matter? There's no difference between doing something during the game that hinders the other player's enjoyment of it and doing something before the game that will have the same effect once the game begins.

All the examples you pointed out is actually bad/inappropriate behavior... in any situation. Not painting models is not close to any of those.

And my point is that not painting models should be treated that way.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Not painting models is not bad behavior. It's not unhealthy. It's not vital.

It's just a question of etiquette. If your local scene demands this, then you should be polite and follow that etiquette. If not, then play them grey.

I'll give you a better example: clothing on beaches!

If you go to a nude beach, you should strip down. If you go to a regular beach, you should wear a bikini or swimwear or other beach-appropriate attire. To do otherwise is actually neither unhealthy or vital; but it is pretty rude and "bad behavior", because you are at a public place with expectations of its guests. In your own home, do whatever you want.

 Peregrine wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Anyone who is going to judge another player by the appearance of their army rather than their character and how enjoyable it is to play with them is just not a person I am interested in playing this game with

Appearance of their army is part of how enjoyable it is to play with them.

My army is not yours. If you (using the general you) want my army painted, then you can fork out the cash for it to be professionally painted.

 Talys wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Not painting models is not bad behavior. It's not unhealthy. It's not vital.

It's just a question of etiquette. If your local scene demands this, then you should be polite and follow that etiquette. If not, then play them grey.

I'll give you a better example: clothing on beaches!

If you go to a nude beach, you should strip down. If you go to a regular beach, you should wear a bikini or swimwear or other beach-appropriate attire. To do otherwise is actually neither unhealthy or vital; but it is pretty rude and "bad behavior", because you are at a public place with expectations of its guests. In your own home, do whatever you want.

Yep and if everyone demands you have to use unpainted then you cant use painted models. That means nothing. If someone demands I use GW models only then I will not play them, just like if someone demands I use painted models.

Being naked around others is offensive/rude to the general public. Children are not allowed to see people naked on television etc, it is also illegal in most places. Unpainted models are none of those. They are simply models without paint. Bad example. Better one would be overweight people. Yes they may not be the nicest to look at on the beach, but you generally don't have a right to tell them to spend the next year getting fit so they are presentable at the beach. Despite everyone wanting to get everyone fit. Its simply their choice, let them be.

 j31c3n wrote:
My army is not yours. If you (using the general you) want my army painted, then you can fork out the cash for it to be professionally painted.

Or I can just refuse to play against you and tell you to paint your army. Hopefully enough other people will do the same, and you will have a choice of either painting your army or never playing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Being naked around others is offensive/rude to the general public. Children are not allowed to see people naked on television etc, it is also illegal in most places. Unpainted models are none of those. They are simply models without paint. Bad example. Better one would be overweight people. Yes they may not be the nicest to look at on the beach, but you generally don't have a right to tell them to spend the next year getting fit so they are presentable at the beach. Despite everyone wanting to get everyone fit. Its simply their choice, let them be.

Ok, so by that example you have no right to complain about the guy who never bathes because it's perfectly legal to smell terrible. It's simply their choice, let them be.

 Peregrine wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
My army is not yours. If you (using the general you) want my army painted, then you can fork out the cash for it to be professionally painted.

Or I can just refuse to play against you and tell you to paint your army. Hopefully enough other people will do the same, and you will have a choice of either painting your army or never playing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Being naked around others is offensive/rude to the general public. Children are not allowed to see people naked on television etc, it is also illegal in most places. Unpainted models are none of those. They are simply models without paint. Bad example. Better one would be overweight people. Yes they may not be the nicest to look at on the beach, but you generally don't have a right to tell them to spend the next year getting fit so they are presentable at the beach. Despite everyone wanting to get everyone fit. Its simply their choice, let them be.

Ok, so by that example you have no right to complain about the guy who never bathes because it's perfectly legal to smell terrible. It's simply their choice, let them be.

Nope, being unhygienic means you are potentially harmful to others (sickness etc). Being overweight has no effect on someone else... usually.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Nope, being unhygienic means you are potentially harmful to others (sickness etc). Being overweight has no effect on someone else... usually.

You can smell terrible and be unpleasant to be around without being a health risk.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Nope, being unhygienic means you are potentially harmful to others (sickness etc). Being overweight has no effect on someone else... usually.

You can smell terrible and be unpleasant to be around without being a health risk.

True, but being unhygienic is also very different to just being fat. Unless the site of the overweight is so bad that you must ask them to leave etc. The ones who don't shower can actually smell rancid. But not liking the look of something is a bit over the top to have a huge dislike of it.

Unpainted armies don't bother me at all. I've been playing for four years and have around 4000 points of Chaos Space Marines, the only models who are painted are two or three terminators, around ten CSM and a Chaos Lord and I wouldn't consider any of them finished. Although there's plenty of stuff in the army in various stages of paint.

I have four steady opponents, one guy with a tau army, around 2500 points and not one mini has made it past half a base coat and the same goes for his grey knights except a stormraven painted entirely silver, even the canopy.

The Raven Guard player uses chaos black primer to spray all his minis, most of them forge world 30k stuff, he then heavily paints the eyes red and does a once over of each pauldron in a thin layer of white scar because despite over ten years in the hobby have doesn't really understand how to paint, like layering and washes etc and has no plans to learn.

My brother, the Salamander, has around the same amount painted that I do and he's been playing the same length of time as me.

And finally, the Blood Angel, pays whoever he can to paint his mind to any standard, leading to a mixed look.

And all of the above is fine, as far as I'm concerned. I don't care how their armies look, the minis themselves are good and I'm enjoying the game. Yeah, 40k may not be the best table top game out there and Warmachine/malifaux/whatever may be a better game but I don't really care, I play because I enjoy the fluff of 40k. I don't know the difference between Menoth, Khador or any of the others and frankly don't care and have no interest in learning, if I wasn't playing 40k I wouldn't be tabletop gaming.

40k is just an excuse for me to hang out with my friends and family and maybe make some new friends while I'm at it with the added bonus of letting me assemble some cool looking kits that I always wanted when I spent my teenage years playing dawn of war, I don't care how your army looks as long as you and I can have a good time.

Maybe within the bounds of this friendship we may decide that painting our minis would be enriching to our hobby experience and I'm sure we'll work out a system to support each other while we do that, but I would never consider it may place to tell anyone else how to spend their money or their free time, let alone ostracise anyone who's half as passionate about the 40k setting as I am because their minis are grey. Anyone who wants to talk fluff or share a few stories is welcome at my table.

Some people like to play the game and paint second. Or some people have painting projects they are working on that isn't in the main army. I spent several weeks painting my Phantom titan and as such didn't have time for my little guys.

I also would rather play first and paint second. The paying of the game is where the fun is. the painting is where you can take a little bit of pride out there. The 2 don't have to go hand in hand and I'll play anybody at any point level with any amount of models painted or unpainted. I even have titans to play against titans, so bring it on.

 Peregrine wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
My army is not yours. If you (using the general you) want my army painted, then you can fork out the cash for it to be professionally painted.

Or I can just refuse to play against you and tell you to paint your army. Hopefully enough other people will do the same, and you will have a choice of either painting your army or never playing.

Your loss. My table is the party table.

Swastakowey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
No not really. Its better to be picked up in a flash car than it is to be picked up in a crappy 2 door car.

Wait, what makes a 2 door car bad?

I am over 6ft tall. Most 2 door cars means I can hardly fit. I own a RAV 4, the only 2 door car that actually lets me sit normally. I could say small car, but most of the time... whats the difference eh? I also put crappy in there just in case...

What's the difference? Well, a lot of 2 door cars are actually quite spacious, it has more to do with cabin layout. Funnily enough I've driven a lot of 2 door cars that have more leg room than some of the large 4x4's I've driven.

I'm just over 6ft (with reasonably long legs) and I fit better in my 2 door vette than I do my 4 door commodore, simply because the seat doesn't move back far enough in the commodore

j31c3n wrote:My car is a beater that wouldn't sell for $300.00. But you know what? It runs and it gets me from A to B and it rarely lets me down.

I've never understood why people bother with fancy modern cars... I'm glad they do because it means I can buy them in 20 years time for almost nothing, but it seems like such a money sink to me.

Anyway, my apologies for taking the thread off topic (not that it's a very useful topic, we had another thread just a few days ago, in fact it's still on page 2: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/650102.page).

 Swastakowey wrote:
True, but being unhygienic is also very different to just being fat. Unless the site of the overweight is so bad that you must ask them to leave etc. The ones who don't shower can actually smell rancid. But not liking the look of something is a bit over the top to have a huge dislike of it.

So now you've gone from "you can only judge people for things that are dangerous/illegal, otherwise let them do what they want" to "you can judge people for things that are safe and legal but unpleasant, but only the things I don't like".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
True, but being unhygienic is also very different to just being fat. Unless the site of the overweight is so bad that you must ask them to leave etc. The ones who don't shower can actually smell rancid. But not liking the look of something is a bit over the top to have a huge dislike of it.

So now you've gone from "you can only judge people for things that are dangerous/illegal, otherwise let them do what they want" to "you can judge people for things that are safe and legal but unpleasant, but only the things I don't like".

I don't know why we have to be judging people at all based on such insignificant things like whether they paint their army or smell bad.

Isn't it enough to just avoid playing against people who don't have painted armies or smell bad if that's what you want to do, I don't see any benefit in judging them other than to appease some petty superiority complex.

I should have expected this thread to go in this direction, but that actually wasn't my intention. I play against unpainted armies, and have no issue doing so. I was actually making an observation about how more of the Grey Legions seem to be popping around where I am, and was wondering if anyone else had noticed this popping up in their local areas. Really, that's it. I am not interested in shaming people, that's a crummy thing to do and I want to encourage people to paint, same with the people at my FLGS, where they host a paint night, so you can just show up, slap down some paint, maybe get in a game. It's nice and relaxed, and they have an airbrush which helps.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
True, but being unhygienic is also very different to just being fat. Unless the site of the overweight is so bad that you must ask them to leave etc. The ones who don't shower can actually smell rancid. But not liking the look of something is a bit over the top to have a huge dislike of it.

So now you've gone from "you can only judge people for things that are dangerous/illegal, otherwise let them do what they want" to "you can judge people for things that are safe and legal but unpleasant, but only the things I don't like".

I don't know why we have to be judging people at all based on such insignificant things like whether they paint their army or smell bad.

Isn't it enough to just avoid playing against people who don't have painted armies or smell bad if that's what you want to do, I don't see any benefit in judging them other than to appease some petty superiority complex.

This thread has gotten weird.