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Has anyone worked the math on these against unknown opponents? I know ScatBikes are the rage, but without doing calculations it just feels like losing one shot to gain ap 2 on 6's might be better.

It's not worth it. You lose 25% of your shots for 20% of you wounds to ignore an armor save which most is only like a 18% damage increase at best and that's not including cover saves.

25% is more then 18% which which is why the scatter laser is better.

Got it.

There are specific opponents where the shuriken cannon is better, but in general, as noted, it's a pretty minor advantage.

It's fractionally better against targets with flak armour in the open or targets in terminator plate, but the difference is pretty minor, and as noted, cover saves will make most of that advantage disappear.

It's biggest advantage is against monstrous/gargantuan creatures - if you're needing a four or better to wound anyway, then you're ignoring the target's armour with a much higher proportion of your wounds.

The scatter laser is better in most other circumstances, and especially against light AV vehicles.

Also note that the Shuriken Cannon has a shorter range, which on an expensive, fairly fragile unit that doesn't want to get moustrapped into rapid fire range is not a trivial thing

For the odd thing that scatter lasers are not so good at, like the monstrous/gargantuan creatures you should probably take Warp Spiders or a WK.

@locarno24 - Actually no its not. Shuriken Cannons are only better against T7+ targets that don't get a cover or invul save.

The formation has a one turn shred attack, and Doom is more useful with shuriken cannons. Also, it's worth noting that the Farseer's offensive abilities typically have a range of 24", so if you're using shuriken cannons, that's the unit you stick him in.

Against a Riptide, 10 Scatbikes inflict 2,22 wound, 10 Shurbikes inflict 3,33 (not counting feel no pain or shred/re-rolls).

You can also give the scatter lasers rending with misfortune, if you need to.

Try here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/647751.page#7832371

Thanks for all the info.

It's an issue of range - the weapons are pretty close in terms of power - but + 12 range on the SL makes it auto include.

Once you put an army on the table, you'll find that some of the bike units always end up being closer than 24" from the enemy.
I've been running 2 units with scatter lasers and 1 unit with shurikens.
You'll usually find units that cannons do work better against, which is 2+, 3+ or 5+ save opponents, so it gives you 1 unit on point for every two supporting at greater range.

Go ahead and keep saying the scatter is better (it usually isn't), it just have more range. I want my opponents trying to gun for the scatter bikes at longer range than the statistically better bikes that are closer.

The difference between 36" and 24" range is quite huge. This is a major reason I really despise the assault cannon.

Martel732 wrote:
The difference between 36" and 24" range is quite huge. This is a major reason I really despise the assault cannon.

Pretty much this. The 36" range of the Scatter Laser puts the bikes out of range for the vast majority of weaponry in the game. Essentially, if the model didn't start out right next to you, it isn't going to get in range of you if you keep moving around. And since you are jetbikes, you keep moving around.

I first noticed this phenomenon when I came back in for 5th ed. For all the claims of Eldar not being powerful in 5th, they won a lot of games with scatterlaser spam in 5th in my play area.

Martel732 wrote:
I first noticed this phenomenon when I came back in for 5th ed. For all the claims of Eldar not being powerful in 5th, they won a lot of games with scatterlaser spam in 5th in my play area.

They weren't broken in 5ed, but they were still a solid codex (far away from bad)

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I first noticed this phenomenon when I came back in for 5th ed. For all the claims of Eldar not being powerful in 5th, they won a lot of games with scatterlaser spam in 5th in my play area.

They weren't broken in 5ed, but they were still a solid codex (far away from bad)

I would agree with this statement. But so many people on here act like they were gak in 5th. It took a lot of effort to beat them with the 5th ed BA book.

I think I'll just stick with scats unless taking a windrider formation.

The two options have almost the exact same lethality. The Scatter Laser is better against vehicles and very light infantry, where the AP difference doesn't matter but the volume of shots does. The Shuriken Cannon is better against 2+ save infantry, where the Shuriken special rule does matter (the extra shot pretty much cancels out the AP difference between the two against 5+ save targets).

So, for sheer effectiveness of shots, the two are just about the same. The Shred bonus from the formation slightly edging out the Scatter Laser.

However, the 12" difference in range means that a Scatter Laser equipped bike is more survivable. Most shooting in the game is at 24", so having a unit that can more reliably stay out of that range while remaining effective is far more survivable.

The extra range also means they can move to take objectives and still stay engaged with the enemy in situations where a Shuriken Cannon equipped bike couldn't. Again, that's game-winning moves, not just slight adjustments in quantity of models slain.

The Scatbike is definitely the better choice.

I agree, the arguments are pretty conclusive in my opinion.

Martel732 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I first noticed this phenomenon when I came back in for 5th ed. For all the claims of Eldar not being powerful in 5th, they won a lot of games with scatterlaser spam in 5th in my play area.

They weren't broken in 5ed, but they were still a solid codex (far away from bad)

I would agree with this statement. But so many people on here act like they were gak in 5th. It took a lot of effort to beat them with the 5th ed BA book.

What? I wrecked people in 5th with eldar - 6 WW with scat lasers a WL an avatar big foot council was the base of every army I made - literally smoked people. Even smoked supposed "OP" greyknights. Scatter lasers are amazing weapons. They win games.

You guys are forgetting the biggest advantage Shuricannons have over Scatters:

Shuricannons are still a good weapon choice, but not as good as Scatters. This means you can field all your bikes with Shuricannons, and not be TFG that everyone complains about.

Shuricannons allow you to have your wraithbone-cake & eat it too. This is what I plan to do.




-

My mathmatical analysis of scatbikes vs shubikes and old serpents showed a few interesting trends. Against most Toughness based models with a save of 5+ or better the shubike is equal or better than a scatbike for damage, ie 90%+ off all non vehicle models. The shubike is also vastly better at taking out GMC and MC models with a 3+ save or better. Scatbikes do have a range advantage and that can be very useful but it is only useful if you have few enough models to take advantage of it. Thus there isn't a clear overall winner only situational winners. The use of the windrider host also greatly changes this situation as the bikes are pure damage dealers then and shred with 15 bikes averages a dead wraithknight in a single shooting round. That is something scatbikes cannot even dream of.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Once you put an army on the table, you'll find that some of the bike units always end up being closer than 24" from the enemy.
I've been running 2 units with scatter lasers and 1 unit with shurikens.
You'll usually find units that cannons do work better against, which is 2+, 3+ or 5+ save opponents, so it gives you 1 unit on point for every two supporting at greater range.

Go ahead and keep saying the scatter is better (it usually isn't), it just have more range. I want my opponents trying to gun for the scatter bikes at longer range than the statistically better bikes that are closer.

A 2 shubike units and 4 scatbike units IMO is probably the most powerful way to play a full on 6 windrider units army. You are exactly right that if you have more than 3 bike units inevitably some of those units will have to be within 24" range. There is no way to avoid this on a 6'x4' board. People who talk about 20+ windrider model armies deployed on a board all 24"+ away from the opponent have obviously never actually deployed the units on a board or are exaggerating.

Martel732 wrote:The difference between 36" and 24" range is quite huge. This is a major reason I really despise the assault cannon.

You aren't wrong as long as you limit the windrider units to 4 or less, the opponent doesn't just take over your deployment zone, and your windrider units don't have a farseer in them that will need to close within range for psychic powers. So say if you are taking the 3 units of 3 scatbikes that is common in a lot of the "power" lists that are bouncing around all scatbikes is almost assuredly the best option. I could even see when a person takes 3 units of 5 scatbikes it being a good option to exclude shubikes. However anything more than 4 bike units it is probably a worse option simply due to the major advantage of 36" vs 24" range is going to be lost for at least a couple of the units.


BTW the strength of BA vs CWE back in 5ed was all the fast AV13 vehicles and DSing 1d6 scatter assault squads that could all charge from DS. It was brutal if the BA player had even moderately good luck. It was however true that max scatter walkers + guide + doom with some support from dire avengers was a very effective tournament build. Very boring to play and play against though.