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darkcloak wrote:
1: I did buy the old ASM kit. And for the 35 bucks I paid I was happy. Oh ignorance is bliss.

I wasn't comparing $35 to $98 though. I was comparing $80 to $98.

darkcloak wrote:
2: shameless GW fanboy attitudes do not a new kit make.

Well, you don't like them, which is your prerogative (and of course you shouldn't buy them). But it isn't being a "fanboy" to point out that they have posable legs, something never seen in space marines, scenic bases, totally new sculpts, new weapons, and even refreshed upper torsos. Plus the old Devastator box had fuzzy, crappy plastic.

So, no, I stand by what I said: the new kit is a huge improvement over the old one, and other than that hey represent the same unit in 40k, they are nothing alike each other.

Anyways, I didn't mean it as a personal attack. I just didn't think you would have liked the old kit for $80 any more than the new kit for $98 (tell me if I'm wrong), and I wholeheartedly disagree with you that the new kit is just a rebadge of the old one. I don't know what your rant was about the upgrade sprues; it really made no sense. They are a good part, they're decently priced relative to the old shoulder pads, and they augment, not replace, chapter-specific kits, anything from ravenwing command to longfangs.

And, I don't see how making a small donation to Dakka has anything to do with anything at all >.<




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darkcloak wrote:
I'm sorry if I come across a a total jerk, its because I am. I'm just tired of having neckbeards tear me a new one and all but call me stupid simply because I don't wave the flag like a good consumer.

People have a choice ya know. And if some of us are disgusted by the way our hobby is being marginalized in the name of profits then I'm quite sure we are allowed to voice that.

Even the flag wavers have a right to defend their hallowed beliefs, Emprah protects, and you know what? Good for you for coming out and defending something you love!

Just don't be surprised when someone decides to snap at you because they have an equally powerful, but opposite, conviction.

You have every right to, and if I made it feel like a personal attack, I'm sorry, because that's not what I intended.

I still think the new kit is a huge improvement over the old one though, and the price increase of about $9 -- which is like, $6.75 with a "good" 25% discount -- is well worth the difference in product.

Finally, Darkcloak, I am genuinely sorry that you've been priced out of a game or hobby that you enjoy. -- off to supper for me, so that's the last of it for a little bit, from me

 Talys wrote:
On the other hand, if I'm picking up boxes for $80... bleh, f*ck it, I'm already past the point of no return. It's already so high that if I could buy that without feeling bad, it wouldn't matter if they were $100. I guess that's what I mean

I can understand how you personally might feel like that, though I don't think you can really assume that attitude of others. A 20% price increase is still a 20% price increase and there will be people at each price level level that think 20% more is the difference between acceptable and over the top.

I plan on buying more of the old Assault squads before they disappear. The increase from $33 to $41 for five figures is ugh. I do like the scenic bases though. Maybe there are some other interesting bits but I don't like them enough to see a difference.

I think that Marine prices like these would be justifiable if they'd implement my Marine stats idea.

LeperColony wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Talys wrote:
1. If you think that $98 for 10 models is expensive, you would have thought $80 for 10 models was expensive before. I doubt you would have bought that one either.

Do you work for GW's marketing team?

It's attitudes like that which have led to GW's slow decline over the years. "If there were paying X they'll be fine paying 20% more than X". Yeah, until they aren't and you lose a bunch of customers, lol.

This ^

GW is slowly pricing people out of the game. Remember when they swapped from pewter to "keep costs down?" I started playing this game in the early 90's, when I was a kid. With allowance and odd jobs, I could scrape together enough to play the game. But now I have no idea how kids, GW's increasingly targeted audience, are supposed to play this.

That being said, on GW's relative scale, the new Assault Squad box doesn't seem that bad.

Slowly? They're literally boosting their prices ten times faster than inflation. The thing that drives me crazy is that they already offer the premium service in the form of Forge World. That's where they get high-paying customers who don't care about price. But the base GW is completely missing the point. It should be cheap and easy to get people involved in 40k. There should be a reasonably priced Necromunda kit with some revision of the original rules so that it's easy to get people to buy into the hobby. Then you have Kill Team, some basic army boxes, and you build out from there. Let cheap hobbyists buy and play their way, let splurge hobbyists do it their way.

But now, they've moved what is probably the second or third thing that a prospective gamer is going to click into a crazy price range. $82 for ten guys? For something that won't even be enough to actually get started and play the game? That was how much the Mordheim starter kit cost my brother and I in high school, which came with 20 models, the rules (including army lists, core rules, and campaign elements), cardstock terrain, dice, and measuring sticks. A set that you could literally put onto the table and play the actual game. How on earth is anyone supposed to engage a potential gamer with this? Everyone looks at Space Marines first, and an $82 price tag for ten models is ridiculous.

 Talys wrote:

LeperColony wrote:
GW is slowly pricing people out of the game. Remember when they swapped from pewter to "keep costs down?" I started playing this game in the early 90's, when I was a kid. With allowance and odd jobs, I could scrape together enough to play the game. But now I have no idea how kids, GW's increasingly targeted audience, are supposed to play this.

That being said, on GW's relative scale, the new Assault Squad box doesn't seem that bad.

While I don't disagree with your hypothesis, would you actually want to go back to pewter (or, going further back, lead) miniatures?

I love going back and painting the odd metal mini once in a while (or chip away at my PP collection). It's very nostalgic, they take no time to clean up and you can jump right into painting. Then I remember all the reasons that I love plastic miniatures LOL.

A return to metals would probably be superior in certain limited cases, for instance highly detailed single models, but in general I definitely don't advocate a return to them. My point was more that GW's move to Finecast and plastics was supposedly motivated by a desire to control costs, but massive price increases came anyway.

Of course, it's not as if GW were just slapping higher prices on the same junk. Each time new sets come out, they look great, which is why older models, on the whole, do such a poor job of holding their value. The newer stuff is just plain better.

The problem is GW's pricing strategy can basically be boiled down to "gouge the consumer." Price increases are common and sharp. Entry level costs are also rising at a troubling rate. It's $165 for the basic rules set. And another $98 for a codex. You're looking at over US $250 (before tax) before you've got a single model (though you can get the rules cheaper if you get a starter set, assuming you want those models or are willing to go through the trouble of selling them at a loss). Releases are divided unnecessarily (Adeptus Mechanicus, anyone?) simply to sell another book.

While PP and GW may have comparable prices on a per model basis, the fact that you need much, much fewer to play Hordemachine is significant. Trying to convince someone to try 40k these days is only viable because you can pick up armies for reasonable prices on secondary markets.

GW just keeps rising prices and rising prices, and then wonders why they are posting record drops in profitability. They aren't the only game in town anymore, they can't keep charging like they are forever.

Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion. Let's do it politely with a thought for the feelings of other users of the site.

I purchased more than 300 points of infinity models (11+ models, one large one the rest normal sized) for less than cost of 10 of these Assault Marines. 166 NZD for these are insane.

These assault marines are worth next to nothing in 40k terms. In my experience they die like flies as well.

For Bolt action I can get 48 multi part plastic jinfantry, some metal dudes, 2 support guns and a tank for 20 dollars less (144 NZD). Plus that Bolt Action set is more than enough to play a game with.

I don't understand how anybody can buy this.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I purchased more than 300 points of infinity models (11+ models, one large one the rest normal sized) for less than cost of 10 of these Assault Marines. 166 NZD for these are insane.

These assault marines are worth next to nothing in 40k terms. In my experience they die like flies as well.

For Bolt action I can get 48 multi part plastic jinfantry, some metal dudes, 2 support guns and a tank for 20 dollars less (144 NZD). Plus that Bolt Action set is more than enough to play a game with.

I don't understand how anybody can buy this.

Well, some people are less price sensitive than others, either due to means or motivation or both. For me personally 40k is an affordable hobby, but expensive for what it is. The bigger issue for me is that I increasingly no longer really feel like GW values me as a customer, or that as a company it has the kind of practices and philosophy I'd want to support. Right now, 40k has a lot of sentimental and emotional value to me, on account of having played it for so long and having enjoyed good times with good friends, some of whom I don't really see anymore. But ultimately that will only carry me through so many price gouges.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I purchased more than 300 points of infinity models (11+ models, one large one the rest normal sized) for less than cost of 10 of these Assault Marines. 166 NZD for these are insane.

These assault marines are worth next to nothing in 40k terms. In my experience they die like flies as well.

For Bolt action I can get 48 multi part plastic jinfantry, some metal dudes, 2 support guns and a tank for 20 dollars less (144 NZD). Plus that Bolt Action set is more than enough to play a game with.

I don't understand how anybody can buy this.

People love space marines. So much so, they will pay anything and coo over the smallest of changes to the models as a big thing. That's why they buy them.

 aprilmanha wrote:
Ahh Thanks GW Every time I start to think PP is a bit pricey for its units you come along and show that by comparison they are nice and cheap

You should look at the stuff from Corvus Belli then.. I made a tournament legal power army for less than what I paid for the Cadian Defence Force box. The rules, templates and even terrain is free online. Lol.

I started playing in 3rd edition. I bought a box of 10 Tactical Marines for 25.00 USD and a metal Librarian with an axe for 7.50 USD from my local Games Workshop, and 3 pots of paint (Snot Green, Boltgun Metal, and Dwarven Bronze) for 7.50 USD. Then I went to Walmart and bought a can of black spraypaint and a little thing of superglue for probably under 5.00 USD. That was enough to play! Less than 50 bucks.

I still love this game through all GW's stupid marketing and balance decisions because it's fun to play with my friends. I didn't complain about Allies shenangans, not even Taudar. But the direction they're going now blows my mind entirely. Strength "D" and formations of formations. Formations are neat but that's not how I want to play. I don't want to use the list the company makes, I want to make my own list with the units I think are cool and play it the way I think is fun. If it ever gets to the point where I can't make a decently competitive list at 1500-2000 pts just using one Codex and the old-as-dirt Force Org chart, that'll probably be the end of my interest in the tabletop hobby.

 Zewrath wrote:

 aprilmanha wrote:
Ahh Thanks GW Every time I start to think PP is a bit pricey for its units you come along and show that by comparison they are nice and cheap

You should look at the stuff from Corvus Belli then.. I made a tournament legal power army for less than what I paid for the Cadian Defence Force box. The rules, templates and even terrain is free online. Lol.

I made a tourney legal horde army for Infinity and got all the rules for it* for about the same price as the 40k core rulebook. Thanks to GWs price gouging in Australia I can get into most games with average sized armies and rules for less than just the required rules for a GW game.


*since they are free online

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 aprilmanha wrote:
Ahh Thanks GW Every time I start to think PP is a bit pricey for its units you come along and show that by comparison they are nice and cheap

You should look at the stuff from Corvus Belli then.. I made a tournament legal power army for less than what I paid for the Cadian Defence Force box. The rules, templates and even terrain is free online. Lol.

I made a tourney legal horde army for Infinity and got all the rules for it* for about the same price as the 40k core rulebook. Thanks to GWs price gouging in Australia I can get into most games with average sized armies and rules for less than just the required rules for a GW game.


*since they are free online

I just checked GW's price for the rulebook in Australian currency... I paid 2$ more for the Cadian Defence Force box at an online retailer than your full price rulebook! That's so grotesque that it's not even funny...


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Also, my entire Nomad Sectorial Army have custom resin bases from Micro Art Studios, which still made the army cost less than the Cadian Defence Force box.

I wonder how GW makes people buy those, and unless they give them some sort of crazy rules in the sm codex , I can't imagine what they were thinking. That much for a unit that is never taken in marine armies, when bikes are clearly a superior choice?They betterl do auto melta bomb attacks on charge or something else crazy. But then what about all those BA players with their assault marines that got nerfed?

GW sells policy seems to be harder to understand then cabala.

I mean for the cost of adding something "new" to my IG, I can buy an infinity army and starting an army from scratch is as much as 2-3 armies with totaly different play styles.

As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.

LeperColony wrote:
As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.

I can imagine season passes for army supplements becoming a real thing.

LeperColony wrote:
As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.

Care to elaborate on that? I can't really think of many, if any, exclusive models that very few people have due to limited quantity that also happens to break the tournaments and regular games.

 Fezman wrote:

LeperColony wrote:
As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.

I can imagine season passes for army supplements becoming a real thing.

Nah, at this rate you only get one or two seasons and then everything is obsolete. They'd make more money selling lifetime passes for things that don't get updated as editions change.

Isn't the 10 man assault squad on the website is just 2 of the 5 man boxes?

I'll agree, why are they the same cost as the far more impressive vanguard kit and twice as expensive per model than the regular Tac squad?

Taffy17 wrote:
Isn't the 10 man assault squad on the website is just 2 of the 5 man boxes?

I'll agree, why are they the same cost as the far more impressive vanguard kit and twice as expensive per model than the regular Tac squad?

I believe it is but the fact it is there as a one click bundle makes it so much more obvious as to how much you're expected to pay for a full squad of a pretty generic and standard trooper.

 Zewrath wrote:

LeperColony wrote:
As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.

Care to elaborate on that? I can't really think of many, if any, exclusive models that very few people have due to limited quantity that also happens to break the tournaments and regular games.

I think Leper means the exclusive formations that you can only (legally) get buying a huge bundle of models direct from GW, like this one: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Cohort-Mechanicus-Rules-Bundle and the 5 knight bundle a week or so ago.

Did many people actually want Assault Marines? I know the old kit had its problems and the new one is clearly nicer, but its Assault Marines, doesn't every Marine player have a load of these already? It's not like the new Devastators where they have added in Grav so there is a reason to buy the new boxes?

 Zewrath wrote:

LeperColony wrote:
As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.

Care to elaborate on that? I can't really think of many, if any, exclusive models that very few people have due to limited quantity that also happens to break the tournaments and regular games.

It's not the models that are exclusive, it's the rules. http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Cohort-Mechanicus-Rules-Bundle

There's one for Imperial Knights too (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Exalted-Court-House-Terryn-Rules-Bundle) and, doubtless, more are coming.

And people think FW is bad because the rules are more complicated to acquire? xD

 Fezman wrote:

LeperColony wrote:
As insulting as GW's pricing is, a much larger problem to me is their move towards pay-to-win exclusives. Frankly I stunned the community is accepting things like exclusive rules.

I can imagine season passes for army supplements becoming a real thing.

You joke, but a move to a subscription based rules delivery format makes some sense, from a financial standpoint. Right now, the cost to acquire all the current rules well exceeds $1,000 (I haven't done the math, but it wouldn't surprise me if it approached $2,000). The sheer absurdity of this fact leads to two natural, though not necessarily inevitable results.

First, pirating becomes more common. Of course, there will always be some piracy, but as we're seeing with other formats (music, video, games), there's a large segment of the consumer base that will pay a relatively modest amount for legitimate access.

Second, the number of people who purchase rules they don't need for their own armies diminishes. Back when codices were $20-30, you could acquire all the rules to every army in the game for a few hundred bucks. That's not nothing, but it's not completely unreasonable, and many people did it. I was one. But I can't see buying everything at the current prices.

By moving to a subscription model for electronic copies (say $10-15/month), both GW and the players would benefit. Exposing players to new armies can only increase sales, as people find things they otherwise would never have encountered. At the same time, the reduced price should result in much greater adoption, leading to more sales. Whether the increased sales makes up for the price reduction I'm not sure, but with a subscription model you collect on an ongoing basis. With books, it's one and done (until the next one).

LeperColony wrote:
A return to metals would probably be superior in certain limited cases, for instance highly detailed single models, but in general I definitely don't advocate a return to them. My point was more that GW's move to Finecast and plastics was supposedly motivated by a desire to control costs, but massive price increases came anyway.

Of course, it's not as if GW were just slapping higher prices on the same junk. Each time new sets come out, they look great, which is why older models, on the whole, do such a poor job of holding their value. The newer stuff is just plain better.

The move from metal to plastic/finecast was supposed to lower prices and, in the case of Finecast, improve the quality of the material used.

The truth is, my metal dark elf corsairs, executioners and black guard came in boxes of 10 for 25€ back when I bought them, around 10-12 years ago. All of those units were eventually moved to plastic, and the only ones which got cheaper were the corsairs, which at 21€ still today are so cheap by GW standards that they almost look like an anachronism from a bygone era. The others? 40€ the 10-man box.

And the "newer stuff is better" argument clearly does not work with them, as I consider the 6th edition metal models to be vastly superior to the plastic ones that came to replace them.

 Korinov wrote:
The move from metal to plastic/finecast was supposed to lower prices and, in the case of Finecast, improve the quality of the material used.

The truth is, the move from metal to plastic was to stabilize costs, because the price of metal was a little bit of a roller coaster. It wasn't really to lower prices in the long term (whatever GW initially claimed).

 Korinov wrote:
And the "newer stuff is better" argument clearly does not work with them, as I consider the 6th edition metal models to be vastly superior to the plastic ones that came to replace them.

A lot of the new kits are a lot better than the old metal models, though. Not every single one, but there are some great examples -- take the Death Jester. Besides, it's nice to have everything in plastic now, although I am always nostalgic about metal and like painting them once in a while. Oh, well, that's why we have Infinity

If the intention was to stabilize costs, I guess switching to plastic (an oil-dependant product) wasn't the best of ideas then.

As much as I love metal minis, I acknowledge plastic has its advantages. Less weight, easy to work with, etc. Although to be honest white metal is pretty user-friendly too when it comes to modelling.

Also, I don't really know if it has something to do with mould crafting, but I find metal minis to usually have more... "depth", "personality". Dunno how to express it, really. They tend to be more "tridimensional" from my point of view. Although again, I have to acknowledge some plastic kits produced in recent years have improved massively my general opinion on plastics (raptors/warp talons :3).

As others have pointed out these models just keep getting more and more expensive. Shame we can't get a price to quality + option ration more similar to that of the Stormboyz or Nobz box. $25 U.S. for 5 models with really good sculpt quality, lots of wargear, and plenty of customization options. I fear what a new boyz box will be like (11 for 50 most likely).

The upgrade sprue is highway robbery when your paying $13 for 18 pieces of plastic (10 being shoulders) when a tact squad cost $40 and has 179 pieces.

Edited due to the iphone's auto correct being as terrible as a power klaw in the hands of a grot.

 Korinov wrote:
If the intention was to stabilize costs, I guess switching to plastic (an oil-dependant product) wasn't the best of ideas then.

As much as I love metal minis, I acknowledge plastic has its advantages. Less weight, easy to work with, etc. Although to be honest white metal is pretty user-friendly too when it comes to modelling.

Also, I don't really know if it has something to do with mould crafting, but I find metal minis to usually have more... "depth", "personality". Dunno how to express it, really. They tend to be more "tridimensional" from my point of view. Although again, I have to acknowledge some plastic kits produced in recent years have improved massively my general opinion on plastics (raptors/warp talons :3).

Well, the price of plastic is so small that the fluctuations in oil price have no real bearing on the cost of production. I mean, go to a dollar store, and look at how much plastic you can get for $1. And those dollar stores are selling the plastic containers for orders of magnitude more than their production cost.

The problem with metal isn't so much the material, it's that metal models don't use a lot of pieces, because it's impractical to assemble little fidly parts that are metal, whereas modern resin or plastic models can have tons of pieces. This gets rid of undercuts (the areas where a mold can't get to, so you have dead space) and allow for models that can be rotated in all axis that are viewed correctly, I just took this picture comparing Dominus to Bradigus, as a comparison of two $35-ish models. The Bradigus model illustrates the limitations of metal (by the way, I love both models).



A practical problem of wargaming with metal gaming pieces is just that as they get larger and have more pieces, they just fall apart, even when you pin them all to death. For the same reasons, they transport really badly, and it's just no fun to be supergluing stuff during your turn or before setup.